This is continuing the discussion started on thread entitled something like "Why do people hate Star Wars d20", which turned into a "Well My Star Wars is Better than Your Star Wars, Is Not, Is So, Nahaa" thread. So I am officially moving this fascinating discourse here. I will warn you in advance that this post/thread will be long and rambling, and more than half incomplete but since you are a Star Wars Fan or Trash Talker you will read it anyway and then post something.
You've been warned.
The following was my email retort to a friend's assertion that Attack of the Clones was a good movie that cleaned up all the problems from the previous Phantom Menace. It is dated July 3, 2003
My turn please.
First though I would like to set a few things straight. Uno, I have not visited the hypertext site nor read any of its content because quite frankly I don't have the time to waste. In fact I am discounting the thing out of hand as a morass of useless sheep's puke. Second, though I am apparently enough of a geek to name my email box after the bounty hunter that I occasionally play in both home and a sanctioned tournament games, and that I won the first and only time I played Star Wars Trivial Pursuit, I myself have not lost all my senses and joined some fantical fan boy cult that offers up Hasbro light sabered victims on an altar to the Great Old One, George Lucas.
So to the chase.
As a movie I didn't like it much. My reasons are many and varied, but on the whole they stem from the fact that George is breaking Yoda's Writer's Rules for Writing Number 1: "Show, Do Not Tell. There is no tell."
Now tell me if I am wrong, but it probably went like this (I even have the DVD interviews to back some of this up.)
1) George writes Star Wars back in 197?. Comes up with a ton of great stuff, and where it all comes from. He realized he was onto something big and flew with it. He comes up with the characters and scenes and backgrounds for his Campbellian Mono-mythic add on. He has enough stuff to do a passel of movies. Great. We're cool so far.
2) "Well, I can only do one movie at a time." He says to himself. Where do I start. "How about the really really Campbellian one? Its got that farm boy and the old guy and the Death Star/Underworld and everything. Neato! (Hey, that sounds like a great name! I've got to write that down. NEATO!)"
3) "That turned out really well. Although some people complained that my dialogue was bad. i.e. 'flying through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops' and 'Govenor Tarkin's foul stench' and whatnot."
4) "Wow! the second one was even better. It was dark didn't
pander and I didn't even have to write it."
5) "Cool we wrapped up all the loose ends with the third one."
Many Years Later....
6) "Ah. technology has just gotten to the sweet spot. I think
I'll go back and make the first three movies and explain everything.
No, no, no, no. You never explain things! When you write a book or shoot a film you never ever, ever explain anything. You tell a story and allow the audience to figure out stuff along the way. Case in point Lin Carter is so far the least likable Mythos writer I have encountered within the Lovecraft circle. Why? Because he writes like a fan
boy (Apparently there were fan boys before comic books. Go figure.) He tries to make sense of the Cthulhu Mythos. Why do I find that a stupid thing to do? Well, the obvious one is that its all one great big fabrication. It's a writing device that Lovecraft and his friends partook of to add a backdrop to their tales, to make them seem more real. It is a meme, an idea that transcends the page it is written on. Lin Carter
spent most of his time explaining how it all worked not in telling any compelling stories about people, or self-discovery, or even the horrific idea that man in all of his splendor was not the center of the universe and that the laws which we hold as firm and inflexible can be turned upside down by beings who look upon us as we might look upon bacteria or a bit of lint on our cuff. Second, the Mythos like any real
and living mythic cycle was wrought with inconsistencies. It was a writing device after all not the Declaration of Independence. Lin however had the fan boy's (and I guess this speaks to my definition of "fan boy") need to put all the Mythos entities into their own pigeon holes and tidy things up. However in doing so he not only showed us the magician's book of secrets he didn't tell us anything we couldn't have done without. In fact, I am of the conviction that he may have wasted my time some thirty years before I was born.
Lucas in my estimation has done little better.
He didn't loose his mind. He lost his focus. When he was coming up with all that cool stuff for the first three films (real time). He had this grand built-in background of Clone Wars, Blue-clad citadel guards, the Republic, Jedi Knights, the Force, the betrayal of Anikin Skywalker, etc... All of it really great stuff, stuck in the back of his head and tucked into the corners of those three movies. Great stuff that
you didn't see with your eyes as much as you felt within the places you went and the characters that you met. There was a pattern overlayed upon another pattern like the layers of a finely done oil painting. There was a texture. When you strip away the Rebellion Movies, you are left with the base coat which has nothing but white canvas to rest on. Suddenly
our painted illusion has grown thin. There is no substance underneath and I don't really feel for anyone.
Sure I am intrigued by the future Emperor's plots and love seeing Obi-Won in his prime (although he's fed some god awful dialogue), but really that's about it. I liked the parallel drawn between Anikin who looses the one parent he will ever know and young Boba Fett who is in the same situation, but they didn't go anywhere with it. And that the poor
guy they've got playing Anikin. That scene when Amidala is packing her things to go home is so awkward I squirm just thinking about it. I honestly don't think it is directing that is to blame. It's the writing.
Granted neither of us is in any position to judge to harshly, but I know for a fact that I am not alone on this one.
Well, I (and you probably do too) think I've gone on long enough. It certainly wasn't as bad as Hobgoblins but neither was it great Star Wars. So how about that other sequel that's coming out this year were we will once again here Christopher Lee talk about another "Dark Lord."
End of Excerpt.
I am not going to get into a debate about realism and why Star Wars is better or worse than Star Trek or Farscape, Firefly MST3k Doctor Who or My Favorite Martian because they are all different beasts. Star Wars being a space fantasy (with laser swords, ships that make noise in space, lasers that make noise, etc.... Nor am I going to delve into minutia like how the various sword fighting styles evolved to make light saber contests look more impressive. If you want sword fighting watch the The Four Musketeers or watch Basil Rathbone go toe to toe with Errol Flynn, in Robin Hood sometime and if you think I'm speaking treason when I say something that old can compare with an uber-special effects banaza like like episodes I and II, you're right I do speak treason -fluently.
I just want to talk about how they rate as movies. Period. Did you enjoy yourself? Where you swept up in the drama? Did you laugh? Did you cry? Did you feel for the characters? Was it exciting?
Personally I just groaned through the big ground battles in Episode I and II. Give me the "Don't get cocky kid!" battle any day. Sure I play the RPG games and know everyone’s stats like the back of my hand and someone will say "but most humble and magnanimous lord of all he surveys, there where only four tie fighters and we all know that they can't his the side of a space barn." To which after have more peel grapes I would respond "Use your imagination and where are my grapes!?!" I mean really is it even remotely possible that a person could know too much about the Star Wars universe? So much that the movies, which for the most part are supposed to be fun romps just become exercises in d8+2 Blaster shots and AoO's with a light saber? That and I just can't get all worked up about one obviously CG army of battle droids fighting another CG army made up of the same five gungans though I still enjoyed that far more the freaking horrible C3PO one-liners in the arena scene in episode the second.
