For those of you interested in having more epic level adventures in Dungeon Magazine, show your support for issue #123 which contains "Quicksilver Hourglass". Let's help make this issue one of their best sellers. And in-addition purchase back orders of issues of 92 and 93. Both issues have 20th level and beyond adventures. They contain The Razing of Redshore & The Storm Lord's Keep(classic hardcore epic-giant battle). These adventures are for 3rd edition, but can be easily adapted for 3.5. I just back orderd issue 92 myself and was glad I did.
If no buzz is generated over epic level adventures, there will be no incentive to make them. Thanks.
Thanks for the research on the back issues! This will help out a lot. Several of my campaigns have reached epic level over the years, but unfortunately I end these campaings short b/c there is no epic level adventures out there to take them through. I'm sure there would be lot's of interest if these were made! I can't wait for the "Quicksilver Hourglass"!
Creative Director
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We plan on including a more extensive than normal "Scaling the Adventure" sidebar for "Quicksilver Hourglass" as well, providing advice on how to adapt it for lower-level epic play (or even for 20th level play). So even if your PCs aren't quite 30th level yet, "Quicksilver Hourglass" should give you something for them to chew on.
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As a subscriber, my "purchase" won't count in terms of determining whether issue 123 does better than others.
Personally, I don't want to see epic level adventures in dungeon. None at all. Never. Ever.
Now, I understand that there is a minority that might like them, but I think they're a minority. I would hate to see them become common. Considering how complex epic level stat blocks are, the actual space for a story quickly disappears.
My personal finding is that at epic levels (or close) adventures cannot be entirely self-contained. At this point adventurers have virtually no limitations in movement or time. They can cross and re-cross the world in an afternoon. This allows characters to "multi-task" if they like.
Anyway, let's see how it goes. Still, there may be those of us buying it with 0 interest in epic-level play.
I would certainly like to see more epic support in Dungeon, although I agree with DeadDM on the problems with high-level adventures.
D&D lacks good high-level vanilla monsters (like epic orcs or something) in the core books to fatten adventures without chewing up all the available pages. The last couple of cauldron adventures was, well, boring to read. To much space devoted to stats (not that I blame the desingers), and not nearly enough space on true development and plot.
Still, 20 levels are rarely enough for me to complete a campaign, so I hope Dungeon will provide more epic support, warts and all. May I suggest shorter, more complex stories, with fewer combat encounters?
Hmmm.... good luck on that one;)
DMwalking has a very good point. . . it is hard to leave room for a good story if each stat block is a 1,000 words long. Plus, with all the abilities the character has, it makes it very difficult to present them with a substantial threat. They always have the ability to teleport away, cross topographical barriers, or just blow away armies if they need to.
On the other hand, I think Epic play lends beautifully to a political campaign. Their abilities give them prestige (no pun intended) as well as power, and a dungeon crawl in the Abyss is a waste of that. A 5th level merchant could still beat them down economically, and a 2nd level wizard could still aspire to the throne legally, but unscrupulously. War, disease, politics, economics, natural disasters, and all of that stuff would be great.
My idea for the magazine would be (for Epic adventures only) to eliminate stat blocks all together, and simply have the writers create interesting characters and conflicts, with suggestions on levels and advancement. Imagine how cool and complicated an epic-level adventure could get plot-wise, without stat blocks. After all, Epic level games almost require a calculator anyway. If a DM wants to put himself through that kind of punishement, he might was well do his own stat blocks.
Another idea would be to present a monthly, one-page critical threat with a Epic level NPC baddie. These would be whole articles in themselves, I think, once you discuss the varieties of strategy a single encounter can present...
Anyway, looking forward to reading the Quicksilver Hourglass.
I'd like to add my voice to the call for more Epic Level Adventures. Adventures at this level are the most difficult and time consuming to write IMO. Dungeon could perform a very useful service for the DM who lacks spare time by producing a few every year.
I just subscribed mainly for epic content. There is no reason at all why this magazine can't make modules that support all levels of play, and all campaign worlds.
The campaign world's complaints are ridiculous, it takes almost no time to convert from one D+D world to the next. So maybe someday we will have a FR adventure not based on portals....
Dungeons writers guidelines say that they publish 1 epic level adventure per year (on average). I would not realy expect to see that ratio change all that much anytime in the near future.
I agree with YuckyDave. It is very easy to convert modules from one campaign setting to another. So with that being said it would be easy to convert a 17th-18th level module into a 21st-23rd level epic. Maybe the Dungeon Magazine staff can add a level adjustment sidebar for epic modules too?
As far as epic level adventures lacking in story material. I thought The Storm Lord's Keep was written very well and was a challenging adventure for epic level characters. It also was only about 30 pages in length.
