Agreed. Where are the Maps of Mystery? Where are the Critical Threats? Dare I ever ask what ever happened to poor Side Treks?
Add that to nonsense like Downer, Wil Save, articles that BELONG IN DRAGON and an avalance of Eberron and now there's supposed to be less Greyhawk, too, when Dungeon was this pretty much this neglected setting's only outlet (I pray this last bit is just a rumor).
In any case, Dungeon's ultility is dropping like a cow from a helicopter, and I fully expect the mag to make just as big a mess when it finally hits bottom.
As it is, I'll probably re-up my Dragon subscription, but Dungeon is not giving me enough for my money anymore.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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The whole business about a reduction in Greyhawk content has been vastly overstated. I urge Greyhawk fans to read just the first adventure in the Age of Worms before making a judgment.
We have several Greyhawk articles coming down the pike. Rest assured.
I'm surprised to see so much positive commentary on Maps of Mystery and Critical Threats. We often cut those features for space reasons, figuring that any map in the magazine is a "map of mystery," and any NPC is a potential "critical threat." It's becoming clear to me that our approach is too simplistic, so I'd expect to see a return of those features in the relatively near future.
The Mini-Games are gone, and they're not coming back. If they or other Polyhedron content were your primary reason for buying the magazine there's not a lot we'll be doing in the next year to make you happier.
One of you (GVD) says he has no interest in simply pre-packaged adventures. The other (Yamo) says everything other than the pre-packaged adventures are crap meant for Dragon.
It's a fun balancing act, let me tell you.
All I can really say is that the magazine is not viable when it publishes only adventures. Many, many years of sales data backs that up. When you add other material, interest seems to rise, and sales rise with it.
For good or ill (I believe for good), Dungeon has widened its focus beyond just providing adventures. I don't foresee that changing in the near future.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon
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Well, I will happily disagree with the three of you. I feel that Dungeon just keeps improving and is a decidedly great investment of my money. Completely laying aside the agruments about the merits/distractions of Downer (which I love) or Wil Save (which I am amused or ambivilant to on a case by case basis), etc, I don't thing your argument completely holds water.
I do miss the Maps of Mystery and Critical Threats as well, but look over the boards and it's been discussed pretty thoroughly why they are in a 'holding pattern'.
I am primarily a Greyhawk fan and, similar to you, it would be physically impossible for me to care less about FR or Eberron content as settings. But I don't find it a major hardship to convert most of the adventures from those settings into Greyhawk. I mean, I'm a busy guy with a family, job, and other claims on my time, but I just don't see how tweaking a good story, or good story elements to fit my ongoing campaign is that much of a backbreaking effort. (Full Disclosure: I don't have a current ongoing campaign sit-down game because of players moving, deployments, and other factors. Right now I'm just running a couple play-by-messageboard games).
And let me say, being a Greyhawk fan, I don't feel as though Oerth is getting completely shafted... With awesome pieces like Return to Maure Castle, Isle of Dread, Greg Vaughn's Istivin saga, and The Shackled City arc, I think that Greyhawk has been dealt some very nice material. With the 12 piece, extra-crispy Age of Worms and more Maure Castle looming large, it looks like it's just going to get even more juicy.
I guess I just think that dungeon should be an aid to your game, not your game itself. Overall, I love what's going on in Dungeon. Here's my cash, make some more.
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I'll say one thing about GVD, he certainly knows how to start a good conversation. Time and time again. If I'm correct AoW is being made Greyhawk-lite in the anticipation of bundling the 12 together like the Shackled City arc and resold again in one complete book. Fine by me. Those in the know will realize its GH content even if 'Greyhawk' isn't plastered on the cover. Despite the arrangement of the magazine's pieces, it has still been better quality material (including its art and maps!)overall than anything WotC has put out.
We all have our pet agendas for Dungeon, but overall I have to say that Erik Mona and crew have done a bang up job keeping the majority of us readers/subscribers happy. I would definitely love to see more Greyhawk specific (very, very specific!) adventures there, but as long as there is at least a little of that, I'm happy. Nearly everything else can be adapted to my WoG campaign assuming I haven't already written my own material, which is the case most of the time.