That scene deserves its own thread for how bad it was. The creepy sand "gets everywhere" scene, the "I am good enough to be a jedi" (did anyone ever get the impression that Obi-Wan and Anikin got along let alone were friends until Episode Three?), and Padme's reaction to the "I killed them all." scene pale compared to how horrible the arena scene went.
You would think that adding jedi to a scene would be cool, until they all start posing like they are on the cover of a WWE magazine. And if they were all over the place how did they get into the center of the arena to do their reenactment of the charge in Braveheart. And Kip Fisto (isn't his arch enemy Mr. Bill?). A jedi is to have the most serious mind.... No, I think I'll just grin like a weasel on speed for this whole scene. "But oh great one, his race has a permanent rictus, It says so in this incredibly hard to find interview with set directors second cousin's-" "Grapes!!!" Writers and directors can control those sorts of things - especially when they are the same person! How would it have looked if in Fellowship of the Ring Sean Bean as Boromir was lying there dying near the Anduin after slaying twenty orcs and he was wearing a huge purple pimp's hat? But even worse than that on some people's list of complaints is C3PO's impression of Gerald Ford doing an impression of Henny Youngman. It was almost as bad as watching Greedo shoot first and having Han not even notice or register the fact. I guess those are my biggest gripes with Attack of the Clones, which had in its favor the dogfight between Obi-Wan and Jango, a straight up fight between the two and very decent series of light saber battles with the ill-named Count Dooku with Christoper Lee who was relegated to about five minutes of screen time at the end of the movie. Episode II trails in my Star Wars movie rankings somewhere behind the two Ewok Movies, (but still much better than the Christmas Special). "This party's over" -Shaft, I think.
Episode I has grown on me a bit, but reducing the Force down to a midichlorine count seems a bit too scientific and the explanation leaves me longing for my math test to begin. Don't explain stuff let it just happen. The audience will figure it out. The pacing is a bit slow in parts as well with stuff slowing down when it should have been picking up.
Once again though the dialogue and in young Ani's case the execution of it is quite dreadful at points. "Are you and angel?", "That is the sound of a thousand terrible things." "A communications disruption...", "A particularly dangerous dug.", "What was it?" (he looked more like a who to me) "Yipee." are the ones I can think of off the top of my head - oh, and going through "dah planet's core" seems like it might be stretching the fantasy aspect a bit too far. I'm mean shouldn't it be hot down there?
Episode three is by far the best of the new bunch. I think it was HK who said that the seventies hair style in Episode IV looked dated, but I wonder what people will think about the "big ole jedi mullets" (to quote Ewain McGreggor) a few years from now. Once again my problems lie more with directing and writing rather than the special effects. Lines like the "Noooooo!" make me want to say the same but instead I'll just drop to my knees and weep on the inside the way I wished Vader had done in that scene. Still this one ranks in the top 3 or four of Star Wars films for me at least because they at least looked like they where having fun making it (except perhaps for poor Padme who got shuffled off to the side.) Like the other prequel episodes it looked at times like they where trying to force things into the plot (really was Chewbacca really so important that they had to marginalize other characters that this part of the story is supposed to really be about? The same goes C3PO and R2-D2 I don't mind them being here I just think they should have served more purpose as they did in the later -err, earlier uh, umm, well you know what I mean.
If I were to rank the movies (and it is possible to do that they are movies after all) they would probably go like this:
Empire Strikes Back (Fun dialogue, cool action scenes)
Star Wars You can call it A New Hope if you want to, but sans the Slimfast Jabba, quick-fingered Greedo and that really lame Boba Fett walk on. For a second I thought he might wave to the audience and say "Hi kids!"
Toss up betwixt Return of the Jedi and Revenge of the Sith though I don't recall cringing at Return where as Revenge did make me cringe once or twice.
Phantom Menace I really don't mind Jar Jar that much, and Darth Maul looked as cool Boba Fett did. I still get shivers when the doors open up on him or when Qui Gon shoves his light saber though the blast doors. Maybe I'll put this one up in the toss up for third.
Last and least by a bit of a margin for the above stated reasons Attack of the Clones.
Oh well, time for more grapes.
Hopefully they are not sour,
GGG
Well, I guess you can label me a trash-talker for what I'm about to say regarding the whole Star Wars thing. . .
Part I of Post - My Entire Life Story
I really enojyed the first three movies. . . they were fun to watch, and if you couldn't sleep, you could pop one into you VCR, snuggle onto the couch, and drift off to the sounds of Dak getting wiped out at the Battle of Hoth. I also nursed many a Saturday morning hangover watching the OT in college. Palpatine's silky smooth voice was like taking two aspirin, especially when I could recite the lines along with him.
Of course Empire is my favorite. I think most of the lines ring true, and one of my favorite moments was when Han tries to convince Leia that he's a nice man. . . it's a quiet, sweet scene that really brings out the vulnerabilities in the characters without breaking Yoda's "Show or show not, there is no Tell" rule. The movie is full of those true scenes.
Speaking of Yoda, Empire is also HIS best movie. That little puppet showed more power standing silently in the swamps of Dagobah, his hands on his walking stick and speaking softly with dignity and respect, than he ever did flipping around with his lightsaber against the Emperor. It was much more difficult for me to respect him when he's acting like a little green space monkey with a glowing stick.
Anyway, back to the trash talking. . . Flash forward to the summer of 1999, I was very exited about the first new flick. I rode the wave of the movie, and saw it three times at the big screen. I wanted to feel the same way I feel when I watched the first three. It certainly wasn't perfect, but as it was laying groundwork, I could forgive it. Besides, it was just a movie with the primary motivation of making a TON of money (nothing at all wrong with that). If it's successful, than Lucas makes the second one. If it flops, then back to the drawing board, right? Well, the public spoke to the tune of 400+ million domestic gross. . . hence Episode Two. Don't blame Lucas, blame the proles.
Summer of 2002, I saw Attack once in the theatre, and forgot about it in about two weeks. By that time, I had written a couple of screenplays of my own, and I had a better sense of the process behind story, plot, character, themes, etc. Maybe it's my own fault, but that was also around the time I stopped losing myself in movies as easily. Now, I have a critical eye that hurts what should otherwise be fun, visceral experiences in movies. In any case, the absolute horror of this movie's acting and dialogue was just too glaring to ignore. Plus, I had seen Fellowship of the Rings. . . how can you compete?
