In a mid-level campaign setting, my PCs have started accumulating feats that allow them to maximize and empower one spell and breath weapon per day. I believe the feats are found in the Complete Book of the Arcane and the Dragonomicon (sp?). Anyway, consider this as a DM (me)... At any given encounter, the PCs are capable of delivering over 200 points of fire damage in one round to a fireball sized raidus of NPCs (if missed save) and even more with a "lingering breath weapon feat". I am finding it difficult to create encounters in the campaign setting that counter this kind of mass damage on a consistant basis. Before you go into ECL, multiple encounters (i.e. a crawl), and specialized monsters; I understand the logistics of creating tougher encounters, but it is beginning to become difficult to balance beefed up combat encounters with the scope of the campaign without overtly compensating for this kind of damage. Some might say what's good for the PCs is good for NPCs too, but in this case, you are talking about campaign-ending mass damage should NPCs bully back with these kinds of feats. Any thoughts or suggestions?
As ever,
ACE
The most important thing that I've learned while converting to v3.0 and then v3.5 is that the players have more time to "munchkinize" their characters than you do as DM to similarly tweak your monsters and NPCs.
Remember...in all fairness to your NPCs, they have access to all of the same feats as the characters - so why not build an NPC that's capable of doing the same damage in return? With equal offensive capability, it's just a matter of who strikes first or gets surprise. The inverse would be to build encounters that can survive that initial assault, but to do so would be metagaming as DM.
Another impression I get is that the party built their characters like that with the assumtion that they are able to rest and "reset" their 'big gun' for each battle... Why not wear them down with multiple encounters in a single day (subject to terrain and location, of course...)? I've worn down parties many times by having them use up their massive attack on the first ECL 8 monster they fight in "Room 1", only to have a second fight pop up in "Room 3" about ten minutes later, with an ECL 12 monster! Wandering monsters while the party tries to rest will only add to their misery...
Another angle - stealth. Have an invisible vampire attempt to dominate one of the fighters and have him turn on the spell caster...Charm and dominate person are VERY valuble tools to a DM who faces a group of min/max players! I once had a battle turn greatly in my favor when a pair of hags (who were losing badly to start out) managed to charm both of the front line fighters in the party - a half-Ogre and a troll!
Another angle - proximity. Design encounters that avoid open-field engagements and minimize ranged destruction; dungeons, ambushes at close range, invisibility, illusions, dimension door and ethereal jaunt can all negate a deadly ranged attack. Intelligent, high level monsters and NPCs know that high level spellcasters are deadly at range - they will have specific tactics to deal with them!
Player characters often have a set 'script' to open a battle (big spell/missile attack, close range, etc.); if you can ruin their opening script and break into their ranks on round 1, chaos will ensue! Let the party hammer the distant illusion of an advancing NPC group at 100 yards for 200 HPs, while the actual NPCs are advancing under a Mass Invisibility from behind...
Glove of Invulnerability works wonders, too...as will a well placed Wall of Force (how about 20 feet in front of the caster?)... ;-)
In summary: No player tactic is infallible...stacking their abilities too high in one area will leave them vulnerable to others. This is one big area where creative DMing and superior tactics will balance out any massive player assault.
hope this all helps,
M
How about some monsters that are immune to fire?
Maybe take the adventure onto the elemental plane of fire.
There are the standard options that do not necessarily increase CR, any NPC opponent with INT > 8 would use option 3.
1. take them to a fire dominant plane
2. fire immune or resistant creatures
3. Potions/spells of protection against elements/ resist elements
4. good reflex save opponents
5. multiple lower CR encounters (this way XP does not pile up quickly but they can still be tested)
6. retributive stike; there is a spell that deals HDd6 damage in 10 foot (?) radius if the target is killed. Javoc demons (MM2) have an aura of retribution and you can use them as kamakazi demons for a more powerful master.
7. greater invisibility, fly, magic missile from 500 feet directly above (even further with extend). With 5 sorcerers doing this you can do a whole lot of damage in a couple of rounds.
Ummmm if you are reluctant to go the traditional routes then you may want to consider using PC tactics against them. This discussionboard has multiple opinions about using PC tactics against them.
IMO what is good for the goose is good for the gander. I frequently hand craft powerful NPC combatants to include feats such as lingering breath weapons and greater spell focus evocation. Just be careful, doing this can turn the game into an arms race (I have seen it happen in a couple of campaigns).
Another avenue you might want to consider (esp. if you have LG types) is to have the NPC surrender as soon as it takes 50% HP damage.
Any other thoughts out there?
There are the standard options that do not necessarily increase CR, any NPC opponent with INT > 8 would use option 3.
1. take them to a fire dominant plane
2. fire immune or resistant creatures
3. Potions/spells of protection against elements/ resist elements
4. good reflex save opponents
5. multiple lower CR encounters (this way XP does not pile up quickly but they can still be tested)
6. retributive stike; there is a spell that deals HDd6 damage in 10 foot (?) radius if the target is killed. Javoc demons (MM2) have an aura of retribution and you can use them as kamakazi demons for a more powerful master.
