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I wouldn't allow the syringe to overcome DR unless it possessed the proper material/enchantment/alignment combo, and I'd make it a melee touch attack that provokes an attack of opportunity. One could also use it in a grapple, making for some pretty intense moments. The whole thing would look pretty cinematic.
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I wouldn't allow the syringe to overcome DR unless it possessed the proper material/enchantment/alignment combo, and I'd make it a melee touch attack that provokes an attack of opportunity. One could also use it in a grapple, making for some pretty intense moments. The whole thing would look pretty cinematic.
N'Wah, I think that making the delivery a melee touch attack that provokes an AoO is a good call. The cinematic possibilities are definitely fun. I don't think that a syringe itself would do more than 1 point of damage...unless you really tried to make the injection hurt with violent movement or something (which is where the +Str might come in). After all, syringe's are supposed to be designed to cause as little physical damage as possible, aren't they? And we're talking about a very thin, weak tube of metal, so being overly forceful will risk bending the needle and making it practically useless for delivering the potion.
It's even obliquely suggested that it might be used that way, particularly by the potion of ghoul touch which would act as a paralytic agent.
The way I understand it, the Ghoul Touch necroturgeon would act on its recipient as if the recipient had cast Ghoul Touch, i.e. giving the recipient a paralyzing touch attack.
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Good point about overcoming DR, but the problem with making it a touch attack is it then ignores plate mail and even the thickest natural armor. That's a bit silly to me.
Hmm... yeah, natural armor makes sense. I just don't want to water down such an interesting device by making it almost ineffectual: "Well, I could craft a potion containing ghoul touch, place it into a syringe, and repeatedly attack someone with it until I slip it past a chink in their armor, or just cast ghoul touch and, I dunno, touch him."
If I needed to set a simple hard-and-fast rule, I guess I'd say the syringe can only be used in a grapple or on a helpless foe.
If I could get a little more complex, I'd also allow it to work normally as a touch attack against foes wearing up to light armor, as there's still a bit of skin exposure there. Any amount of natural armor would negate it as well, unless it was a adamantine syringe (which gives us a reason to make the "unbreakable needle").
Thanks for the input though- seriously, somehow my mind forgot about natural armor. And after all those trips to povery-ridden lizardfolk villages, administering vaccinations via 1/8"-thick needles...
It's even obliquely suggested that it might be used that way, particularly by the potion of ghoul touch which would act as a paralytic agent.The way I understand it, the Ghoul Touch necroturgeon would act on its recipient as if the recipient had cast Ghoul Touch, i.e. giving the recipient a paralyzing touch attack.Nope. Otherwise a potion of cure would allow you to make a melee touch attack to cure someone. The imbiber is both the caster and the target.
Good point about overcoming DR, but the problem with making it a touch attack is it then ignores plate mail and even the thickest natural armor. That's a bit silly to me.
Actually, ghoul touch specifically imbues the caster (i.e., the one who uses the necroturgeon) with a touch attack, whereas cure spells do not. This makes more sense than having to run around trying to stick someone with the necroturgeon. Much cleaner and more in line with arcane magic. I'm with philarete on this one.
Really? I don't see where it says that. It would be quite a departure from the standard potion rules.
DMG, pg 229: "The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect."
PHB, pg 215:
"Cure Light Wounds
...
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
...
"PHB, pg 235
"Ghoul Touch
...
Range: Touch
Target: Living humanoid touched
..."So, other than the effects, both are delivered in the same way. A potion of cure would harm an undead if it were to drink it. Likewise, a potion of inflict would heal the undead but harm the living. So there is precedent for harmful potions as well, just they're not particularly common.
Also, note that the syringes specifically say they make it possible to deliver potions to unwilling targets. It seems perfectly in line with Filge's character to create a potion that can paralyse a target.
Wow - what an excellent new game concept!
I'm surprised that no one has yet noted that the delivery of an agent into a "target/victim/recipient" has not yet included poisons, drugs or diseased matter (delibrately vague here, for the weak-stomached...)
As soon as I read it, I began to drool about the possibilities of the syringe 'exotic weapon' stats and uses by a trained assassin, cancer mage or poisonsmith. I'm going to go dig up "Poisoncraft" from Blue Devil (highly recommended reading for DMs) and the BoVD...
