My players are I were having a discussion last night about paladin and monk orders in 3.x.
My attitude regarding the various orders are that they all have the same basic package, although certain prestige classes, substitution levels, or feats were available to different groups.
The part in contention is which deities were able to have paladins. My view has been that if the doctrine of the church does not violate the paladin's code, then a paladin order could exist for the church (FR examples would be Sune - a CG good deity with a LG order of paladins). The players are of the opinion that only good deities could possess paladin orders (e.g., Wee Jas could not have an order of paladins).
What's the general consensus? I'm unable to find anything in the books other than the standard paladin code of conduct. I'm tempted to write up a Class Act on it, but I don't know if this has been addressed before now.
I don't know if this is what you're after, but Dragon 310 has variant paladins of the other good and neutral alignments. Dragon 312 has the evil paladin variants. Good stuff there. I had a player who was a chaotic evil anti-paladin in an evil campaign I ran a few years ago.
M@
I have a hard time seeing a paladin order coming from any chaotic or nongood deity. Chaos cannot be abided because the paladins code of conduct is so ridgid I don't think that the code and church doctrine could be compatable. Nongood is even more improbable in my opinion. A paladin is SUPER DUPER good, he cannot associate in the least bit with evil creatures. So I can't see a paladin order in a church that will accept evil followers. In my campaigns it's either NG or LG or no paladin order.
I'm not sure if I'm remebering right but I believe there is some hard rules in the PHB under the desciption chapter, because I remember St. Cuthbert (uber LN god) was the exception to the rule and could have paladins even though he is not good. (which I overruled Cuthbert has no paladins in my world)
All just MHO
I have a hard time seeing a paladin order coming from any chaotic or nongood deity. Chaos cannot be abided because the paladins code of conduct is so ridgid I don't think that the code and church doctrine could be compatable. Nongood is even more improbable in my opinion. A paladin is SUPER DUPER good, he cannot associate in the least bit with evil creatures. So I can't see a paladin order in a church that will accept evil followers. In my campaigns it's either NG or LG or no paladin order.
I'm not sure if I'm remebering right but I believe there is some hard rules in the PHB under the desciption chapter, because I remember St. Cuthbert (uber LN god) was the exception to the rule and could have paladins even though he is not good. (which I overruled Cuthbert has no paladins in my world)All just MHO
True, and I can see your point, but a paladin order would (at least in the real world) be a distinct political entity seperate from the main body of the church - famous examples are the Templars and the Hospitalers. They have different requirements and different traditions, but follow the precepts of their deity.
In the books, St. Cuthbert does specifically allow paladins and he is Lawful Neutral. In FR, there are quite a few orders (Heroes of Valor, and various prestige classes) that allow you to play a paladin (or paladin-esque) character for various deities. Sune is a Chaotic Good deity that allows paladins, for example, and Lathander is a Neutral Good deity that allows them. In these examples, the paladins are Lawful Good.
In non-specific campaign settings, however, there is nothing under the paladin class that states that a paladin cannot worship a non-good deity. The only restrictions of paladins are:
- They must be of Lawful Good alignment.
- They must follow the code of conduct for a paladin.
- If they multiclass to another class, they cannot regain levels as a paladin (subject to certain classes and feats).
If a deity's doctrine does not violate the paladin's code of conduct (which obviously disallows evil deities and quite a few chaotic ones), what rule prevents a paladin from following that deity?
Something that has always struck me as a bit odd is that only the 'Lawful Good' dieties have a Paladin. Well, lets say the ordered dieties. (As in previous post, other alignments do offer options in some cases)
But what of the chaotics, the evils? I don't think a paladin exactly fits, or a slight variation of one. (Knights of Takhisis(no I can't spell) from Dragonlance as an example of an attempt at doing so.) Why should only the 'good' gods have access to 'holy warriors' that are granted special abilities? Why do gods like Hextor not have followers who fill the same roles as a Paladin does for Pelor? Traditionally I have believed that the evil gods are more prone to grant power to their mortal followers and yet in this area they seem to be lacking.