I thought the Maps of Mystery were cool, but I never actually got around to using any of them. Ditto, the Critical Threats.
Anyway, count me as one of the "very satisfied" guys.
Ditto what Greer said;
Keep in mind people, that aside from being gamers themselves (like all of us...), the Paizo staff are PROFESSIONALS in the magazine business.
Let's not presume to tell these guys how to do their job when they're not telling you how to do yours, whatever it may be.
And if you don't work for a living, just shut up until you're old enough to know.
Marc
"shut up"
Thanks for your valued contribution to the discussion.
I like the new format... I've been subscribing for about a year and a half now with the intention of starting a game once my group got back together. It's about to happen. Now I can happly go over all my back issues and string a few sessions together of my stuff and the stuff in the magazine. I also miss the maps of mystery and critical threats but I like the Wil Save as well. I see someone of my age I can laugh with about being a geek... He's just a famous geek.
As I stated before. I thing the format is great.
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As you can see by my Avatar, I am a fan of Downer. I am also a fan of the "missing" Critical Threat and Maps of Mystery articles. As a working DM, I am program director of a non-profit so I work more than 40 a week, I am eternally grateful for the manna that is Dungeon Magazine. To me it is more useful than Dragon, though I subscribe to that as well. Here are my thoughts on the given "products" offered by Dungeon.
1) Adventure Path Articles -- Though the first campaign was set in Greyhawk (my favorite setting closely followed by Mystara) and I am running an Eberron Campaign, I found this series enormously useful. Both as published adventures and as a "How to write a campaign" workshop. The use of reoccurring villains and the buildup to a final end were extremely helpful. Though I only used two of the path, and even then not as printed, these articles were amazing. Imagine if you will Jzadirune as a pre-War of the Mark gnome city under Sharn, or even as a former Goblinoid one. The slight modification makes the adventure a natural fit.
2) Published articles -- I am continually in need of NPCs and adventure ideas. I try as hard as I can to maintain "campaign continuity" and let the PCs affect future events, but adventures like "Dragon Hunt" can become adventures in Xen'drik pretty easily.
3) Greyhawk content -- Greyhawk is the default world of D&D now. The gods in the PHB are Greyhawk gods and the races are Greyhawk standard. Besides, Greyhawk is "generic" enough that it can be modified easily. I know...blasphemy! But it is true. While Greyhawk has a particularly political bent, with well established villains, it does have room for "conversion." Scarlet Brotherhood adventure? Why not convert that to an "Inspired" adventure involving the Dreaming Dark? Both are tyrannical regimes with secrets and monks.
4) Cartoons -- I like the inclusion of cartoons in the magazine. Downer is a good example as are the other strips like Portent. Personally, I would like to see some single panel cartoons as well.
5) Wil Save -- While I often find Wil Save to be entertaining, it is like reading a second "letter from the editor" and to be honest Erik Mona's narratives interest me more. Erik's experiences as a gamer are more "spot on" and less about raising children. Wil's articles seem more like personal journal fare than Dungeon editorials.
6) Monte Cook's articles -- Great resource.
7) Mini-Games -- These were awesome. I know they were the victim of much complaint, and aren't coming back any time soon (or ever), but I thought they were a great addition. Not every one of them was perfect, but they were a good and noble experiment. I for one would be willing to buy pdf copies of "alternate universes." I did after all buy all the Horizon line by Fantasy Flight Games. If paizo could find a way to sell new mini-games while making it profitable, I would be the first to buy them all.
8) Erik Mona -- Great editor! He brings genuine excitement to the position and listens to his audience.
Just my thoughts and I welcome others.
I'm surprised to see so much positive commentary on Maps of Mystery and Critical Threats. We often cut those features for space reasons, figuring that any map in the magazine is a "map of mystery," and any NPC is a potential "critical threat." It's becoming clear to me that our approach is too simplistic,
Nah, your approach is right, it's the others that are being too simplistic in requiring a map to be labeled a "Map of Mystery" or a NPC to be a "Critical Threat". Dungeon is full of both every issue that just aren't labeled that way.