Scheming on...
M
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...I don't think that a syringe itself would do more than 1 point of damage...unless you really tried to make the injection hurt with violent movement or something (which is where the +Str might come in). After all, syringe's are supposed to be designed to cause as little physical damage as possible, aren't they?
I ruled that it does 1d4 non-lethal damage! I don't think that someone would really get hurt by this. It will mostly be unpleasant.
Of course, if you try to break the needle so that it sticks to the victim, another 1d4 lethal damage would also do the trick!
I thought the syringe is a very interesting idea. I start to wonder at the technology level. The ability to make a thin metal needle with with a hollow center..that takes a level of precision your standard fantasy setting won't have.
Therefore, I gotta assume this is a totally expensive device, very hard to make, using the skills of several experts in a big city.
I let my players sell it to the town alchemist for 1000gp. Saves me the trouble of worrying about all kinds of nasty things they could have done with it.
If you read Filge's description in issue #124 you see that the syringe deals no damage when it hits. The problem with syringes that deal lethal damage is that its possible for someone with a high strength to kill a 3 hp commoner with a syringe. Having the syringe deal non-lethal damage is equally problematic. 4 points of non-lethal damage will knock out a 3 hp commoner, which does not seem at all believable (remember the commoner is knocked out, he doesn't pass out). Saying that the syringe deals no damage may not be believable to some people, but it certainly prevents arguments about what sort of damage it deals.
Any creature with a measure of DR should be immune to the effects of an ordinary syringe unless it is made out of something that bypasses DR. Similarly, creatures with very thick hides (say +4 natural armor or better) should be impervious to the needle of a normal sized syringe.
Potions are meant to be drunk. A potion applied any other way should not work under the normal guidelines. This does not mean that the syringe cannot be filled with a magical substance that duplicates the effects of a potion, but you shouldn't be able to use one for the other (so a liquid meant to be injected shouldn't work if it is drunk). Injury and contact poisons and diseases can be passed through a syringe, but that is where the line should be drawn.
I think a syringe would be treated as light piercing weapon that requires the Exotic Weapon feat to use in combat (have you ever seen someone jab a hostile person with a syringe without resorting to trickery, surprise, or a lot of grief?) Finally, the Weapon Finesse feat should be able to be applied when using a syringe.
I thought the syringe is a very interesting idea. I start to wonder at the technology level. The ability to make a thin metal needle with with a hollow center..that takes a level of precision your standard fantasy setting won't have.
Therefore, I gotta assume this is a totally expensive device, very hard to make, using the skills of several experts in a big city.
I let my players sell it to the town alchemist for 1000gp. Saves me the trouble of worrying about all kinds of nasty things they could have done with it.
I was thinking that as well. Even in a world where 80 foot tall Iron Colossuses can be constructed with enough spells and enough gold, it becomes hard to imagine the manufacture of a thin metal needle with a hollow center. I like that idea about just making it all too worth it to sell the thing and get it out of their hands before they hurt themselves.
Yes, a syringe would be hard to make in a standard fantasy setting. 1,000 gp sounds probably about right, and using the standard rules it would cost around 2,000 gp to buy a new one.
If you read Filge's description in issue #124 you see that the syringe deals no damage when it hits. The problem with syringes that deal lethal damage is that its possible for someone with a high strength to kill a 3 hp commoner with a syringe.I suppose if a half-orc stuck a syringe in a 3hp commoner's eye it could be considered lethal damage. But yeah, I get what you're saying. It should be the concoction in the syringe that needs to be worried about, not the little needle delivering it. Unless you're me, in which case the needle worries me far more than what might be behind it. But then I think one of the ranger class's favored enemies should be phlebotomist. (Stupid traumatic childhood.)
I think an eye shot such as the one you mentioned would be a critical hit. Now what would be the critical hit for a syringe, and how would a critical hit affect the delivery of the agent?
As for the cost of the syringe in a standard Eberron campaign you're supposed to use the equipment lists in the PHB to figure out the prices of things. If you change the cost of technologically advanced items then everything from spyglasses to magnifying glasses would be a whole lot less expensive. Also, Eberron's technology level is somewhat dependant on the geographical area. I think it would be almost impossible to get a syringe in the Shadow Marches or the jungles of Q'barra, so they would still be very expensive.