Summer of 2005 - I saw Revenge twice in the theatre, and I liked it alot. Other than this recent debate, this movie will stick in my mind about as strongly as Van Helsing did. Does anyone remember that one? I have a vague recollection. . .
Part II of Post - Aesop Spins in His Grave
I loved the first three movies, for a combination of reasons that I don't feel compelled to justify (that could be a lie). They existed for me at a formative time, and they're still there, doing what they do whenever I need to sit back and forget my troubles.
What I won't do is try to make the first three movies into more than what they are, just because I want to feel more of that childhood nostaliga. You can't force these things. . . they either affect you or they don't. I want to look to the future for inspiration, and not rehash the past glories of cute concepts. The Star Wars universe is a campy, fun place, but I feel no compulsion to learn more about it. I especially don't care about the fates of countless Cantina muppets and it doens't impress me to finally learn how many Star Wars characters Chewbacca has carried on his back over the years.
My final point is that - it's over. The DVD is out, all ya'll that bought it can watch the commentary and discuss for a while. You can watch "The Duel" a hundred times on super slo-mo, and then watch the movie backwards to see Darth Vader turn back to the light side. But in a month, it'll finally be over and most of us won't even remember what the fuss is about.
The introduction of the Prequels into mainstream society is very much a nonevent. It happened. People paid 8 bucks a piece, and then they moved on and saw "The Notebook" or "Must Love Dogs". The movies in my opinion, posess absolutely no critical or artistic controversy whatsoever(unlike Sin City for instance, which will still be talked about in ten years), and the movie-going public will just cease caring, leaving behind a few diehards to carry a heatless torch. . . you know, the guys at parties that you try very hard NOT to get cornered by.
Anyhoo, I've said too much, and it was mostly irrelevant and self-serving. . . so take what you want from the smorgasboard and leave the rest for the Rancor Beast. :)
Good luck with the debate, guys. May all your futures be laden with gold-bikini wearin' chicks and groovy 70's haircuts!
I'd like to thank you both for putting forward your oppinions in a way that says you actually know what your saying rather that "Its crap cos i said so".
I could not watch he new movies without thinking the whole way through how can such a cute young boy turn into a mean old man, What happened to the technology to get so much worse in the future, and Ewans accent is just plain awful!
I generally like films that dont have happy endings because its not the hollywood way, The Darkness for example was trully stunning in that respect. But I dont like watching movies knowing that its all going to end badly and knowing why. I like not knowing the end before I see a film! And every time I watch that film afterwards I still love it because I remember what it was like the first time i saw it.
The original three should have been left alone, not digitally enhanced, and not made into six movies. Or nine as the rumours tell me! Apparently he is actually considering making the final three! The trilogy that happened after Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker and Boba Fett. The story is to be continued. Please tell me its not true!
I'd like to thank you both for putting forward your oppinions in a way that says you actually know what your saying rather that "Its crap cos i said so".
Here, here.
Here, here.I'd like to thank you both for putting forward your oppinions in a way that says you actually know what your saying rather that "Its crap cos i said so".
I'll third that. Thank you for a well-informed and concisely stated opinion.
For the record, my favorite moment of the entire Star Wars is in Return of the Jedi is when Luke breaks down and starts wailing on Darth Vader. The sheer rage from somebody that's trying to hold it all in is great (the music accompanying it was perfect) - a great way of saying that the Dark Side is in all of us.
I'd like to thank you both for putting forward your oppinions in a way that says you actually know what your saying rather that "Its crap cos i said so".
Well thanks for saying so everyone. I'm not a big fan of messageboard mob mentality either, but that said remember that the "cos I said so" crowd (in any discussion, not just Star Wars) must have gotten their "crazy" idea from somewhere.
But I dont like watching movies knowing that its all going to end badly and knowing why. I like not knowing the end before I see a film! And every time I watch that film afterwards I still love it because I remember what it was like the first time i saw it.
For myself, I can deal with knowing the end just so long as it is well done. As Chris mentioned, you can never seriously study film and go and see a two star movie again without noticing it is in fact a two star movie.
I'll third that. Thank you for a well-informed and concisely stated opinion.
I wish it had been more concise. Now that I get a chance to read it by the light of day, after actual sleep all I see are my typos. ;)
For the record, my favorite moment of the entire Star Wars is in Return of the Jedi is when Luke breaks down and starts wailing on Darth Vader. The sheer rage from somebody that's trying to hold it all in is great (the music accompanying it was perfect) - a great way of saying that the Dark Side is in all of us.
So be it, Jedi.
::lightning crackles at my finger tips::;)GGG
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Nice posts to all above (and I share the thank you for the 'cause I said so'-less discussion).
I am a recovered Star Wars fan. I think the thing that drove me pretty much off SW cold-turkey was the once relatively tight continuity of what had been the established SW world...well, that and the outright pandering (both to the audience and to his own ego).
Once upon a time all SW products were suppose to mesh...movies, comics, books, the RPG... all of it was suppose to fit together so that there weren't nasty frayed parts where the comics had something that was expressly againt what had happened in the movies, etc, etc. For the most part they were fairly successful. Sure inconsistencies would slip in, but for the most part it was relatively minor.
Then the flouresence of the novels hit, and overall, I loved them. There were mis-fires, or outright crappy stories occasionally, but there were absolutely fantastic ones, as well. There were stories that felt like they were filling in holes in the stories and shoring up a wall that might be sagging just a bit... really contributing to the overall mythos.
A trio of my favorites were the 'Tales of...' books. 'Tales of the Mos Eisley Cantina', 'Tales of the Bounty Hunters', and 'Tales of Jabba's Palace'. They were anthologies, so there was some variation of quality in each, but they were overall great! Telling the stories of all the f'ed-up creatures that make the backdrop to the scenes that made each movie. What was the Ithorian doing in the cantina when these two human desert-scabs came wondering in making a fight with the Aqualish?
Then things started to turn sour. Lucas re-released ANH with the idiotic Greedo-shoots-first scene. And he tries to flex his digital muscles by having Han bargain with Jabba in the bay...and step on his tail! If you are dealing with Don Corleone, are you really likely to flick his nipple just to show what a ballsy, cool-cucumber you are while you are basically begging for an extention that will not end in your legs being broken? And then, look there, there's Boba Fett added in as a little muscle to help Jabba, because it's a common thing to pay the most expensive and successful bounty hunter in the galaxy to schlep along doing bodyguard duty. And then Boba looks right at the friggin' camera! Thanks for taking the time to remind us that Boba is a cult fave, George! I was likely to have forgotten him.
