Troll weretyrannosaurus warhulk10- would you use?

[ericthecleric]

Just for a laugh, I created the following NPC. I created him because I like the concept, and like creating NPCs. I’ve could have made Smasher much nastier, if I wished, such as by choosing different/better feats, adding 18 more HD to the animal HD (this would change overall CR+1 though), or added more equipment, but I think it’s enough.
For any DMs who are fans of running high-level games, would anyone use him though (for a reason other than killing the PCs), and if so, how?
Before I show the stat bloc (I haven’t had time to use update Smasher to the new stat bloc yet, sorry), I want to include a reminder about the Power Attack feat, and notes about the weapon and armor qualities.
Power Attack feat note: Power Attack can be applied to natural weapons as well as manufactured weapons (per the Players Handbook).
Magic Armor note: In my games, the wild quality benefits all shapechangers, not merely wildshaping druids.
Magic Weapon note: The wounding quality deals 1 points of Constitution damage (from blood loss) to all creatures hit with the weapon; this is not doubled on a critical hit, and creatures immune to critical hits do not take the Con damage. The bodyfeeder quality (from Expanded Psionics Handbook): on a critical hit, the weapon grants Smasher temporary hit points equal to the total damage dealt by a successful critical hit; the temporary hit points last for 10 minutes. Thus, if Smasher successfully scores a critical hit while still enjoying temporary hit points from a previous critical hit, he gains only the better of the two values: either his current number of temporary hit points, or the new influx of temporary hit points, whichever is higher. This effectively grants a really decent level of fast healing... I would rule that- if using the Massive Swing ability, and scoring a critical hit- Smasher deals extra critical damage and gains temporary hit points only from the first creature hit.
As a further note, while I’m ok with the War Hulk feature that all skill ranks in Int-, Wis-, and Cha-based skills go down to 0 (except Intimidate), I think they should also retain ranks in Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot. I’ve cut all Listen and Spot ranks out of the NPC, but a War Hulk wouldn’t become unperceptive despite his utter brutality.

Here we go:
Smasher (Troll form): Troll Weretyrannosaurus Warhulk10; CR 20; Large Giant (Shapechanger); HD 24d8+10d12+278; hp 454; Init +3; Spd 30 ft.; AC 25 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +7 natural, +6 chainmail), touch 19, flat-footed 22; Base Atk +17; Grp +40; Atk +35 melee (1d6+19, claw), +33 melee (3d6+28/15-20, Huge falchion in massive swing), or +35 ranged (2d8+19, massive sweeping boulder); Full Atk +35 melee (1d6+19, 2 claws) and +33 melee (1d8+9, bite), or +33/+28/+23/+18 (3d6+28/15-20, Huge falchion in massive swing), or +35 ranged (2d8+19, massive sweeping boulder); Space/Reach 10 ft./10 ft.; SA Rend 2d6+28, massive swing, massive sweeping boulder; SQ Alternate form, darkvision 90 ft., low-light vision, regeneration 5, scent, tyrannosaurus empathy, 75% chance to ignore critical or sneak attack damage; AL CE; SV Fort +28, Ref +19, Will +17; Str 48, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 6.
Skills and Feats: Jump +39, Listen +6, Spot +6; AlertnessB, Cleave, Improved Critical (Falchion), Improved Natural Attack (bite)B, Iron WillB, Martial Weapon Proficiency (Falchion), Monkey Grip, Multiattack, Power Attack, RunB, Tougness (x6)B, TrackB. Note: Monkey Grip (Complete Warrior)- troll can wield a Huge falchion in (Large) troll form, with a -2 attack penalty [penalty incorporated above].

Smasher (Tyrannosaurus form): As troll form, except: Huge Giant (Shapechanger); Init +4; Spd 40 ft.; AC 25 (-2 size, +4 Dex, +7 natural, +6 chainmail), touch 19, flat-footed 22; Grp +53; Atk +43 melee (3d6+42, bite); Full Atk +43 melee (3d6+42, bite); Space/Reach 15 ft./10 ft.; SA Improved grab, swallow whole, curse of lycanthropy; SQ As troll form, but also gains damage reduction 10/silver; SV Fort +33, Ref +20, Will +17; Str 66, Dex 18, Con 30, Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 6.
Skills: Jump +52, Listen +6, Spot +6.

Smasher (Hybrid form): As troll form, except: Huge Giant (Shapechanger); Init +4; Spd 40 ft.; AC 25 (-2 size, +4 Dex, +7 natural, +6 chainmail), touch 19, flat-footed 22; Atk +43 melee (2d4+28, claw), +43 melee (3d6+42/15-20, Huge falchion in massive swing), or +43 ranged (2d8+28, massive sweeping boulder); Full Atk +43 melee (2d4+28, 2 claws) and +41 melee (3d6+14, bite), or +43/+38/+33/+28 (3d6+42/15-20, Huge falchion in massive swing), or +43 ranged (2d8+28, massive sweeping boulder); Space/Reach 15 ft./15 ft.; SA Rend 4d4+42, curse of lycanthropy, massive swing, massive sweeping boulder; SQ As troll form, but also gains damage reduction 10/silver; SV Fort +33, Ref +20, Will +17; Str 66, Dex 18, Con 30, Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 6.
Skills: Jump +52, Listen +6, Spot +6.
Note: Reach is 15 ft., because hybrid form is “tall” (refer to dire weretiger description if necessary).