I would love to see some epic adventures. 1 a year isn't enough. I'd like to see 2 adventures a year over 22nd/23rd level and more of the high levels being closer to 18-20, as opposed to 13-17.
I'd love to see a short, maybe 4 magazines, epic adventure path. Go from 20th to 25th or 25th to 30th or even 20th to 30th.
To save space for the adventure just list the Character name, Classes/Prestige Class levels, and few notes and let us create the stat block. Or make the stat blocks downloadable.
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Creative Director
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We'll be providing full stat blocks in epic level adventrues, the same way we do for standard adventures. The size of these adventures isn't the issue, it's the fact that the vast majority of D&D games being run are for lower level play. As a result, we have no plans to do more than one epic level adventure per year. If "Quicksilver Horuglass" proves to be popular, or if the general interest for epic level support grows, this'll change and we'll print more. Of course, that also means we need a lot more proposals from writers for epic-level adventrues. As it is, we get only a tiny handful of them; we get far more proposals for Oriental Adventures or psionics adventures than we do for epic level adventures.
I am a big fan of epic level play. I am looking forward to reading "Quicksilver Hourglass" and I think a few epic level adventures a year wouldn't hurt Dungeon Magazine at all. I really liked "The Storm Lord's Keep" and some of my favorite adventures have been of the high level. I have not had a character ever get higher then level 20 so some side bars for lowering a 30th level adventure would be appreciated.
There just have not been enough published high level adventures and by high level I mean over 15th level at least. The H series from 1E was a very high level set of adventures that I actually enjoyed playing in.
As it is, we get only a tiny handful of them; we get far more proposals for Oriental Adventures or psionics adventures than we do for epic level adventures.
perhaps that is because your writers guidelines say that you only do one a year, and prefer to do that one by requesting an established author to do it....
Yeah one thing that I could see being really tough though is magic items. Some epic games are going to have players coated in uber permanent magical effects, and some aren't so there is probably a bigger divergence in power between two 30th levelers between two campaigns than between two 5th level characters.
Yeah one thing that I could see being really tough though is magic items. Some epic games are going to have players coated in uber permanent magical effects, and some aren't so there is probably a bigger divergence in power between two 30th levelers between two campaigns than between two 5th level characters.
That's a good point. I think another problem might be the spells and abilities the party will have acess to. I can see it adding to the game immensly in terms for what PC can do, but it might also limit the kinds of challenges you can give them.
For instance, I wonder if every room, lair, and epic challenge will naturally evolve to include a standard suite of magical protections: protected from scrying/divinations, teleport doesn't work, dimensional anchor in effect, et cetera et cetera. . . just to avoid all the plot shortcuts and loopholes an epic PC can exploit.
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Creative Director
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For instance, I wonder if every room, lair, and epic challenge will naturally evolve to include a standard suite of magical protections: protected from scrying/divinations, teleport doesn't work, dimensional anchor in effect, et cetera et cetera. . . just to avoid all the plot shortcuts and loopholes an epic PC can exploit.
Personally, I hate this type of cop-out. I prefer adventures that require these type of abilities rather than arbitrarilly take them away from the PCs. Sometimes, an adventure's plot demands that some spells and abilities won't work, but for the most part, if your epic level adventure is broken by the existance of the Divination school of magic, you should consider re-writing the adventure as a low-level adventure.
just to play Devil's Advocate, James...
Why is it a cop-out for really high level NPCs to have protections that block "scry and die" tactics? Especially when they know there's going to be people out there who won't like them and will want them dead?
just to play Devil's Advocate, James...
Why is it a cop-out for really high level NPCs to have protections that block "scry and die" tactics? Especially when they know there's going to be people out there who won't like them and will want them dead?
I would agree with these protections to a point. A 30th level Wizard would definately protect himself from the PCs as well as dozens of other wanna-be mages who would challenge his power.
But...in an adventure where the PCs sneak into the lair of a Sleeping Devistation Beetle to break up a cult of insane insectile mountain giant beserkers? Methinks that that particular adventure would be light on with the magical protections.
Maybe it all comes down to "a little bit of column A and a little bit of Column B". If all bad guys had the same protections, perhaps you are running too much of the same type of game?
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Creative Director
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just to play Devil's Advocate, James...
Why is it a cop-out for really high level NPCs to have protections that block "scry and die" tactics? Especially when they know there's going to be people out there who won't like them and will want them dead?
That's not a cop-out, any more than it's a cop-out to have a party of rogues always fighting undead and constructs, or a party of clerics never encountering any undead. It's perfectly reasonable for some NPCs to be protected from scry and die tactics.
What isn't reasonable is that every high-level or epic level adventure has dungeons that block teleportation, defeat scrying, or otherwise render some of the cooler abilities of high-level characters moot. What's the point of playing a high level adventure if you never get to use your high level abilities to hose the bad guys?