I'm not saying that all gods should have Paladins, but there really should be a 'chosen warrior' type class to go along with the various religions. The only reason I can see that the 'Good' get them adn the 'Evil' do not is the tendency to show a bias towards good, happy things in D&D.
Blubber.
P.S. My apologies for any rambling or hideous mispellings. I'm home sick and medicated, so my brain is kinda iffy.
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In Unearthed Arcana there are three variant Paladin orders based on different alignment, and suggestions for making others.
On the subject of Paladins serving religious orders, as far as I can interpret Lawful Good Paladins could serve any deity.
As Lawful aligned beings they follow either a personal cod or a set formula of laws (church doctrine *wink,wink*), as good beings they would put the well being of others (in the order) or their patron deity above their own .
Hope this is helpfull...just one Dopplegangers opinion..:|
I have a hard time seeing a paladin order coming from any chaotic or nongood deity. Chaos cannot be abided because the paladins code of conduct is so ridgid I don't think that the code and church doctrine could be compatable. Nongood is even more improbable in my opinion. A paladin is SUPER DUPER good
I've always seen paladins as being more Lawful than Good (though they have to be both) -- honor first, that kind of thing. To each their own, I suppose.
Jack
Apparently there is no rule so it is up to the DM. I say that as a paladin is uber lawful and cannot associate with evil then they would not follow a god with no respect for order and discipline , and they would not belong to a church that accepted evil members.
I would guess that they left it open to allow the DM more freedom to build the campaign, I say just do what feels right to you.
I remember reading a post on these very boards about a paladin character that one person played just to show his co-players that they didn't have to all be stuck up, rigid jerks. He was quite the prankster in personal affairs, but dead serious when on a mission from his order. That's fine with me. No one can be perfect all the time. You crack. Paladins are more strict than other people, but that doesn't mean they can't have fun or be fun to play. I don't like it when a DM treats the paladin's code as some type of penalizing balancing factor that has to be constantly reinforced. The class isn't that powerful to begin with compared to many others. I think of the code as a roleplaying opportunity, not something the party or player should suffer for, and keep that in my mind when designing adventures and a paladin is present in the party.
As far as who they can worship, and LN, LG, or NG deity, since I rule they get their power from real gods, FR style (the location of my current campaign anyway), not abstracts. Sune is an exception. I ruled, in my previous campaigns, that Cuthbert and Wee Jas were sort of opposite LNs. Wee Jas's clerics all rebuke undead and cast inlfict spells, while Cuthbert's cast cure and turn undead.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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As far as who they can worship, and LN, LG, or NG deity, since I rule they get their power from real gods, FR style (the location of my current campaign anyway), not abstracts. Sune is an exception. I ruled, in my previous campaigns, that Cuthbert and Wee Jas were sort of opposite LNs. Wee Jas's clerics all rebuke undead and cast inlfict spells, while Cuthbert's cast cure and turn undead.
I agree with what Saern said. Clerics have to be within one alignment step of their gods, so I can't imagine why paladins of a particular god wouldn't follow that same rule. The Wee Jas/Cuthbert analysis is excellent.
I can't see a chaotic good god having paladins any more than I can see a lawful evil god having them, but the FR is a big crazy world.
What I do not like is when someone thinks lawful good means stuck up tight arse for laws. I say a paladin's duty is always good before law. Paladins would not stand by a law that harms the people and would see to it that it is abolished. I believe paladins see law as a way to maintain order and peace throughout what campaign they would be in. Saying that law is above good defeats the largest aspect of thier class which is to fight evil in it's many forms. I played a paladin of bahamut in a friend's campaign and always favored good above law. After all, all of the other people in the party were quite chaotic and it was best not to drum around my lawful alignment in a pirate town.
I'll note that the Book of Exalted Deeds allows paladin like prestige classes for just about any flavour of good one can think of. Lining up the prestige class with the apropreate Gods should provide a wealth of opportunity to have interesting and varied Paladins.
