Almost every DM has to let go and remember that their players are growing up and will soon become epic level. My players are almost at this stage and I only have a few ideas for epic adventures. The limited amount of epic monsters and places make it real hard to make good adventures so can anyone give some ideas to light a fire? Im sure everyone has some good ones!
Political intrigue.
All the enemies they've made over the years band together to do them in.
Owning and running your own company of mercenaries.
Settling down and retiring....(that's what my players will need to do)
lol, this is what i get for planning the lvl 30+ adventures first.
I like that band of enemie ideas...
Said this before, but I just don't like epic levels. Good thing too, for my campaign will stop right at 20th (how's that for timing!).
Ahh. The wonders of low levels.
WaterdhavianFlapjack
Im guessing Im the only one using The QuickSilver Hourglass...
Im guessing Im the only one using The QuickSilver Hourglass...
I'm running it right now and my group is having a BLAST. We didn't actually play a party all the way up to 30th, but 4 of my players from other campaigns made up some 30th-level PCs and we're doing it as a stand-alone. Big fun. Lots of epic-level math. Interesting foes. And WOW is that ball-of-corpses room a killer!
Put them in a between a rock and a hard place, make them choose between two evils, and have someone come after them as a consequence of the lesser one.
Sure they can take out a divine messenger or four... but do they REALLY want to?
One way to approach this is to try adding significant collateral damage to encounters as a way to escalate the conflict:
- do the PCs REALLY want to take out the bad guy(s) if it means killing all those orphans as well?
- if the PCs killed the orphans, how do all the local not-so-bad guys feel about that?
- do the PCs REALLY want to slaughter the demonstrators when the protest turns ugly?
- if the PCs kill all the townsfolk, how does that make the city's patron deity feel?
Just how far are your characters willing to go to get their prize?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't like epic. The more I think about it, the less I like it. It isn't only that the epic rules are horribly written, I just don't like the concept.
Where were these CR 30 creatures when my characters were 12th or 13th level? In my game worlds, 1st level characters can seek out and find the lair of powerful dragons. They'll die, but they can do it. But epic creatures are just too rare to support an epic campaign unless I do some kind of planar thing, and I don't like to.
If a campaign goes past 15th level with my group, I'd be very surprised. Once we hit 12th, I stop finding it very exciting. The only thing to fear then is that you'll have to deal with the pain in the rear that is the raise dead rules.
Sorry, I'm not very useful to the thread. Epic level plot-hooks should be just like lower-level ones. The PCs should have a reason to do something that no one else in the world can do.
Where were these CR 30 creatures when my characters were 12th or 13th level? In my game worlds, 1st level characters can seek out and find the lair of powerful dragons. They'll die, but they can do it. But epic creatures are just too rare to support an epic campaign unless I do some kind of planar thing, and I don't like to.
If a campaign goes past 15th level with my group, I'd be very surprised. Once we hit 12th, I stop finding it very exciting. The only thing to fear then is that you'll have to deal with the pain in the rear that is the raise dead rules.
I agree. If any number of the creatures in the ELH were running around on their own as a continual part of the multiverse, they would destroy it. They would move from plane to plane, take out almost everything on it, and populate the cosmos with more of themselves. Not one, or two- but if there were enough to run a whole campaign, that's what would happen. But, if you just have one or two, then there's not enough to run a campaign.
I don't know. Maybe its because my group goes totally power-gamer when they even think about that, to the point of near absurdity. I supose one could have some cataclysm that's never occured before where a lot of the epic monsters are suddenly popping up.
I do like low level better than higher ones. My group always seems to forget that a sword is a sword, and no matter the numbers, is a lethal weapon. 100 hp doesn't mean you stand still and get stabbed in the heart 10 times before you die.
That, and my players are always urging me to start a campaign at about 15th level, which we've tried before. It generally isn't nearly as good as starting at first, but they don't seem to understand that a power is its most enjoyable when you earn it over time. At least, that's how I see it.