As far as my earlier point goes, I want to clarify that I don't like those kinds of games either, and it's why I wrote it down as a possible negative wrinkle. I still just think that it's going to occur as the submissions come in - if this is due to the DM's inability to be creative (while keeping the vast abilities of the PCs in mind), then at least you know the reason.
That's why I'm so interested in reading the Quicksilver Hourglass. When it comes to writing an Epic Level adventures, I'm pretty stuck on coming up with good ideas for NPCs. I've never played in a high level campaign, and it's just really hard to get into the minds of these 30+ level "demigods."
On a side note, I have a question for the DMs who've posted here. When you run Epic level campaigns, have your PCs started at level one and worked their way up, or did you have the players roll up 21+ level characters to begin? Just curious...
On a side note, I have a question for the DMs who've posted here. When you run Epic level campaigns, have your PCs started at level one and worked their way up, or did you have the players roll up 21+ level characters to begin? Just curious...
I would recommend that you start them out at much lower levels (3rd is what I prefer but, I could see as high as 14th) and then begin working your way up. Not only does this give their character a more well-rounded, lived-in kinda feel but it also prevents a goodly amount of min-maxing. When the monster tank in your party gets dominated every time they run into a spellcaster they have to start looking at Iron Will as a reasonable alternative to picking Great Cleave. I find a lot of players have no idea what to do with all the power of creating a 21st level character and worse they may not be balanced enough to last against the things you are going to be hitting them with. Sure they maybe able to teleport any where in the cosmos but if that's all they can do - they are going to get bored.
Then there is the problem of group dynamics.
As important as group tactics it is for a band of first level characters when they run into their first ogre. Group tactics becomes even more important when your 21+level characters go up against a prismatic dragon. The sheer quantity of things a wizard can do at that level can be pretty staggering and if the groups fighters get in the way it could be fatal. If the characters haven't had a few adventures under their belt together they are going to get trashed. Also, Keeping six or seven pages of character info straight is tough if you haven't built up to it over the length of a campaign.
Now that said there is nothing wrong with doing epic fresh out of the box (Texas style - smothered in gravy!) but you might want to look over the characters well before they come into play and point out any problems they might run into when Save DCs and skill checks start arching into the 50's. Maybe host a character building party so that everyone gets a chance to see what other people are doing and what everyone's group role is going to be.
GGG
On a side note, I have a question for the DMs who've posted here. When you run Epic level campaigns, have your PCs started at level one and worked their way up, or did you have the players roll up 21+ level characters to begin? Just curious...
Hmmm....why am I having so much trouble with these boards lately?
Actually I've recently completed a campaign that ran for about 2 years (4 years game time) that took PCs from 1st to 25th level. It instilled a level of pride in their PCs that you can't get from creating a 25th lvl PC.
In fact a PC created at 25th level looked completely different from a fully-developed one from 1st. Even fighting nasty critters is different. A new-PC will jump into combat heedless of danger because of their high level. Old PCs will have had cut their teeth at low level and have a healthy respect for their enemies.
James I am new to the posts.I like Epic Levels because i know they are truly of epic world shaping proportions(30th Level!!).The powers the players have most of the time are very small against the challenge of the adventure.I thank you for giving us that treat(an epic adventure per year)and i am waiting more.Can you tell us a little bit about "Quicksilver Hourglass"?How many pages woud be?What kind of encounter has?Give us an example!
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Creative Director
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Welcome to the boards!
"Quicksilver Hourglass" is gonna be, I predict, about 30 pages. It's HUGE!
I don't want to give away any spoilers as to the exact nature of the encounters, but suffice to say, they're all pretty rough. I'm just now finishing a stat block for a monster that has an Armor Class of 63 or thereabouts... but a touch AC of only 9. An encounter made for the touchy feely spellcasters and warlocks, for sure!
Hmmm...Thanks James!I smell a Phane(with character levels?)...or a Phaethon perhaps?It will be an epic!!!
Wow! Just one more issue to go.
I for one am pleased to see one good epic adventure a year in Dungeon. But in any case, Dungeon has done well by me in the selection of low, mid and high level adventures. A good adventure such as the Demon Tree lend themselves well to 'epic' styles of play and with a bit of working almost any good adventure can be made into an epic encounter. For good moogs I would suggest classing such creatures as Sarkrith(from the Fiend Folio) and Death Giants(from MM3) for starters but as an epic DM you have to scrounge sometimes for what you need.
As long as they acknowledge that there is demand for solid epic adventures in Dungeon I'll be happy to keep picking it up and converting
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Just finished reading "Hourglass" and I have to say it was a bloody fantastic adventure. Having waded through 1.5 yrs (of good and bad play) in a 3.0 Epic campaign, it was neat to see a mix of "denial and approval" in this adventure.