Massive Sweeping Boulder (Ex): The troll can throw rocks with a range increment of 50 feet. (Like all thrown weapons, they have a maximum range of five range increments.) The troll uses his Str modifier instead of Dex mod on the attack roll. The rock must weigh approximately 50 pounds. The troll is able to throw his rocks with such force that they affect four squares in a line; each “square” must be 5 feet further away than the previous one. Make one attack roll and apply the result to each target.
Massive Swing (Ex): The troll can lash out all around himself with a single attack; the swing affects all squares he threatens. This is a standard action, therefore the troll can move and make a massive swing, or make multiple massive swings in a round. Make one attack roll and apply that roll as an attack against each defender. If the troll uses a special attack (such as disarm, trip, or sunder), this special attack affects only the first target; the other creatures are attacked normally.
The troll may skip creatures, attacking only those he wants to. For example, if there are 3 creatures surrounding him- an enemy, an ally, and another enemy- the troll can choose not to his his ally. If the troll drops one of his foes with a massive swing, he may make a cleave attack normally. However, he may do so only once for every time he swings, even if he drops more than one foe.
Rend (Ex): If the troll uses its natural weapons (instead of the falchion), and both claws hit, it rends the opponent, dealing an additional 2d6+28 (troll form) or 4d4+42 (hybrid form) points of damage. Power Attack bonus damage does not apply to rend (but does apply to any successful natural weapon hits).
Possessions: Huge +1 bodyfeeder wounding falchion, Large +1 mithral moderate fortification wild chainmail, potion (oil) of greater magic weapon +5 (20th-level; +5 enhancement bonus to falchion), potion (oil) of magic vestment +5 (20th-level; +5 enhancement bonus to chainmail), potion of barkskin +5 (20th-level; +5 enhancement bonus to natural armor), collection of throwing rocks. [Equipment value 131,825 gp, but could theoretically have more.]
Tactics: Drink/use potions; modifications not included above. If facing creatures with a relatively low AC (which is basically all creatures but the oldest dragons and a few other creatures), the troll assumes the opponents (ie. the PCs) are low AC, unless it constantly misses. Against low AC creatures, the troll shifts the full allotment into Power Attack (-17 on attacks, +17 damage with natural weapons or +34 with falchion). Wade into melee… Note that if using a -17 point adjustment on his falchion in hybrid form, his attack stats are +26/+21/+16/+11 (3d6+76/15-20, Huge magic falchion in massive swing), and on a critical hit would deal an average 173 hit points plus 1 Con damage to the first opponent hit (and gain 173 temporary hit points… heh heh), while other opponents would take an average 86.5 hit points plus 1 Con damage each.

So folks, what do you think? (Please be civil.) I can show my “workings”, if required.

[Baramay]

I would not use. I don't like to throw NPCs into the campaign that would send the min/max message to players. I think this would do so.

As far as your character. The CR would not be 20. The lycanthrope subtype is limited to large creatures. If you would wish to go outside this it would create a greater CR adjustment as well as LA adjustment.

I have already seen a player try to min/max a weredeinonychus so he could benefit from the bonus racial skills. I would have insisted on a greater LA adjustment if the hybrid form did not lose its talon attack.

On another site I asked what were the most unbalanced prestige classes, warhulk was one of the ones listed on more than one post. I would be reluctant (not saying I would not) to use that class. Hulking hurler was also repeatedly listed.

[Luke Fleeman]

Depends on the campaign. Maybe in a lost world, jungle setting, Smasher is revered as a deity. Or maybe he has slumbered for many years, and is waking from a magical stasis. Then he needs to be unleashed on a very high level party.

It has been my experience that very high level charcters, even those not min-maxed, can be hard to challenge. A nasty guy like this could be a great challenge.

I don't think he necessarily send a bad message to PCs, either. It just says to them that to provide the most challenging encounters possible, you as DM will use all the rules at your disposal to make a cool NPC. He'd still need to be used cautiously, though.

[Luke Fleeman]

Also, something that may be unbalanced as a PC may be perfect for a monster. That's why the CR adjustments and Level Adjustments are different. The fact you use a PC every game, and a monster sparingly, makes the difference.

[Baramay]

Luke Fleeman wrote:

Also, something that may be unbalanced as a PC may be perfect for a monster. That's why the CR adjustments and Level Adjustments are different. The fact you use a PC every game, and a monster sparingly, makes the difference.

I agree with possibly use this create as you said in a savage land/ jungle setting. The CR would have to be adjusted because huge creature are not accepted as lycanthropes just as magical beasts are not. If you wish to allow this monster its CR would need to be adjusted above 20.

[Jeremy Mac Donald]

I'm most curious if the build is legal.

Also a concept like this without any background at all is kind of...I don't know, missing something.

Nothing wrong with a good monster build - especially if its a legal monster build. But the highlights of the build should be noted. Also some kind of cool little background paragraph would be a good idea if you want a DM to use something.

DMs are often consummate thieves - we'll steal anything that catches our fancy and sets our imaginations racing.

[Luke Fleeman]

Agreed. This guy is a hoss, for real, and I think that CR 20 may be a little low. Some of the templating would add more CR, I think.