Anyway, then Phantom Menace comes out and it's most everything I was afraid it would be. Hollow. Completely disreguarding the Step-and-Fetch-it-esque Gungans, and Asian-like Trade Federation aliens, tPM has about as much heart and soul as most microwave ovens (and, the worst use of a Brian Blessed since Flash Gordon). It just seemed to me like pretty much everything about tPM was either formulaic or just designed for the 'Ahhhh!' factor. Everything is coreographed well enough, the special effects look good, the CGI battles look impressive, but there's very little spirit behind it. Terrance Stamp (Chancelor Valorian in the Senate (KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!!..um, sorry)) illustrated it well in a criticism after the fact...in one of his scenes, he is supposed to be talking to Padme about the Trade Federation blockade of Naboo and for some reason (possibly apathy) Natalie Portman wasn't on set. Instead of Natalie or a stand-in for the scene, they had Terrence Stamp read his lines off to a tennis ball set at eye level (which granted, probably gave less of a stilted performance than Portman). That's just the way the whole movie feels to me...Everyone is going through the motions, but there is no connection. I think huge amounts of that stems from the script, but still, the effort doesn't seem there, for the most part.
Some of the continuity issues I have (which admittedly can sprint into the realm of nit-picky faster'n Jessy Owens with badgers attached to his ass) really start showing up with the re-imagination of Ani's (said through gritted teeth) childhood making friends from scratch. Anakin making the 'nude' C3PO as a child was completely senseless. The Complete Guide to Droids of the Star Wars Universe (or something like that) was published about 2 years before the tPM and gave interesting histories for all sorts of different droids from the movies. Most of them were very thoughtful explorations of how the different droids would have come about and fit into their respective niches. Then, Lucas goes and tosses all that sense aside in favor of establishing pointless inter-character relations that really seem vapid and very forced.
Although it didn't seem like the script was handed in in crayon, AotC didn't get any better with jedi knights going to fry-cook aliens in Coruscant diners for advice, Wereplatypus's analogy of the flippin' green space monkey, the pointless puns in the arena...It all just shut me out cold.
I haven't seen RotS, I may never see it. I haven't lost any sleep over it, so if I do, fine, and if I don't, oh well. I'm probably rambling, so I'll cut this off here. Ouch! I could, and have, gone on about this at lenght many times with friends, a long-suffering wife, and occasionally even the figures arrayed on one of my book shelves. The complaining doesn't rectify the situation. I will however, leave this one bit of food for thought... Clive Thompson wrote a very good article for Slate.com about the future of the SW franchize and suggests that it is time for Lucas to stand aside and hand the future SW tales over to the fans. Here's the address: http://www.slate.com/id/2117760/
Oh, so the x-wings and TIE Fighers make roaring noises and zappy laser noises because they're fighting in subspace. I see.
I am a recovered Star Wars fan.
::everyone in unison::
"Hi, Gavgoyle."I guess this is the offical site of SWA (Star Wars Anonymous).
Oh, so the x-wings and TIE Fighers make roaring noises and zappy laser noises because they're fighting in subspace. I see.
So are they like under space, or is it they occupy the same space as subways which are also pretty noisy? Anyway putting science into Star Wars is sort of like forcing physics on a superhero comic. They make cool noises when they fly - I can live with that.
I can't say I've ever read a Star Wars novel. I own about nine D&D novels - I think I managed to get through one. Since then I have sworn off novels that revolve around pop cultural icons as too risky to waste money on. I'll just wait for the movie. ;)
GGG
Hey, maybe I'm alone, but I like all the movies pretty equally. They're good pulpy fun, but not high art. Maybe it's best not to overanalyze a simple series of kid's action flicks?
It's hard not to analyze the 800 lb. pop culture gorilla standing in the room. I mean let's face it, the movies are bigger than the entire tabletop RPG industry, and how much energy do we put into that?
I like a good adventure romp myself (Sinbad movies, Silverado, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Harry Potter flicks, Kung Fu Hustle, etc....) especially the kind where the action and the dialogue contribute to the romp rather than drag me kicking and screaming away from it. My only point in posting this thread was to point out from a critical standpoint that some of the Episodes where not only lacking in romp-generation, but seem to actively conspire to destroy the illusion of the film (for examples, see above). I realize there where high expectations forthe second spate of films, but just as a film Episode II is just not that good. I liked most of the stuff with solo Obi-Wan. The dialoge between him and Anikin though, killed the start of the movie for me -other things killed the rest.
GGG
Who can resist joining in on a completely subjective debate about which SW movie is the best? Certainly not me! So here goes...
I agree with the general public that Empire is definitely the best - I laughed, I cried ... It is the best written and has the most pathos of any of the movies.
I would then rank Star Wars (or a New Hope, if you prefer) second. I agree with earlier posts on a different thread that the much-touted cantina scene is a nightmare of ridiculous cartoonish characters but the simple story and the way the audience is inescapably rooting for the good guys and scared spitless by Vader and the bad guys can't really be topped. Sure, there dialog that was written while Lucas was trippin' on some unknown narcotic but ... the original is still cool.
My third place ranking is a toss-up between Return of the Jedi and ... (wait for it) Attack of the Clones. It is the only one of the new series that I personally own and the only one I've seen more than twice.
I think it was a terrible idea to re-touch the original trilogy (I happily own the original releases and not the "special edition" crap) and only a slightly worse idea to produce episodes I,II,and III after all these years.
I knew everyone would be excited over the new episodes and everyone would be expecting to be blow away and transported to a whole new fascinating place like we were when we saw episodes 4-6. I made a conscious effort not to expect too much from tPM; in fact, I went into it kinda expecting to be disappointed (and I wasn't disappointed on that expectation). I thought to myself "I don't expect this movie to compare in any way to episodes 4-6 or have any kind of decent storyline, just introduce the characters we all know and love in some kind of simple compliment to the original flicks". I HATE the Phantom Menace. I kept checking my watch throughout the entire movie, wondering if I should just get up and leave (which I've only ever done once in my entire four decades of movie-going). I suffered through it and later (in an effort to try to find SOMETHING good about it) even accompanied some friends and sat through it a second time. I have never read any of the SW novels and have never played the RPG so I consider myself blissfully ignorant of any specifics on the SW universe other than what was presented in episodes 4-6.
Why did they start Ani out as a child, rather than a teenager? This is perposterous. Jar-Jar Binks - so annoying I wanted to hunt down the character who played him and flay the skin off his body. The dialog - uncomparably horrible! The premise - unclear and uninteresting. I sat here for several minutes trying to puzzle out what the plot of tPM even is. Can someone please tell me? For some reason the trade federation is harrassing Naboo and trying to kill Padme, right? I'm not even sure. I don't know how any of this furthers the plots or explains anything from the original series, except to contridict it.
Let me continue this on another post ...
