I'm interested in hearing tales, opinions and ideas on alternate spell systems for D&D.
First let me clarify, I'm not talking about new schools of magic or anything like that. I'm talking about the whole d20 magic system being chucked out the window. Something brand new!
I've been feeling a little like Einstien must have (I'm not comparing myself to him intellectually - just frustrationally) when trying to rectify the differences between general realativity & quantum mechanics - they both work but not together. D&D has Arcane magic, divine magic, psionics and they're class dependent. Wouldn't it be nice to have a unified theory of everything for D&D magic?!
I've purchased Unearthed Arcana but the alternate systems there don't really go out on a limb. The variant systems really only replace the mechanics for how many spells per day and in what order and when you can cast them; except for the "Incantation" Rules, which are fresh and new but not really usable in a "day-to-day" sense that most characters would be interested in.
Although it is a different game system d20 Cthulhu presents an interesting alternate system that any character can use but it is at thier peril. Again, interesting, but not something most D&D characters would cling to.
As a conceptual backdrop to my own attempt to design a new magic system I struck upon the idea of the "Genius Loki" often called the spirit of place. In my own understanding I think of this as the "Animus" or life force. In Greek mythology this would be initially attributed to Gaia who gave birth to the Titans. The "animus" (soul, genius loki, whatever name you give it) is the inheritance of all life from the original "Force" (worked well for Star Wars). Some life forms have more or less of this "animus" as do some places (people have more than animals but celestials and demons have more than people - also opens the ideas of power places and ley lines, etcetera). The "animus" (mana, spell points, its been given a variety of names)forms the basis for the magic concept. It is a kind of fuel that is spent/converted from it's raw form into a magical effect. All life has this energy but it takes talent (feats and skills) to learn how to store it (either in yourself or an item), channel it (make use of it in its raw form) and manifest an effect (spells).
Anyway, the concept is there as a kind of universally accessible magic that depends on your species predisposition and resources spent to develop it kind of thing; alas, I haven't put it into a game mechanic. Also, I think it would be easier to impliment something like this into the d20 Modern system as D&D is pretty entrenched.
In any case, I'd be very interested to hear other views and opinions on the matter.
Cheers,
C.
What you're describing, with a basic "store" of power to be used as the caster sees fit, and a feats that allow (I assume) any character to use magic, sounds a lot like a combination of magic points from Unearthed Arcana (the WotC book) and the magic system from the Midnight campaign setting. If you have those products, you should check it out.
What you're describing, with a basic "store" of power to be used as the caster sees fit, and a feats that allow (I assume) any character to use magic, sounds a lot like a combination of magic points from Unearthed Arcana (the WotC book) and the magic system from the Midnight campaign setting. If you have those products, you should check it out.
I have Unearthed Arcana (as I mentioned); however, I've never heard of the Midnight Campaign setting. Is that WoTC?
Cheers,
C.
I have Unearthed Arcana (as I mentioned); however, I've never heard of the Midnight Campaign setting. Is that WoTC?Cheers,
C.
No its from Fantasy Flight Games. In a nutshell there once was a Darklord and he schemed to rule over the world. An there came a time when he set his schemes in motion and attempted to wrest the the lands of humans, elves and gnomes etc. by force. Being a smart guy and all he pulled it off.
I checked out the web page for "Midnight" (right here at Piazo too - will wonders never cease) and it looks as though it has potential - any reviews?
C.
Well, I use a MP system that's similar to the one presented in Unearthed Arcana, but mostly the numbers are different. My players really like the system, cuz it gives the spellcasters more freedom when casting spells. As long as they have the MP to cast the spell and it's prepared, then it's good to go!
One of my players went out and bought the Expanded Psionics Handbook a while back without any consent from either myself or the other DM in our group. We looked it over- I don't care what psionics were like in older editions, this modern incarnation just seems dumb, maybe even a little overpowered.
I understand the in game explanation that priests/druids use powers of the gods, arcanists use ley energy fields around them, and psionics create their own effects from the force of their mind, but I just don't like the feel in my campaign, and my fellow DM feels the same about his. ESPECIALLY if psionics are also subject to spell resistance and everything else that affects magic- "It's magic, but it's different." "How?" "Uhhmmmm......"
I like the spells/day system because it ISN'T mana, MP, or whatever other name has been affixed to it. I'm not saying alternate systems are neccessarily bad, but I really DON'T like the psionics system at all. And why did they have to go make new schools? You can call them disciplines all you want, but they are just schools of magic. Divine spells come from a different power source than arcane spells, but they're still in the same schools. Not psionics! Why?
I can deal with divine caster only using divine magic in items such as scrolls and things, but psionics have whole new classes of items, which I really don't want to add to my random treasure rolls, but this ends up screwing the psionicist since I also don't put others like him around my world.
Once again I find myself asking, if anyone can show me a saving grace about psionics, I'd love to hear them. Otherwise, I think I'm going to have to deny that player the use of his book, which is $30 wasted for him (although it could be argued that he deserves it for not asking a DM first). Perhaps replies would be best suited in another thread, so as not to further derail this one any more than I inadvertantly have. Sorry.