7. greater invisibility, fly, magic missile from 500 feet directly above (even further with extend). With 5 sorcerers doing this you can do a whole lot of damage in a couple of rounds.Any other thoughts out there?
Actually, I really like both the illusion and wall of force ideas, rather than just putting a bunch of fire resistant creatures against them. The first ways are clever and will lead to the party watching out for this in the future while the latter seems like a dm metagaming tactic used to reign in too powerful PC's.
Basically, all I have to say is that NPC's do not live in a bubble. Take (sigh) the power puff girls cartoons. All these villins are trying to take them down and rule Townsville, but each knows what happens to the other villins when they fail. D&D is exactly like this in many, many campaigns. Someone is behind the minions that the PC's keep beating up, and you can bet they are watching -- and maybe, just maybe taking notes. Send a lower level minion (and crew) out with a ring of spell turning, or a rod of cancellation and see the results. If the NPC gets blown away - so what (I'm assuming that the magic item has disintegrated with 200 fire damage in this exchange)? The main villin might miss the item, but he'd have gathered a bit of intel on ways to defeat the PC's and that is VASTLY more important to him. It has the secondary effect if done cleverly to make the PC's wary of what tactic they will meet next, and who's behind them all anyway...
Actually, I really like both the illusion and wall of force ideas, rather than just putting a bunch of fire resistant creatures against them. The first ways are clever and will lead to the party watching out for this in the future while the latter seems like a dm metagaming tactic used to reign in too powerful PC's.
I believe that this is the crux of my dilemma. There are only so many ways to account for such an encounter buster tactic (apply this for all min/max type scinarios) that *are not contrived*. I agree with Ingi here because of the "outside the box" type thinking with use of the spells. The metagaming aspect of a relitively seamless campaign dictates that the most obvious busters are also the most unrealistic for experienced PCs. Recurring baddies are acceptable to expect be prepared for such an encounter, but a campaign that is decentralized makes the rate of encountering these kinds of NPCs somewhat marginal. In short, from a DM's perspective: for the PCs taking a relitively small amount of feats, skills, and abilitiy scores; it seems that the amount of NPC specialization to counter (or even survive) these kinds of tactics greatly narrows the *type* of combat encounter that will challenge the PCs beyond employing such a tactic and cleaning up the scraps of NPCs.
Thanks for the suggestions all.
As ever,
ACE
The illusion ideas are very nice but we could give some more specific ideas if we had a better idea or the campaign type.
So you have a decentralised campaign without reccurring NPC villains and a large number of 'random' encounters? But usually only one random encouter per day?
You in a city, caves, wilderness,...?
Material plane only?
without a central villain and no way for the NPCs to 'learn' about the tactics of the PCs it is difficult for NPCs to adjust their tactics to meet a new threats. If you let them just do their thing they might get bored of it and change tactics.
One thought I just had, you could start throwing them encounters with lots more lower CR creatures, that way only 10-50% would die in any one area effect, allowing the rest to close with the party and set up large amounts of flanking bonuses.
Example: instead of them facing one cloud giant (CR 10) you get them to encounter 9 tigers (each CR 4) and the tigers are hiding around a clearing in the trees or in the long grass.
Oh yeah and then there is the readied action to attack a spell caster who starts casting or readied dispel magic. Any caster worth their salt should be able to determine if the opponent is an artillery piece after the first round and adjust their tactics accordingly.
By decentralized campaign, i mean that there is an overarching theme for the PCs to puzzle out - the impending threat of an elder god being resurrected. The party is learning about history, contemporary events, and future events as the campaign progresses by traveling to different lands. The encounters vary from cityscape, dungeon, swamp, forest, and plains (as they should in a broad scope campaign). There is no central villan per se and we've always played the good/evil on a gradient (Vecna's and Paladins are only Evil and Good in point of perspective).
As far as the encounters have gone, the most challenging ones have been the opposite of the suggetion that you have posted...One cloud giant is better suited to thwart mass damage than 30 3rd level barbarians. This is an excellent example of how the mass damage min/max takes away a *type* of encounter. I've also found that the more space the PCs have on a battle board, the easier it is for them to calculate maxing out those abilities. Again, there are only so many dungen crawls and city battles to be had in a campaign...I see this kind of tactic to necessarily limit how encounters are run.
As ever,
ACE
Comment on metagaming by the DM:
This is a thin line...the DM doesn't necessarily metagame when he devises sharp countertactics for a party - he DOES represent intelligent, experienced, high level NPCs, you know...he must think as if he were a player, facing multiple DMs, as it were...
...but - if he devises sharp countertactics that are specifically designed to counterbalance the party's strengths and exploit their weaknesses, then he IS metagaming.
This is a very small grey area, no doubt crossed over before by many, but this also separates the experienced, veteran DMs from the newbies.