Hey, maybe I'm alone, but I like all the movies pretty equally. They're good pulpy fun, but not high art. Maybe it's best not to overanalyze a simple series of kid's action flicks?
I'm with Yamo on this - all arguments have merit here, but in the end it's all redundant...because at the core, it's all just Saturday afternoon megaplex fare - good fare, or bad fare, it's up to you.
My big thought on the matter has always been:
How much richer and more colorful the Star Wars pantheon and story would've turned out, if Lucas would have been willing to release the movies as 'PG-13' or even 'R' all the way through the series...
An 'R' rated "Revenge of the Sith" as a "horrors-of-war drama" would've topped "Empire Strikes Back" as the gem of the series, in my book - let's hope that an avante-garde filmmaker in the vein of Lucas purchases the rights from his estate in about 40 years and remakes the entire series...
M
I thought the dialog was okay. Very cheesy, in a "Commando Cody and the Radar Men from the Moon" sort of way, but that's the idea. Big, broad melodrama like that is the antithesis of the "naturalistic" school of dialog writing. I think that more Star Wars critics would do well to go back and look at the real period source material that inspired it (1940s sci-fi serials). It really sheds some light on what Lucas was emulating (he even has a "Commander Cody" in Sith).
The only issues I had with that particular volumn are nitpicks. I thought it was a bummer that the shapershifter assassin's abilities were never really utilized to any effect and that Mace Windu got to kill Jango Fett after they movie had taken so much time setting-up Obi-Wan and Jango as enemies.
Overall, though, it advanced the story and had some very cool action sequences, so I think it did its job. I may be a little overly negative simply because I don't tend to enjoy middle acts as much as the beginning and ending of a story, though. Kind of like how I loved the Fellowship of the Ring movie, but left the theater feeling pretty indifferent after Two Towers or how Empire always seemed like kind of a slog to me after the initial excitement of discovering the Star Wars galaxy in New Hope.
Hey, maybe I'm alone, but I like all the movies pretty equally. They're good pulpy fun, but not high art. Maybe it's best not to overanalyze a simple series of kid's action flicks?I'm with Yamo on this - all arguments have merit here, but in the end it's all redundant...because at the core, it's all just Saturday afternoon megaplex fare - good fare, or bad fare, it's up to you.
My big thought on the matter has always been:
How much richer and more colorful the Star Wars pantheon and story would've turned out, if Lucas would have been willing to release the movies as 'PG-13' or even 'R' all the way through the series...
An 'R' rated "Revenge of the Sith" as a "horrors-of-war drama" would've topped "Empire Strikes Back" as the gem of the series, in my book - let's hope that an avante-garde filmmaker in the vein of Lucas purchases the rights from his estate in about 40 years and remakes the entire series...
M
I agree and disagree. I would not have minded a PG-13 Clones, but an R rating in current American cinema generally requires drug use, sex or lots and lots of profanity. That all obviously has no place in Star Wars, so you'd essentially have to get an R rating just based on violence, which would require so much blood and guts that it would be almost ridiculous.
Phantom Menace definitely needed to be a G. It's important that in retrospect that part of the story seem like it took place in a more genteel, "innocent" time. Not only does it reflect Anakin's moral development, but it contrasts all the grim story developments in Clones and (especially) Sith. That contrast and progression (and the way that the tone of each of the first three films is mirrored in Anakin) is important, I think.
And, as a practical matter, the movies are supposed to be largely an "all ages" family affair. I would not feel comfortable showing a young child a series of R-rated flicks. On a purely selfish level, I'm an adult, but I don't want to seriously entertain the idea that I should be the whole target audience for Star Wars.
Episodes 4-6 established some very broad perameters that even a child (but apparently not the great Lucas) could follow...
The Force is a ...,well, force that connects all living things. Sorta a spiritual thing and people have to "believe" in it for it to work (Luke, "I don't believe it" Yoda "That is why you failed"). Nope! In tPM, it is now just some funky bacteria that either exists in your blood or doesn't.
Anakin and Obi-Wan were once good friends until Anakin turned. Nope! In episodes 1-3, they barely get along and their relationship is almost always "father-figure/teacher to rebelious child".
Anakin was already "a gifted pilot" when he and Obi-Wan first met. Nope! In tPM he's just some bratty kid who "accidentally" flies a starfighter near the ridiculous finale of this senseless episode.
Yoda trained Obi-Wan ("You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who trained me") and then, against proper proceedure, Obi-Wan took it upon himself to train Anakin. Nope! Qi-Gon, one of the most shallow useless characters to grace the series (and that's saying alot), trained Obi-Wan and despite some resistance Anakin was assigned to Obi-Wan as an official student.
Brother Owen tried to keep Anakin at home, working the farm. He disapproved of Anakin's association with Obi-Wan, thinking they should keep to themselves and "not get involved". Nope! Does Obi-Wan ever even meet Owen at any time during episodes 1-3? Anakin only meets him all of 10 seconds of screen time and he's not really his brother anyway - they have absolutely no history or relationship.
R2D2 is kind of an awkward little droid. He and C3PO assumably met just prior to being assigned to Captain Atilles. They don't know who Princess Leah is and R2's story of belonging to Obi-Wan is just that - a story. He merely wants to find him so he can deliver the plans to the deathstar. Nope! R2 can fly (why doesn't he do so in a thousand more appropriate times in episodes 4-6), has an arsenal of weapons, *belongs* to Obi-Wan - in fact saving his life and being a rather integral part of many of their narrow escapes.
C3PO has never been to Tatooine. He is a protocol droid who was originally assigned to communicate with binary load-lifters, though he is unfamiliar with moisture-vaporators. He doesn't know who Luke is, Leah is, Obi-Wan is, or even any particular foreknowledge of Vader. Nope! Anakin builds him, for crying out loud, though at eight years old he is able to construct him to perfect specs in comparison to the other protocol droids seen throughout all six movies. The young boy also somehow programmed Threepio in over "six million forms of communication" - none of which apparently enabled him to simply tell Luke all about his father Anakin/Vader and sister Leah.
Luke & Leah are twins who were separated at birth. Leah remembers her mother being very beautiful but very sad. She died when Leah was young. Nope! If Leah remembers her mother she's got the best memory of all time since she now dies when the twins are born.
Speaking of memories, Obi-Wan must have the worst memory of all time. Not only does he not remember R2's existance, he also forgets Leah even exists, since he says "that boy is our last hope" to which Yoda replies "No, there is another".
The technology of Anakin's childhood and teenage years blows away the crap they're using fifty years later. Count Dukoo leads a rebellion (couldn't they have used a different word) but then murders his allies in favor of his other ally the Emporer. After a fruitless pitched battle against Count Dukoo in AotC, it takes Anakin all of ten seconds to cut off his hands and then decapitate him in the ill-concieved battle in RotS.
