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Hi there everybody.
I'm about to start another campaign(having to put the age of worms ap on hold for a while since my players lost interest after the Champion's belt adventure; no way they want to return to Diamond Lake, but i digress).
I was thinking to start the new campaign at 0 level using npc classes such as commoner,expert,warrior etc.for my group.
My questions i'm asking on this thread are these:
1. What are the exp. needed to make the transition from 0 to 1st of the pc classes? The same from the PHB?
2.How can i run this without turning the adventure into a TPK?
3.Has anyone else ever did something like before? If so how?
Any adivce,comments and input will be appreciated.
Hi there everybody.
I'm about to start another campaign(having to put the age of worms ap on hold for a while since my players lost interest after the Champion's belt adventure; no way they want to return to Diamond Lake, but i digress).
I was thinking to start the new campaign at 0 level using npc classes such as commoner,expert,warrior etc.for my group.
My questions i'm asking on this thread are these:
1. What are the exp. needed to make the transition from 0 to 1st of the pc classes? The same from the PHB?
I would assume so as all classes follow the same xp, feat progression and ability point increase chart. On the other hand you could just make something up depending on how long you want 1st-level to last. Recently I've been toying with the idea of doubling the xp requirements to achieve a level, just because level progression just seems too quick these days. The characters barely get to figure out their new powers before they get a batch of new ones.
2.How can i run this without turning the adventure into a TPK?
That's tough even for 1st-level standard classes as one hit can kill from just about anything. Make sure the EL for combat encounters doesn't climb above 2 (2 should probably be rare) and make sure the characters' get rest time in between. You could also hinge more encounters around role-playing and problem-solving (riddles, skill checks, tactical situations) and less around fights. Such situtations typically offer the characters more control over their destiny than fights do at that level.
3.Has anyone else ever did something like before? If so how?
Any adivce,comments and input will be appreciated.
Goodman Games did a 1st (0) level adventure module for NPC classes, though the name escapes me. In it an ogre terrorizes a small village. You might also consider the horror aspect of such a game as well. With no special powers the characters will have to rely on wits and luck to survive just like in Call of Cthulhu.
GGG
There was an adventure published decades ago that started the adventurers off as 0 level peons on an island, I believe, and they had to "discover" what class they were most suited for. I cannot remember the name of it, maybe someone with a better memory can help.
Not turning it into a TPK is easy--go easy on the combat challenges and heavy on problem solving and using skills. Maybe an arduous journey over rough terrain with a few low-threat combat encounters to get the blood moving.
An idea might be that the PC's are all 13 year olds (or equivalent) who were traveling on a wagon train to another town when the wagon train got ambushed and they all escaped into the woods. Now, they're alone, lightly armed, no parents or adults left alive, stranded, 60-80 miles from the nearest town. A range of dark hills with strange noises looms just ahead, and the goblin raiders that attacked them are behind them....but one of the teens has a map.
The dark hills could be a source of encounters with tiny monstrous spiders, a dire rat or two, a goblin straggler, a half-demented wise woman who can offer healing herbs, a crippled ranger who lives with his animal companion bear in a den and can offer training, advice and shelter, etc....I think you catch my drift.
Sounds like a cool idea, I wish I was in your gaming group.
I was thinking to start the new campaign at 0 level using npc classes such as commoner,expert,warrior etc.for my group.
There was a FR adventure many moons ago called Under Illefarn that started Characters off in the town of Daggerford as 0 level characters, but I think that was 1st or at least 2nd addition. I'll have to pull my copy when I get home to make certain.
I also thought of starting off characters in the AoW campaign as having a "free" level in one of the NPC classes for when they first discovered the old mine office, and then advancing them to 1st level afterwards. Ultimately I discarded this idea as too difficult to wrap my player's heads around but the idea itself, I think, has merit.
There was an adventure published decades ago that started the adventurers off as 0 level peons on an island, I believe, and they had to "discover" what class they were most suited for. I cannot remember the name of it, maybe someone with a better memory can help.
That would be N4 Treasure Hunt. Published 1986 1st edition AD&D. PC's are shipwrecked on an island, dodge goblins and orcs, find an old temple and wander through a mansion and catacombs. players are basically level 0, 1d6 HD commoners and the DM records their actions to determine what class they become.
I totally agree with what's said above... "Treasure Hunt" is the way to go for a zero level adventure. Having one of my groups start out with this module, we had tons of fun playing it.