Nah, your approach is right, it's the others that are being too simplistic in requiring a map to be labeled a "Map of Mystery" or a NPC to be a "Critical Threat". Dungeon is full of both every issue that just aren't labeled that way.
I think you might be guilty of the same here DMFTodd. Although I am not dropping the magazine because Maps of Mystery aren't included anymore, there is something to be said for a cool map with no backstory. Your own private dungeon to play 'house' in as it were.
As for Critical Threats I'm sad it's gone for purely selfish reasons. It means none of the ones I sent in are ever going to see print having been relegated to the infamous black hole I imagine. Its a shame because I love well-done rogues' gallery type articles and source books. I almost bought Lords of Darkness even though I can't stand 'the Realms'. Important characters that show up in adventures are usually given a paragraph or two and a headshot picture but the elements are usually spread thoughout the adventure (the backstory, the stat block, a tactics section and/or an appendix). Here's an idea: if that important character is going to take up a page or two in the adventure anyway just make him/her/it a Critical Threat right there in the middle of the adveture sure it wastes a little space with the fancy header and all but its an extra header to catch someone's eye as they flip through the magazine on the newstand.
As a DM I can always use interesting characters regardless of where they are from. Just as the Sim/Civ player in me loves the idea of a map (any map). I'm retooling "City Beyond the Gate" (Dragon #100) for a future campaign arch and am going to use the Global Positioning Maps for my modern day London interiors.
I think what people like about short little "snapshots" like Critical Threats and Maps of Mystery is that they are little self-contained stories waiting to happen. Best of all you can look at them and get a sense of them very quickly, sort of in the same vein as Wil Save or Erik's Editorial. War Duke (CT) could be living in the Cryomancer's Lair (MoM) guarding his magic tooth pick (WS) and feeding his enemies to the explosion dogs (Editorial). I think it all boils down to approach. Just as some writers prefer to work from a meaty premise while others start with strong characters, some gamers like the whole ball of wax while others just want a wick. They're both right just different.
Simplistically yours,
Great Green God
And if you don't work for a living, just shut up until you're old enough to know.
I could say the same about folks who don't understand the role customer feedback plays in business.
But that would be rude...
I'm not completely happy with what appears in Dungeon on a regular basis, but that is largely based on two things:
1.) I don't play the edition of D&D the magazine is geared to, my problem, not Paizo's, so I don't raise the issue here.
2.) I often disagree with the interpretation of Greyhawk lore the authors and editor of the Dungeon articles have. Not a topic worth debating here, so I don't bring it up much here.
Here's the big point though, I don't buy Dungeon on a regular basis, so I don't have any particular right to complain about the content, so I don't. Not here at least, arguements about the nature of Greyhawk content that take place elsewhere are another matter.
Those folks who do buy the magazine have every right to complain about content, or suggest what they would like to see. That's not telling Paizo how to do their job, that's telling a business how to further please its customers.
And if you don't work for a living, just shut up until you're old enough to know.
Oh, and being that I "know" (in the "ive talked to them quite a bit online" sense) at least half the folks who've posted here in this thread, I think it's very safe to assume we're all job holding adults.
I've always found Dungeon a good buy. Even the adventures that I don't use in their "pure" format, I use for their NPC's, their settings, the maps, whatever. I may chop them up to my liking, move them, change around whole portions of it....that's almost more fun than writing my own "Saturday Night homebrew"
I modify all the adventures to fit my campaigns. I ran Greyhawk back in the 80's and again now, with the Realms from '87 to about '98. When I don't use an adventure, I "borrow" the NPC's, maps, settings, villages, towns or any other cool idea and use them to populate my own campaign setting.
I actually don't care for the critical threats, the maps of mystery, the other "filler" stuff in Dungeon. I also don't like the "side trek" adventures....not that I don't use them, but the adventures are always appreciated.