So anyway ... that's just some of the ways the episodes 1-3 fail to even decently support the storyline of episodes 4-6. So back to my original statement - why do I like Attack of the Clones better than the other two recent movies? Because despite the weak dialog I liked the "feeling" I got watching Anakin travel his twisted path to the dark side. Sure it was poorly written and melodramatic almost to a nauseating level but there were a couple of times I felt a little bit of sympathy for poor Anakin and actually cared what happened to him and Padme. Even though I knew where he would ultimately end up - as Vader, I wasn't completely lost in the portrayal of how and why he changed.
So my opinion, for what it's worth, is that the new movies are ultimately inferior to episodes 4-6 for even the most basic reasons. Apart from episodes 4-6, episodes 1-3 are often not even entertaining to watch or have any merit on their own. Some of the special effects are cool but others are so over-the-top that they are distracting (the whole opening fight scene in RotS is so chaotic and overwhelming, it nearly sends me into epileptic fits).
I too can call myself a recovering Star Wars fan. The new releases have pretty much cured me of any passion for what was once a cultural explosion of light-hearted, campy adventure.
"For some reason the trade federation is harrassing Naboo and trying to kill Padme, right?"
Palpatine enlists the Trade Federation to invade his home planet of Naboo so that he can call for a vote of no confidence in the current Supreme Chancellor once the senate proves unwilling to deal with the situation decisively and so that he can generate enough of a sympathy vote for himself to be elected the new Chancellor.
He wants Padme to sign a treaty giving up power to the Federation to increase the sympathy factor by making it seem like the Federation has bullied this poor young girl into giving up her planet's independence (and then probably killed her). When she instead escapes and comes to him for help, he makes the best of it by using her to call for the vote of no confidence instead, which distances him from the process and makes it even less apparent that he's manipulating things to his own benefit.
Palpatine is quite the cunning bastard. This is part of the reason I like Phantom Menace so much. It has a simple, idealistic plot on the surface (saving Naboo and finding the Chosen One) and a cynical, multi-layered one below the surface (Palpatine takes over the Republic, so the "good guys" actually lose and don't even realize it). This scheme is most apparent in the ending scene, where the music is the Emperor theme from Return of the Jedi sung by a children's choir during a parade!
Okay, Yamo, thanks for clearing that up! Zoom! I missed all that when watching the movie. I mean, I recognized that Palpatine was trying to take over the Senate but I missed this whole complex plot with Naboo.
Wow! There is a lot here!
"The Force is a ...,well, force that connects all living things. Sorta a spiritual thing and people have to 'believe' in it for it to work (Luke, 'I don't believe it"' Yoda 'That is why you failed'). Nope! In tPM, it is now just some funky bacteria that either exists in your blood or doesn't."
Midichlorians serve three functions as a plot device:
1. They establish how ability to use the Force is hereditary.
2. They give a concrete backing to Qui-Gon's intuition about Anakin being the Chosen One. The Council can dislike Qui-Gon and his methods (which they do), but they can't ignore the numbers and hence they ultimately can't ignore Anakin.
3. They play into the films theme of symbiosis (as with the Naboo/Gungan relationship).
"Anakin and Obi-Wan were once good friends until Anakin turned. Nope! In episodes 1-3, they barely get along and their relationship is almost always 'father-figure/teacher to rebelious child'."
It's not necessarily a contradiction. Most parents and children love each other, but that doesn't always prevent some pretty epic strife now and then!
"Anakin was already 'a gifted pilot' when he and Obi-Wan first met. Nope! In tPM he's just some bratty kid who 'accidentally' flies a starfighter near the ridiculous finale of this senseless episode."
He's the single, solitary human in the pan-galactic sport of podracing who can even operate the vehicle well enough to not kill himself. That is a what I call gifted! He also performs some pretty slick maneuvers with a flying car in Clones and a starfighter in Sith.
"Yoda trained Obi-Wan ('You will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who trained me') and then, against proper proceedure, Obi-Wan took it upon himself to train Anakin."
I can say that my fourth grade teacher trained me, and be very correct, but that doesn't mean that I didn't have a third grade teacher, too.
"Nope! Qi-Gon, one of the most shallow useless characters to grace the series (and that's saying alot), trained Obi-Wan and despite some resistance Anakin was assigned to Obi-Wan as an official student."
Obi-Wan did threaten to Yoda that he would train Anakin without the council's permission before that permission was granted. It's made pretty clear that the whole arrangement is unique and that the Council is not happy with it at all.
Also, I loved Qui-Gon. He was the ideal Jedi, really. He has more compassion and humanity than any other Jedi we meet and is willing to break the rules to do what's right (no unyielding adherence to Jedi Code dogma).
"Brother Owen tried to keep Anakin at home, working the farm. He disapproved of Anakin's association with Obi-Wan, thinking they should keep to themselves and 'not get involved'. Nope! Does Obi-Wan ever even meet Owen at any time during episodes 1-3?"
Yes. At the end of Sith.
"Anakin only meets him all of 10 seconds of screen time and he's not really his brother anyway - they have absolutely no history or relationship."
Well, step-brother.
"R2D2 is kind of an awkward little droid. He and C3PO assumably met just prior to being assigned to Captain Atilles."
I always got the idea that they has been pals for ages. They already bickered like an old married couple in New Hope.
"They don't know who Princess Leah is..."
Well, 3P0 doesn't. R2 would have known, however, since he was never memory-wiped.
"R2 can fly (why doesn't he do so in a thousand more appropriate times in episodes 4-6)"
I can't think of any other time that it would be helpful.
"has an arsenal of weapons"
Really? I only remember the electric zapper thing that I think was first seen in Return of the Jedi.
"*belongs* to Obi-Wan"
He belongs to Padme, then Padme/Anakin.
"C3PO has never been to Tatooine. He is a protocol droid who was originally assigned to communicate with binary load-lifters, though he is unfamiliar with moisture-vaporators. He doesn't know who Luke is, Leah is, Obi-Wan is, or even any particular foreknowledge of Vader. Nope! Anakin builds him, for crying out loud, though at eight years old he is able to construct him to perfect specs in comparison to the other protocol droids seen throughout all six movies. The young boy also somehow programmed Threepio in over 'six million forms of communication' - none of which apparently enabled him to simply tell Luke all about his father Anakin/Vader and sister Leah."
He doesn't remember any of that, having been "memory wiped" at the end of Sith.
"Luke & Leah are twins who were separated at birth. Leah remembers her mother being very beautiful but very sad. She died when Leah was young. Nope! If Leah remembers her mother she's got the best memory of all time since she now dies when the twins are born."