[KnightErrantJR]

I wouldn't you this particular guy, but I must thank you for this; I am going to make up a pack of Black Blood members for my Forgotten Realms campaign that live in Chult and are Were Cave Tyrannosaurs . . . so thanks for the idea!

[ericthecleric]

Hi guys,
Thanks for the replies. I didn't add any background because I wanted to see what ideas any responses generated- I like the jungle setting idea.
Sometimes various players over the years have called me a "killer DM", but that's not true; as one poster suggested, I like to use all the rules available when creating challenging opponents.
Yep, this build is legal. Please note that Huge lycanthropes are possible (MM 3.5, p. 175), the base animal needs to be within 1 size category of the base creature, which is Small to Large base animal for Medium base creature, Medium to Huge for a Large base creature, etc.
As for CR, adjustment is +5 for 18 animal-HD, then either animal's base CR (8) or base creature's CR (5 [for troll] + 10 class levels= 15). 5+15= CR 20.
I would never, ever allow such a combination as a player character, but such a creature would have an ECL of 41 (afflicted) or 42 (natural) as a PC. Base creature (troll) is 11 ECL, +10 for War Hulk levels, +18 for animal HD, +2 (afflicted) or +3 (natural). Such a PC would have stacks more equipment.
The obvious way to take down Smasher (I'm not great with creating names), is for a party to attack from long range, or even flying- but the same tactic should be used with any super-tough land-bound creatures.
For a more moderate version, say a troll weretyrannosaurus Cleric6, would be CR 13 (the cleric levels are non-associated), although druid, favored soul, or spirit shaman levels might also be fun and/or appropriate instead of cleric.

[ericthecleric]

KnightErrantJR, did you ever use the were cave tyannosaurus idea you thought of using? If so, how did it go?

[James Jacobs]

Wow. I can't believe I didn't see this thread earlier.

I'd definately use a weretyrannosaurus in my campaign; he might not be a warhulk (maybe a frenzied berserker?), but troll's a good base for such a monstrosity. As to whether or not it's rules-legal... I'm not seeing anything that says it wouldn't be. A troll's Large, so a Huge tyrannosaurus is a legit choice for lycanthropy.

Ahhh... reminds me of that old book I did for Bastion Press where I statted up a dwarven dinosaur cultist who had a 54 HD awakened tyrannosaurus ranger ally. Good times!

[Razz]

Awesome, I love the idea of troll were-tyrannosaurus. And the War Hulk PrC to boot! Nice work!

The background is simple. A savage "war machine" in a jungle type setting or savannah area where he slumbers. Could be a "Champion of Vaprak" or some unique tribe of trolls. You can develop any background for this guy.

Also, who says it wa sa mighty troll war king that battled a were-T Rex on one of its "adventures" and it was how it received its affliction. Of course, it wouldn't be a natural lycanthrope. I'd say for the natural one it was a ritual developed by the troll tribe's shamans or a blessing from a vicious deity of bloodlust, murder, slaughter, whatever. It'd be hard to develop its lineage if it was born a natural lycanthrope.

Good work, though! I think I'll use it for the Chult jungle as well, a champion of Vaprak and Malar or something.

[Mrannah]

this writeup is interesting. but not really the version of the concept i'd use. Rich Burlew (author of the Order of the Stick)did a write up of an ogre were-t rex that i kind of liked better. It ended up with a cr 13, and seemed a villain that a DM could make a running villain for a little while. Yours is a nice high level 'boss monster' that i could see myself using, but i would probably tweak it a bit in a few other directions. Just me being me, though

[ericthecleric]

Thanks for the comments, guys!
[huge grin] James Jacobs likes something I’ve done- cooool!
I’d not heard of Rich Burlew or the Order of the Stick until earlier this year (or his ogre t-rex until you mentioned it, Mrannah). It’s funny how people get other, similar ideas sometimes. One of the editors of Dragon or Dungeon wrote about this phenomenon years ago, calling it synchronicity.
After reading the war hulk description, I thought, “what’s the most ridiculous war hulk NPC I could create that has a CR of 20?”. I picked troll as the base race because of the rend ability, and the tyrannosaurus because of it’s huge strength bonus.

[Bill Lumberg]

Use it as a non-combat challenge. Have him tell a low-level party to find a date for him.

[Jeremy Mac Donald]

Bill Lumberg wrote:

Use it as a non-combat challenge. Have him tell a low-level party to find a date for him.

Lol - now thats a tough and interesting mission.

[ericthecleric]

Bill, Jeremy. In issue Dungeon 40, there's an adventure called "Song of the Fens", where a young lady falls in love with a singing troll. The PCs get the two of them to meet. Obviously, Wendle the troll isn't CE (rather CN).

[Grimcleaver]

Would I use it? Probably not--but for no reason other than that I tend not to recycle any ideas from other people. I use signature characters published in the settings, but that's about it. I tend to not even touch adventures except the setting specific ones and only then as background material. I like my ideas fresh and have no problem making my own.

As for an analysis of the creature, my first thought is how he ended up with just a prestige class and no classes, and whether were-creatures have to be real world carnivorous mammals (which was the impression the template gives in the MM).

As far as fleshing out how he might be used there's some interesting stuff here, first Warhulk implies training--that he's an underling rather than a "boss" fighting as an elite unit in some organized force. This makes me wonder what kind of military a creature like this would fight for, and what measures were required in the first place to subdue him.