Certainly some are better written than others, but being one of those "working" people, Dungeon is a time saver that allows me to be a better DM. Quite honestly, I'm not sure I could put the effort into DMing that I need to and I really don't know whether or not I'd actually run a D&D game if it wasn't for Dungeon.....'nuff said on my end.
Wow... a marginal purchase? i wait longingly each month for my dungeon magazine. I would pay double for them. I would subscribe to 24 issues a year. I liked it even when it was full of things i didn't like, use, read... I would pay paizo the measly subscription rate they charge me if they sent me an editorial and some ads each month... (ok maybe i would need a cartoon or an adventure)
I subscribe to many magazines (news, parenting, computer, gaming). I cannot think of a single magazine i own that i enjoyed/found value in every single article or issue. When i read the nit picking complaints on these boards and in the letters column i wonder at the patience the people who edit this magazine have for the hobby they must love (they ain't gettin' rich).
I have a challenge for the guys out there (and the two girls as well). Before your next complaint letter to Dungeon try and find an equally minor fault with your partners cooking, cleaning, body, hair, or a gift they gave you. I wonder if they would respond by stating that "your feed back is important to help them do a better job in the future..." - no really try it, and let us know how it goes here.
Seems to be that if the magazine sales are rising (and, if I'm not mistaken, they are) then the folks at Dungeon are doing their job. As much as this is a tool for fun, when it comes right down to it, the magazine is a business. If changes sell more copies and those changes continue to sell more copies, and the feedback is more in the "yay" than the "nay" column, then the Dungeon folks are doing just fine.
Seriously - when it comes right down to it, whether or not an individual finds the magazine 100% satisfying, or likes where the magazine is going isn't going to matter as much as whether the majority likes it enough to purchase it.
One can 'style' or 'principle' a magazine right out of business. Eric and his folks haven't - and I'm quite happy about that. I don't read "Downer," and I miss the "Critical Threats," but I'm happy with 80-90% of the magazine each month, so I subscribed. As a customer, your feedback is always going to be important, but it's your dollar that will speak the most.
I have never had the slightest interest in buying Dungeon just for pre-made adventures. I write my own and do not require the assist. I will read the adventures but usually for their Greyhawk content. I’m happy even if an otherwise generic adventure has a sidebar that says - On Oerth, City X is City Y; the A Mountains are the B Mountains etc. This is not usually done, however.While there are some very fine and notable exceptions (Incursion etc.), generic adventures generally leave me cold. Somebody’s Saturday night home brew that made it through the spellchecker and grammatix to arrive at Paizo is still, IMO, too often still identifiable as somebody’s Saturday night homebrew. Most are mildly clever at best and if that, with their chief merit seeming to lie in the author having assembled the 3E stats for the monsters and NPCs. Pass.
I have a difficult time fathoming why you buy Dungeon at all. If I thought that most of the adventures were basically worthless and terribly written to boot I'd never pick up the magazine.
I very much suspect that almost none of the advnetures in Dungeon are somebody's home brew. I'd bet that for 80% or more of them the very first time they were played as an adventure was during some kind of a playtesting stage. It seems to me (from a number of ancedotal sources such as the guidlines and old editorials) that the vast majority of the adventures start out as a cool concept.
The concept - and not the finished product - are submitted to Dungeon staff. If the concept is approved (often with suggestions for changes) by the Dungeon staff then the authour of the piece goes ahead and writes up the adventure. After which it may go through a number of rewrites due to comments from the editorial staff at Dungeon. None of this is conductive to trying to transplant ones homebrew directly into Dungeon Magazine. Sure ones home campaign might provide insperation for a concept which could then be submitted to Dungeon for consideration but such concepts might as easily come from brainstorming and flipping through the books as from some specific adventures designed for ones home campaign. The home campaigns adventures probably tend to revolve around your players in anycase...great for a home brew but usually not so good for a generic adventure that DMs everywhere can use.