As far as who they can worship, and LN, LG, or NG deity, since I rule they get their power from real gods, FR style (the location of my current campaign anyway), not abstracts. Sune is an exception. I ruled, in my previous campaigns, that Cuthbert and Wee Jas were sort of opposite LNs. Wee Jas's clerics all rebuke undead and cast inlfict spells, while Cuthbert's cast cure and turn undead.
Actually, it says that all of Wee Jas' LN clerics must rebuke/spontaneously cast inflict. I didn't see anything under Wee Jas' description indicating that there are not LG clerics in her church, so by the one-step rule, the allowed alignments would be: LN, LE, LG, NG, NE. Unless I am missing something, Wee Jas' LG and NG clerics would still turn/spontaneously cast cure spells, since good and evil clerics simply don't get a choice in the matter.
What I do not like is when someone thinks lawful good means stuck up tight arse for laws. I say a paladin's duty is always good before law. Paladins would not stand by a law that harms the people and would see to it that it is abolished. I beleive paladins see law as a way to maintain order and peace throughout what campaign they would be in. Saying that law is above good defeats the largest aspect of thier class which is to fight evil. I played a paladin of bahamut in a friend's campaign and always favored good above law. After all, all of the other people in the party were quite chaotic and it was best not to drum around my lawful alignment in a pirate town.
Sorry to respectfully disagree with you here, but Paladins in the fantasy novels stand by laws that harm other people all the time. I personally believe that a paladin's moral compass would allow them to apply laws in a way that was both good and merciful, but I don't think that it is required of the class in particular.
As an example, in one of the FR books (possibly thornhold), a group of paladins chased a demon across the land, eventually coming upon a village of elves. The elves would not let them pass, and thereby helped the demon escape, aligning themselves with evil and in turn the paladins slew them. If I were playing a paladin PC I would have a hard time doing this, and probably a harder time convincing my DM afterwards that I should still be a paladin, but the mindset of someone sanctioned by their DEITY to perform some task can be seen as an extention of that deity's will.I don't believe that paladins have to be stuck up about applying the laws, but I do believe that they are obligated by their oaths to follow the laws themselves and stop aggrevious lawbreaking in a manner that follows their moral code. Since it was already brought up, take a look at the Dragonlance setting and the Knights of Solomina (or however you spell it). They have a codex of rules and accepted behavior standards called the Oath and Measure - something they can refer back to when their own moral compass fails them.
I guess I just see the Paladin class as justifiably lawful and good, where good does not trump law, but neither does law trump good. Slavery is a great example of a morally questionable practice that could still be lawful. If your player says that slavery is evil and tries to have his PC paladin free the slaves and slay the owners, then it is likely that the paladin will be jailed or killed. Paladins uphold the law, but do not oppress. What if those slaves were volunteers who chose to enter slavery instead of face life in prison or death? I would rule that the only way to get those slaves legally freed would be to buy them and set them free afterwards.
Obviously, I chose the example of slavery because it is personally distastful yet is rife throughout every culture onthe earth (at least at some point in history). I have no doubt that it was often evilly persued and callously governed by those practicing it, but I have my doubts that it was ALWAYS that way, without sometimes being just a job with crappy benefits.
The bottom line here is: Paladins that choose to uphold one law and ignore another are not lawful and therefore are not Paladins.
Just a thought.
Celric
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Actually, it says that all of Wee Jas' LN clerics must rebuke/spontaneously cast inflict. I didn't see anything under Wee Jas' description indicating that there are not LG clerics in her church, so by the one-step rule, the allowed alignments would be: LN, LE, LG, NG, NE. Unless I am missing something, Wee Jas' LG and NG clerics would still turn/spontaneously cast cure spells, since good and evil clerics simply don't get a choice in the matter.
As far as who they can worship, and LN, LG, or NG deity, since I rule they get their power from real gods, FR style (the location of my current campaign anyway), not abstracts. Sune is an exception. I ruled, in my previous campaigns, that Cuthbert and Wee Jas were sort of opposite LNs. Wee Jas's clerics all rebuke undead and cast inlfict spells, while Cuthbert's cast cure and turn undead.