Secondly the saurianthropy he has is an interesting one. Either its an infection or pureblood. If the former then there's this cool group of raging were-tyranosaurs running around infecting large sized or larger creatures that survive the encounter. If the latter then there's likely some kind of culture that these critters belong to, possibly all of them troll/tyranosaurs.

Frankly I'm more of a fan of introducing an NPC like this on the fringes of civilization, part of some force within the untamed wild that is bent on driving back the invaders of the wilderness. Sortova' Princess Mononoke kindova' thing. That packs of savage humanoids rush out to do battle with the human settlements, and when the local military dispatches troops to disperse the humanoids, then bamph! out of the forest comes this huge half-troll half tyranosaur like a big ol' Growler straight out of Vor! Now granted that there is too good a scene not to have the PCs witness one way or another. It'd be nice to send the PCs out hunting hobgoblins or whatever as part of this armed band, and have the attack happen right then and there.

Now as for whether I find it kosher to make big ol' improbable weird NPCs that twist the rules all to heck and then with my other hand to encourage PCs that are reasonable and restrained and within the range of normal stuff from the core books--that's just ridiculous. A game like this calls for characters who themselves have at least one template a piece themselves and are mostly from obscure prestige classes and races that come from the Races of What?? book.

Does an NPC like this encourage min/maxing? You better believe it. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. The least anybody better do before they bring something like this into play is to give it the worlds most kick-butt backstory and personality.

[The Jade]

This monster is just too easily taken down.

Oh he might give a few worthy seconds of hack n' slash before G'lah Ma Thother, my elder wyrm red dragon wereJorgmungandr wizard24/archmage3/assassin21, handily dispatches him with her Ragnarok Now spell or uses her unique ability to enlarge to a shape beyond collossal+ (called 'Turn around... we're going back home... just... turn around' size).

I think even G'lah's familiar might see Smasher as little more than a scaly plaything to be batted around until it stops moving.

[ericthecleric]

Thanks, The Jade- I somehow suspect that G’lah Ma Thother has a CR somewhat higher than 20. Of course, G’lah Ma Thother could have an army of Smashers. Then she could use them as playthings as much as she likes. ;-)
Thanks also Grimcleaver. Answering your questions, they don’t need to be real world carnivorous animals, but the base animal for a lycanthrope can be “any carnivorous or omnivorous animal whose size is within one size category of the base creature’s category” (this includes dinosaurs); the base creature can be any humanoid or giant (Monster Manual, p. 175).
Regarding the War Hulk (Miniatures Handbook, p. 22) prerequisites, all you need is: BAB of +5 or greater, Cleave, and “must be large or larger”.
I don’t think I’d ever use Smasher, really, it was just something I designed for a laugh, to see what sort of reactions it would get. I think some amount of min-maxing is necessary for NPCs generally, because most players design effective PCs, and you have to provide an adequate challenge. But as you say, this amount of min-maxing is probably wrong, but I guess it depends on one’s campaign.
I’ve got no idea who Princess Mononoke, Growler, or Vor are, unfortunately, but I liked that description you gave.
It seems the general response from all the posters is that Smasher should be jungle-based, and I agree that it should be an important minion/thug of something more powerful (which would also explain where he gets his potions from). More fun, whomever makes all these potions might also be making shedloads of simulacra of the troll (which also have the same potions, but less permanent equipment) [evil grin]. Perhaps Smasher (and others like him) is the result of a yuan-ti (abomination) breeding project; the champion of Vaprak/Malar/whichever-god is also a good idea. I’ve got some other comments, but first I’ll go on with the following.

I’ve revised Smasher- using the new format- based on James Jacob’s suggestion of using the Frenzied Berserker PrC (Complete Warrior) instead of War Hulk. Because I’ve designed this to be extremely cheesy, I’ve given him aristocrat levels (to help him more quickly gain the requisite rage feats). I’ve only included the highlights of the Frenzy ability; you’ll have to check out the source if you want more details. The magic armor and magic weapon notes given earlier still apply.

Smasher, Troll form CR 20
Male troll weretyrannosaurus aristocrat4/barbarian2/frenzied berserker6
Monster Manual 170
CE Large giant (shapechanger, troll)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 90 ft., low-light vision, scent; Listen +36, Spot +36
Languages Giant
AC 25 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +7 natural, +6 chainmail), touch 12, flat-footed 25; uncanny dodge
hp 451 (36 HD); regeneration 5
Fort +30, Ref +19, Will +21
Spd 40 ft.
Melee 2 claws +39 (1d6+12) and bite +37 (1d8+6), or Huge falchion +40/+35/+30/+25 (3d6+19/15-20)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Base Atk +28; Grp +44
Atk Options Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Frenzy 3/day, improved power attack, rage 1/day, rend 2d6+13, supreme cleave
Special Actions inspire frenzy 1/day, Intimidating Rage
Combat Gear potion (oil) of greater magic weapon +5 (20th-level; +5 enhancement bonus to falchion), potion (oil) of magic vestment +5 (20th-level; +5 enhancement bonus to chainmail), potion of barkskin +5 (20th-level; +5 enhancement bonus to natural armor)
Abilities Str 34, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 6
SQ Alternate form, tyrannosaurus empathy, 75% chance to ignore critical or sneak attack damage
Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Destructive Rage*, DiehardB, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (Falchion), Improved Natural Attack (bite), Improved Sunder, Intimidating Rage*, Iron WillB, Monkey Grip*, Multiattack, Power Attack, Run, TrackB.
* These feats are from Complete Warrior.
Skills: Intimidate +2 (against Medium opponents), Jump +36 (+40 if running), Listen +36, Spot +36, Survival +17.
Possessions: combat gear, Huge +1 bodyfeeder wounding falchion, Large +1 mithral moderate fortification wild chainmail, belt of giant strength +6. [Possessions value 167,825 gp, but could theoretically have more.]