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I for one enjoy every issue that arrives in my mailbox. I am playing in the sandbox right now, so my magazines arrive quite a bit late, but I still relish every free moment I am able to spend reading Dungeon. The Shackled City AP has been a real life saver, I and my friends are really enjoying it. I didn't find it difficult at all to adjust to Ebberron. I deffinately do not have the time right now to create my own adventures, though that is my great love. It has probably been said and will probably be said again, purhasing the magazine is your choice, not one that the folks at Paizo has forced on you. My money is well spent.
Tam
Oh, and being that I "know" (in the "ive talked to them quite a bit online" sense) at least half the folks who've posted here in this thread, I think it's very safe to assume we're all job holding adults.And if you don't work for a living, just shut up until you're old enough to know.
Then that would imply that the statement doesn't apply to you, correct?
I was referring to minors who have no comprehension of the editorial, marketing or business fields.
And, customer feedback is different from griping about editorial decisions that have already been made based on that very same customer feedback; the griping comes from the minority who were cut off.
If anyone hadn't noticed, I've not offered any opinion yay or nay about the content of Dungeon because my subscription ran out months ago and I've yet to find a reason to renew; other than the Adventure Path issues, 90% of ALL the content I find unsuitable to my game. I don't fault Paizo, I just write my own material as I have for years, using snippets of those adventures for neat encounters, items, tricks and plot hooks.
To me, Dungeon is an idea source, not an adventure source. I was just offering my vote of confidence and support to Erik and crew.
- A customer-service professional
Thanks for the praise GVDammerung. I'm glad someone other than me liked what I wrote :).
Maybe I'll submit it as an invention exchange.
Oh Most Benevolent and Deific Editors,
How about laying out major adventure villains (i.e. Gathra from Root of Evil, Bauconjin from Quicksilver Hourglass, etc...) who have one or more pages of text describing their character and stats done in the style of a "Critical Threat". In this way a casual browser can pick up the magazine at a newstand and be able see the main (or a significant) "baddie" of the adventure without having to flip though the whole thing looking for the longest stat bar. This is good for a couple of reasons:
1 - Bad Guys often have something in common with the adventure they are attached to - go figure. They offer backhanded insight into the adventure in one quick read.
2 - Like so many other short articles (Wil Save, Editorial, Campaign Componants) a Critical Threat is easy to read through over the course of a work break, while sitting on the john, or before you get told that the establishment you are in is not in fact a library.
3 - I don't read Dungeon cover to cover I hop around to what seems interesting at that momment and what I think I might have time to read. A big ol' Critical Threats Header might catch a wandering eye or two (or three if you happen to be enlightened).
4 - Big Bad guys often have long stat blocks and discriptions anyway. If they happen to run the right amount of text (1,100-1,250 words) then slap Critical Threats on it and call it a day. You now have two easy to find articles (The original adventure and a rogues' gallery member) for the price of one. In a sense the Critical Threat then becomes the equivilent of a Backdrop for the adventure he/she/it is a part of (like Istivin and the whole retro-mini-campaign arch).
5 - It's nice to have the guy/gal/thing you are going to have a big fight with on one page (or two facing ones). It would be easy to find and convieniant for those without a copier.
"What do you think sirs?"
-Gst3k
GGG is really smart. I wanna be his friend.
It's not a bad idea. It runs into the problem of the monster write-up not being located with the adventure text where the monster is met. The having-to-flip-back-and-forth problem. And the tactics write-up is usually specific to where the monster is encountered. And then you have extra editing and layout problems to make it all work on seperate pages rather than being inline.
And I wonder how often this would really work. In #123 we have Krell on page 28. He's only 1 column long. You'd lose a fair amount of content making him 1 full page. Amarantha on #49 has about a full page of text. But her tactics are tied with Ironmaw, who isn't a full page.
I'm not against the idea, it just seems like there are plenty of issues to it.
And I'm wondering how useful it really is. Given the picture that appears next to write-ups now, isn't it easy to flip through the magazine, spot the illo, and then read the description right next to it?