The ultimate goal for all should be high drama and much enjoyment, not having the game degenerate into an argument. If the game should ever become "DM vs. players" in its tone, it's time to leave the table.
M
...but - if he devises sharp countertactics that are specifically designed to counterbalance the party's strengths and exploit their weaknesses, then he IS metagaming.
I think I would largely agree with Marc’s comments, especially the last bit regarding the aspect of having fun. I suffer from similar quandaries; I imagine that most good DMs do also. I have four full-time players that run the gambit from pure role-play to pure roll-play – it’s the roll-player that we are all concerned about from a game balance standpoint.
In my campaign, this player does everything legally, however the player puts a lot of effort in exploiting the game in an effort to “win” in the most dominant fashion possible. Maybe this player has all of their chips in an un-hittable AC, maybe it’s an enormous damage potential, or maybe it’s a “first-strike, first-kill” capability. As previously pointed out in earlier messages, when this is done, it usually (but not always) results in trade-offs; this character is now susceptible to other attack forms.
I’ve considered two alternative ideas but have never acted on them:
1) The Avengers A – The munchkin PC is Thor and all the others are Hawkeye. After a while, Hawkeyes get tired of watching Thor take out the trash while they stand around with their hands in their pockets.
2) The Avengers B – The munchkin PC is Thor and all the others are Hawkeye. The Hawkeyes realize that hanging out with this cat could get them killed. Thor is on a whole different level. This is why Hawkeye never traveled to Niffleheim to battle the Hela the goddess of death with Thor.
Ultimately I have just tried to tell a good story and not let player balance get in the way of old-fashion fun. If the munchkin likes to win in a spectacular fashion every single time with little at risk, so be it. The players will resolve it amongst themselves.
But back to Marc’s comments about DM metagaming; I have only one disagreement on the post – an intelligent villain that has scouted his opponent, or even a villain of average intellect that is familiar with his opponent, would “devise a sharp counter-tactic that are specifically designed to counterbalance the party's strengths and exploit their weaknesses…” given of course that there is a counter-tactic and the villain could implement the tactic realistically.
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In a mid-level campaign setting, my PCs have started accumulating feats that allow them to maximize and empower one spell and breath weapon per day. I believe the feats are found in the Complete Book of the Arcane and the Dragonomicon (sp?). Anyway, consider this as a DM (me)... At any given encounter, the PCs are capable of delivering over 200 points of fire damage in one round to a fireball sized raidus of NPCs (if missed save) and even more with a "lingering breath weapon feat".
This is a little confusing to me. A maximized/empowered fireball should be doing around 77 points of damage (on average) once per day with the sudden feats.
I am not sure what kind of PC is doing a whole lot of breath damage or would be eligible for the monstrous feats. Even a half-dragon would never be able to get to this kind of damage potential with their breath weapon and I feel that the level adjustment doesn't make this race worthwhile to play as a PC anyway.
I really don't have too much of a problem with the sudden feats. If the character wants to "blow his wad" so to speak at one time -- so be it. I do have a problem with the breath weapon issue. I feel that you really need to re-evaluate the PCs and make sure that they are all fairly balanced.
As far as what to do -- The illusion thing works, but here are a few other thoughts:
Attack from a larger number of areas -- if the fireball is a 20 foot radius and the enemies are 30 feet apart, the best he can hope to do is take out one.
Evasion can be incredibly frustrating to a PC. Fireball is only a 3rd level spell. Most rogues (or similar) at close levels would be able to totally evade this damage. There are a good number of classes and prestige classes that offer this. Even the ranger now has that.
Have multiple encounters in a day. So many times we, as DMs, seem to feel that the party shouldn't have more than one encounter in a 24 hour period. The best fights that I remember are when the mages and clerics are tapped of spells and the mage has to pull out his masterworked crossbow.
Antimagic and/or Wild-Magic. Also things like minor globe of invulnerability, or spell immunity, etc. If I was a troll and I found an area of anti-magic -- I would make sure that my lair was there.
Good luck with your campaign.
Bill
As you say in your post you're not very sure about the books which contain the feats....?
Have you seen them and aren't your players abusing...?
Maybe you shouldn't have accepted those feats at the start for game balance.
Are the characters Dragons?, you speak about breath weapon, playing with very powerful races is difficult to keep in line the game.
Don't forget that opponents killed or routed too easily don't give xp, that's the rule.
Some might say what's good for the PCs is good for NPCs too, but in this case, you are talking about campaign-ending mass damage should NPCs bully back with these kinds of feats. Any thoughts or suggestions?
This is where I start seeing red flags. If you can't play back because you'd kill all your players then the feats are broken and you and your players have to sit down and fix them.
There should never be skills or feats in the game that are level appropreate that players can get that the NPCs have to stay away from for fear of killing the players.
Most of the intelligent, organized monsters or NPC's in my campaign make counter-spell tactics an integral part of their tactics. In a D&D world, where you know you're going to go up against spellcasters, you would take precautions against that and figure that the enemy spellcasters will try to hit you with a damaging spell right away.