That's the Force for you. What does Yoda say about seeing othet times and places and people long gone? :)
"Speaking of memories, Obi-Wan must have the worst memory of all time. Not only does he not remember R2's existance, he also forgets Leah even exists, since he says 'that boy is our last hope' to which Yoda replies 'No, there is another'."
Obi-Wan must not believe that Leia is up to it. This is more an issue with Return of the Jedi, though.
As for R2, there are a million R2 units in the galaxy, and it's not inconcievable that Obi-Wan might think of him like you or I think of a toaster. Are you going to recognize your specific toaster from twenty+ years ago when you see it? Not just the general model, but the specific unit? I wouldn't.
"The technology of Anakin's childhood and teenage years blows away the crap they're using fifty years later."
Nah. It looks shinier and more ornate, just like cars in the 1930s and 1940s versus the 1970s, for example, but it's not really more functional in any way I can see.
"Count Dukoo leads a rebellion (couldn't they have used a different word) but then murders his allies in favor of his other ally the Emporer. After a fruitless pitched battle against Count Dukoo in AotC, it takes Anakin all of ten seconds to cut off his hands and then decapitate him in the ill-concieved battle in RotS."
Anakin has had years to get better, and he is the Chosen One...
Anyway, I just like to argue. Feel free to ignore me.
Wow! There is a lot here!
Yes, but I'll just touch on the one or two that don't speak to the certain point of view argument.
Midichlorians serve three functions as a plot device:1. They establish how ability to use the Force is hereditary.
2. They give a concrete backing to Qui-Gon's intuition about Anakin being the Chosen One. The Council can dislike Qui-Gon and his methods (which they do), but they can't ignore the numbers and hence they ultimately can't ignore Anakin.
3. They play into the films theme of symbiosis (as with the Naboo/Gungan relationship).
4. And they're boring. We already know people with the force can sense it in others (i.e. The force is strong in this one.), and is hereditary (i.e. The force was strong with your father.) and even if you have never seen Star Wars having a simple disturbance in the force would have sufficed. And since when does a good movie have to give the audience not only a biology lesson, but also a verbal explination of the movie's theme (both delivered by Qui Gon). It should not have made the final edit and only served to slow down the pacing (which was deadly slow on Tatooine as everyone has to explain everything - "he's a dangerous dug", everybody is a bomb, gamblers and pod racing, "I made him for my mother" - what exactly does she do? We're told she's a slave, but what does she do -warm seats? She seems to have a lot of free time for a slave.) My point is people keep telling us stuff instead of showing it. Episode I seemed like a Star Wars lecture, where as in Star Wars (A New Hope) you get allusions to things like there being a galatic senate that just got nixed, an intro to the Death Star and the fact that Vader is the last known disciple of the force and can choke people from across the room. Some of the dialogue isn't all that hot, but it gets the job done and touches on the good bits of classic Commander Cody as well - much better than the science lecture or the elavator "Gundark discussion". Better yet the scene is packed with information, but not many specifics making it more interesting.
It's not necessarily a contradiction. Most parents and children love each other, but that doesn't always prevent some pretty epic strife now and then!
I never got the impression they even liked one another until Episode III. Once again the dialogue (and perhaps the acting) kills. There was never one moment in Episode II that I felt these two had any warmth for one another. I was relieved when they seperated because it meant the end of the awkward dialogue and jabs at humor(?), which started again the moment they met in the arena. The only times I see their relationship as something other than one of mutual annoyance and spite is in Episode III. It would have been nice to see this relationship a bit earlier instead of having it referred to, because if I were Obi Wan I would have fired Anikin if he had always acted that way and that's the only way I ever see him acting in Episode II.
may the little bugs be with you, always....
GGG
"And they're boring. We already know people with the force can sense it in others (i.e. The force is strong in this one.), and are hereditary (i.e. The force was strong with your father.)"
Actually, assuming that we watch the movies in numeric order, we don't know that by this point in the saga.
As for the scene where midichlorians are explained, it's only a minute or so long, not anything that takes up a large portion of the film. I have no major issues with it. Then again, I'm a big biology nerd and think mitochondria are pretty darn awesome. :)
Anyway, the main reason I don't think they should be considered objectionable is that they don't change what the Force is. They're just like sense organs for the Force, not the Force itself. Kind of like how some people have better eyesight than others or have bigger muscles. They can simply sense better and do more work because of their physical endowments.
If the ability to sense and use the Force was all about belief and enlightenment with no physical component, than anyone could potentially master it and a hereditary Force ability would make little sense.
"I were Obi Wan I would have fired Anikin if he had always acted that way and that's the only way I ever see him acting in Episode II."
I think all the Jedi would have if they could. Unfortunately, you can't fire the Chosen One, no matter how much of a moody teenage jerk he is. :)
"And they're boring. We already know people with the force can sense it in others (i.e. The force is strong in this one.), and are hereditary (i.e. The force was strong with your father.)"
Actually, assuming that we watch the movies in numeric order, we don't know that by this point in the saga.
I actually know people young enough to watch them in order and their reponse after Phantom Menace was "What for?"
As for the scene where midichlorians are explained, it's only a minute or so long, not anything that takes up a large portion of the film. I have no major issues with it. Then again, I'm a big biology nerd and think mitochondria are pretty darn awesome. :)
Anyway, the main reason I don't think they should be considered objectionable is that they don't change what the Force is. They're just like sense organs for the Force, not the Force itself. Kind of like how some people have better eyesight than others or have bigger muscles. They can simply sense better and do more work because of their physical endowments.
Even so it does sidetrack the movie and anything that gets away from or disturbs the flow of a movie (any movie) is probably something that needs to go. The force itself is symbiosis enough without the extra info. That and Star Wars has never been science heavy, its a fantasy done in space.
If the ability to sense and use the Force was all about belief and enlightenment with no physical component, than anyone could potentially master it and a hereditary Force ability would make little sense.
Once again, fantasy. Not everyone can be a sorcerer and not every sorcerer knows exactly where his power comes from.
"I were Obi Wan I would have fired Anikin if he had always acted that way and that's the only way I ever see him acting in Episode II."
I think all the Jedi would have if they could. Unfortunately, you can't fire the Chosen One, no matter how much of a moody teenage jerk he is. :)
Yes, but at some point promise to Qui Gon be damned - from a certain point of view. Mace or Yoda should have taken over his training, if he is the Choosen One, which once again is told to us, but never actually proven on film. "I am the most power jedi ever." doesn't hold much weight when you are constantly loosing limbs in lightsabre duels.
That said, I agree that should the movies ever be redone (heh, by someone else). They should be left PG. They are after all for kids, and those who are still kids at heart.
Season's Greetings!