How about this for an idea: How about a critical threat page that told you what monsters where in the issue and where to find them? This page shows the illo and a quick overview: "Amarantha, woodling dryad warlock 10, CR13, page 49. Ironmaw, huge plant (extraplanar) CR13, Page 50". This would be of use to those wanting to read critical threats and to those searching for a particular monster.
GGG is really smart. I wanna be his friend.
All offerings, which should be made in gold, jewely and beautiful elven princesses are to be delivered to the Wyrmsteeth Mountain Range, Norwold.
Failure of compliance on the part of the "local" peasantry will result in DEEP HURTING (I repeat) DEEP HURTING.
;)
G-Cube
Maps of Mystery and Critical Threats and their return would move me off the bubble and much more securely into the monthly buy category. I didn't think my comment was threatening to anyone otherwise pleased with what they are presently seeing in the Dungeon.
I wouldn't consider it "threatening" but your idea would require pages of the magazine be used for content I personally wouldn't find very useful. I find no use in Maps of Mystery. Do I want an adventure shortened by 1 page so that a Map of Mystery could be included? Nope.
I wonder how often this would really work. In #123 we have Krell on page 28. He's only 1 column long. You'd lose a fair amount of content making him 1 full page. Amarantha on #49 has about a full page of text. But her tactics are tied with Ironmaw, who isn't a full page.
I specifically nixed the above for just those reasons. Amarantha and Ironmaw's Adventure are so short that they put me in mind of a Side Trek and are easily readable in a short amount of time relative to the other adventures.
I don't expect every villain to get the Crtical Threats treatment just the ones it happens to work for. Call it "serendipitous editing". I expect that at least one villain* every two or three magazines probably fits the mold and if they don't - don't bother. You can make a mountain out of a mole hill but it would only be filler.
GGG
* When I say "villain" I could just as easily be refering to a potential ally, a small uncomplicated group that often works together (like a distinctive pair of ogre mercenaries with class levels) or a room or location that is dangerous in its own right. Whatever it is it still needs to fit the space requirement.
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Failure of compliance on the part of the "local" peasantry will result in DEEP HURTING (I repeat) DEEP HURTING.
;)
G-Cube
Dude, you're going to show the original and un-MST-ified versions of "Manos! Hands of Fate", "Attack of The The Eye Creatures" and "Monster A-Go-Go" back to back to back?? That's cruel and unusual!
Dude, you're going to show the original and un-MST-ified versions of "Manos! Hands of Fate", "Attack of The The Eye Creatures" and "Monster A-Go-Go" back to back to back?? That's cruel and unusual!
Actually you can buy the Rick Sloan epic that is "Hobgoblins" unaltered as part of a "Rick Sloan Drive-in Double Feature". One of my minions saw it at Media Play.
If that's not DEEP HURTING I don't know what is. Oh and "Wild World of Batwoman" is up there too.
And now to be more thread-centric... Steve Greer has been nice enough to make his offering in the form of information. IN-FORMATION.
GVDammerung, it seems that Paizo is offering the maps from the adventures untagged somewhere abouts on the site. So instant Maps of Mystery without all that paper stuff! Although that still may make the magazine a marginal purchase I think it shows the pluck of that scrappy, go-getter team they have over there at Paizo.
be seeing you,
the new g3
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For good or ill (I believe for good), Dungeon has widened its focus beyond just providing adventures. I don't foresee that changing in the near future.
HUZZAH! I have to compliment Paizo on what it's done with Dungeon (and Dragon) magazines. For those gamers like me who work more than play, and have family responsibilities as well, having pre-packaged adventures has become a godsend .. not to mention a great means by which players can share the DM helm.
When first I re-entered gaming after a 15 year hiatus, I had great ideas of epic adventures. So did my players. We all started and ran our "great" campaigns, rotating the role of DM and the specific campaign each game session.
Guess what. We never finished one campaign. Now, in talking with my fellow gamers, I've hit upon the notion of building a site based campaign. We're looking for a city and will rotate DMing adventures that use that city as its hub of operations. I cannot account for what my fellow gamers will design .. but for me? Hello, Dungeon Magazine!