Alternate Form (Su): In tyrannosaurus form, his statistics change as follows:
CE Huge giant (shapechanger)
Init +4
hp 451 (36 HD); DR 10/silver; regeneration 5
Fort +35, Ref +20
Spd 50 ft.
Melee bite +47 melee (3d6+31 plus curse of lycanthropy)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Grp +57
Atk options improved grab, swallow whole; SQ As troll form, but gains damage reduction 10/silver; Abilities Str 52, Dex 18, Con 30.
Skills: Intimidate +6 (against Medium opponents), Jump +49 (+53 if running).

Alternate Form (Su): In hybrid form, his statistics change as follows:
CE Huge giant (shapechanger)
Init +4
hp 451 (36 HD); DR 10/silver; regeneration 5
Fort +35, Ref +20
Melee bite +47 melee (3d6+31 plus curse of lycanthropy)
Melee 2 claws +47 melee (2d4+21) and bite +45 melee (3d6+10 plus curse of lycanthropy), or Huge falchion +48/+43/+38/+33 (3d6+32/15-20)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Grp +57
Atk options as troll form but rend deals 4d4+31
Abilities Str 52, Dex 18, Con 30
Skills: Intimidate +6 (against Medium opponents), Jump +45 (+49 if running)

Alternate Form (Su): In hybrid form with rage and frenzy abilities activated, his statistics change as follows:
CE Huge Giant (Shapechanger)
Init +4
AC 19, touch 6, flat-footed 19
hp 523 (36 HD); DR 10/silver; regeneration 5; gains 2 nonlethal points of damage each round frenzy is activated
Fort +37, Ref +20, Will +23
Melee* 3 claws +24 melee (2d4+47) and +22 melee (3d6+34 plus curse of lycanthropy), or Huge falchion +25/+25/+20/+15/+10 (3d6+123/15-20) (Yes that “+123” figure IS correct, and IS doubled on a crit!!)
Grp +62
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Atk options as troll form but rend deals 4d4+31
Abilities Str 62, Dex 18, Con 34.
Skills: Intimidate +6 (against Medium opponents), Jump +50 (+54 if running).
* Includes 28-point Power Attack

Frenzy (Ex): When frenzied, Smasher gains a +6 bonus to Strength, and gains a single extra attack at his highest attack bonus if he makes a full attack action (this latter effect is not cumulative with haste or other effects that grant additional attacks). He takes a -4 penalty to AC and takes 2 points of nonlethal damage every round. The frenzy lasts 13 rounds, or 15 if he is raging. He can enter frenzy as a free action (on his own turn). While in a frenzy, he must attack foes, or a random creature if no foes remain. He isn’t considered disabled if he has 0 hit points or incapacitated below -1 hit point. Even if he’s below -9 hit points, he doesn’t die until the frenzy is over.
Inspire Frenzy (Su): When he is frenzied, all willing allies within 10 feet of Smasher gain the benefits and disadvantages of frenzy. Their frenzy lasts for the same duration as Smasher’s, starting with the first round that they frenzy (not when Smasher begins a frenzy), even if they move away from Smasher.
Rend (Ex): If the troll uses its natural weapons (instead of the falchion), and both claws hit, it rends the opponent, dealing an additional 2d6+13 (troll form) or 4d4+31 (hybrid form) points of damage. Power Attack bonus damage does not apply to rend (but does apply to any successful natural weapon hits).
Supreme Cleave: Smasher can take a 5-foot step between attacks when using the Cleave or Great Cleave feat. He is limited to one such adjustment per round, so he cannot use this ability during a round in which he has already taken a 5-foot step.
Tactics: Smasher typically remains in hybrid form, unless it makes more sense to remain in troll form. Drink/use potions (modifications not included above), then activate frenzy and rage abilities. In hybrid form, he uses a full allotment Power Attack (-28 on attacks, +42 damage with natural weapons or +51 with falchion). Wade (or jump) into melee… If he doesn’t hit much, he reduces the allotment by 10 points each round, until he does regularly hit. If needed, he uses Improved Sunder against an opponent’s weapon.

Another cool idea is to add the Fiendish or Half-Fiend template. Given what’s coming in Dungeon, a legion of Smashers (with a better name) would be quite nice to see in the Savage Tide. Perhaps they are “pets” of a certain two-headed demon lord. Meeting the simulacra would be nasty enough, and encountering the real thing in the Abyss might make the PCs break down and cry…

I think the stat bloc is too big to be used as a Critical Threat, so, if James wants to use this in Dungeon, please feel free to do so (although use my real name if so).