If you read Filge's description in issue #124 you see that the syringe deals no damage when it hits. The problem with syringes that deal lethal damage is that its possible for someone with a high strength to kill a 3 hp commoner with a syringe.I suppose if a half-orc stuck a syringe in a 3hp commoner's eye it could be considered lethal damage. But yeah, I get what you're saying. It should be the concoction in the syringe that needs to be worried about, not the little needle delivering it. Unless you're me, in which case the needle worries me far more than what might be behind it. But then I think one of the ranger class's favored enemies should be phlebotomist. (Stupid traumatic childhood.)
Greg, I'm totally with you, man. Ohhhhhhhhhh, how I HATE needles. Giving blood? Ha ha ha! Yeah, right!!!
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Fellow peeps....My PC's were in bad shape after the Filge fight. 2 down and bleeding, the Hexblade at 2 hp, and the bard at 2...no healing at all. So what I did was made all of Filges potions CLWs...It was awesome watching them squirm when they had to realize that to keep their friends fron dying, they had to use the needle that was just stuck into the weird ass necromancer...It was worth the whole adventure...
...it becomes hard to imagine the manufacture of a thin metal needle with a hollow center...
What about a hollow center with a thin metal needle? Doesn't matter...that +2 turkey baster/4-guage cardiac spike with an 8-ounce payload Filge is holding ain't no hypodermic...it looks like one of the instruments from Dead Ringers.
LG
I'm with you guys on the cost of a syringe;
On damage...The correct operation of a syringe requires finesse, not strength, so I would say that the syringe does 1hp of non-lethal damage (that even a squeamish commoner scould survive); any harder of an impact would break the syringe - not just the needle, either. Of course, diliberately breaking it is another story; I'd say that it would be d4-1 non-lethal, on a diliberate break.
I would allow the Weapon Finesse feat for hitting with a syringe...
As far as potions... I'll concede the point that they are meant to be drunk and not injected, as opposed to contact or injury poisons; those of us who use the BoVD should include drugs, also, in what is allowed.
M
...it becomes hard to imagine the manufacture of a thin metal needle with a hollow center...What about a hollow center with a thin metal needle? Doesn't matter...that +2 turkey baster/4-guage cardiac spike with an 8-ounce payload Filge is holding ain't no hypodermic...it looks like one of the instruments from Dead Ringers.
LG
Cronenberg. >:)
Ah, yes. Well explained
I can see it now.
For some reason, the end of that film left me sad. Eh, I guess the English Patient does it for some people. My heartstrings are as easily plucked by twisted twins with customized alienesque gynogear.
Geeze you guys have a tuff time beliving in a needle when there are people "whipping" lightning from there bare hands, Huh?
Geeze you guys have a tuff time beliving in a needle when there are people "whipping" lightning from there bare hands, Huh?
Right you are, sir. Sort of.
It is a bit like complaining that Woody Woodpecker went from being three feet tall to eight inches tall in the same scene.
Thing is, people demand the suspension of disbelief from their fiction. Even when in a realm of the ludicrous or farfetched, there has to be a homogenous quality to these aspects. The movie Family Vacation didn't play out much like cinema verite but one scene to the next made sense within the implausible reality that the film had already established.
I never would have had an issue with the syringe until the question was raised here by these pedantic troublemakers.
CONVERTED. :)
I think where the syringe gave rise to questions is that lightning from bare hands, although miraculous, is magic in world of magic. It exists outside the domain of science, while a syringe seems the product of machinists and industry that we've never seen from the main humanoid races in the D&D worlds.
The inverse would be watching an epidsode of Everybody Loves Raymond where his older brother Robbie complains one last time and then blasts Raymond into proto-goo with a blistering succession of vile fireballs. That would be an unpalatable tone change for normal people. I mean, I'd die, right there in my seat...
So, sure, if a wizard could create a syringe magically, I'd be fine with that.
I'd just as soon see the needle replaced in description with a petrified reed. It quashes many of the construction questions and perhaps has us looking at it less like a potential weapon and more like a delivery system.
Either way, I loved the needle idea. Mona pushed the boundaries in a very 1st edition let-us-be-daring-cuz-who-is-really-gonna-notice sort of way.
