Is it just me, or are the wind warriors in the true tomb a TPK waiting to happen? What is to prevent them from just hovering over party members 20 feet, and blasting them with sonic attacks every round until they are dead? Most third level PC's will have no means of flying, and peppering them with arrows or Magic Missiles is chancy, considering they don't have to roll to hit, and can do 2d6 per round.
My solution was to treat their sonic attacks like breath weapons, ie, they could only be used every d4 rounds. Also, one of the PC's in our group is an aasimar, who took the feat celestial wings, and could thus fly (though he was the first to fall in the combat).
Just wondering...
My solution for these guys (I haven't run them yet) is to not have them fly. I know they could be really tactical with the PCs, but in my opinion, their purpose is to guard the tomb entrance, so they would keep themselves between the PCs and the entrance at all times (Intelligence is 8).
Another point: Remember that this isn't just the final encounter at the end of a dungeon, where the PCs have had to fought through other minions or traps. . . The PCs will have JUST come from the surface, retracing their steps without urgency. Odds are, the PCs will be fully healed, at 3rd level, and have taken advantage of Filge's posessions to equip themselves further. . . it should be a great fight.
Is it just me, or are the wind warriors in the true tomb a TPK waiting to happen?
My thoughts exactly when I read their stats. My solution to the inherent deadliness of almost all published adventures (this encounter is EL 6!!!) is more more PCs. Send an NPC with them (Melinde?) and deck her out with ranged weapons and/or magic. Or just have lots of PCs. I think ruling that they aren't smart enough to use their abilities is a little naive. Even animals know how to use their flying and special attacks.
Well, actually our group has SIX PC's, and it was still a tough fight. Some of them started heading for the wind column, and I had the warriors opt to defend that first, so they charged headlong into those PC's, bringing them into melee range. One of the more brute PC's grappled one of them, and the warrior was unable to break free.
Is it just me, or are the wind warriors in the true tomb a TPK waiting to happen? What is to prevent them from just hovering over party members 20 feet, and blasting them with sonic attacks every round until they are dead? Most third level PC's will have no means of flying, and peppering them with arrows or Magic Missiles is chancy, considering they don't have to roll to hit, and can do 2d6 per round.
My solution was to treat their sonic attacks like breath weapons, ie, they could only be used every d4 rounds. Also, one of the PC's in our group is an aasimar, who took the feat celestial wings, and could thus fly (though he was the first to fall in the combat).
Just wondering...
Although my PC's (six total) are only minutes away from encountering Alastor Land and his tickling tentacled Grick neighbor, I must admit the final encounter has been weighing on my mind for some time. This is my take on it:
Emphasize, re-emphasize, and then emphasize sommore that this adventure is a journey through the WHISPERING Cairn, Tomb of the WIND duke Zosiel, with Glyphs written in Vaati, considered the original written form of Auran, language of the AIR elementals. In other words, utilize the DC knowledge checks to their fullest by giving your players as much heads up as possible that need to be prepared to battle airbourne nasties.
Even if their checks are far from successful, Have Allustan or another NPC from Diamond Lake drop some timely hints to this effect.
Regarding the Wind Warriors themselves, in no way can these be considered CR4 creatures. Whomever developed these bombs sure'n hell did not use and/or consult the monster advancement template from the Monster Manual, or anything else that resembles v 3.5 Here's why:
In order to gauge the strength of these creatures with something we are more familiar with, I will be using the stats from a medium Air Elemental, and advancing it using the rules set forth by the Monster Manual. Notice first that a medium Air Elemental is a CR3 creture, with a powerful but limited Whirlwind attack (it can only be used for 2 rounds, and the elemental cannot make slam attacks nor threaten adjacent squares while in this form), and 2 rudimentary bonus feats.
1. Comparing ability scores of the medium Air Elemental to the Wind Warrior (+5 overall bonus to +9, respectively) one could argue a CR advancement is justified. Hoewever, the MM doesn't explain how to calculate going from an elite ability array to an 'epic' array (for lack of a better term), so i'll not explore this further.
2. Superior two-weapon fighting: Powerful, but limited (i.e. it requires a full round action, as well as engagement in melee, neither of which are advantagious to the Wind Warrior)and at about the same power as a whirlwind ability. Both of these qualities 'improve combat effectiveness in a minor way' so are good fro a +1 to CR and, likewise, cancel each other out.