The tactics my bad guys use when fighting the PC's usually involve keeping a reserve with a readied action to fire upon spellcasters that start casting a spell. At higher levels that tactic often involves levitate, invisibility and a bad ass missile weapon or another spellcaster himself.
My players know that spellcasters that reveal themselves as such on the battlefield are dogmeat if they're not real careful....it's just the way of the world. I think in a D&D world any combatants will be ready, in some way, for opposing spellcasters, so if you integrate these tactics into your campaign early, your players won't think you're metagaming if your bad guys take exceptional steps to avoid being fireballed.
Don't forget that opponents killed or routed too easily don't give xp, that's the rule.
Huh?
I know that the opposition had to present some kind of a threat (so you don't get experience for attacking the local orphanage) and after a certian level weak monsters are worthless but I don't think there is anything that says that an encounter that was meant to be a threat but went partucularly well is not worth XP. Of my players jump a baddie and the thief wins inititive, uses his backstab ability and pulls off a confirmed critical managing to drop the baddie in a single blow they'd still get experience - even though this fight could not have gone better.
Probably a more common course of events that most of us have seen is when the DM rolls really low for bad guys inititive - especially if the players have a surprise round. Most level appropreate encounters are in deep trouble if all the PCs get to go before the bad guys can do anything at all, esepcially if the PCs get to go twice when they have a suprise round.
...the latter seems like a dm metagaming tactic used to reign in too powerful PC's.
ACE
OK. Sometimes the DM <i>NEEDS</i> to metagame to reign in too powerful PCs. A subsequent post also talked about the subtle difference between running intelligent NPCs and metagaming to exploit a party's particular strengths and weaknesses.
Consider this: If a party strolls about the countryside, doing heroic deeds with a signature style that inflicts mass damage, people are going to be talking about them. The bad guys will eventually hear about them and prepare which, as you said, is running intelligent NPCs. So if the mage always leads off with a 200 pnt fireball, intelligent NPCs are going to be prepared.
Consider this as well: If a group of <i>players </i> find every encounter to be a cakewalk because what they are encountering is ill-equiped to deal with them, then the DM <i>needs</i> to make a quick adjustment or the game quickly becomes boring because there's no challenge.
I have had many instances as a DM where I decide mid-encounter to add an extra digit to a bad guy's hpts, or add a magical protective item or spell that the NPC didn't have written down ahead of time, because the PCs are rolling through the encounters too easily. Is this because I see it as me vs. them and I'm trying to "win"? No. It's because I can feel the energy and excitement drop around the table and they're getting bored.
So what would I do with a 200 pnt fireball? By the second or third time it gets used, half the baddies are toasted, but some are wearing an item that grants a fire resistance so they last a bit longer.
The DM's job (IMHO) is to balance the challenges the PCs face so that it's doable, but they have to work for it, so they feel they accomplished something when it's over. And sometimes, a DM needs to "metagame" to do that.
But back to Marc’s comments about DM metagaming; I have only one disagreement on the post – an intelligent villain that has scouted his opponent, or even a villain of average intellect that is familiar with his opponent, would “devise a sharp counter-tactic that are specifically designed to counterbalance the party's strengths and exploit their weaknesses…” given of course that there is a counter-tactic and the villain could implement the tactic realistically.
I agree with you 100%;
I was talking at the time in the context of fresh, unknown opponents...
OF COURSE, once an NPC party has clashed and survived a first encounter with the party, if they were to meet again down the road, they would have VERY SPECIFIC counter-tactics prepped and ready for them!
M
In a mid-level campaign setting, my PCs have started accumulating feats that allow them to maximize and empower one spell and breath weapon per day. I believe the feats are found in the Complete Book of the Arcane and the Dragonomicon (sp?). Anyway, consider this as a DM (me)... At any given encounter, the PCs are capable of delivering over 200 points of fire damage in one round to a fireball sized raidus of NPCs (if missed save) and even more with a "lingering breath weapon feat".
One question, why in the hell would your players have access to a lingering breath weapon feat if they aren't dragons. It is listed under dragons feats in the Draconomicon, not under PC feats, Is the Mage a dragon? Second observation about the feat. It is for Dragon's Breath weapons only. it doesn't stack on a spell.
As you say in your post you're not very sure about the books which contain the feats....?
Have you seen them and aren't your players abusing...?
Maybe you shouldn't have accepted those feats at the start for game balance.
Are the characters Dragons?, you speak about breath weapon, playing with very powerful races is difficult to keep in line the game.
Don't forget that opponents killed or routed too easily don't give xp, that's the rule.
Players aren't abusing - two mages, both with multiple feats allowing one maximized empowered spell per day and a half dragon with breath weapon and monstrous feats from Dragonomicon (sp?)
It's moot now about disallowing the feats, and we strayed from the core books long ago...so many suppliments...so many suppliments.The campaign itself is founded along racial lines - the group was encouraged to begin the campaign (1st level) as characters of different races.
