Basically, that says it all. How do you deal with players who want to play ECL races when you start a campaign at first level? Do you use the system detailed in Player's guide to Faerun or do you have other systems?
Just curious about how other people do it.
Well I've never seen the Player's Guide to Faerun, but my attitude is that I generally allow players to start with a +1 LA race at first level if they want. If they're a little overpowered at first level, they're neutralized when everyone else reaches second. It really is lame to watch everyone else level up while you're thinking 'only 2,000 more to go...'
If somebody's going to play a race at a level below it's full ECL, the simplest thing to do (other than tell them to find another race, which isn't my style,) is to work with them to make a progression of racial abilities. They call them monster classes, but I think it's a misnomer because race and class should be separate decisions.
"Hey, what do you do for a living?" "I'm an elf." "No, I mean what do you do?" "What are you talking about? I'm an Elf. That's what I do!"
The weak point in the monsters of Faerun book or using the standard rules provided in the core books is that you can end up with a player who is far too powerful for the encounters they are likely to face and of course other PCs could get unhappy if one player is hogging the spotlight. Of even more concern might be that every player suddenly wanted to do the same thing and you ended up trying to DM for a party that's more like a monstrous zoo on the move.
There really is not much that penalizes players for taking races with level adjustments. Especially when using the system described in the Faerun book. Sure eventually normal characters would catch up but that does not really deal with the here and know.
You might use the system described in savage species which essentially amounts to taking the race and dividing it all its abilities up and creating racial levels that the player must take before getting access to some of its abilities. By this method you will preserve play balance. This is a good system with the problem being that some feeling of realism is sacrificed by a Thri-Kreen getting its benefits only over the space of several levels.
If you are an evil DM, such as myself, and the likely number of sessions your players will go without someone suffering a permanent fatality can be counted on the fingers of one hand, then you can simply introduce new races as playable character races as the party level becomes appropriate for their level adjustment. This is what I do.
If you're playing something with a level adjustment and want to start at 1st level, the best way is probably to use a Savage Species style monster class progression. You'd have to make your own up if there isn't already one. Look up Savage Species. There are also a series of Savage Progressions articles on the WotC website, and I think there might be a few in past issues of Dragon magazine.
Monster classes are basically the only way to play monsters or templates from level one. With monsters, say the ogre at 4HD and +2 level adjustment, you have to take six levels in "ogre" before you can start levelling in fighter. (If one doesn't exist for the creature you want, your DM has extra work on his hands writing one.) With templates, it's simply a matter of starting without the template and acquiring it later one level at a time.
Did you have any specific race or template in mind?
With monsters, say the ogre at 4HD and +2 level adjustment, you have to take six levels in "ogre" before you can start levelling in fighter.
What if, after the ogre attains all six racial levels, he has no fighter present from which to mentor from (or who is willing to mentor an ogre)? Is the ogre stuck at level 6 until he can convince a humanoid with class levels to train him or is it assumed that the ogre has been training to eventually become a true fighter all along?
What if, after the ogre attains all six racial levels, he has no fighter present from which to mentor from (or who is willing to mentor an ogre)? Is the ogre stuck at level 6 until he can convince a humanoid with class levels to train him or is it assumed that the ogre has been training to eventually become a true fighter all along?
By the letter of the rules no trainer of any kind is needed to transform onself into a class. If the Ogre wants he can be a mage - spell book falls from the sky or something and our Ogre knows two first level spells plus his intelligence modifier as well as some 0 level ones.
Your DM may choose to make house rules on this sort of thing however.
The Savage Species and Players Guide to Faerune both have excellent ways of implementing ECL's. Another way that i have seen (don't remember what resource I picked it up from, perhaps Dungeon Magazine) is to allow the player to create the +1 or greater ECL character and penalize their d20 rolls (all of them) by the total of their HD and Level Adjustment. Let them earn exp just like everyone else (starting at 0 and going to 1000, then to 3000 etc.). When then gain a level, deduct one point from their penalties until they are at zero penalties. Then they are even level with their ECL and can gain class levels. I have tried this a few times and it seems to go pretty smoothly. I had a player create a Half-Red-Dragon-Treant (sounds wierd, but we had story reasons for it) which put him at a -5 or -6 penalty to his d20 rolls. We played through 8th level from 1st level and the character didnt hog the spotlight or overpower the encounters. Try it out a few times, you'll be glad you did.