[The Jade]

Actually I love epic level monsters. Your creation, moreover the rules that govern the beast, suggested mind reeling alternatives and I wrote 'em all down I did.

[Vattnisse]

James Jacobs wrote:

Wow. I can't believe I didn't see this thread earlier.

I'd definately use a weretyrannosaurus in my campaign; he might not be a warhulk (maybe a frenzied berserker?), but troll's a good base for such a monstrosity. As to whether or not it's rules-legal... I'm not seeing anything that says it wouldn't be. A troll's Large, so a Huge tyrannosaurus is a legit choice for lycanthropy.

Ahhh... reminds me of that old book I did for Bastion Press where I statted up a dwarven dinosaur cultist who had a 54 HD awakened tyrannosaurus ranger ally. Good times!

I've got that book! Man, that dwarf was mean... but I would be too, once you consider that initiation ritual. Chomp!

[ericthecleric]

Well, The Jade, what are your mind reeling alternatives? Do tell!

[The Jade]

ericthecleric wrote:

Well, The Jade, what are your mind reeling alternatives? Do tell!

Well in the name of uber beasties I was thinking of...

Rhuk, A Half-Scrag Bog Giant (both from Fiend Folio, Half-Scrag a variation on the Half-Troll)

Bog giants 'despise trolls and attack them on sight' but I can see how a maddened troll in heat might exact some revenge for this racial enmity. Now take Rhuk, the powerful product of such an unwholesome union, and have him--a natural crocodile hunter by nature--encounter a were crocodile and get bitten only to survive as a... well I don't even want to add up all those special qualities. Seems like overkill and I'm not sure if that many half-this and template-thats can stack.

Leave out the shapeshifting and you still have a dim and slow killer who enjoys Fast Healing while in the water. He'd swim up like a croc and drag someone underwater then use his rend ability. I imagine the other bog giants banish him at birth. He'd be a feral (no template implied) beast among beasts. I'm not sure if a character class is in order. Any thoughts?

[Vattnisse]

I, for one, love it! Advancement should probably be by HD - or maybe as Expert?

Builds like these are one of the things I love about 3.x - no need anymore for those tired old orc chiefs with 4 extra hp. Of course, too many templates can become kinda silly... like the beastie I cranked out when I bought the Savage Species book: an insectile Fire Giant with two extra heads. That was one scary critter, especially when wielding his two huge bladed flails. I intended to use it as some kind of mythological guardian beast (it was far from obvious that it was based on a Giant), but that never happened, which was probably a good thing. Some things probably are not meant to be...

[The Jade]

Vattnisse wrote:

I, for one, love it! Advancement should probably be by HD - or maybe as Expert?

Builds like these are one of the things I love about 3.x - no need anymore for those tired old orc chiefs with 4 extra hp. Of course, too many templates can become kinda silly... like the beastie I cranked out when I bought the Savage Species book: an insectile Fire Giant with two extra heads. That was one scary critter, especially when wielding his two huge bladed flails.

I was thinking HD advancement but expert is intriguing as well.

You know, that poly headed fire giant of yours really is quite upsetting. Imagine how loud the chitinous clicking on such a behemoth might sound? I believe during such an encounter my cleric's Sh%t The Pants feat would come quite in handy along with his Boots of Feet Don't Fail Me Now.

[Vattnisse]

The Jade wrote:

You know, that poly headed fire giant of yours really is quite upsetting. Imagine how loud the chitinous clicking on such a behemoth might sound? I believe during such an encounter my cleric's Sh%t The Pants feat would come quite in handy along with his Boots of Feet Don't Fail Me Now.

That was sort of the point. I was picturing how this freak would creak up to the PCs and then turn on the flail propellers - *WOSH*WOSH*WOSHWOSHWOSH*Splaaaaat*. Very scary.

Of course, the poly head/insectile combo is particularly effective, as the insect gains DEX bonuses and the multihead gives Combat Relexes and Multiweapon Combat effects, plus immunity to flanking. But, he never saw any use...

[Vattnisse]

Just one more thought on Smasher - as his ECL is a bit over 20 (just a teeeeeeeny little bit...), he's eligible for epic feats, right? This build just cries out for Dire Charge - who can resist a charge AND full attack? Or, though it is "mundane", Leap Attack. Ouch!

[ericthecleric]

Yeah, at 21st HD, he would be eligible for epic feats. As a PC (which i wouldn't allow), the ECL is 44 (24 monster HD, 12 class levels using frenzied berserker version, +3 ECL mod for natural lycanthrope, +5 ECL mod for troll). As a monster NPC, the CR is 20.

[Jonathan Drain]

Pah! He's got nothing on my half black dragon, half brass golem lich troll cleric. He takes all damage except fire and acid as nonlethal, but as undead he's immune to nonlethal. As half-dragon he's immune to acid, and as half-golem he's actually healed by fire - that, and immune to magic. He's immune to all damage and magic!

[The Jade]

Jonathan Drain wrote:

Pah! He's got nothing on my half black dragon, half brass golem lich troll cleric. He takes all damage except fire and acid as nonlethal, but as undead he's immune to nonlethal. As half-dragon he's immune to acid, and as half-golem he's actually healed by fire - that, and immune to magic. He's immune to all damage and magic!

Yeah, but he's got that trick knee...