I'm not sure what you mean about no XP...I've never seen that rule and it wouldn't be enforced anyway - overcoming a challenge set forth by the DM is XP worthy regardless of how it is solved. The onus is on the DM to make it challenging. Maybe this helps clear up some of the other concerns and comments about the party dynamic as well.
Another item that might help you better understand why the old "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" is a tough addage to apply. We are older gamers who play once a month (marathon sessions). A full campaign to 20th level has taken us a little over 2 years. From a metagame standpoint, the campaign can't suffer a campaign-ending encounter. Of course PCs die here and there, but nobody wants to start from scratch after investing a year and a half into a campaign.
Please keep in mind that this is a point of perspective - i understand that many gamers play every week and start up new campaigns on a regular basis (or just get together to crawl). For us older folks with families, in PhD programs, and in different cities; a campaign-ending encounter could dissolve over 15 years of gaming as a group. This is why i turned to the message board in hopes of getting some fresh ideas about how to manage the min/maxing in this scinario that aren't contrived or otherwise obviously metagamed PC busters. Already many good ideas have been dissiminated - thanks to all for posting
As ever,
ACE
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In a mid-level campaign setting, my PCs have started accumulating feats that allow them to maximize and empower one spell and breath weapon per day. At any given encounter, the PCs are capable of delivering over 200 points of fire damage in one round to a fireball sized raidus of NPCs (if missed save)
I am still having an issue with the 200 points in a round. I have a feeling that you/the players are not calculating the maximized/empowered correctly. Look at the maximized spell feat from the player's handbook again. It says that you take the maximized result and add it to half the normally rolled amount. They would still roll the dice and add half the result to 60 points for a fireball.
I also still wonder what kind of PC is using "lingering breath weapon". If one of the PCs is a dragon, then it really takes a whole lot of work to try and make sure that the other characters are balanced.
A few other thoughts about encounters --
Incorporeal creatures -- 50% chance to not take damage from a corporeal source. (Fudge the roll.)
Consequences -- If they are doing this kind of fireball on a regular basis, there should be a good number of forest fires, grassland fires, and/or burning of people's homes.
Take a really good look at the feats and make sure that all the calculations are correct -- and kill the dragon (assuming there is one in the group). Anything that noticable has got to have the biggest red bullseye painted on it.
Bill
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Players aren't abusing - two mages, both with multiple feats allowing one maximized empowered spell per day and a half dragon with breath weapon and monstrous feats from Dragonomicon (sp?)
A half dragon has a 6d8 breath weapon. Assuming that it is maximized and empowered, with an average roll of 27, the breath weapon should do right around 61 points of damage. Also, keep in mind the +3 level adjustment for being a half-dragon. If the rest of the group is 10th level, then he can pretty much only take 3 breath weapon feats and that is at the cost of many other feats.
I just feel that if you are needing to send cloud giants at the group to challenge the group, then it is no longer mid level, but should be considered high level.
Bill
Speaking of which you mentioned that this was a mid-level camapign but you posted that you were at level 20 after 2 years. Are you closer to level 10 or 20? There is a big difference in the amount of damage you can do with those 10 extra levels.
And I think you might have been exagerating about the 200 points, to make a point. I agree with other postings that your PCs should not be able to get more than about 90 points of damage in a single attack and that only once a day. Two encounters a day solves that problem.
I came up with another option, talk to the half dragon, if the PC is that powerful ask if they are willing to change to help balance the power. Ask if baleful polymorph to another species would be acceptable, maybe a halfling. This could be the result of a breath weapon setting fire to a druids private grove which angers the druid and causes retribution, but not crippling death.
Of course if some of this massive damage comes from magic items then maybe a villain will be smart enough to hire someone with a Spellguant (MM2, pg 188, CR 12) to destroy magic items. And then maybe reward the players with lesser items once the challenge has been faced.
Another idea, start throwing in some more traps. Sorerers and fighter types usually have low Reflex saves. The traps can be set in urban, wilderness or dungeon environments.
BTW, Ace...
I make it a house rule that no rule, feat, race, prestige class or ability will be allowed use by the players unless I have first read the text on it from the source and make a ruling on whether or not it will imbalance the game.
Once approved, I require the player to keep whatever supplement accessible, should there ever be any questions that come up over conflicting rules.
The burden of documentation is on the player, not you; as DM, you have the right to forbid ANY supplemental book and its rules that you don't approve of.
...I get the impression that your group is running away with the rules by overwhelming you with supplements, variant rules, races, classes, and hybrid mixing of all of the above.
You have to power to stop it.
M
BTW, Ace...
I make it a house rule that no rule, feat, race, prestige class or ability will be allowed use by the players unless I have first read the text on it from the source and make a ruling on whether or not it will imbalance the game.
Once approved, I require the player to keep whatever supplement accessible, should there ever be any questions that come up over conflicting rules.
