Do you think 3rd Edition (3.0 / 3.5) encourages power gaming more than previous editions of the game?
No.
Yes AND no.
-Delglath "1337 min/maxer"
It encourages it, yes. It's easier to make magic items and there is no HP limit and no limit to how far you could potentially make your to hit bonuses go.
Having said that, Tambryn is very correct about it being a choice. I think in 3.5 DM's have to be more careful about handing out magic or allowing it to be created.
I started running my first 3.5 game (after 25 years of AD&D) late last year and it's been a learning experience for me. I like the system--I think if the original D&D had been this easy to learn the game would have attracted even more players back in the day.
I think PC's shoot up levels too fast initially. My next campaign will tone that down....it only took 6 gaming sessions for my players' characters to reach 4th level. I'm putting a slight brake on XP awards because I don't want them to be higher than 7th level by the end of the year.
I may not force this party to retire their characters after 12th level like I used to do, so I may gain more experience running really high level games, but you can bet it is still not going to be Monty Haul.
Well, magic items are vastly easier to make. Also, it can't be denied that the addition of feats and the proliferation of prestige classes give powergamers a whole lot of new tools to do their thing with. You can only imagine how much harder it would be to seriously min/max a D&D 3.5 character with no feats available, only core classes to choose from and no almost ability to make your own magic before 15th level or so (and even then it's chancy and takes forever).
So I would say overall yes. Having more options is always better for purposes of powergaming and can be said to "encourage" or at least "support" it when compared to a game with less wiggle-room for character tweaking. It's the same reason AD&D powergamering was always there, but didn't get really sick until Unearthed Arcana threw all those new options out there and AD&D 2E powergaming was always there, but didn't didn't get truly sick until the Players Option series. WotC D&D differs from those two games in that there was an abundance of "breakable" options from the very start in the form of feats and prestige classes.
Well, magic items are vastly easier to make. Also, it can't be denied that the addition of feats and the proliferation of prestige classes give powergamers a whole lot of new tools to do their thing with. You can only imagine how much harder it would be to seriously min/max a D&D 3.5 character with no feats available, only core classes to choose from and no almost ability to make your own magic before 15th level or so (and even then it's chancy and takes forever).
I tend to agree;
3.0/3.5 greatly expanded the range of tweaking allowed by players - but they also quantified a lot of concept formerly fuzzy to administration & adjudication.
Magic item creation, for example; it's much easier for players to do, mostly because the specifics weren't laid out for them so clearly before. While the economic danger of a world awash in magic items (which is a topic for a whole new thread...) could imbalance the game, at least there's a system to follow - which the DM can tweak himself, to his desire.
M
it is easier to get more out of your characters because there are more options, you got to remember those options are there for the monsters too, you give some orcs, trolls, or ogers some levels in a pc class with some feats and bam, the game ballances. yes all can do more in 3.5 I think things still have ballance its just at a higher scale than before.
I don't think "encourages" is the word I would choose to describe it. The power gaming aspect is there as a byproduct of a huge amount of options available for players to customize their characters. In 3.0/3.5 it's incredibly easy to create a truly unique character where it was a little more difficult to accomplish this in previous versions. And, yes, the pendulum swings both ways. A lot of the monsters have a lot of options for DMs to tweak them. Obviously, not as much as the players do with their characters, but enough to keep the game balanced.
Powergaming is a relatively new term since 3rd edition, but if it had been around 10 years ago, it could have easily been used to describe 2nd edition when the Player's Option books came out.
"Powergaming is a relatively new term since 3rd edition, but if it had been around 10 years ago, it could have easily been used to describe 2nd edition when the Player's Option books came out."
Exactly. Most options are equally-useful, but as long as some are at least a little, tiny bit more useful than others, there's the potential for powergaming. The more options you have, the more likely it is that at least some of them will inadvertantly be designed with that little extra bit of "effeciency" that allows a powergamer to get more for less.
Of course, a game that supports powergaming well isn't neccessarily an unbalanced one, but a lot of that comes down to whether the GM for a given game is as good at "working the system" for his NPCs as the powergaming player is for his PC.
Of course, a game that supports powergaming well isn't neccessarily an unbalanced one, but a lot of that comes down to whether the GM for a given game is as good at "working the system" for his NPCs as the powergaming player is for his PC.