GGG
PS I do actually like Star Wars -just from a certain point of view. :)
"I am the most power jedi ever." doesn't hold much weight when you are constantly loosing limbs in lightsabre duels.
That's true, but remember that Anakin talks about BECOMING the most powerful ever. He knows that he has the potential, but his pride and anger keep him from achieving it. Instead, he makes a deal with the devil and ends up crippled and enslaved. I think the notion that he was well on his way to becoming the most powerful ever is demonstrated pretty well by his improvement in his second mach with Dooku and his ability to almost beat Obi-Wan before falling victim to hubris ("Sure, I can take a fighter who has the high ground, I'm the freakin' CHOSEN ONE"). Sidious, at least, seems pretty confident that Anakin will one day eclipse both him and all the Jedi (he actually says this to Yoda, I believe).
I have my Christmas miracle early, as I agree almost 100% with Yamo. If you want an interesting take on this new versus old trilogy thing, Monte Cook has an interesting essay about it on his website. He basically says that we can't judge the new trilogy fairly becuase we live in a different time than when the first one came out, and we are kinda geared toward nit picking and not thinking simple things are "cool."
I remember it drove me crazy when Phantom Menace came out that the critics kept comparing it to the Matrix, and saying that the Matrix was the sort of sci-fi the people want now. Turns out the Matrix was only cook becuase it was brand new, and as soon as there were sequels, it was time to savage that franchise too.
I guess I will always love Star Wars as an epic, the whole story line. I can't really disconnect any of the movies from the sage, though sometimes I might be in the mood to see one episode or another. And goodness, if I hear one more person complain about the movies contradicting the novels, I'm going to scream, since Lucas said, from the begining of the novel line, that he wasn't going to pay any attention to them, becuase he knew how the whole story arc was suppose to go . . . but then thats just my point of view.
I have my Christmas miracle early, as I agree almost 100% with Yamo.
Oddly enough so do I, but only because he's mostly talked about plot points rather than whether or not the acting, directing, writing, pacing, etc.... was any good (in short the things that make a good movie - not just a good Star Wars movie). So yes, most of Yamo's responses I agree with. As to whether or not we can judge movies accurately - all I can say is that I like movies like Maltese Falcon, Casablanca, 12 Angry Men, Apocalypse Now!, the director's cut of Bladerunner, The LOTR trilogy, Raiders of the Lost Ark, Empire Strikes Back, Sangiro, Yojimbo, Life is Beautiful, Sin City, Ghostbusters, Godfather, Amelie, etc.... They are well-wrought movies (some are darn near perfect). Is A New Hope or Attack of the Clones well-wrought? That's the question. I would tend to say Attack of the Clones is not particularly well done mostly for the reasons stated above when compared to any of the three or four good or better movies within the six. I would give the movie two stars, and though I think it has its moments it's not consistant. Can people enjoy a two star movie? Sure they can (for instance, apparently biology buffs can), but not everbody can and that's speaks more to the point.
As to why someone might want all science fiction to look like The Matrix, I have no idea. What a boring world that would be. Let's let The Matrix look like the Matrix and let's let Star Wars look like Star Wars.
"I want my $8 back!" -Randle to George Lucas in Clerk's (the cartoon)
GGG
Well, in defense of my original points, I'd like the opportunity to add a few more comments...
First, I was a biology teacher before becoming a Marine and I still say the whole biological explanation was not only unneccessary but *took away* some of the mystical *feel* of the force as demonstrated (not explained) in episodes 4-6.
Second, Obi-Wan doesn't just say he doesn't remember R2D2 specifically, he says "I don't remember ever owning any droid". R2 is NOT just a toaster. George Lucas modeled him (figuratively speaking) after a toddler. You can't understand exactly what he's saying but he expresses himself pretty clearly and audiencies are supposed to feel some *fondness* toward him - like "he's cute" or something. He's not just a hunk of tin but represents a true "character" in the plotline - thus scenes like him getting blasted while on the back of Luke's x-wing fighter or when he slips into the water and gets swallowed (and later spit out) by the giant water beastie. Speaking of which, there would have been an ideal time to fly. Another time would be whenever he had to be loaded and unloaded from the x-wing fighter by crane; or when traveling in the sands of Tatooine; or trying to peek in the window of Yoda's house; or falling off Jabba's party barge and having to be fished out of the sand; or when dealing with the Ewoks (why chase them when you could fly over them - why allow yourself to be captured and tied up in the first place?)... the list of "now would be a good time to fly" is endless.
As I said, I view the newer movies as inferior because they contradict more than compliment or add to the original series. Episode III came off to me as a desperate attempt to force the final pieces into a disintegrating storyline. Like ..."oh, we've gotta explain this ... and oh, we better show that..." Ignorance is bliss. I figured I (and probably the majority of the original audience) had a pretty good idea of how things worked in the Star Wars universe before episodes 1-3 were released. If you're going to insist on *explaining* in blistering detail the prelude to the main story arch, the least you can do is remember what that storyline is and how the whole concept works.
"First, I was a biology teacher before becoming a Marine and I still say the whole biological explanation was not only unneccessary but *took away* some of the mystical *feel* of the force as demonstrated (not explained) in episodes 4-6."
Well, this is something that one either agress or disagrees with. I happen to disagree, but that's just me. I think it adds more dimensions to the way the Force operates without taking away from any.
"R2 is NOT just a toaster."
Perhaps not for the audience, but it's made pretty clear that the living characters in the films treat them as either non-sentient disposable mechanical slaves or, at best, somewhat like household pets. They're not seen by anyone as fully "human."
"As I said, I view the newer movies as inferior because they contradict more than compliment or add to the original series."
I see no contradictions whatsoever.
I like Star Wars, and I can agree and disagree with some things.
GGG has it right in that sometimes you don't have to come out and say it all. Do we need a Silmarillion movie now that we've had LotR? Not really. I think sometimes he went into the background, which was cool and unexplored.
But the movies came out ok. Not great, but fun. I think part of the problem was he directed all the 3 new ones; he did not direct all three originals, so his own views could not stagnate the whoel story.
I think the great weakness of the newer movies was dialogue and characterization. So many characters were just too 1D and the dialogue was often wooden. He took shortcuts too often. In episode two, instead of showing Anakin growing frustrated, there was too much dialogue like "i will get strong and do stuff!" instead of establishing mood.
Maybe he didn't have enough time.
I think another thing we HAVE to look at is the mythic feelings in our own minds about the original 3. They were so integral to so many people's childhods, and were so good, almost nothing could have lived up to them. He was gonna get it rough no matter what.
All in all, the original 3 rocked, and the new 3 were good. The only one with the truly epic feel was Revenge, in my opinion, but Star Wars is altogether good.