[Tome]

Jonathan Drain wrote:

Pah! He's got nothing on my half black dragon, half brass golem lich troll cleric. He takes all damage except fire and acid as nonlethal, but as undead he's immune to nonlethal. As half-dragon he's immune to acid, and as half-golem he's actually healed by fire - that, and immune to magic. He's immune to all damage and magic!

Can anyone actually think of a way to kill such a beast? The only thing I can think of is some sort of instant death spell of the conjuration school (There has to be at least one). Or some sort of anti-construct spell/mace of smiting.

[Moff Rimmer]

Tome wrote:

Jonathan Drain wrote:

Pah! He's got nothing on my half black dragon, half brass golem lich troll cleric. He takes all damage except fire and acid as nonlethal, but as undead he's immune to nonlethal. As half-dragon he's immune to acid, and as half-golem he's actually healed by fire - that, and immune to magic. He's immune to all damage and magic!

Can anyone actually think of a way to kill such a beast? The only thing I can think of is some sort of instant death spell of the conjuration school (There has to be at least one). Or some sort of anti-construct spell/mace of smiting.

Interesting combination --

The lich template says that it can only be applied to humanoid creatures -- Since troll is a giant, technically it shouldn't be possible. The concept is fun though -- I'd like to hear this guy's background story :-)

[Thanis Kartaleon]

Bill Hendricks wrote:

Interesting combination --

The lich template says that it can only be applied to humanoid creatures -- Since troll is a giant, technically it shouldn't be possible. The concept is fun though -- I'd like to hear this guy's background story :-)

How about a legal combo - Half-Black Dragon Firesouled Warforged Sorcerer/Juggernaught/Flux Adept. I can't remember the levels offhand (and I'm *way* far away from my books) and I think there may have been a couple of other things, but as it stands this guy is immune to all normal ways of dealing damage.

[tdewitt274]

Jonathan Drain wrote:

Pah! He's got nothing on my half black dragon, half brass golem lich troll cleric. He takes all damage except fire and acid as nonlethal, but as undead he's immune to nonlethal. As half-dragon he's immune to acid, and as half-golem he's actually healed by fire - that, and immune to magic. He's immune to all damage and magic!

Isn't that 3 halves? (Dragon, Golem, Troll) Or is he just that great!

[kahoolin]

tdewitt274 wrote:

Isn't that 3 halves? (Dragon, Golem, Troll) Or is he just that great!

More to the point, shouldn't he be only half immune to acid and magic, and take half of his normal damage as nonlethal? :)

Like me, I'm half Scots half German/Irish, which means I am three quarters drunk, a bit of a miser and tackle problems with a moderate amount of efficiency.

[The White Toymaker]

Thanis Kartaleon wrote:

How about a legal combo - Half-Black Dragon Firesouled Warforged Sorcerer/Juggernaught/Flux Adept. I can't remember the levels offhand (and I'm *way* far away from my books) and I think there may have been a couple of other things, but as it stands this guy is immune to all normal ways of dealing damage.

I think that the build required one more shot of half-dragon, though I can't recall what it was -- the Flux Adept grants regeneration bypass by three energy types. He was also immune to mind-affecting effects, death effects, and some other stuff. He pretty much just needed a Ring of Free Movement, I think, to be largely unstoppable.

The other problem, of course, with using a lich (or other undead) with regeneration is that a creature with no constitution score can't have regeneration -- I looked it up once when I was trying to figure out how an Atropal could possibly be a remotely fair encounter for its CR, and learned that there's really no such thing as an Atropal. ;)

[Vendle]

I'd like to know where it is clarified that "undead cannot have regeneration" as this tidbit would nullify several different varities of the undead troll. Truly curious.

[tdewitt274]

Vendle wrote:

I'd like to know where it is clarified that "undead cannot have regeneration" as this tidbit would nullify several different varities of the undead troll. Truly curious.

From an online conversion, but I'm sure it's in the SRD:

Andargor's SRD wrote:

Regeneration (Ex): A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage. The creature automatically heals nonlethal damage at a fixed rate per round, as given in the entry. Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal lethal damage to the creature, which doesn't go away. The creature's descriptive text describes the details. A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage.

Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage ignore regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. Regenerating creatures can regrow lost portions of their bodies and can reattach severed limbs or body parts; details are in the creature's descriptive text. Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.

A creature must have a Constitution score to have the regeneration ability.

[Fatespinner]

Critical weakness: He doesn't have evasion!

Maximized Fireballs are the answer here. Combine with Improved Invisibility and a single smart wizard/sorcerer (level 15+) could take him out relatively easily. Throw a Horrid Wilting on there to make it really tough for the big lout. Have a Teleport memorized just in case something goes wrong.

If you've got a whole party of level 20s? Mordenkainen's Disjunction to take the sting off his gear (including the fortification) and then let the rogues backstab the crap out of him while flanking. Cleric sits back and heals the rogues while the wizard blasts away with Energy Drain and Enervation (which don't allow saving throws, if I recall correctly).

[Fatespinner]

Tome wrote:

Jonathan Drain wrote:

Pah! He's got nothing on my half black dragon, half brass golem lich troll cleric. He takes all damage except fire and acid as nonlethal, but as undead he's immune to nonlethal. As half-dragon he's immune to acid, and as half-golem he's actually healed by fire - that, and immune to magic. He's immune to all damage and magic!

