My first non-core book that I bought was DMG II-autographed by James Jacobs. Very nice book, very rudimentary index.
Then I bought the Miniatures Handbook, the Complete Adventurer and the Heroes of Battle books. None of them have an index.
I won't be buying any more WotC rule books. To me, not having an index in the back of a game rule book is just totally unacceptable. They're not novels, they're technical manuals--no index in a technical manual? WTF???
I may buy future WotC fluff books, but no more rule books unless someone really convinces me that it has an index or really doesn't need one.
Anyone else mad about this? Maybe you can convince me why I'm overreacting and should cut Wizards some slack, but c'mon--no index???
No index is no fun. End of story.
I find myself sometimes checking a book three times for an index before it finally sinks in that the WoTC no longer love me.
This very discussion came up, actually, during a discussion with WotC during GenCon this past summer. The summary of the conversation was that WotC was surprised so many people wanted an index - even after they were told having one would entail fewer pages of content. I've seen changes from WotC before based upon feedback at GenCon, so it's possible books will start having indexes again.
That said, there are some books where I'll agree with WotC that no index is needed. Let's take Complete Warrior as an example of the sort of book I mean. Prestige classes are all in the same chapter, sorted alphabetically; feats are all in the same chapter, sorted alphabetically. Spells are all... oh, you get the idea by now. ;) The table of contents in these books is sufficient for tracking down information, at least for me.
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As a long time player of Champions, where once they could barely spell index, let alone create one, I've become somewhat inured to whether or not there is any index in a book.
That said, I really appreciate any book that has an index to no end. Working as a technical writer, I know what kind of pain it is to create an index and have a full appreciation of the work being done.
Would no index keep me from buying a book? Depends on the rest of the contents and how well the book is laid out. Good organization leads to much forgiveness. Poor organization leads to confusion, and confusion leads to anger and righteous butt-kicking. Or at least the failed sale of a product, which for marketing types is almost the same thing.
;D
Huh. I always thought anger lead to hate, and hate lead to the Dark Side. :)
I may buy WotC books as PDF's...at least I can do a keyword search using Acrobat, but no more hard copies unless they have an index...unless they're just really cool :-)
I may buy that comprehensive spell book that's coming out soon, because a book that's just a list of spells won't need an index, obviously.
Okay, so maybe I'm calming down a little bit...but not having an index in a $30+ technical manual still sucks.
Here, here!!!!!
I LIVE by indexes. Alot of times I can remember what things basically do or whatnot, but I need a little clarification. So I go looking for an index. It is integral to quick reference.
That brings to mind my concept of them doing a feat or skill compendium like the spell ones so we can get them all in one easy place.
Luke - I'll play Devil's Advocate to your point.
My wife and I were recently making new 10th level characters for a game. She wanted to play something combat oriented that she could use the Ranger class with. So I told her there was a prestige class in Complete Adventurer called the Tempest, and one in Complete Warrior called the Dervish. Both of those have advantages when combined with two-weapon fighting.
It took her all of about 30 seconds to find each prestige class; an index wouldn't have made a difference. I think a lot of books are like that, where an index won't matter.
my two cents worth..
if a book has a complete table of contents, i dont think it needs an index as well
that would be rather redundant
my two cents worth..
if a book has a complete table of contents, i dont think it needs an index as well
that would be rather redundant
There is a difference though.
I use a WoTC TOC for locating a larger game concept. I use an index to look up a word that I know will usually lead me to a smaller concept that didn't would never gets its own TOC entry.
Sometimes the TOC puts me in range of the content I seek and then I just have to skim five pages to find my quarry, but an index tends to drop me on the specific page.
I'm looking at Stormwrack right now and sure, its a simpler book, like so many they've produced recently... and sure I could find anything in this book in less than forty seconds. However an index would halve that time.
I guess us index guys are just speed junkies. We wants us our answers and we wants 'em now. ;)
Totally agree with Jade...an extra 20 seconds of page flipping while running a game is not fun, not for me, not for my players.
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my two cents worth..
if a book has a complete table of contents, i dont think it needs an index as well
that would be rather redundant
Uhh, so untrue!
I tried to find some really specific in the SHARN: CITY OF TOWERS book which I couldn't by searching the TOC. IMPOSSIBLE!I was so angry when I opened up this book and found out, that an index was missing! (at least there is a downloadable pdf file somehwere on the WotC site).
And with the Heroes Books they did it again,
and with the Explorers Handbook again,
and with Magic of Eberron again,
and with the Libirs Mortis again,
and with Stormwrack again,
and with Lords of Madness as well,
and with future books...???...???
Hey WotC - bring back the indexes!!! I would gladly miss one or two pages of new feats in order to have the indexes again...REALLY!!!
INDEXES FOR PRESIDENT!!! ;)
index = da bomb.
no index = harder to use.
I love indexes and I wish they had them in every book, but indexes take time, and by extention, money, to create, and in the interest of profit margin you are not likely to see them in any book that WOTC doesn't think a large number of poeple are going to buy.
Indexes are much more in depth than tables of contents, which only lead you to headings, not to specific names within the text.
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an Index should be second only to content when it comes to making these books. I can find a ton of wasted space repeating info in multiple books, or fluffing sections which could be slimmed down. Take the time. money and paper it takes to do those sections and add an index. In all I feel that the loss of an index in the D&D books today is a crime.
I would really, really like a return of indexes for most books. As Z said, some would be redundant (like the Spell Compendium), but for most (ESPECIALLY world books)indicies are almost vital.
Just please don't harrass the writers about it, cause it's really not our call. :-)
-Amber S.