If the Ogre wants he can be a mage - spell book falls from the sky or something and our Ogre knows two first level spells plus his intelligence modifier as well as some 0 level ones.
Boccob's tears! Spellbooks are raining upon us! Boccob is crying on us! OW!! That must've been an Raistlin's!
Your DM may choose to make house rules on this sort of thing however.
Of course I know that the letter of the law doesn't require a mentor/trainer, but I'm interested in the spirit. I was just wondering whether anyone considers it reasonable to play an ogre from level one that had somehow trained from day 1 to be a fighter (though gaining none of its advantages until level 7); perhaps this explains why the ogre is adventuring in the first place...
I use a couple methods of dealing with them.
If it's a race with just a LA of 1, I'll let them start with the rest of the group, but they'll essentially be 'in debt'. They won't be able take their second class level until they reach L3. This seems to work fairly well, since the extra abilities tend to be countered by the lower survivability they suffer through 2nd level.
I also let them buy off their level adjustment as per the rules in the Unearthed Arcana.
For higher LA/ECL characters, I have them use a progression as in Savage Species, since ECL +2 and higher critters are /too/ extraordinary to give them their full suite of abilities all up front.
Creatures with monster HD, however, always use a savage progression.
What about level adjustment of +5 or more? I've got a player really itching to be a Mindflayer Psion (+7 LA) but obviously he'll more than outshine most classes at 1st level. I don't wanna kill his rolls or hobble him in any way. Maybe WOTC's Save My Game article has something on the subject.
Basically, that says it all. How do you deal with players who want to play ECL races when you start a campaign at first level? Do you use the system detailed in Player's guide to Faerun or do you have other systems?
I use a system similar to the Savage Species/Player's Guide to Faerun system.
There's a WOTC article on the subject.
It's too bad they didn't add a mindflayer template in there too. I may just open the floodgates and let players be nearly anything. A party of mindflayers, rakkashas, beholders, and vampires snuffing the life out of the peasantry might be fun.
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The Savage Species and Players Guide to Faerune both have excellent ways of implementing ECL's. Another way that i have seen (don't remember what resource I picked it up from, perhaps Dungeon Magazine) is to allow the player to create the +1 or greater ECL character and penalize their d20 rolls (all of them) by the total of their HD and Level Adjustment. Let them earn exp just like everyone else (starting at 0 and going to 1000, then to 3000 etc.). When then gain a level, deduct one point from their penalties until they are at zero penalties.
I remember that article as well, and implemented it on a recent game. I had one character use the "Savage Species" progression because she wanted to play an Avoral, but another player chose a campaign-specific cambion race with an ECL. I included the penalty to d20 rolls to also be a penalty to hit points (treating it more or less as pseudo-negative levels). The result wasn't too bad, though as the game ended a little more combat-intensive than other campaigns the hp penalty slowed down the "fighter-type" as her hp didn't match her attitude. (as an aside, though, that allowed for a lot of funny situations, as well as prompted some creative roleplaying amongst the group). I tell ya, once that character reached their second hit die, the player was so happy at levelling .... but overall, I liked the way the penalty idea worked out, and will make use of it in the future.
My current game has an Ogre/Fighter. We used the Savage Species progression (pretty much), and started him off as a kid. In fact he thought he was a Dwarf (and still does, kind of, he was raised by dwarves from birth, some kind of mix-up). Anyway, we didn't find the need for any kind of training or other explanation for him getting Fighter levels - once he "grew up", he finally started to hit his straps as far as combat abilities go.