Although I would recommend using it for beginning players, as a way to introduce the world of D&D. Experienced players will probably find it pretty lame, as it doesn't really bring anything new to the table.
Just remember that if you start the players at level zero (-500 xp should do it), keep the adventure small and direct. To begin, you'll need a reason for the PCs to want to stick together. Having the adventure start right after their entire village is destroyed (either by a natural disaster or an orc warparty) would be good. This would give them a reason to form a group and try and reach the neigboring village to get help or supplies. A small six day trek to the next village with only one short sword for the entire group should become the adventure of a lifetime.
Ultradan
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I was toying with the idea(and my players are very excited by this after talking about the AOW debacle last night) that the pcs are surviving members of a family that usually don't get along but will have to after an attack on their village (still working on bad guy)and they have escort the 50 or so other survivors to the nearest large town for help. The weapons and they will use were ironically taken from the few dead bodies of the enemy(still working on them too)since the village had no arms whatso ever.
On route the villagers traveling with the siblings(who are ironically considered the black sheep of the village) could teach at least some of the pcs skills or feats maybe a retired fighter or trapper(ranger).
Any Ideas?
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I think a 0 level campaign is a great idea, and I also tried it at one point, and this is what happened:
Everyone played an aristocrat.
Seriously. The npc classes are not balanced against each other as well as the PC classes are. You might get one player who takes warrior or expert, but no one will take commoner. The aristocrat has a good skill list, a good HD, and gives weapon and armor proficiencies.
Maybe you'll get lucky and your players will see more value in the warriors +1 BAB or the adept's spells.
Sebastian
I was toying with the idea(and my players are very excited by this after talking about the AOW debacle last night) that the pcs are surviving members of a family that usually don't get along but will have to after an attack on their village (still working on bad guy)and they have escort the 50 or so other survivors to the nearest large town for help. The weapons and they will use were ironically taken from the few dead bodies of the enemy(still working on them too)since the village had no arms whatso ever.
On route the villagers traveling with the siblings(who are ironically considered the black sheep of the village) could teach at least some of the pcs skills or feats maybe a retired fighter or trapper(ranger).
Any Ideas?
I'd get them away from the other villagers pretty quick. One, if they're the black sheep why do people listen to them? Second while it's true it takes the whole village to raise the child they really shouldn't be hanging around during their 'rite of passage'. Let the characters find these skills along the way form outsiders or circumstance. Perhaps they are scouting, sent as a diversion (either knowingly or after being duped), or somehow cut off from the rest of the villagers during a chase. Maybe when they get to whatever meeting point they get to, they find out that the villagers never made it or where captured and sold into slavery (a good option for the PCs as well if you want to avoid killing someone in a fight). This is also a good place to introduce the Ubervillain of whatever campaign this might develop into.
GGG
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I like it but I would make the retired fighters, etc. crippled in some for believability, otherwise wouldn't the retired guys just lead the town to safety? The old wizard who had his hands removed by a glyph, fighter who was paralyed(waist down) in a fall and by the time he recieved healing his back had already healed, the thief with cronic carpel tunnel, Damn, This sounds like a great adventure!
FH
I agree with the "leave the other villagers out of it" way of thinking. And I also agree to have them roll their classes (in a few levels, it won't matter anyways).
Here's an idea...
Have the group AND the villagers escorted by a party of high level NPC adventurers. About a quarter of the way to the other village, the whole troup gets ambushed (a bit like in Lord of the Rings The Two Towers, when they get attacked by goblins and worgs on their way to Helmsdeep), the NPC adventurers get killed, the villagers get taken prisonner, and the PC party is formed (as if by fate...).
Low level + low ressources = challenging adventure!!
Ultradan
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I'll agree with GGG to the extent that i'll make only one pc the black sheep of the family instead of the village. The new campaign takes place in the "Holy Realm" described in Champions of Valor which has three villages(well two after the raid). The black sheep pc's trangression is the fact that unlike the rest of the family as well as the village, she lacks the slightest shred of religious faith. She is a human expert 1 but the class she wants is rogue. The other siblings are not finished yet with their charater concepts.
And darn it all! I still have to make up the bad guy(s) responsible for all this!
I'll continue to post on this thread as the campaign develops.
Thanks for all your great ideas everyone!
