There is a thread on this board where people are talking about parties of 6 or more getting their butts kicked by the second encounter in "The Whispering Cairn". This worried me because if I get to run this I will be lucky to get a party of 4. So, I decided to take a closer look at the ELs.
According to the DMG, about half the encounters in an adventure should have an EL equal to the intended level of the PCs, about 30% or so should be lower, and roughly 20% should be higher. Out of 19 encounters in the "The Whispering Cairn" there are a grand total of 2 which are EL 1. There are none which are lower. The average EL for the entire adventure comes to about 2.8.
My conclusion: "The Whispering Cairn" is not an adventure for a 1st level party, as advertised. It is for 2nd or maybe even 3rd level. I plan to do some scaling down before running it.
My conclusion: "The Whispering Cairn" is not an adventure for a 1st level party, as advertised. It is for 2nd or maybe even 3rd level. I plan to do some scaling down before running it.
Good idea. I find published adventures to be suitable for party levels about 1-2 higher than advertised. The Whispering Cairn is no exception. Either scale down the adventure, start at 2nd level, or have at least 6-8 PCs in your party.
It's definitely tough, but remember it's supposed to take the party all the way to 3rd level, so only the beginning of the adventure is for 1st-level characters.
It's definitely tough, but remember it's supposed to take the party all the way to 3rd level, so only the beginning of the adventure is for 1st-level characters.
Sadly the beginning of the adventure is the hardest part--two swarms, a 4 HD creature and 2 2HD creatures all in rapid succession. Bring on the min/maxing!
Seriously, now that my party after 3 tries has dealt with the swarms and beetles I expect the rest to be really fun. On to lone CR 1 creatures. They'll actually have a chance to care about the really cool history of the cairn and the sweetass treasure they'll find.
It seemed tough to me as well, so I gave out some XP for digging around in Diamond Lake before entering the cairn (2050 to be exact!).
By the time the wolves were dealt with (EL4 if you are generous/ 1350 XP) and the sarcophagus lid trap diarmed (CR2 so 600XP) another 1950 XP were issued and low and behold, my party of four was up to level 2 for the toughter encounters.
They retreated, camped and healed in area 1 and then headed in, alittle tougher and a lot warier. Does this seem like a reasonable solution or did I give it to them too easy?
Acanthus the Sage
Well, technically the wolves are only worth 900 XP (3 x CR 1 creature). I gave my party XP for finding and avoiding the sarcophagus trap even though they did not attempt to disarm it. The problem was, my group was 6-strong so even after killing the mad slasher (and fleeing from the swarm) the surviving characters only had about 350 XP each.
What did they do in Diamond Lake that was worth 2050 XP? If they faced challenges then I'd say that's fine, but if you gave them two grand for asking questions and roleplaying with no real threat to their characters I would say that is a little generous.
I like Chris Wissel's idea of putting some baddies in the mining office to give the party some XP and treasure right off the bat before heading in to fight the swarms and 4HD monsters. He even gave them useful treasure: scroll of burning hands and elixir of swimming. What a nice DM! If only I could find it in my heart to be so kind to my PCs...
There is a 3rd-level wand of burning hands for sale in Diamond Lake. If you run some encounters before sending them to the cairn and give them enough treasure to purchase this wand, then point them in the direction of the shop, that should make things a lot easier (3d4 damage/round = unhappy swarm).
It seemed tough to me as well, so I gave out some XP for digging around in Diamond Lake before entering the cairn (2050 to be exact!).
By the time the wolves were dealt with (EL4 if you are generous/ 1350 XP) and the sarcophagus lid trap diarmed (CR2 so 600XP) another 1950 XP were issued and low and behold, my party of four was up to level 2 for the tougher encounters.
They retreated, camped and healed in area 1 and then headed in, a little tougher and a lot warier. Does this seem like a reasonable solution or did I give it to them too easy?
Acanthus the Sage
I think I described a bit of my experience for Qbert on another thread but I think the whole adventure just screamed for some pre cairn sessions just so the adventurers have some sort of reasonable chance. But you know, as much as some people love the old time modules like Hommlet, even then things were not always a cakewalk. You get to the final encounter in hommlet and your first or 2nd lvl characters were up against 18 bandits, a 4th lvl fighter and a 5th lvl cleric. The only way to prevail there was outside help.