An additional note about first to second addition:
Second addition was, in small part, seemed a retooling to avoid being sued again by parents of disturbed kids.
Mazes and Monsters anyone?
They did away with demons and replaced them with the plusher sounding tamari, tan Ari (hideous and horrifying), Ta'nari... something like that.
You never hear about the boy who died eating clay cuz he thought he was Gumby. Art Clokey paid the family off in Pokey dolls and all was forgiven. Okay, never happened, but you get my point.
I am so grateful for the new boundaries of 3e+.
Abet, gnomes can do the most wonderful things these days.
But in reality, (yuck*), i find DMs are the ones who need a total suspension of disbelief, thus the reason DMs are DMs and players are players i guess. Players it seems need less to fufill there imagination and DMs squabble (on message boards or themselves) on the "reailisim" whereas players are more than content to "let a sleeping dog lie." Of course even i have a player who DMs once and a while and hes got the same problem to.
If the syringe is being used to administer potions, then I would handle it just like a person pouring a potion into someone elses mouth, or their own for that matter.
If the syringe was being used to administer a poison or toxin, then I would go with a non damaging melee attack follower with the save for the toxin/poison at say a +2 DC since the toxin/poison was directly inserted into the blood stream in a controled dose. Say versus getting hit with a poaion arrow or something.
Maybe the use of a syringe also halves the time to the secondary effect of the toxin/poison.
ASEO out
Abet, gnomes can do the most wonderful things these days.
But in reality, (yuck*), i find DMs are the ones who need a total suspension of disbelief, thus the reason DMs are DMs and players are players i guess. Players it seems need less to fufill there imagination and DMs squabble (on message boards or themselves) on the "reailisim" whereas players are more than content to "let a sleeping dog lie." Of course even i have a player who DMs once and a while and hes got the same problem to.
Ah yes, Forgot about those innovative lil gnomes.
They could make syringes in their sleep, couldn't they?
I just can't generalize the differences between DMs and players. I've seen my share of rules nazi players and I've seen some really under-prepared and under-educated DMs.
For me, as a writer, it isn't about strict adherence necessarily, though I do want everyone to consider that which I provide to be accurate. It's about giving the players the most consistent and believable fantasy I can deliver and never lowball my effort.
DM or player, whichever station I find myself in I am still me. When I watch a movie and there's holes in the script's logic, I am in hell without a holyman How is it 200 seperate people work on a film, at least 20 in an creative or editorial capacity, and it ruins itself with inconsistencies or cookie cutter surprises you saw coming a mile away?
Coming here to squabble defines one as a squabbler more than a DM, I think.
Then again, maybe certain generalities are true. I know I prefer the control of weaving the story to engaging it. I also prefer to play live music to listening. I can't watch sports but I'll go out back and toss a ball.
But so what? Without us DMs the players would sit there at the table staring at each other in silence, scratching themselves and fiddling wit dey funny liddul die.
Either that or they'd just play an online RPG... the bastids.
I thought the syringe is a very interesting idea. I start to wonder at the technology level.
I had a similar reaction to the syringe - that it was a piece of incongruous technology. Then I realized I was reacting to the word "syringe" more than the item itself; like calling a Ring of Shocking Grasp a defibrillator.
Maybe I can get past that by having Filge call it a "stinger" or "fang" or something else from nature designed to deliver a poison through a thin piercing weapon. Also, instead of saying "needle", it could be described as an extremely thin bone with the marrow sucked out; something only a Necromancer could do. It would be like the technology in Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, where the fun was in trying to describe it as anything but what it actually is.
Oddly enough, I just found out that the word "syringe" has a very fantasy-friendly word origin: "syrinx", the nymph that inspired Pan to make the first pan-flute out of reeds.
Actually, I think syrinx is a neat alternative for syringe, and the sharpened bone with the marrow sucked out of it idea is great.
Ophryon, I'm in love with your mind!
The syringe doesn't bother me, especially since the one in the picture looks like something for Herr-Doktor Frankenstien's laboratory.
Fax machines, electric toothbrushes, lawn mowers, T-34s...definitely out of the question. Well, except for the T-34. Wasn't there one in Baba Yaga's Hut?