Ideas for bad guys:
1. Random evil monsters eg goblins
2. Religious reasons - maybe there are 'crusades'?
3. Other religious reasons - cult of Kyuss needs a few more souls?
4. Druidic reasons - druids hate the industry of the town
5. Secular reasons - war
6. Other secular - King is advised that with a famine en route it would be best to 'thin' the population (maybe he is being controlled by Rakshasa)
Any other ideas?
Oh yeah I just remembered one encounter I heard about for level 0 stuff. Make it minorly comical but have them face something that is somewhat rediculous. My friends faced a Zombie Turkey! The CR is really low and the idea is a little comical but it gets the point of combat across and introduces some sort of main villain (necromancer) and might make people take on typical roles which will guide them in choosing classes. eg if they un up and hit it then they could be fighters or barbarians, if the circle round to flank then rogues, throw stuff at it then ranger or mage, etc.
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Ideas for bad guys:
1. Random evil monsters eg goblins
2. Religious reasons - maybe there are 'crusades'?
3. Other religious reasons - cult of Kyuss needs a few more souls?
4. Druidic reasons - druids hate the industry of the town
5. Secular reasons - war
6. Other secular - King is advised that with a famine en route it would be best to 'thin' the population (maybe he is being controlled by Rakshasa)Any other ideas?
Great ideas ignimbrite78,i will defintely use 2.Religious resaons-crusade as i'm trying make this campaign somewhat dependent on more divine magic and less arcane magic with the holy realm being a theological state based on the relgion of at least six gods.
I am also trying to limit the pc classes in the region by allowing only the following in order reflect the 'frontierstyle'setting:sorceror,rogue,fighter,ranger,druid,cleric and paladin.The other classes will need more specialzied training and resources which the holy realm does not have.maybe they have to go to the city of Westgate for this as a example. Or i can try the option from unearthed arcana that uses the npc classes as regular ones and the standard ones are made up as prestige classes.
Any thoughts?
By the way i already discussed all this with my group and they agreed since the standard classes i allowed were those they had chosen,so it was not my intent to take class choice from the pcs.
Oh about the undead turkey? Leave that to col. sanders and frank purdue
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I would assume so as all classes follow the same xp, feat progression and ability point increase chart. On the other hand you could just make something up depending on how long you want 1st-level to last. Recently I've been toying with the idea of doubling the xp requirements to achieve a level, just because level progression just seems too quick these days. The characters barely get to figure out their new powers before they get a batch of new ones.
Ok i'm confused. If it takes 1000 exp to go from war1 to war2, why would as Ultradan suggested it only -500 exp to go from war1 to Ftr1?
Goodman Games did a 1st (0) level adventure module for NPC classes, though the name escapes me. In it an ogre terrorizes a small village. You might also consider the horror aspect of such a game as well. With no special powers the characters will have to rely on wits and luck to survive just like Call of Cthulhu...
I just glanced at this just this morning its called' Legends are born,not made'. good points: the plot and the pregenerated pcs. bad points: the ogre being drunk on poisoned wine( my group might not go for the idea or won't do at all)and an animated broom(i kid you not)the author must got the idea from fantasia. Any minute mickey mouse would ambush the party sqeeking 'Who dares enter my lair?"
I would assume so as all classes follow the same xp, feat progression and ability point increase chart. On the other hand you could just make something up depending on how long you want 1st-level to last. Recently I've been toying with the idea of doubling the xp requirements to achieve a level, just because level progression just seems too quick these days. The characters barely get to figure out their new powers before they get a batch of new ones.Ok i'm confused. If it takes 1000 exp to go from war1 to war2, why would as Ultradan suggested it only -500 exp to go from war1 to Ftr1?
I think that he thought that you ment to actually start out a "0-level" not a "1st-level" in an NPC class as I surmised. Regardless it's up to you and your players.
Goodman Games did a 1st (0) level adventure module for NPC classes, though the name escapes me. In it an ogre terrorizes a small village. You might also consider the horror aspect of such a game as well. With no special powers the characters will have to rely on wits and luck to survive just like Call of Cthulhu...I just glanced at this just this morning its called' Legends are born,not made'. good points: the plot and the pregenerated pcs. bad points: the ogre being drunk on poisoned wine( my group might not go for the idea or won't do at all)and an animated broom(i kid you not)the author must got the idea from fantasia. Any minute mickey mouse would ambush the party sqeeking 'Who dares enter my lair?"