I can't speak for Saern, but I didn't mean to say that good clerics of Wee Jas turn/heal. What (I believe) Saern said and that I advocated was that Wee Jas shouldn't have paladins because her neutral clerics can only rebuke/inflict. This shows that she is a tinge too evil to have paladins even though they are technically within one step of her alignment.
Of course, now that I've said that, I'm thinking that a paladin of wee jas would be pretty cool...
Co-owner - Battlegrounds to Board Games
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I don't know if this is what you're after, but Dragon 310 has variant paladins of the other good and neutral alignments. Dragon 312 has the evil paladin variants. Good stuff there. I had a player who was a chaotic evil anti-paladin in an evil campaign I ran a few years ago.
M@
I have to agree with you here. These 2 issues give you 8 variant Paladins for the other alignments and our group has used 4 of them so far. In the Unearthed Arcana there is also a Paladin of Freedom(CG), Paladin of Tyranny(LE) and Paladin of Slaughter(CE). The original is the Paladin of Honor(LG). The rules for these 3 variants can be found here => http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#palad inVariantsFreedomSlaughterAndTyranny
In addition there is a variant spell-less Paladin in the Complete Warrior. I allow any of these in my campaign for a total of 13 paladin types to suit any alignment. Why should the Lawful Good guys have all the holy warriors?
Of course, now that I've said that, I'm thinking that a paladin of wee jas would be pretty cool...
Heh. I'm right there with you - it's the example that prompted this query. My next question would be: would an article on this be more suited to Class Acts, or its own article? If CA, obviously, it would have about a page of fluff and then substitution levels and/or feats. If a seperate article, then it would be obviously much more in-depth.
The Knights of Samular, the order featured in Thornhold, were especially hidebound, tending to live away from the people that they were sworn to protect. This of course tends to make them a bit more distant and aloof, and of course, that same order was being influenced by a fallen paladin on the pay of servants of Cyric as well, so that situation isn't exactly the best veiw of all paladins.
Pergeiron, the Open Lord of Waterdeep, isn't exactly a stuck up type, nor has he tried to make Waterdeep more more stringent or conforming to his views. His main duty is the well being of the citizens under his charge and the execution of the laws of the city, as they existed before his reign.
Paladins of Lathander, I would imagine, would definately not be quite so structured in their orders as well. Lawful good still, but with less of a heiararchy and beuracracy within the church proper. I doubt they would lean toward Lawful first.
Helm is a Lawful neutral god that has tons of paladins serving him, including Lord Dhelt of Elturel, leader of the Hellriders, so named because his men would ride to hell and back for him. But even Dhelt doesn't seem so much more lawful than good as much as balanced between lawful and good. Most people remember that Helm destroyed Mystra because of his order from Ao, and that he didn't deprive his worshippers of their powers when they started to abuse the Mazticans, but at the same time, Helm counts among his enemies Bane, Shar, and Mask, definately gods that a paladin can take pride in opposing. He is also noted as having a soft spot for children.
In the Core Pantheon, Cuthbert is much like Helm in that he is LN, but would rather have LN and LG followers, but not LE ones. Pelor almost certainly has paladins that follow him, and are most likely more concered with being good than lawful.
Sometimes its much more important to understand the god and the dogma than to just look at an alignment for a god. Sunites can easily understand paladins. While they may have a hard time with all of the rules that the paladin orders come up with, but they understand that they put protecting good, beauty, and love moreso than anything else.
My next question would be: would an article on this be more suited to Class Acts, or its own article? If CA, obviously, it would have about a page of fluff and then substitution levels and/or feats. If a seperate article, then it would be obviously much more in-depth.
Actually, paladins of some of the Greyhawk faiths were covered in one of the Living Greyhawk Journals in Dungeon magazine. Also, those two dragons I mentioned had variants for holy-warriors of all the other alignments.
I think what is being misunderstood here, and maybe it's just me misunderstanding your original question, is the term 'paladin' itself. When one hears 'paladin', one immediately thinks of a righteous holy warrior, but I don't see why all of the faiths and alignments can have a holy warrior similar to a paladin. We just call them paladins becasue there's not an official term for them. A true paladin is a LG warrior of a LG/LN/NG diety. A NE paladin is not a paladin but since there's no other commonly known thing to call him, he gets called a NE paladin.