LG
I had a similar reaction to the syringe - that it was a piece of incongruous technology. Then I realized I was reacting to the word "syringe" more than the item itself; like calling a Ring of Shocking Grasp a defibrillator.
Maybe I can get past that by having Filge call it a "stinger" or "fang" or something else from nature designed to deliver a poison through a thin piercing weapon. Also, instead of saying "needle", it could be described as an extremely thin bone with the marrow sucked out; something only a Necromancer could do. It would be like the technology in Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, where the fun was in trying to describe it as anything but what it actually is.
Oddly enough, I just found out that the word "syringe" has a very fantasy-friendly word origin: "syrinx", the nymph that inspired Pan to make the first pan-flute out of reeds.
I didn't experience sensitivity to the word, but I did find myself, like you, wanting to change the material make-up of the device. I like the bone idea quite a bit.
The syrinx is also the actual named for a pan flute. Got one right here next to me. Don't play it all that well. I like the tie-in to flute and reed. Very nice. I had thought a reed might provide a reasonable facsimile for a needle. It's found in nature and one might augment its hardness with spells, natural effects or natural phenomena.
I think the text of the adventure makes it clear that the liquids Filge is injecting aren't simply ordinary potions: "...a soapy liquid substance consisting of reanimated cells...effectively a potion of gentle repose,..." Although they duplicate the effects of some potions, they are actually a unique creation of Filge's, developed in the course of his necromantic research.
I love the idea of calling them syrixes - though I'm not sure how the players would ever hear that word.
I love the idea of calling them syrixes - though I'm not sure how the players would ever hear that word.
No Rush fans in the group, I guess.
"We are the priests... of the temples of Syrinx... all the gifts of life... are here within our walls..."
Hey, I just carbon dated myself.
Doh! - Sorry, Jade, I totally meant to mention your excellent petrified reed idea, which got me thinking about other materials in the first place!
I think a syringe would be treated as light piercing weapon that requires the Exotic Weapon feat to use in combat (have you ever seen someone jab a hostile person with a syringe without resorting to trickery, surprise, or a lot of grief?)
I think this is spot on. Perhaps the only way a non-proficient user could inject a potion into a hostile target is through a successful Bluff check (trickery), against a flat-footed opponent (surprise), or after a successful grapple/pin (a lot of grief). Like N'Wah said above - very cinematic.
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I wouldn't allow the syringe to overcome DR unless it possessed the proper material/enchantment/alignment combo, and I'd make it a melee touch attack that provokes an attack of opportunity. One could also use it in a grapple, making for some pretty intense moments. The whole thing would look pretty cinematic.N'Wah, I think that making the delivery a melee touch attack that provokes an AoO is a good call. The cinematic possibilities are definitely fun. I don't think that a syringe itself would do more than 1 point of damage...unless you really tried to make the injection hurt with violent movement or something (which is where the +Str might come in). After all, syringe's are supposed to be designed to cause as little physical damage as possible, aren't they? And we're talking about a very thin, weak tube of metal, so being overly forceful will risk bending the needle and making it practically useless for delivering the potion.
I was a medic in the Navy and one thing I learned is that a needle can cause a lot of tissue dmg. Not hurting the patiant is about techniqe and if you do it wrong you could tear a muscle or bust a vein (this has happenes when a person is thrashing around and won't cooperate). A needle is still a long pointed object and if you stick the right spot you could seriously injure or kill someone. Also, only recently have needles become smaller and people friendly so I would guess in a less advanced setting the needles would be longer and thicker than what is availible. Besides if you look at the illustration of Filge you can see that he has a good sized needle and syringe. Many people would start whimpering just looking at that thing coming at them. Just to illustrate a point, I have witnessed "big bad-ass marines" faint at the sight of a cm long needle.
I think the text of the adventure makes it clear that the liquids Filge is injecting aren't simply ordinary potions: "...a soapy liquid substance consisting of reanimated cells...effectively a potion of gentle repose,..." Although they duplicate the effects of some potions, they are actually a unique creation of Filge's, developed in the course of his necromantic research.
Quite apart from the delivery system. How do you create the payload? Off the top of my head, you'd need a high Heal modifier and Brew Potion at the very least.
But imagine the fun you could have with a modified version of a potion of delayed blast fireball.