Can anyone actually think of a way to kill such a beast? The only thing I can think of is some sort of instant death spell of the conjuration school (There has to be at least one). Or some sort of anti-construct spell/mace of smiting.

Wish spell. *nods sagely*

[Mrannah]

i feel compelled to refer everyone to the Order of the Stick strip in the recent dragon involving the snail

[Tome]

Fatespinner wrote:

Wish spell. *nods sagely*

The Wish spell allows spell resistnce and is thus covered by the golem immunity to magic. I've consulted Savage Species and discovered that such a creature would be Undead rather than a Construct, and thus vulnerable to Disruption weapons and Greater Arrows of Slaying (Undead).

[Adam Daigle]

How's about loading some of these builds onto Lillith's project?

http://www.darkmoongallery.com/npc/

I'll add my little halfling werechameleon rogue.

[Lilith]

Daigle wrote:

How's about loading some of these builds onto Lillith's project?

http://www.darkmoongallery.com/npc/

I'll add my little halfling werechameleon rogue.

*claps* Yay! More for the Stat Block Bank!

[KnightErrantJR]

ericthecleric wrote:

KnightErrantJR, did you ever use the were cave tyannosaurus idea you thought of using? If so, how did it go?

Sorry, I missed this comment in between everything else. No, never got a chance to use them, as my grand Chult epic adventures were a bit sidelined (see the "What Happened to your Campaign" thread for details). Since I wanted to wrap up the campaign instead of just letting it go, I had to shorten the ending scenario, so it ended up on the cutting room floor. Alas, in a campaign there are no provisions for "deleted scenes."

[Tome]

An idea popped into my head whilst I was experimenting with thri-kreen and the Mighty Leaping feat fromsavage species. What happens when you add the Multi-headed template to a Thri-Kreen? A maximum of 24 attacks per round, that's what.

Here's the math:
Two-Headed Thri-kreen Fighter 12 (ECL 20, CR 15)

2 Bites
+ Necklace of Natural Weapons (2x "Speed" quality)
=4 Bites

4x 4 weapon attacks
+ 4x "Speed" magic weapons
=20 weapon attacks

= Total of 24 Attacks

And I then Decided to apply a similar process to a Half-dragon:
Two Headed Half-Dragon Half-Human Fighter 14 (ECL 22, CR 19)

2 Bites
+"Rapidstrike" and "Improved Rapidstrike" feats
+ Necklace of Natural Weapons (2x "Speed" quality)
=8 Bites

2x 4 weapon attacks
+"Dragon Tail" and "Prehensile Tail" feats
+ 3x "Speed" magic weapons
=15 weapon attacks

= Total of 23 Attacks

Four Headed Half-Dragon Half-Human Fighter 10 (ECL 23, CR 20)

4 Bites
+"Rapidstrike" and "Improved Rapidstrike" feats
+ Necklace of Natural Weapons (2x "Speed" quality)
=16 Bites

2x 4 weapon attacks
+"Dragon Tail" and "Prehensile Tail" feats
+ 3x "Speed" magic weapons
=15 weapon attacks

= Total of 31 Attacks

Now that's overwhelming!

[ericthecleric]

Tome, medium-size creatures can have a maximum of 2 heads (adding +1 head only) with the multi-headed template, and large creatures can have a maximum of 4 heads (adding up to 3 heads) with the template.
What are the sources (including page) for those feats and Necklace, please?
BTW, multiple haste effects (and similar) don't generally stack. I wonder if the above feats do.

[Tome]

ericthecleric wrote:

Tome, medium-size creatures can have a maximum of 2 heads (adding +1 head only) with the multi-headed template, and large creatures can have a maximum of 4 heads (adding up to 3 heads) with the template.

What are the sources (including page) for those feats and Necklace, please?
BTW, multiple haste effects (and similar) don't generally stack. I wonder if the above feats do.

^_^ Guess I should toss the four-headed half-dragon.

I've checked and apart from an error with rapidstrike all the other feats/gear stacks. All of the gear and feats are from either Savage Species, Races of the Dragon or the Draconomicon.

To be exact:
Necklace of Natural Weapons, Savage Species, pg 58. (weapon abilities to natural weapons)
Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike, Draconomicon, pg 69. (extra attacks with a pair of natural weapons)
Dragon Tail, Races of the Dragon, pg 98. (dragonblood gains a tail attack)
Prehensile Tail, Savage Species, pg 38. (use tail like an extra hand)
Speed, Dugeon Masters Guide, pg 225. (extra attack with a weapon)
Multiheaded template, Savage Species, pg 124. (extra heads and treat all seconary weapons as though they were primary weapons)

And here's the corrected Half-Dragon:
Two Headed Half-Dragon Half-Human Fighter 14 (ECL 22, CR 19)

2 Bites
+"Rapidstrike" and "Improved Rapidstrike" feats
+ Necklace of Natural Weapons (2x "Speed" quality)
=6 Bites

2x 4 weapon attacks
+"Dragon Tail" and "Prehensile Tail" feats
+ 3x "Speed" magic weapons
=15 weapon attacks

= Total of 21 Attacks

[Valegrim]

no, would not use; but sometimes I like to make up the classic Godzilla creatures from monster movies for my dinosaure/monster area, though I have never had a party go there.