The burden of documentation is on the player, not you; as DM, you have the right to forbid ANY supplemental book and its rules that you don't approve of.
...I get the impression that your group is running away with the rules by overwhelming you with supplements, variant rules, races, classes, and hybrid mixing of all of the above.
You have to power to stop it.
M
I'll look up the block stats on the PCs and the feats and abilities that allow the combo tonight when i get home and get back with you on the assessed damage.
I agree that the mix of races, feats, and rule varients become exponentially complex the more suppliments that are added, but the game boils down to everyone having fun and this kind of tweaking and min/maxing is fun for some of the PCs...others dont' care that much (like me, i'd rather create a story and role-play than worry about maximized empowered everything). But in the interest of maximized empowered enjoyment of the game, as long as it's by the books I should be able to integrate and compensate (as a good DM should). There have been some loopholes that need to be quashed...especially one involving a half minotaur (which by the way is the most unbalanced monstrous huminoid race that i've seen for a PC) with improved trip, knockdown, and a couple other feats and skills that i can't remember now...but that's a different thread. I think that the large amount of damage by 3 different PCs as a battle tactic isn't out of control, it just needs to be accounted for...
I'll get back to all re this tomorrow.
As ever,
ACE
Haven't read the entire thread yet but thought I'd toss my two cents in. The Sudden ... feats are extremely powerful for a number of reasons. IMHO the worst part is that the PCs can empower/maximize their highest level spells. The metamagic feats are designed to give lower level spells some more flexibility by allowing them to scale with level, extending their usefulness. The Sudden ... feats throw all that out. I consider it a very good idea to limit the use of the Sudden feats to spells that the PCs could normally use the metamagic feat on (i.e. a 5th level wizard can't sudden maximize a fireball until he is 11th level). Another limit is to make the PC take the corresponding metamagic as a prerequisite. These things make the feats much easier to handle and reduce the "blow your wad" effect they have that can make BBEG encounters underwhelming and anti-climactic.
Ok, just FYI here is the calculated damage scinario (just in case any of you min/maxers want a buster for your character):
Keep in mind that while the maximize and empower feats can be used with one spell, they function independently of one another.
2 10th level wizards both with sudden maximize and sudden empower feats casting fireballs calculated:
sudden maximize (60 dmg.) + Sudden empower (10d6 rolled avg. 30 for arguement sake)/2 (15 dmg.) = around 75 point of dmg PER FIREBALL
PLUS
1 half dragon fighter 10 cumultive levels and adjusted racial HD breathing racial breath weapon 6d8:
Empowered breath weapon = 48 points of damage
For a grand total of around 200 points of damage in one round.
To boot, the half dragon has both lingering and clinging breath weapon feats...the bad guys are virtually guarenteed to take secondary damage the next round of either 48 or 24.
Just FYI.
As ever,
ACE
2 10th level wizards both with sudden maximize and sudden empower feats casting fireballs calculated:
sudden maximize (60 dmg.) + Sudden empower (10d6 rolled avg. 30 for arguement sake)/2 (15 dmg.) = around 75 point of dmg PER FIREBALLPLUS
1 half dragon fighter 10 cumultive levels and adjusted racial HD breathing racial breath weapon 6d8:
Empowered breath weapon = 48 points of damageFor a grand total of around 200 points of damage in one round.
To boot, the half dragon has both lingering and clinging breath weapon feats...the bad guys are virtually guarenteed to take secondary damage the next round of either 48 or 24.
Just FYI.
As ever,
ACE
Considering that you have three 10th level characters all acting together, 200 HPs damage in a round doesn't sound so bad; the question is, are they fighting an EL 10-12 monster that can withstand that first round?
My guess is, if your monster can avoid/resist/deflect that first round, it should be able to mop up the party from then on, since the players have now blown their wad and have little else to back it up with.
Refer to all of the above posts for many useful suggestions on how to make the players burn up that crucial first round... (no pun)
;-)
M
I think your problem is part and parcel of the players knowing you won't pull a TPK and probably won't kill them very often at all. Generally speaking my experience with PCs is they usually try and horde their power. Especially things like pumped up one use powers. Since they never know if the next encounter is going to be worse or if there is a danger of this one substantially changing for the worse the usual mentality is to horde power and use it grudgingly.
So sudden maximized spells would not normally be whats used when a bad guy is first encountered but whats pulled out when the fighter takes a critical hit that reduces him to a third his hps in a single blow ... then the players freak out and start going for the big guns.
This behavior creates something of the illusion that many more encounters where challenging then was maybe the case. Individually an encounter like this seems challenging - after all the fighter was nearly dropped and it was hairy there for a few minutes ... when in reality the adversary would always have died if he had to suck down a maximized fireball ... its just that the players don't use that spell unless they get scared.
The reason they don't use it until scared is generally speaking due to fear that if they 'waste' it now they might not have it when they really need it in the next encounter - and if they don't have it they'll face the consequences by watching in horror as the DM kills their characters.