I've not seen "Legends...." myself I just happened to notice it last week and then notice your post. Speaking as the guy who penned "Menagerie" I've got no problems with humorously dangerous animated objects (beats conventional bugs and zombies any day). An animated broom might sound funny, but just imagine the look on your player's faces as the broom mops the floor with their snooty aristocrat or hapless baker. ;) Realistically anything is dangerous in the sort of game you've got planned, this will just make any potential TPK funnier.
Good luck,
GGG
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An old AD&D 1E module, "Treasure Hunt" N4, set in the Forgotten Realms, northeast of the Moonshaes (this fact was decided long after the module was published; nonetheless, the setting is not campaign-specific), starts players off at level 0. With the free 3E Conversion Guide, downloadable from the WoTC website, and some minimal creativity, you can play this with v.3.5 rules. The adventure is solid! Unrelated PCs are kidnapped by slavers; en route to their destination the ship is caught in a superstorm, wrecks in an Archipelego, and adventure ensues! You can get this off eBay, but sometimes it's pricey. $4 gets a digital copy, very good quality with no DMRs, right here from Paizo!
I am also trying to limit the pc classes in the region by allowing only the following in order reflect the 'frontierstyle'setting:sorceror,rogue,fighter,ranger,druid,cleric and paladin.
The other classes will need more specialzied training and resources which the holy realm does not have.maybe they have to go to the city of Westgate for this as a example. Or i can try the option from unearthed arcana that uses the npc classes as regular ones and the standard ones are made up as prestige classes.Any thoughts?
Yeah, I think that is cool that you are trying to do things that are frontier oriented, but where is the Barbarian, I think if anyone is going to be in the frontier it would be one of those guys. But, then again maybe they are trying to be more civilized.
I also think your religious reasons are good to have that be part of it. My personal villain would be a wizard or in your case an evil cleric that wished to gate in a whole lot of monsters into his town to take it over but somehow he was interrupted and the monsters appear in the PCs village instead. You can go from there if you want.Thats it for me
Later
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I am also trying to limit the pc classes in the region by allowing only the following in order reflect the 'frontierstyle'setting:sorceror,rogue,fighter,ranger,druid,cleric and paladin.
The other classes will need more specialzied training and resources which the holy realm does not have.maybe they have to go to the city of Westgate for this as a example. Or i can try the option from unearthed arcana that uses the npc classes as regular ones and the standard ones are made up as prestige classes.
Any thoughts?
Yeah, I think that is cool that you are trying to do things that are frontier oriented, but where is the Barbarian, I think if anyone is going to be in the frontier it would be one of those guys. But, then again maybe they are trying to be more civilized.
I also think your religious reasons are good to have that be part of it. My personal villain would be a wizard or in your case an evil cleric that wished to gate in a whole lot of monsters into his town to take it over but somehow he was interrupted and the monsters appear in the PCs village instead. You can go from there if you want.Thats it for me
Later
The reason i didn't include barbarians in the campaign is because other than the wild elves and wemics of the Guthmere forest region, i can't imagine barbarians dwelling within the 3 temple-farm/towns of the holy realm unless they're either recent converts to the other 5 faiths(which i don't see as very likely)or worshippers of Nobanion.
Granted while there are druids of Nobanion(Barely a half dozen in the holy realm) that might have a few barbarians serving as bodyguards or protectors of the sacred groves, the number of them compared to the rest of the population of 900 is (to me anyway)far too small to make this a class option for my campaign.
There's also a 0-level adventure in an old Dungeon... Below Vulture Point, but I forget the issue number.
MistaRyte
There's also a 0-level adventure in an old Dungeon... Below Vulture Point, but I forget the issue number.
MistaRyte
Is your full name Mistaryte Toynatalberkoykey?
Ultradan
There's also a 0-level adventure in an old Dungeon... Below Vulture Point, but I forget the issue number.
MistaRyte
Below Vulture Point was not 0 level. That said when you convert it to 3.5 its not quite a challange for 1st level players either. The main encounter in the adventure involves about 10 kobolds possibly with an Urd supporting them.
Whats an Urd?
I don't know... I never Urd of it either!
Ultradan
Please don't tell me thats supposed to be the real name of a person.There's also a 0-level adventure in an old Dungeon... Below Vulture Point, but I forget the issue number.
MistaRyte
Is your full name Mistaryte Toynatalberkoykey?
Ultradan
No, of course not... Think Bugs Bunny.
Ultradan
Whats an Urd?
Kobold plus. The Orog of Kobolds.
GGG
I can't seem to find it in any of the MM's or in Dragon. Any idea where it can be found?Whats an Urd?Kobold plus. The Orog of Kobolds.