Actually, paladins of some of the Greyhawk faiths were covered in one of the Living Greyhawk Journals in Dungeon magazine. Also, those two dragons I mentioned had variants for holy-warriors of all the other alignments.
Interesting. I'll have to see if Wee Jas was covered. And if I can get my hands on those issues. =)
I think what is being misunderstood here, and maybe it's just me misunderstanding your original question, is the term 'paladin' itself. When one hears 'paladin', one immediately thinks of a righteous holy warrior, but I don't see why all of the faiths and alignments can have a holy warrior similar to a paladin. We just call them paladins becasue there's not an official term for them. A true paladin is a LG warrior of a LG/LN/NG diety. A NE paladin is not a paladin but since there's no other commonly known thing to call him, he gets called a NE paladin.
You may be right. Let me clarify: I am firmly in the camp that all religions can and should have militant orders affiliated with the church. These are not all paladins; there are a myriad of PrC available that provide alternatives to the Paladin class listed in the PHB, including the Paladin variants in UA.
My question was (at least, I thought at the time *G*) fairly straightforward: What prevents a player from playing the paladin class as detailed in the PHB /and/ being a devotee of a non-LG deity? From my research, I don't see anything that prevents them from doing so, provided the deity they follower allows them to adhere to the paladin code of conduct.
From the responses I have gotten on this thread, it seems that the general consensus is that nothing does stop them from doing so, although there are quite a few opinions stating that it doesn't feel quite right to allow it.
I didn't quite expect so voluminous response. I appreciate the input from everyone. =)
I would tend to favor allowing paladins of lawful deities (not necessarily good), since order is essential to most militant organizations.
I view paladins like my old Rifts GM viewed Cyber Knights - it needs DM approval and the right player to play it.
My question was (at least, I thought at the time *G*) fairly straightforward: What prevents a player from playing the paladin class as detailed in the PHB /and/ being a devotee of a non-LG deity? From my research, I don't see anything that prevents them from doing so, provided the deity they follower allows them to adhere to the paladin code of conduct.
According to the PHB, a paladin doesn't have to be associated with any diety, "devotion to righteousness is enough." (PHB, p.43). By extension a particular paladin could associate him/herself with nearly anything that doesn't violate the code of conduct or associate with evil characters or the morally challenged. In FR, though, virtually all characters have a divine patron and must follow the one-step alignment rule. Thus a paladin (in the FR) MUST a follower of a LG, NG, or LN diety. Sune is an exception, and IMC I might make an exception for an elven paladin (since the Seldarine are ALL CG), but the jury's still out on that. So to answer your question (as I quoted it): nothing, as long as you aren't playing in the Realms.
The Knights of Samular, the order featured in Thornhold, were especially hidebound, tending to live away from the people that they were sworn to protect. This of course tends to make them a bit more distant and aloof, and of course, that same order was being influenced by a fallen paladin on the pay of servants of Cyric as well, so that situation isn't exactly the best veiw of all paladin
I am stunned by this example. I would expect these paladins to lose their abilities immediately. Being duped shows a complete lack of wisdom. That is why paladins have codes, the code should be their guide and let them know killing innocents to get what they want is an evil act. Talk about your fall from grace. Was this in a module or novel? I often wonder where some ideas come from that I read. Well here is a great example.
I am not sure if I like the idea of variant paladins. I do agree with religious orders having their divine warriors. The holy liberator is a good example. Paladins are difficult to play. I think lawful is something many players have a tough time playing or avoid choosing as an alignment. This is because we are looking for release from our lives and that can be found in gaming. I think a player wanting to play a paladin should watch movies such as A Few Good Men-"we use words like honor, duty and corps, not to impress anyone but as a way of life" A paladin must follow the was of law and good. Violating either to promote the other would be wrong. Can a chaotic good character kill randomly to promote chaos? No because it violate the good aspect. Both aspects of alignment must be followed. Invariable one will stand out more. A paladin could lean slightly towards law or good but going to the point of LN or NG would not be acceptable.