By removing most of the danger of your players having the floor moped with the party you have allowed your players to front load their characters with uber damaging spells and powers that they don't seem to hesitate much to use. Thus the illusion that each of the combats was really challenging is lost. You also encourage things like heavy offensive firepower and multiple mages over the more diverse skill set usually emphasized by a party to keep them alive. If they can't die - or the risk is greatly reduced - then the players are free to abuse the system without having to worry to much about the consequences.
The reality is unless you game is very story orientated you have to be willing to kill them if you want balance, in very story orientated games you can get around this and not face much consequence simply because the players need to master many more skills, spells etc. to effectively navigate the story - they can't afford to front load their PCs with firepower as they really need to use the feats, spells etc. on stuff that moves the story along - like silenced charm person and such.
I think your problem is part and parcel of the players knowing you won't pull a TPK and probably won't kill them very often at all. Generally speaking my experience with PCs is they usually try and horde their power. Especially things like pumped up one use powers. Since they never know if the next encounter is going to be worse or if there is a danger of this one substantially changing for the worse the usual mentality is to horde power and use it grudgingly.
So sudden maximized spells would not normally be whats used when a bad guy is first encountered but whats pulled out when the fighter takes a critical hit that reduces him to a third his hps in a single blow ... then the players freak out and start going for the big guns.
This behavior creates something of the illusion that many more encounters where challenging then was maybe the case. Individually an encounter like this seems challenging - after all the fighter was nearly dropped and it was hairy there for a few minutes ... when in reality the adversary would always have died if he had to suck down a maximized fireball ... its just that the players don't use that spell unless they get scared.
The reason they don't use it until scared is generally speaking due to fear that if they 'waste' it now they might not have it when they really need it in the next encounter - and if they don't have it they'll face the consequences by watching in horror as the DM kills their characters.
By removing most of the danger of your players having the floor moped with the party you have allowed your players to front load their characters with uber damaging spells and powers that they don't seem to hesitate much to use. Thus the illusion that each of the combats was really challenging is lost. You also encourage things like heavy offensive firepower and multiple mages over the more diverse skill set usually emphasized by a party to keep them alive. If they can't die - or the risk is greatly reduced - then the players are free to abuse the system without...
Jeremy makes excellent points. The threat of death has an unbelievable effect on character's actions. IMC characters had made friends people high up in the kingdom, these people were friends with high priests. Thus if they were killed resurrection was available not to mention the DM has allowed a secondary ninth level spell that causes no level to be lost. The cost only increases. Then the kingdom comes out with a decree that all resurrections will be subject to review because of the upset to diamond flow. It is not a question of if one can be resurrected but when. Suddenly brazen characters are much, much more timid and reserved. This change occuring without final death only delayed return.
Without game balance you will not have character balance.
Jeremy makes excellent points. The threat of death has an unbelievable effect on character's actions. IMC characters had made friends people high up in the kingdom, these people were friends with high priests. Thus if they were killed resurrection was available not to mention the DM has allowed a secondary ninth level spell that causes no level to be lost. The cost only increases. Then the kingdom comes out with a decree that all resurrections will be subject to review because of the upset to diamond flow. It is not a question of if one can be resurrected but when. Suddenly brazen characters are much, much more timid and reserved. This change occuring without final death only delayed return.
So your DM introduced a spell that negates the major penalty of being resurrected, and suddenly the PCs have little to no fear of death. Raise your hand if you see a correlation...
Without game balance you will not have character balance.
Amen, brother.
It seems that many of the complaints I've seen stem from DMs who either allow too many options for the PCs without correctly judging the impact on the game (understandable, given the breadth of options available), or decide a rule is harsh/stupid and make a house-rule to change/eliminate it without realizing the impact it has on game balance.
(Another option to shut down the easy resurrection mill in your campaign would be to make the remaining party members do a quest to earn the casting of the spell. Maybe the high priest wants to test their faithfulness or devotion, or wants to challenge them to do a deed equal to the one he performs for them.)
So your DM introduced a spell that negates the major penalty of being resurrected, and suddenly the PCs have little to no fear of death. Raise your hand if you see a correlation...
(Another option to shut down the easy resurrection mill in your campaign would be to make the remaining party members do a quest to earn the casting of the spell. Maybe the high priest wants to test their faithfulness or devotion, or wants to challenge them to do a deed equal to the one he performs for them.)
First point well taken...overt metagaming within the scope of the campaign is one of the worst ways for a DM to undermine the plausibility of the events and scinarios that the PCs encounter in-game.