They always want to run an evil campaign (they think it would be easier, for some reason) with wierd things like treant monks, half dragon pixie liches, etc. They just can't seem to see that a "normal" character is just as much, if not more, fun. Again, just my opinions.
...power is its most enjoyable when you earn it over time. At least, that's how I see it.
They always want to run an evil campaign (they think it would be easier, for some reason) with wierd things like treant monks, half dragon pixie liches, etc. They just can't seem to see that a "normal"...
Exactly!!! Same deal with my campaign! I'm cracking down on all these template crazy players. Not at all as much fun for all PCs.
WaterdhavianFlapjack
One of my players wants to DM an undead series.
There are a lot of problems with running an epic-level campaign, but the problems are not isurmountable. I like low level, mid level, high level, and epic level adventures for different reasons. The epic rules need a bit of revision, but they are by no means terrible rules, and have been used to successfully construct adventures (ie. Quicksilver Hourglass). Here's a few things to consider:
1. The limits of character creation ultimately rests with the DM. If you don't want your players running dragon characters don't let them. They might be a bit annoyed, but it saves you from a logistical nightmare. Don't be stingy about your decisions though, since certain templates and monsters don't make bad epic level characters. Its all about knowing when to say no.
2. The difference between epic level monsters and 15th level PCs is no different from the difference between CR 10+ monsters and 1st level characters. Where is that beholder, or cloud giant, or purple worm, or old red dragon when the PCs are 1st level? The fact is that D&D is a game and that sometimes the logic needs to be thrown out the window to create a balanced and survivable campaign. Why doesn't the gibbering orb destroy entire wizard academies in its search for magic? It might have, but remember where there are epic level monsters there are epic level NPCs keeping their numbers down. Not to mention the gods themselves. They might not interfere when it comes to a flock of wyverns, but a flock of hell-spawned abominations is a different story. Legends are full of gods battling such monsters, so it might be a common place event in a normal campaign. I could go on, but I think the point has been made.
3. Creating adventures for epic level PCs should involve epic level events. Take a look at the Epic Level Handbook for the list of adventure ideas. Some of them are great. When designing an epic level adventure think big. Think saving the world from a beholder invasion, rescuing a god from having its life-force sucked dry by a cabal of liches, stopping a coming cataclysm by completing 12 epic labors (ala Heracles), etc. It involves a whole lot of number crunching and headaches, but its not impossible if you have understanding and cooperative players.
OK, so far I have got a BASIC plotline. I can develop more later, still got 4 levels to go. ANYWAY heres how it goes in very short terms: For about 6,783,341 years diffrent races have held sway over the prime material plane, ages lost, forrgoten. Their are many diffrent pantheons of gods and yada yada, many forrgoten ages. Anyway 1 thing remains the same: When a race has outlived its time (humans elfs dwarfs now), the planes shift into the AGE OF OPPERTUINETIES(spelling) an age where who ever is the strongest becomes the domanent race and the gods MIGHT move on for a new pantheon. Anyway with the gods away when the races clash, all the abomanations and monsters they hid get lose and all the races stranggle for THE RULE OF THE NEXT AGE and anything can happen.
Cool isnt it. It should also explain the age of the worms, Kyuss Feels the change and so. It also explains all the adventures the PCs had.
That's actually a pretty good idea. I'm just curious though: Why the odd number, and who's keeping track? :)
That's actually a pretty good idea. I'm just curious though: Why the odd number, and who's keeping track? :)
Ditto. And also, Onrie, the undead "series" (I'll assume campaign) does sound cool. Does that mean the PCs would be undead, or would be fighting undead?
Anyway, cool ideas.WaterdhavianFlapjack
That's actually a pretty good idea. I'm just curious though: Why the odd number, and who's keeping track? :)Ditto. And also, Onrie, the undead "series" (I'll assume campaign) does sound cool. Does that mean the PCs would be undead, or would be fighting undead?