I for one enjoy every issue that arrives in my mailbox. I am playing in the sandbox right now, so my magazines arrive quite a bit late,...
Man when I was over there I found that the PX actually carried both DUNGEON and DRAGON. They usually got them before my wife could send my my copy from home, and I knew that if the issue got mauled in my gear that I had a mint copy back at home. Still issues arrived over there a month late.
Speaking of which, I still havent seen the latest copy that was sent out 19 Apr. I'd have thought it would have arrived in my mail box by now.
ASEO out
Speaking of which, I still havent seen the latest copy that was sent out 19 Apr. I'd have thought it would have arrived in my mail box by now.
ASEO out
ASEO, I saw on the Customer Service boards that this issue went out later than its mailing date by like a week or something. I have yet to receive it as well and that's supposed to be the reason.
Then that would imply that the statement doesn't apply to you, correct?
I was referring to minors who have no comprehension of the editorial, marketing or business fields.
And, customer feedback is different from griping about editorial decisions that have already been made based on that very same customer feedback; the griping comes from the minority who were cut off.
Justifying why you're being a pompous ass doesn't make it OK. Trust me, I know, I'm a habitual PA myself on other forums.
To me, Dungeon is an idea source, not an adventure source. I was just offering my vote of confidence and support to Erik and crew.
No, you were being rude and flaming people you disagree with.
Customers have a right to complain. If I demanded that every customer of mine have 15 years of experience in cooking and managing an eatery before they could say "You know, I didn't like that meal", I wouldn't get very much repeat business, would I?
It's up to Lisa, Erik and the rest of the Paizo staff to decide whether each complaint is valid, not you, despite whatever you may do for a living.
Justifying why you're being a pompous ass doesn't make it OK. Trust me, I know, I'm a habitual PA myself on other forums.
It's one thing to call someone "pompus" because many of us are arrogant DMs who weave whole worlds out of the bits and pieces of fiction we find in Dungeon (my thread point) and other places, but to imply what you have implied seems quite rude. Perhaps a vacation from your customer service job is in order it did wonders for me.
GGG
THE GREAT GREEN GOD HAS SPOKEN! And his wisdom is again flawless. I agree. (However, I think it was the infidel Marc Chin implying that he is in customer service, O Great One)
Great thread, GVD.
When and where will a Map of Mystery fit? If you look at past issues, you will see instances of single page Maps of Mystery, double pages and even quarter and third page Maps of Mystery. Adventures are not of uniform length, nor does each issue use the space available identically. I trust that if one wanted to run Maps of Mystery it would be entirely possible to do so more often than not and without unduly limiting space needed for adventures. One just needs to be flexible.
With respect to Critical Threats, much the same holds true, I think. Great Green God has also proposed a potential compromise.
Erik has indicated elsewhere that the Maps of Mystery issue is a financial one... that they are significantly more expensive than a typical article.
As for the critical threats, I like GGG's suggestion - not for all critical threats, but as a way to get critical threats in the magazine when the "cut for space" monster would otherwise prevent them.
Which is to say, that I would still like to see stand-alone Critical Threats on occassion. On the other hand, some of my adventures start with the villian, and I can think of one in particular that I almost submitted as a critical threat rather than an adventure query - so I think there are definitely cases when GGG's suggestion would be an acceptable compromise.
Not giving up on the stand-alone Critical Threats though :)
- Ashavan
Why not make more space by using generic NPCs more? If the villain in an adventure is a 15th level wizard, I see no shame in just telling the GM to just use the sample one from the DMG. It's not like the PCs will ever know the difference.
I don't endorse the mindset that every "important" character needs to have unique stats. NPCs are defined by their personalities and their role in the story, not their feats and not by how many funky templates and such they have. Besides, most feedback I've seen here points to readers seeing the rampent "template bloat" in Dungeon adventures as a crutch for poor design more than a benefit to anyone. Can't make a character interesting? Make his stat block big and weird and maybe nobody will notice.
Just save space and use the sample NPCs and untemplated monsters more.