The opposite holds true, too. DMs that are better at it than their players need to be careful not to over challenge the PCs. This is a problem I regularly have with my one group, actually.
Of course, a game that supports powergaming well isn't neccessarily an unbalanced one, but a lot of that comes down to whether the GM for a given game is as good at "working the system" for his NPCs as the powergaming player is for his PC.
Agreed.
The opposite holds true, too. DMs that are better at it than their players need to be careful not to over challenge the PCs. This is a problem I regularly have with my one group, actually.
Amen, to that! The temptation to crush uneducated players is a strong one. Pointing out various options available to my players and explaining how certain ill advised tactics and decisions can lead to a corn-kicking is a way of curbing it. Of course, a good corn-kicking once in a while can go a long way towards educating the uneducated :)
I've definately seen more Powergaming in my group SINCE the conversion to 3.0/3.5; on behalf of the players AND DMs. We used to be a very gritty group, concentrating on problem solving and role playing. The options available in 3.5 have us WANTING to play 15th level characters (we rarely got above 7th before). Now abilities score generally have increased so that multiple 18+ are common, and everyone wants a +5 weapon that has three different powers, whereas before we were estatic to get a +1 weapon!
I attribute it to the Pendulum effect. We started out as Monty Haul gamers in high school, swung to low magic grit gamers with 2nd Ed, and swung back to powergamers with 3.5. I intend to put the brakes on during my next campaign, which will take place in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time world. Back to "oh my goodness, is that REALLY an enchanted dagger! Can I touch it!"
I've had a real love/hate relationship with 3.5. I like the flexibility, but find it difficult to reign in excited players who have found a new Prestige class they want to play or magic item to use.
It may be brutal, but when I had a player that just wouldn't stop min/maxing to the point of ad nauseum, I took an arm. Harsh I know, but it DID work! He got the point. He had to play the same character with one arm for three sessions before they discovered the wonder drug to regenerate it!
Another concept I borrowed was from the old Slaver's Series. One of the adventures put the PCs in the dark, with absolutely NOTHING. Spellcasters had no spells memorized, no spellbooks, no sleep to pray for spells. No armor, no weapons, no tools...nothing but a loin cloth, sand and a few odds and ends of bones they stumbled across. Great equalizer. The pressure was kept up with denizens of the dark attacking. Remember, elvish sight doesn't work without some light source, and darkvision only sees heat.
Lastly, level sucking undead. Strip some levels from them and they'll cry for mercy!
Darkvision sees in black and white, not heat.
Trapmaster...A lot of it has to do with how you DM. One thing I've noticed a lot of DMs do when they think the party is getting too powerful is try to go over their heads with harder encounters, or take advantage of something the party is lacking. Not bad ideas, but the party is likely to respond badly, attepmting to powergame even more to respond to the bigger threat. One thing I'd suggest before upping the stakes is talk to your players, if you don't like how things are going, tell them, tell them why, and tell them what you think needs to be done about it. The DM is there to have fun too. Another idea is to change the type of encounters, add a little more roleplaying to your adventures, let them know by example that the campaign isnt just about how much damage a character can dish out per round while staying unscaved himself.
(This is the part where I appologize if my spelling is unusually bad or if my post makes little to no sense. Haven't slept in a while, so things are getting a little weird)
Good point, I've DMed for groups like that as well. What's the party make up? Next campaign I would suggest no evil characters and strictly inforce this. Start things off at first level, make sure the cleric starts loosing spell access if he strays from the path, have the wizards mentor/guild threaten to stop teaching him new spells if he embarasses them, stat up a fighter a few levels higher than the party as a captian of the guard to keep rogues and fighters in line. If you start things low, where it's easy to make the NPCs realisticly much more powerful than the PCs, and keep an eye on the parties advancement (both experience and items/money) you can effectively "train" them the way you want them.
After a while, if it turns out your group of players isn't having any fun at all, and only cares about how many bodies they can drop, check out warhammer/warhammer 40k and keep an eye out for more players with your same playing style.
In my gamming group. We have never had a Power gamming problem the DM could'nt solve. But then Again the Most we ever had for a game was three or four PC's.
Our DM has always delt well with power gammers. If someone comes up with a mean combination of classes and feats. It seem like the DM always says " allright then I'll turn it up a notch too. (Que Sinister Laugh)
I love the 3.0/3.5 Editions. The posibilities are endless. And I think that is what drives DnD. Your imagination.