So I don't see anything wrong with some pre cairn xp and gp opportunities..either that or bring along the 3rd lvl paladin babe who is basically lit up with big neon lights saying "NPC helper for low lvl parties"..
So I don't see anything wrong with some pre cairn xp and gp opportunities..either that or bring along the 3rd lvl paladin babe who is basically lit up with big neon lights saying "NPC helper for low lvl parties"..
What I didn't like about sending Melinde along, even though one of my PCs is a cleric from the Heironean chapel, was that she is two levels higher than they are, meaning she would completely outshine them ("okay, your spell does 2 points of damage. Melinde swings her sword, causing 13 points of damage and finishing off the critter.") Not exactly fun for the PCs. Although a hell of a lot more fun than dying, I admit.
Well, I took the wolves as EL 4, using the old V3.0 encounter table at the generous end, had them hack off Khellek, thinking for the future, discover and deal with Todrik, thus annoying Balabar, and finally they insulted Ellival Moonmeadow, which got their names insulted all over town.
Oh, yup, gave them XP for role-playing.
Seemed like a lively start worth 500XP each to me, but each to their own.
Ta for the reply.
Acanthus the Sage
Even in 3.0 experience was awarded per monster (CR) not per encounter (EL). And 3 wolves is not an EL 4 encounter. It's EL is CR 1 + CR 1 = EL 2 + CR 1 = EL 3. So you would award 300 XP per wolf for a total of 900 XP. But you're the DM, so do as you see fit :)
Sounds like they got a lot done in Diamond Lake. Personally I hope Khellek will provide an opportunity for role-playing and use of skills like Bluff and Sense Motive. I don't want my PCs to just hack him to bits right off the bat. They won't know he's evil and will have no reason to kill him. Until he starts meddling in their affairs down the road. In my campaign the first major NPC they ran into was Kullen in the Feral Dog, kind of a preview of what's to come when they have to track down the gang. They got a sense of his rage and the power he holds around town so I'm hoping this will encourage them to think of a way to get the info out of his gang without a straight-up fight, which is bound to end in tragedy.
straight-up fight, which is bound to end in tragedy.
This kind of worried me too. My characters, with the help of the ridiculously seductive half-elven rogue, managed to charm the info out of Kullen.
They went to get the Paladin from the barracks after telling here what was going on. I figured this was going to make the observatory too easy just didn't want to use the "you can't find the Paladin" excuse because they were not time constrained. So I let the Paladin join up for the trip to the observatory but I figured, fine I will sick Kullen gang on them.
My rationale: Kullen hates Filge for treating him like a gofer..he knows the PC's are going for Filge. He knows Filge is a friend of Balabar's. So what better way to kill 2 birds with one stone then to let the characters kill Filge and then tell Balabar that they caught the PC's looting the observatory and took them down.
Of course, Kullen's plan didn't quite work out cause the Paladin was there. She insisted Filge be taken prisioner instead of killed. As the party left the observatory Kullen attacked, Filge still had access to most of his spells and realizing Kullens intent sided with the PC's..
Net outcome..Filge dead, Kullen and gang dead. 1 PC dead, 3 severely wounded, Paladin not too hurt. Lots of gear to sell and bad boy rep of party higher in Diamond Lake after taking down Kullen..which brings them to Balabar's attention and perfect lead in for the second adventure.
Ta again Qbert,
Sorry to get lawyerish but the old encounter table 4-1, p101 lets me use 3 CR1 creatures as EL4 - maybe too generous!
Let the lawyerism continue...EL is a method of approximating encounter difficulty, not awarding experience. It's true you could approximate a group of 3 CR 1 creatures as EL 4, although a more accurate approximation would be EL 3. The table just tells you that an EL 4 encounter made up of 3 foes must contain CR 1 or 2 foes. If they are all CR 1, the approximation is off slightly. In other words, if you had to make an encounter of EL 4 with 3 foes, they could be CR 1 or 2, since there is no CR 1.5 this is the closest you can get.