I admit that some powers, like Spell Resistance, are probably too powerful to give away at first level, but I personally prefer to just let the player "pay off" the debt in XP. I can't see penalizing a player on every roll they make for the first couple of levels, especially because at those low levels, the difference between success and failure is usually just 1 or 2 points.
What I think may be better is a more indiviualized approach. If a player is choosing a race for some obvious physical advantage, simply stagger the advantage through the first couple of "non-levels." (i.e. a race that has a +6 STR and a +3 LA, give the character +2 STR every time he earns a level.)Of necessity, this would be on a case by case basis. Some powers can be given right away depending on the nature of the ability. Does anyone really care that a svirfneblin has continuous non-detection for the first 5 or 6 levels?
What about level adjustment of +5 or more? I've got a player really itching to be a Mindflayer Psion (+7 LA) but obviously he'll more than outshine most classes at 1st level. I don't wanna kill his rolls or hobble him in any way. Maybe WOTC's Save My Game article has something on the subject.
Races like Drow and Assimar are in the Level Adjusted Races article in Savage Progressions. Not mindflayers however...
Because I tried to use a mindflayer myself, I'll warn you: it takes 15 levels before you can finally take a class level, because the mindflayer has the +7 LA and 8 Racial HD. That's a long time to go without making fun choices...
There is the whole new "Racial Level" system introduced in the Complete Psionic. Then a character from a race with a LA gets full abilities in his/her class at first level and partial racial abilities. The acquistion of class levels and racial abilities are offset against each other throughout the progression.
I dunno if this was a one shot idea which has died stillborn, or its going to be "new canon" like Class Feature substitution. It did not make an appearance in Fiendish Codex.
This seemed like a really excellent solution. Especially for races with a low LA, like aasimar,tieflings, half-ogres....
I think it looks like it breaks down if the LA is too high.
My current game has an Ogre/Fighter. We used the Savage Species progression (pretty much), and started him off as a kid. In fact he thought he was a Dwarf (and still does, kind of, he was raised by dwarves from birth, some kind of mix-up). Anyway, we didn't find the need for any kind of training or other explanation for him getting Fighter levels - once he "grew up", he finally started to hit his straps as far as combat abilities go.
I like the idea of characters following racial progressions being "kids" but it seems like it would run smack into the verisimilitude wall. Level progression is SO FAST in the system as written. Do ogres/dragons/etc. physically mature faster simply because they go out and test themselves against the rigors of a harsh and cruel world?
Also, check out the Iron Fisted Gm thread; has info and discussion related to this topic.
What about level adjustment of +5 or more? I've got a player really itching to be a Mindflayer Psion (+7 LA) but obviously he'll more than outshine most classes at 1st level. I don't wanna kill his rolls or hobble him in any way. Maybe WOTC's Save My Game article has something on the subject.
Ooh, I'm a little mixed here.
First, a player that wants to play something so powerful doesn't sit well with me. This person really isn't on the same page with those wanting a first-level campaign.
On the other hand, are there more players wanting exotic choices like this? Maybe a different campaign with different starting levels?
Regards,
Jack
My husband is playing a half-dragon in my Shackled City campaign that just started. We're using the racial levels from Races of the Dragon for him... the party just hit level 2, and not getting a HD at 2nd level can really suck. That said, he certainly isn't overwhelming the balance of power in any noticable way.
- Ashavan
There is another option to people wanting to play ECL +1 characters - start the game at 2nd level. Have the players explain how they earned their first level through backstory and start the game.
In general, I tend to let my players do this just because that makes for a better survivability at low levels and lets the Wizard player do more than one or two spells a day (which are usually Mage Armor and Magic Missile - whooptiedoo). This means the characters tend to be a bit overpowered for the first part of any low-level campaign, but then equal out at the end as XP is granted that would have made them Level 2 to begin with. After that, those first 1,000xp tend not to matter all that much.
Besides, it's more fun to throw more badguys at 2nd level. 6 goblins might be a challenge for 1st level guys, but at 2nd? It's a good fight, AND you can feel free to throw in a Gobbo with a level just for entertainment (and for a better challenge!).