The problem with Table of Contents is they go in order of where things appear. It is more timely and efficient if I can navigate by alphebtical order. Personally, I gotta have the index.
Yes, return the indexes, WotC!
Maybe we need to start a poll.
Even I, with my faster-than-light reflexes, think the index should be a part of every rulebook. It's just faster.
Ultradan
what about a glossary and index combined?
define any new words or terms used in that book and say what page or pages it is on would be helpful as well
While I am not averse to letting WOTC how much we value indexes, I don't look for them to put them back, at least not in every book. I am sure that they did an analysis of the time it takes in the editorial process, and the number of people that don't even notice if there is an index, let alone would not buy a book without one, and they find that the abbreviated man hours applied to the book makes the book more profitable, not less, and that is what the bottom line for a business is.
And no, the writers have no control over this. In fact, the editors likely don't either, if I am right about the concious decicion to make the book more cost effective.
I suppose so--since I actually bought three rule books without indices in them before I noticed and got perturbed. I just didn't think a D&D rule book without an index would ever be written by the company that owns the brand, whether TSR or WotC.
If not putting in an index saves such a tremendous amount of money, why not take it a step further and just go straight to PDF?
Because not putting in an index does not significantly affect overall sales, but not having a hard copy does (if nothing else, there are still buyers that do not have regular access to computers, and others that do not the the appropriate connectivity to make downloading a PDF a realistic prospect). Plus, even though I could download PDFs in this manner, and I have bought some 2nd Edition PDFs for reference, as far as books to use in the game I neither want to print out said books nor aquire a laptop just to be able to bring said books to the game session. PDFs still aren't a practical replacement for hard copies, but are a desireable alternative for supplemental information.
But all of that is just my take on it. I'm not employed by WOTC or Hasbro, so I could be way off base, but I think I am actually pretty close to the mark.
Yeah, sounds reasonable...unfortunately.
Normally, I do not mind the lack of indices where the book is reasonably well organized and I'm somewhat familiar with the content (the aforementioned Spell Compendium would be an example of unnecessary indices). However, I recently purchased "City of Splendors: Watedeep" and I am insanely frustrated by its lack of indexing. I'm not at all familiar with Waterdeep, and having to flip back and forth through multiple chapters where the organization makes me scratch my head, going "uhhhh...." all the while is not cool. Even though I know there's no index, I keep flipping to the back of the book hoping there is. GRRRR!!
I say, give up a few pages (use smaller fonts, whatevah), and gimme back my index.
On a side note, the Waterdeep book did not include a poster-map of Waterdeep. Very annoying, as the wards of the city are split up into the various chapters of the book. This would not be so bad if I could see all of the aforementioned wards at once. GRRR again.
On a side note, the Waterdeep book did not include a poster-map of Waterdeep. Very annoying, as the wards of the city are split up into the various chapters of the book. This would not be so bad if I could see all of the aforementioned wards at once. GRRR again.
Consider spending $4 for the City System boxed PDF from 2nd edition--I believe it has a poster map of Waterdeep and even a 3-D bird's eye view map, which is awesomely attractive. I have mine still.
Wait--one of the maps came from Waterdeep & the North FR supplement from 1st edition ('88 I believe)...either way, I think you can get the PDF for $4.
Just to add my $0.02... With the ever-lower page count in many of the new rule books (Heroes series, for example) an index might be unnecessary. I often tab the pages of my rulebooks for things that I'll need to find again. However, many of the recent FR products are in desperate need of an index. The Lost Empires of Faeurun book has several chapters describing various elven kingdoms and empires. Since I am not Ed Greenwood, nor have I memorized the entire history of Faerun, it takes several minutes sometimes to look up the relevant information (is Nikerymath in the chapter on the North, the South, the West, or the Crown Wars?). This is all the more irritating in light of the fact that the FR Campaign setting has an excellent index.
That's a good point. Some of those books have precious little rules to index.
However, in book publishing, any reference is supposed to have an index. It seems they shoould follow the norm.
As others have said, the TOC does not perform the same function as an index, and is not a substitute.
For an experienced book publisher, this is an omission of spectacular magnitude. Professionals don't make that mistake, and certainly not more than once.
I just don't get it.
Jack
perturbed at numerous WotC decisions and policies :(
it's not just the rules that need to be indexed, but the flavor as well.
"hmm, now what page was the info for that town on again... damn, guess i'll need a half hour to flip through the book since it's not in the ToC!"
Yeah, I just leafed through Stormwrack the other day and it looks pretty interesting. I guess I'll just have to make my own index and still buy it--but how annoying is that??
I tried to find some really specific in the SHARN: CITY OF TOWERS book which I couldn't by searching the TOC. IMPOSSIBLE!
I was so angry when I opened up this book and found out, that an index was missing! (at least there is a downloadable pdf file somehwere on the WotC site).
I don't know where it is on WotC's site but Rich Baker got the okay from WotC to post an index to Sharn on his own site:
http://www.bossythecow.com/sharnindex.htm
I vote *YES* for an index in a book. Even for the smaller books (i.e. the Complete series) as I don't see it killing pagecounts so drastically since an index a a couple of pages at best (unless the book is huge like the FRCS or the Core books.) I was annoyed with Five Nations being index-less. Maybe Slavisek'll whip one up for a download somewhere (I don't think he has a site.)
- Chris Shadowens
now that's a semi-acceptible substitute. if it's too much trouble to print an index in a book, at least post one online somewhere. then, people can print it out and stuff it in the back. ;)
I would be happy with that--a downloadable index--such a feature may even help convince people to buy the book(s) since they can get an overview of what's inside.