As far as comments re the threat of death and dying go, I have two points to consider:
1) Character death is part of the game. It has happend on a handfull of occasions (4 PC deaths and one had to roll up a new character in avg. 10 levels) and will probably happen a handfull more times before the group reaches 20th level and we wrap up the campaign. The experienced PC understands that they will probably die once, if not multiple times in a campaign designed to progress to 20+ levels. The experienced PC also knows that to succeed in whatever task is presented them (the encounter), they must asses a multiplicity of factors going into the encounter and a short list of plausible outcomes. The group I game with are very smart individuals and well versed in problem solving, number crunching, and role playing. Tactically, the group tends to min/max even the odds and opportuinites afforded by any given encounter. Quick plan then implement it. In short, everyone is aware of roles, capabilities, and outcomes of an encounter and this affords each PC to trust that the group can at the very least survive whatever challenge(s) are presented. While we all know that sometimes a PC will not survive, the group will...it MUST. Thus, they can afford to use whatever tactics they feel will optimize the encounter...and trust that they will have the capability to survive future encounters if powered down.
2. A much shorter point, while it has happened once in this campaign, it is extremely uncool for a PC to die an hour into a 15 hour session and be forced to sit out 8 hours or more to be raised/ressurected. This is something that NEEDS to be metagamed as well.
As ever,
ACE
PS - if anyone else has interesting ideas on how NPCs can get around the mass damage, please send them in. I like the wall of force and illusion tactics...need some more
Can i just make a small suggestion. The next time you run a game put them up against a bad guy that when they pull this attack, he is standing there in the center of the blast smiling when the smoke clears. Right before he beats the snot out of them. I think that your biggest problem is that you haven't forced them to develope new tactics out of nesesity. As long as fireballs work for them, they will keep using them. In my world, magical items the grant full fire immunity are extreamly common. Even throwing a fireball into a pack of Kobolds isn't guarnteeing that the fire will effect them all. It makes my mages choose a wider range of spells.
Second. Your bad guys don't have to have fought the group before to prep for them. Your players shouldn't be treated as if they are the only adventuring group in you world. Think of it as a case of if their group is using this feat combo, others are too. ANd the evil powers that be will begin changing their tactics to maintain the upper hand in the word. Is it Metagaming. Your g%!&+@n right it is. You are the Dm, not the player. In your world you are God and you are Omnipotent. You know all and see all. If your players cry about it too much, explain to them that they are dealing with an enemy that has a vast network of spys and agents that keep tabs on adventuring parties that may cross their paths. The PCs aren't the only ones who can do recon and scrying of the enemy. And I'm not saying that htere has to be a TPK, but if you do it right, your players NEED to think that it is possible!
Blackdragon makes good points. Tactics have always evolved to face the threats of the day. In a D&D world, any tribe of hobgoblins or town militia or three ogres named Bob are going to be aware that they will have to fight spellcasters eventually...maybe they fight them frequently. They will plan for that, even if the plan is just "Okay, Bill the hillgiant, go up there on that draw and if you see somebody moving their hands and talking to themselves, throw this big rock at them."
Unless mages are super-rare in your campaign world, most everyone is going to have some tactics prepared to deal with them...it's not like your adventuring party got dropped into 14th century Europe.
LOL - yesterday i stewed about this so much that i pretty much got nothing done here at work during the afternoon...oh well, thanks for keeping things interesting here all!
As ever,
ACE
I like the jovoc idea. Drop a whole army of those little sadistic freaks on them and see how they like it. Just make sure they are within the demons' auras to be affected. Of coure, you WILL be facing a TPK with an army of those things, almost no way around it. :) Thank you, Abyssal powers that be!
LOL - yesterday i stewed about this so much that i pretty much got nothing done here at work during the afternoon...oh well, thanks for keeping things interesting here all!
As ever,
ACE
During the holidays very little gets done at most work places anyway, so don't feel bad about it!
I don't know how you run your game. But most of the encounters I can conceive of don't hapen randomly - they happen on the bad guys turf - because the adventurers are out looking for something.
Tackling bad guys on their own turf provides lots of opportunity for those bad guys to prepare. Assuming they are smart enough to know they have something worth protecting and that they live in a world were adventurers might be interested in those things - traps, defenses, contigency plans, withdraawal routes, alliances with neighboring creatures, etc.
Seems to me that fire is a pretty common weapon to be prepared against. There is a lot more to combat than how much damage can be dealt in round - speed for example - move and shot outside their range - wear them down drive them into a trap, use poison, anti magic areas - or a even a bigoted dragon that loathes half-breeds.
I don't know how you run your game. But most of the encounters I can conceive of don't hapen randomly - they happen on the bad guys turf - because the adventurers are out looking for something.
Tackling bad guys on their own turf provides lots of opportunity for those bad guys to prepare. Assuming they are smart enough to know they have something worth protecting and that they live in a world were adventurers might be interested in those things - traps, defenses, contigency plans, withdraawal routes, alliances with neighboring creatures, etc.
Seems to me that fire is a pretty common weapon to be prepared against. There is a lot more to combat than how much damage can be dealt in round - speed for example - move and shot outside their range - wear them down drive them into a trap, use poison, anti magic areas - or a even a bigoted dragon that loathes half-breeds.
Amen Brother!
Lots of great ideas here. My suggestion is to do the "Zergling rush" - swarm creatures that just keep coming at you.