I have to say that I totally agree with Erik - any map in any issue is a potential "map of mystery", and any powerful NPC is a potential "critical threat". People who like these parts have plenty to choose from each issue. On the other hand, if you go back to featuring these things as regular items, the folks who prefer everything "prepackaged" will complain. In the long run, it's easier to pull the parts out of a package than to take a map and an NPC and create an entire adventure. If you CAN do that easily you should be writing for the magazine!
BTW - I've been really pleased with new direction Dungeon and Dragon magazines have taken in the past year. I think both are really useful, and I use a lot of the content from each.
I'm a long-time reader of Dungeon and a one-time contributor. I think Erik & co. are trying to please the crowd and improve the magazine, so they deserve praise for that.
Pleasing everyone is always impossible -- I've seen many past Dungeon polls that were split down the middle (the "more or less specific settings?" question was great for that). Personally, I run a traditional game with many old-timers. These fellows consider 8th level "a high level game" and know mostly Greyhawk, some having started with the White set. When I open the magazine, I immediately look for non-Eberron adventures for 9th level and below. I don't mind the Wil Save and short articles, so long as Dragon and Dungeon don't start blurring together -- bottom line, Dungeon is about pre-made D&D adventures. I've endured the Spelljamer, Stardrive, etc., adventures and odd features before but it always comes back to generic D&D adventures when the smoke clears. ("Endured" is not meant in a bad way, as most of the adventures are creative and can still be adapted or mined for ideas when I actually have the time.) My biggest concern is the level creep of adventures (steadily upward it seems, if compared to older issues, but I guess that's what folks want) and my fear that the extra articles and things will reduce the already-dwindling number of adventures ... I'll take a Side Trek over a cartoon or such any day! That's my 2 cooper pieces
The magazine is full of maps of mystery - just take the maps and ignore the entries for them - or better yet print out the online maps (awesome addition btw)and write the phrase "map of mystery" on the top of it in bold black ink and magico prestico you have your map of mystery... and now it even says map of mystery on it so you can stop using your imagination completely.
As for critical threats - the magazine is full of critical threats - they appear in stat boxes in the encounter description for each area location on the map. (as an aside they are also frequently 1/3 dragon 1/3 demon 1/3 drow/troll assasin/black guards/sorcerors with undead traits - but this is another thread altogether) Near as i can tell the complaints about this have centered around:
1) "I like it when it has the title critical threat on it"
2) "I like it when it has its own page so i can read it while i crap"
and 3)"I like it when it has a back story for the character"
solutions:
1) cut, paste, write "critical threat" in bold black ink put in binder next to your new "maps of mystery" and relax!
2) read the stat box while you crap
3) The back story for the major villain is almost always in the part of the module called "adventure background" and "Adventure syhopsis" - these are usually crapper lenght reading as well for the toilet obsessed...
Hey and don't forget GVD also loved the mini games - those were great weren't they?
Did anyone ever play one of the mini games?
and if you did for how long?
and while you were playing "Rollerderby Mecha Manga" were there any other people playing with you or were you alone in Weezers garage playing with a d12 and talking to Ace Freely?
Mini games - worst...idea...ever... (say it with me slowly)
I think some people misunderstand the point of a Map of Mystery:
For the most part the Maps of Mystery had a very cool map for a locale that is needed in almost any campaign at one time or another. A few off the top of my head that I have used:
Pirate's Cove
Dwarven Mine
Stone Giant Dwelling
Some of them provided immediate adventure ideas just from the map itself, like the Cryomancers icicle-stalagmite inverted tower map. Simply brilliant in my opinion.
Now certainly some of the maps in the generic adventures can be used wholesale but most of them are created with respect to the adventure and aren't created nor meant to capture the essence of an individual map like the Maps of Mystery used to do.
As Erik explained under the Wil Save thread art production costs are the mitigating factor, so lets hope as the subscriber base increases the purse strings loosen.
(And the Greyhawk content remains steady...)
For the record I would rather have four really cool Maps of Mystery and/or Critical Threats a year than several ho-hum ones.