Anyway, cool ideas.WaterdhavianFlapjack
SCORE!! The odd number is how many years the universe has been existing and the DM in the control room somewhere in the back of the far realm is keepin score:)
I said series because I cant spell campaign, anyway they want to play as undead characters.
But I like the positive terms^^
Once my players reach 20th level, I will inform them that they can no longer be raised from the dead by any means if they die. At that point, their Gods consider them too valuable to be wasted on planet Oerth and once they die, they will take their place as epic heroes in their respective deities' celestial (or fiendish) hosts, to roam the outer planes, immortal.
That should be a good retirement incentive if the player wants to keep the PC around. If they retire from adventuring and don't die, I may allow the occasional appearance of an epic level PC as a patron or for an occasional side game.
Farewell2kings,
Your premise ROCKS! I think your (somewhat)-forced retirement for PCs at 2oth level is logical, game-balancing and creative. Best of all, it leaves an out for those really determined players who just insist on pressing onward. Plus, for those determined players it adds that 1st level fear-of-imminent-death flavor that is so sadly lacking in epic level play! Excellent job of handling this dilemma. Well done - whoo,whoo,whoo!!
Adding in my complements to f2k's excellent idea. (Funny how f2k looks somewhat like a curse word filtered by these boards. Anyway...) As, I said, excellent idea. As SirMarcus also said, it makes sure the PCs don't get it in their heads that they are invincible and can go around killing everyone without fear of repurcussion because of the very real fear that if they die they are gone for good. No that I think about it, it gives traditional D&D part of the IH flavor...
Kudos!!!!
WaterdhavianFlapjack
Thanks....it's something that I always intended to do in my old AD&D campaign, but no player ever reached 20th, much less 15th level, so it never came up, but the rapid level advancement in 3rd edition requires some pre-planning.
This will also apply to NPCs in my campaign, so the flipside is that if the players do manage to kill a 20th level + NPC bad guy, they know that he ain't coming back to the material plane.
Don't pull your punches.
Do something completely unlike what you've done before.
Political situations that you can't solve by a sword or magic, only your wits.
Have them lead anything/someone/something. An army, for example.
Put them completely out of their normal element - if they're used to the wilderness, for example, slap 'em down in the city. Send them underwater. Or Underlava.
Have them deal with the fact that they may be hero-worshipped. What if one of their admirers gets into trouble trying to do something they did?
Epic levels can be alot of fun, the StormLord's keep is not a bad adventure and parts of it can be tough on a group of 4 21st level characters.
Also, the only world where epic play makes alot of sense right now is FR, where there are hundreds of epic level NPCs so there is an explanation for why the world isn't destroyed by every cr-30 monster.
On Oerth Iuz is a good focus for an epic adventure, I always use the plot hook in Howl From the north and send my players to find the 5 blades of corusk, and summon back Vatun who then promptly nixes Iuz. The great thing about this plot hook is that you can put it in almost any adventure.
Also although there aren't lots of epic level modules around, its pretty easy to up the ante on ones that are close.
Bastion of broken souls is easy to make challenging for a group of level 21's
the aforementioned stomrlords keep.
Razing of Redshore can be converted,
and the Lich Queens beloved is also 1, a very tough slog, and 2 easy to make just a smidgen harder for a bunch of epic Pcs
I'm already planning on an Iuz-centered Epic campaign to follow on the boots of the current adventure path. Who better to seize upon the chaos of the Age of Worms? The fact that the PCs get their own little kingdom in that neck of the woods doesn't hurt either.
That group will have progressed from 1st level all the way up (minus any replacement characters along the way). Our gaming group is also going to be running the Quicksilver Hourglass, but for that onewe'll be making Epic level characters: three of us will be porting our 1st edition characters (circa 1985).
*shudders*
I don't want to think about Vlaakith (sp) any more powerful than she already is.....but my roomate could probably make it so.
Our gaming group is also going to be running the Quicksilver Hourglass, but for that onewe'll be making Epic level characters: three of us will be porting our 1st edition characters (circa 1985).
I'm always interested to hear how it plays.