Saern, don't worry about derailing the thread. I agree with your comments 100% which is why I am looking for a new Magic System. There are too many non-integrated systems in D&D and every class seems to have its own rules. Your player had to go out and buy a whole other book to use psionics. I really like the philosophical differences in magic; i.e. divine power comes to mortals from the gods, arcanists use the ambient universal energies around them, mentalists focus the power of their minds, etcetera. But why oh why does there need to be such vastly different mechanics?!? All of the flavour anyone could hope for in differentiating the types of magic wielding characters can essentially be derived by the type of powers they possess (currently divided up as “Schools” and “Domains” ). Hence my search. Conceptually I like the idea that magic must be fuelled by some energy as I described earlier. However, the mechanic doesn't have to come down to Magic Points spent on spells even though it seems the most likely. In an attempt to develop this concept away from straight Magic Point expenditure I’ve been looking at some of the other concepts developed for “Damage Systems” that try to get away from Hit Points. Both use the concept of a depleteable and renewable resource. The key is tying the resource to both character development to determine magical power and to the rate of depletion to determine the power of the magical effects. It’d be nice to do this through skills and feats but I’m beginning to see that it would require too much alteration to the existing classes to make this work. The concept works much better with the d20 Modern Classes. Again, I think that magic in D&D is too entrenched in the Classes. I was hoping that the d20 system would be more universal, alas.
Cheers,
C.
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One of my players went out and bought the Expanded Psionics Handbook a while back without any consent from either myself or the other DM in our group.
Uhmm...wow. I never had a DM who told me how I could spend my own money.
As an aside though, I agree with you about psionics. I love the stuff, but the rules differences really suck!
I checked out the web page for "Midnight" (right here at Piazo too - will wonders never cease) and it looks as though it has potential - any reviews?
C.
I'm currently running a Midnight Campaign, oh course I'm biased but it is a blast.Though be warned the spell casters are much weaker in this world. You can handle the world in two ways. Your players are resistance fighters trying to stave off the ultimate victory of the dark lord (Izrador)or they serve the dark lord crushing any signs of hope or rebellion. It's all good!!
I checked out the web page for "Midnight" (right here at Piazo too - will wonders never cease) and it looks as though it has potential - any reviews?
C.
Picture Lord of the Rings, but Froto dies a horrible death, and evil wins the day. Now you live in a land where evil has it's way, Weapons and Magic are illegal. Rape gangs of Orcs scour the land and kill on a whim. You, as a PC just want to survive. If you can make even the smallest difference, then you will be a hero, but the forces of evil will probably slay a village of innocent civilians because of your success.
I liked Midnight when it first came out. The main problem as I saw it was a lack of adventures to play. Since in Midnight keeping the status quo is a victory for the forces of good, most outside adventures have to be heavily modified for play. The different magical systems also makes conversion difficult.
There was a very expensive box set put out, but I haven't picked it up...then they came out with Midnight 2ed, which tends to make me think that all the previous Midnight books I've purchased (like 10 of them) are now out of date...I hate that, so I've let my exitment for Midnight wane.
Midnight needed to do what WotC did with 3ed and release the core books followed up by enough adventures to get players hooked. They didn't do this, so I see the game loosing steam. That being said, it has a great fan site where there is a lot of support information.
ASEO out
Hmmm. Midnight sounds like a tempting setting even if its only for an interesting read. Reminds me of Tigana a little bit from the "defeated population" angle (its a book by Guy Gavriel Kay, Highly Recommended!).
Any comments on the Midnight magic system, i.e. likes, dislikes, would'a, should'a, could'a and all that???
C.
Check out Iron Heroes by Malhavoc Press. Magic is dangerous and unprdictable, and you cast spells from spell methods, which are essentially recipies that are customizable to a certain degree.
WaterdhavianFlapjack
i think a magical energy pool system like in the diablo games would be interesting, the more powerful the spell, the more enegy it takes out of the spell pool you have
midnight has a cool concept but a lot of players dont like having the roles reversed so much in favor of the baddies..the first ed campaign book had a binding problem with it so mine feel apart but i had it spiral bound and it is much easier to use
Contributor
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If you want an interesting spell system, check out Slaine d20.
Basically, you can learn spells as skills (like the rules for learning a language), however your bode must be capable of holding enough Earth Power to cast them. In some cases you can gain (or lose) Earth Power by being in certain areas, learning how to perform certain rituals or sacrifices, and other types of things like that. It mechanics is a little similar to the psionics system (though its actually older than it), except that the spells aren't class or level dependant (its more like Diablo). Rather you need a feat that allows you to cast spells from different schools. Still some magic wielding classes get some of those feats as class abilities or a bonus spell as a class ability.
Its nice because theoretically, a relatively weak sorcerer could go to the right spot and power himself full of EP and cast a very potent spell.. though there'd probably be negative consequences and it would probably hurt him pretty bad as well.
But at least its an option, which can make things very dramatic on the table.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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A friend of mine was running D&D while using the magic system from the d20 Sovreign Stone game. I didn't play in the game but the players told me that it worked really well and were having a blast. I took a look at the book and the system seemed really good.
Basically it's another spells as skills. But the DC's can get insanely high. The way it works is say that your spell has a DC 45. You roll your caster check (I forget how it works precisely) and get a total of 18, that's round one. Round two you roll a 12 for a total of 30. Round 3 you roll a 16, 46. On round three your spell goes off.
Again I don't remember all of the details and the Soveriegn Stone books aren't in my collection but if you are looking for alternate spellcasting I'd say they are well worth checking out.
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One system that I've run across that provides flexibility over the course of the day, while keeping a decent level of power during the course of battle comes out of the Slayers D20 book from the Guardians of Order. In a nutshell, every spell is physically taxing to cast. Every spell has a base DC that everything else revolves around. To learn a spell, you have to make a spellcraft check at that DC. Then to cast the spell, first you have to make a Fortitude save at that DC. The primary spellcasters have good Fort saves and receive a class bonus on Fort saves to cast the spells they specialize in. Then depending on the result of the save the spell either goes off as planned, or they have to make a control check (equal to DC-10) or the energies are released chaotically.