GGG
Sorry, but no. It's a Faerun-thing and I'm not much into it, though apparently I know about Orogs. Wierd huh? As I recall they had wings or glid flaps or something (making them like Flinds, Orogs, and True or Gravetouched Ghouls; "monster plus" monsters). I'm not sure they were ever "properly" updated to 3.5. Anyone else know? I would be keen to see how close I am. Maybe a Google search would help.
GGG
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I can't seem to find it in any of the MM's or in Dragon. Any idea where it can be found?Whats an Urd?Kobold plus. The Orog of Kobolds.
GGG
Sorry, but no. It's a Faerun-thing and I'm not much into it, though apparently I know about Orogs. Wierd huh? As I recall they had wings or glid flaps or something (making them like Flinds, Orogs, and True or Gravetouched Ghouls; "monster plus" monsters). I'm not sure they were ever "properly" updated to 3.5. Anyone else know? I would be keen to see how close I am. Maybe a Google search would help.
GGG
I remember that adventure, and the urd, and you are right. Urd's are kobolds with wings.
Aren't Xvarts like kobolds but tougher?
Sebastian
I can't seem to find it in any of the MM's or in Dragon. Any idea where it can be found?Whats an Urd?Kobold plus. The Orog of Kobolds.
GGG
Sorry, but no. It's a Faerun-thing and I'm not much into it, though apparently I know about Orogs. Wierd huh? As I recall they had wings or glid flaps or something (making them like Flinds, Orogs, and True or Gravetouched Ghouls; "monster plus" monsters). I'm not sure they were ever "properly" updated to 3.5. Anyone else know? I would be keen to see how close I am. Maybe a Google search would help.
GGG
I remember that adventure, and the urd, and you are right. Urd's are kobolds with wings.
Aren't Xvarts like kobolds but tougher?
Sebastian
Not really. They were hobgoblins with a bite attack (old FF or MM2). More recently they became their own small humanoid race in the latest Dragon (339).
I found this after a quick google search over on ENWorld by everyone's favorite conversion expert BOZ (here's the link). Knowing what a stickler BOZ is on the conversions I've seen him do this should be close. Though if you want to avoid PCs turning into flying things with alter self you might consider making them Monstrous Humanoids instead of Humanoids.
GGG
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Not really. They were hobgoblins with a bite attack (old FF or MM2). More recently they became their own small humanoid race in the latest Dragon (339).I found this after a quick google search over on ENWorld by everyone's favorite conversion expert BOZ (here's the link). Knowing what a stickler BOZ is on the conversions I've seen him do this should be close. Though if you want to avoid PCs turning into flying things with alter self you might consider making them Monstrous Humanoids instead of Humanoids.
GGG
Doh. I let my Dragon subscription expire. And here I thought I was demonstrating amazing recall of trivial pre-3.0 facts.
The Under Illefarn module also had a section with advice for starting characters at 0-level. Other resources include a bunch of pdfs published by Plot Device called Unlikely Heroes (found at RPGNow.com) which gives variants on Commoners and Adepts. And Emerald Press also published a pdf called Commoners (also found at RPGNow.com). While I've not actually implemented them yet, they both have some good ideas.
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I now give you what my players and i had brainstormed with:
The Velauntur family:
1. Belaerra "Bel" Velauntur:Female Tethyrian human,Exp 1.The oldest of the identical twins by 5 minutes,she is the black sheep of the family because of her lack of religious piety. She is tolerated(barely) only due to her family's standing with the fellowship of the purple staff. Future class:Rogue.
2. Dalfae "Del" Velauntur: Female Tethyrian human,Apt 1(Selune).The younger of the twins, she has recently been accepted into the Temple of Our Lady In Silver as novice acolyte ,much to her parents' delight(and to her sister's annoyance). Future class:Cleric(Selune).
3. Terivar Velauntur: Male Tethyrian human,War 1. The older brother of the twins and oldest of the brood. He is a member of the town militia and aspires to become a paladin in the serivce of Helm. Future class:Paladin(Helm).
4. Dorn Velauntur: Male Tethyrian human,War 1. At 17,The youngest of the velauntur children,he is the cousin of the other siblings.He spends more time hunting than at home. Future class: Ranger.
Oh, almost forgot. One of the main villians in the campaign will Khurbok(from the fiendish footprints adventure)and his acolytes. I start playing this saturday. Wish me luck!