3. Body suffusion: Decent ability, but limited in its scope of combat effectiveness, and doesn't justify a CR advancement
4. Sonic Blast: Mojo Mama! its an AOE that deals out 2d6 sonic damage-reflex DC 15 half (name me a PC that has sonic DR, and i'll name you a god), is a standard action, and can be washed/rinsed/repeated each round??? Definately qualifies as 'significantly improving combat effectiveness', good for +2 CR
5. Conclusion: even if you ignore the +9 ability bonuses and the body suffusion ex, you still got a CR5 creature, minimum. This puts the EL for this encounter at 7, which is totally unacceptable for a party of 4 3rd level characters. Even though I am running a campaign with six experienced players, I am gonna extend the sonic blast SU to a full round action, and utilize my skillz in descriptive text to satisfy the necessary 'shock an awe' us Dms so desperately need as closure to a boss encounter. :)
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Luckily, and I stress that big time, the mage in the party that i ran through it was 3rd level, and had Scorching Ray, and 2 Magic Missiles memorized. The Priestess of Heiroeous had Shield of Faith, and the Hexblade wears the +1 Chainmail. The Bard sang, the Hexblade cursed one, The Priest and Hexblade fought with the Mage blasting the Priests WD. At the end of the fight, the Bard and Mage were the only one standing, and it took a lucky hit from the bard, with his +1 Shortsword ( he is a Halfling ) to take out the last WD...A very tough encounter...but I did not have them flying either...and each one only got off 1 sonic attack.
I'm going to have Alastor give the party a last piece of advice for going the extra mile in getting his family's bones back.
"The guardians...they fly"
That should be enough for my group to gear up for flying enemies.
Creative Director
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The final encounter is supposed to be tough; the adventure, as written, assumes the PCs reach the wind warriors at full strength. That said, if you think they're too tough, my recomendation is to remove one of them from the encounter rather than bumping up their CR.
As for developing monsters... I did the development for the wind warriors, and I stand by their CR 4 rating. They're certainly on the high end of CR 4... tougher for sure than another CR 4 critter like a griffon.
The primary measuring stick I used for them was the Medium and Large air elemental. The wind warrior's stats pretty much place it right between these two. They have the advantage of a sonic blast, but when compared to a CR 5 Large air elemental, they're clearly not as tough. The CR 5 elemental, after all, has more hit ponits, a better AC, does more damage, has reach, and has some pretty powerful damage reduction.
The wind warrior is certainly a tough opponent, especailly if he faces a party with no ranged weapon or spell use. If your party doesn't have anyone who uses ranged weapons or has ranged damage spells, I'd definately recomend adjusting the encounter. If the party has ranged attacks and spells, and uses good tactics (like spreading out to dilute the sonic blast's efficiency), they should be able to make it through.
Also, I can't speak for how your players react, but if my players stand there getting clobbered without regrouping or retreating, then they get what they deserve. But my players realize this going in. ;-)
As for a solution, this scenario has no urgency to it (as mentioned earlier). If your party's getting their #!@ kicked by the sonic attacks, the easy answer is to retreat. There's nothing in the text indicating the Wind Warriors will pursue them very far. Wait a day, have the party cleric memorizes a Silence spell or two and the problem is solved.
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Is it just me, or are the wind warriors in the true tomb a TPK waiting to happen? What is to prevent them from just hovering over party members 20 feet, and blasting them with sonic attacks every round until they are dead?
Absolutely nothing.
What's preventing the PCs getting out of the way?
Once my PCs realised the WW could fly, they legged it for the wind tunnel, which meant the showdown took place in the cramped room with Zosiel's sarcophagus.
A more pressing question is 'How do you get out of the true tomb?'.
Thankfully, the dwarf cleric had cast Comprehend Languages on the alcove frescoes down below, so I could fudge that there was a command phrase in the carvings, which calmed the winds for a minute, allowing the PCs to feather fall back to the walkway.
Did I miss something, or did it get lost in the edit?
:)
The Wind Warriors are tough final fight, to be sure. Not so bad as the Ebon Aspect, but a challenge for a group of 3rd level players. Since they are the first thing after putting the ghost to rest, I think that it is more than reasonable to assume the party should be at full capacity, and there isn't really anything after that they need worry about.
I didn't modify them at all. The first time I ran this adventure, they did kill one PC. The second time, they did well but everyone walked away more or less intact. Both parties loved the creatures and thought they were awesome, and I can't wait to throw the advanced versions at them in the later AP.
I'm still wondering how my group survived, we got there without finishing some in town stuff, so we were still at level 2.
There were 5 of us (Human Fighter, Human Paladin, Gnome Sorcerer, Half-Orc Rogue and Human Cleric), and we are using action points. Without them I'm pretty sure we'd have been TPKd.
(I'm still playing in the game so I'm trying to avoid spoilers)
My group had six PCs vs. three wind warriors. Wiped the floor with 'em. They did have action points, but I don't think they even used them.
I didn't have the wind warriors try too much "safespotting", though the party was balanced and did have ranged members. In fact, I think one of the wind warriors on the ground got killed by ranged weapons before anyone else could reach it in melee.
We just played this encounter at the weekend with six Pathfinder (rather than 3.5) PCs of lvls 1-2. Primary PC tactic was to spread out and pepper them with ranged attacks - Ranger, Gunslinger, Halfling Rogue with sling etc. One died, and three others were down and bleeding before the other two finished them off. Primary PC tactic was to spread out and pepper them with ranged attacks - Ranger, Gunslinger, Halfling Rogue with sling etc.
So, difficult, but survivable for a large party of lvls 1-3. I think would be almost impossible for just 4 PCs though unless they were very smart/lucky.