It's hard to have roleplaying encounters when they kill everything.
Try setting up adventures that have insanely easy combat in the beginning (not very satisfying for a power gamer) if they do not roleplay, but they find little to no treasure if they don't roleplay to get to the right location.
Then, and here is the trick, tell them afterwards about all the 'kewl' stuff they missed by not getting the location of the hideout from the bandits they slaughtered.
The next time it might be that they killed all the townsfolk before they could tell them the problem was on an island off the shore. And then once again tell them of all the kewl stuff they missed by not roleplaying more.
But with all that said I have a few other comments about powergaming. It has existed since first edition. The powergamers I knew back then are the powergamers I know now (with the exception of new gamers who likely would have been powergamers back then given the opportunity).
Now there IS a kind of continuum I see people go through of starting all monty haul then moving on to power gaming then often on to deep roleplaying or just a more balanced approach. But everyone is different in the time it takes to go through this. And like raising teenagers, the more you fight them on the more they will stay that way.
Additionally, powergaming isn't bad as long as everyone is having fun. (I know probably didn't need to be said). If you the DM are not having fun with the way the group plays, let them know. Switch out and try it from a players chair for a while.
And finally, powergaming is all about balance. What you might consider a powergamers character in one campaign might be pathetic in another. It is all about BALANCE. And it is the DMs job to bring balance. You will have infinately more choices and opportunities to try things out on the players than the players have to use against you. Start using the same techniques (or making new ones) for the monsters and foes they fight.
I have a player who likes to min/max. That's one of the things he really enjoys about the game, learning the system and using it to his advantage. I feel it would be wrong to punish him for that... he is just playing the game the way he finds fun. So instead of trying to stop him I have asked him to help the other players min/max. I also help them min/max. I run them through the occasional strategy session so they can learn to use their new ability. Basically my job is to keep the players in balance with one another (if that balance is lost the game becomes less fun) and then provide them with sufficient challenges. The actual level of power doesn't matter... only the balance of power.
Sean Mahoney
Port Orchard, WA
None of them are evil, they are all chaotic neutral. They always say that "they aren't evil, they just don't like people." So my NPCs always end up dead eventually.
Make them take good characters...Chaotic Neutral is just about the most problematic alignment a DM can face. Its like having an open license to do whatever you want when ever you want.
Of course making them take good characters can be like pulling teeth...my PCs are b%@@$ing and moaning about that rule right now and trying to get me to amend it.
I probably won't though as I have a themed campaign ready to go and I can't see it working well if the players motivation to go on any adventure is always 'Whats in it for me?'.
Certianly I don't want to railroad my players into dealing with the theme of the campaign in some specific way I mandated ahead of time - on the other hand the last thing I want from my players is for them to respond to swarms of distraught refugees fleeing the great evil by deciding to set up some scam to rip the refugee's off of every last copper they have left either.
Chaotic Neutral is just about the most problematic alignment a DM can face. Its like having an open license to do whatever you want when ever you want.
Agreed. When I was back in high school playing 2nd edition, we has a couple of guys that used this . . . they were also the types that loved wild mages and the liberal pillaging of helpless commoners.
After a while, we just stopped inviting them back to play with us, and the rest of us learned and grew from those experiences. Even back then, I understood what I wanted out of D&D, and having another human being out to thwart your experience at every turn (out of sheer maliciousness) is really negative and unfun.
Trapmaster, forgive me for a rude question: How old is your group? You guys sound really young. If that's the case, maybe you can find some older people to play with.
In those days, we also used to do gladitorial battle royales once every couple months, where we'd make characters and fight each other to the death... this got out alot of that silliness, and helped us get down to role-playing. Maybe your group would like to try that, too?
They are as old as I am (25) and they don't need a "battle Royale." They fight with each other everytime they find anything better that a copper piece. They even mug the shop keeper...
Lol.
And they trashed an outhouse that refused out of their way as well, eh. Plus apparently kill anything that so much as moves.
As a DM I can see why you would want to change their behavour. On the other habd you could look on this as a financial opportunity - whenever they do one of these crazy things that have you pulling your hair out write it down. When you have enough material contact the guys that do Knights of the Dinner table and see if they will pay you for some of this stuff.