Whether you call it EL 3 or EL 4, there are 3 CR 1 creatures, amounting to 900 XP. Case closed. But as I said, how you award XP in your game is up to you as a DM.
Sorry to be so unmovable on this but I am a bit of a rules lawyer. :)
And over here in sunny England, to 'hack off' means to annoy, irritate or make angry, not hack up/ cut to pieces. Apologies for the colloquialism. I'm on your side about using Khellek for intrigue - it's just that now he doesn't like my party!
Oh. Well good on you then. I kind of wish I'd introduced Khellek when my party went to Lazare's. Thing is, they suck at dragonchess (no Profession [gambler] ranks) so I ruled they would not get a chance to sit with him, renting their own sets and all. Next time they go they'll meet him though. Maybe through an encounter with Tirra in the Feral Dog.
I have run two sessions of this adventure. The first only had three players, the second session only two. They have approached death three times. What really kicked their butts was going underwater. We are using VP/WP with a modified AC as AR for Unearthed Arcana. So far, it has been appropriately deadly and exciting. (I have a thread going at WOTC under UA section, in case you care about the details).
I fully admit, my players are smart enough to fall back and heal up, and have done so in between most of the major encounters. The abandoned house is getting a lot of attention as a result.
All in all, we are loving it and have no complaints about the dealiness of the adventure. So far, it seems dead on (pardon the pun).
My players made it through the adventure without any deaths. They made quite a few trips (three, I think), and spent a good deal of time in between in town interacting with the NPCs and of course healing up. By the end, when they reached the underwater portion, we had 1 3rd level and 3 2nd level characters.
I've read the module, but haven't run it yet. Seems that the problem, if any, with the module is in player ignorance from what I've read on these boards. Veteran gamers that have encountered swarms in their various forms, have learned how to deal with them, as well as some of the other potentially fatal encounters in this module, may get pretty beat up, but are usually going to survive. Greener groups are much more vulnerable simply because they don't know how to deal with many of the encounters.
A solution to this you could use instead of giving away "free" xp or treasure, would be simply "educating" them. And I mean this "in game." Encountering a grizzled old hill man or even using one of the NPCs in town to drop some helpful info that will help the group prepare properly can really do wonders to your groups' survival and keep your conscience clear of "going easy on them" or giving out freebies.
"Theez hills is crawlin wit critterz. Bes' tek ya seff sum acid or liquid fire wit ya if yer fool nuff to g'wan insida dem caves."
You get the idea. Maybe the guy has some alchemist's fire he would trade for a good blanket and a backpack. Whatever. A little instruction on how to use it against "critterz" makes for great role-playing and player educating at the same time. And that's just the swarms. You can do similar stuff with other problem encounters, too.
I have run two sessions of this adventure. The first only had three players, the second session only two. They have approached death three times.
>snip<
I fully admit, my players are smart enough to fall back and heal up, and have done so in between most of the major encounters. The abandoned house is getting a lot of attention as a result.All in all, we are loving it and have no complaints about the dealiness of the adventure. So far, it seems dead on (pardon the pun).
I'm with GK on this one. Our five man group (artificer, favored soul, fighter/paladin, druid, and monk) have had one unconcious party member after nearly every combat, and have rested and retreated when necessary. I had to send both enemies in the flooded Laborers area at them simultaneously and drop a mated pair of gricks on them in the spheres to provide sufficiently dangerous combat.
Admittedly, its taken them five days of game time to reach Alastor, but no fatalities thus far, just many harrowing moments and enormous enjoyment had by all.
I stand corrected. Filge, with little prep time (only managed to get the mage armor off before the Paladin was on him) died fairly quickly due to the Paladin chasing him him all over the room. However, with the parties front-liner heroically beating down the little guy, the zombies made mincemeat of everyone else. With two men down, the Paladin got critted to
-23 and the remaining two ran, having only dropped one zombie. Serves the Paladin right for coup de gracing the unconscious mass-murderer.
Dead Filge, abused party, and dead pc. What a crappy night.
There's always next session, I suppose.
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My group consists of a human fighter, a human druid, a changeling ninja, a dragonmarked human sorcerer, a kalashtar telepath, and another (more recently added) human fighter. They are almost through The Whispering Cairn and have had no fatalities, although they've had many near misses. ;)
Their toughest fight thus far has been with Kullen, the kalashtar was not there. The changeling was studying them for an infiltration when the sorcerer attempted to stare down Kullen. By the end of the fight, one fighter, the sorcerer, and the ninja were bleeding out. After stabilizing his teammates, the druid stabilized Kullen's gang so that they could take them to the garrison. The wizard's ferret escaped, ensuring an eventual escape. Currently they have just tooled Filge, although the sorcerer is diseased from the Tomb mote. It's been a fun, challenging adventure. Even though the sorcerer is slowly learning not to kick down doors (he usually plays barbarians!)
My group consists of a human fighter, a human druid, a changeling ninja, a dragonmarked human sorcerer, a kalashtar telepath, and another (more recently added) human fighter. They are almost through The Whispering Cairn and have had no fatalities, although they've had many near misses. ;)
Their toughest fight thus far has been with Kullen, the kalashtar was not there. The changeling was studying them for an infiltration when the sorcerer attempted to stare down Kullen. By the end of the fight, one fighter, the sorcerer, and the ninja were bleeding out. After stabilizing his teammates, the druid stabilized Kullen's gang so that they could take them to the garrison. The wizard's ferret escaped, ensuring an eventual escape. Currently they have just tooled Filge, although the sorcerer is diseased from the Tomb mote. It's been a fun, challenging adventure. Even though the sorcerer is slowly learning not to kick down doors (he usually plays barbarians!)
Yes, it is tough, but about the part with Kullen, it was good.
First, our illisionest made himself look like one of Kullen and his pals buddies. When the were roaring drunk, he came to the window and motioned for them to come. They came, and he led them to an ambush. Surprise round: Wizard color sprays 3 KOed, druid entangles and fighter and ranger hold. Kullen was dazed and entangled. They talked to him, killed him, took all his gangs clothes and stuff, and ya, I thought that was cool.
The bard in my group was asking questions about Smenk and grave robberies when he botched the gather info test. Due to this, I had Kullen get wind of this. He and one of the fighters ganged up on the bard and beat him senseless (with fists). They took all his gear and threw him out in the mud with only a pair of underbreeches on. The rest of the groups (2 paladins, a cleric and a wizard) were rather afraid of Kullen and his gang, and had to plead with them only to get his bagpipes back. Still, the paladins healed some injuries Kullen sustained in the battle with the bard, and he told them about Filge.
Anyway, I've had people below 0 hp in every session, and had to botch some dice when the wolves mauled the cleric.. it is definetely a tough module, but as has been mentioned, good planning will help a lot.
I'm worried about the fact that my group is only going to consist of four. The groups that haven't had much trouble al seemed to have more people than that. We'll see how much I have to nerf it once we get started...can't wait.
I'm still sweating the underwater section of the Whispering Cairn, first level does not = underwater breathing.
Have an NPC join, class depending on what your party needs. The 3rd level paladin Melinde has joined all sessions due to lack of melee power (only one 1st level paladin). A cleric or wizard will also be of use if you lack it. Four 1st level characters will face a difficult time unless they are either very experienced players or brilliant min-maxers..
I'm worried about the fact that my group is only going to consist of four. The groups that haven't had much trouble al seemed to have more people than that. We'll see how much I have to nerf it once we get started...can't wait.
I'm still sweating the underwater section of the Whispering
Cairn, first level does not = underwater breathing.
Dont sweat it, I had 4 people and only 1 acually knows good.
There are five characters in the party I'm running. None of them are particularly cheesy or min/maxed. The most effective character thus far is the goliath barbarian, but a solidly built fighter character could easily do as much as he does. They haven't had any difficulty, although they've fled a couple times.
Well, I just finished running my 1st installment and only 1 of my player's almost died (when he fell during the "Passage of the Face" in area 8). He got to negative 6 but was stabalized and returned to life. I got alot of guff from one player that said the trap was way too powerful for a 1st lvl party and that I should have provided more clues or more of a "barrier" against the trap itself. Oh, well., can't please them all, I guess :)