That is, to say, I enjoyed how all forms of magical transportation were nullified due to the Hourglass's location (though a pair of devils seemed to still use teleportation in their tactics.. a small oversight), but the players (and others) were more than welcome to use Wish to get around. A great, basic use of this high level spell (and a thousand thank-yous for adding usable exp amounts for the NPCs).
Similarly, you had a good balance with the dangerous challenges (but none too high above the party level) while also emphasizing the time limit (in my exp. with a recently ended 19th level game, any timelimit-less plot will be quickly taken down as the adventurers can freely teleport to a safe rest or utilize Mordekainen's Mansions).
So, once again, thank you for this magnificent adevnture- if I ever run epic games, I will be sure to use this one as a guide and inspiration... the path of high-lvl spell denial (ala Mind Blank and Dimension Lock every 60') is tempting to a nervous DM, but this has given me courage to try other means.
One last thing (sorry), I wonder if a high-lvl cleric was used to playtest the adventure (and if this done through Core rules plus Epic solely)? Given the..."nature" of three of this adventure's iconic villains (the Eclipses) did turning attempts tend to decimate them? I have seen the vicious nature of a Radiant Servant of Pelor (Comp. Divine) w/ Libris Mortis and Book of Exalted Deeds equipment, and I could see each of those folk dropping in a round to a std. roll in the char's 25th lvl incarnation... let alone a 30th level.
Loved it and the issue as a whole.
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Creative Director
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A high-level cleric would definately be helpful against the Union of Eclipses. I wouldn't punish a character's high-level cleric by nerfing his turn undead ability or by giving the Union each lots of turn resistance, though. It's good to let high-level characters feel high level, and if that means that some tough-looking combats suddenly become pushover combats... that's fine. As long as they aren't all pushover combats. A high-level cleric is gonna need some help in the Nexus Tetrahedron, for example...
It may take a few weeks for the issue to get here, but I'm looking forward to seeing how "Quicksilver Hourglass" turns out.
I own the Epic-Level Handbook and would like to see supoort for it, just as I would the Expanded Psionics Handbook. (I have an adventure series idea in my notebook for Psionics, just not for Epic yet. Perhaps, "Quicksilver" will help in that...)
For me, support of the "expanded core" is also support of regular D&D. I would like all of it supported by Dungeon.
-Alex...
Picked up Dungeon #123 at the FLGS today and having looked through it briefly I like what I have seen. Thinking about putting Drezlna from Lost Caverns of Tsjocanth as a part of the Union of Eclipses as she is a recurring vampiric foil IMC, but its good stuff and well worth my money!
Wow! The Quicksilver Hourglass is such a great adventure. I just had a chance to finish reading it and I was not disappointed. It is going to poise quite a challenge to even the most experienced adventurers. The story was sound and the villains were well thought out.
My only objection to the adventure is that for such an epic level challenge, why was there not an epic amount of treasure for finishing it? I expected to see a couple Epic Level items that good player characters could use for future adventures. The only items of Epic quality were made for evil characters. I can easily fix this in my own campaign, but it surprised me. In fact, the high level Lich Queen module contains much better treasure than this one. I'm curious did the staff of Dungeon revise this module and take away some potent magic items?
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Creative Director
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QUICKSILVER HOURGLASS SPOILER WARNING!
The majority of the treasure to be gained in this adventure is in the form of NPC gear—the only thing I can remember off the top of my head removing was a ring of chaotic fury from Baucojin, although he's still got quite a lot of nice gear to loot. Heck, the three rings he DOES have are worth a total of 400,000 gp in and of themselves, and that doesn't even touch his other gear.
That said... I'm honestly unsure if the amount of treasure in the adventure is too high or two low. Morwel's reward for the PCs is nearly priceless, though (permanent +2 bonus to a stat is nothing to sneeze at), and a character with a really good Use Magic Device can use those Bindings of Erivatius even if he's Lawful Good.
James,
You are completely right about the GP total of the treasure listed. It does make for some good loot in that area. I was really referring to Epic Level magic items, like the ones described in the Epic Level book. However, I was not aware that Use Magic Device skill can be used by a lawfully good character on the Bindings of Erivatius to claim it as a permananent item. Good idea. It too should make for great treasure.
Regardless of my earlier comment. I wanted to let you know that this module was great! We will really enjoy this one.
MORE QUICKSILVER HOURGLASS SPOILERS!
Ron,
Very glad to hear that you enjoyed Quicksilver Hourglass, as you were its earliest supporter! To answer your question about epic-level magic items: in addition to James' note about Baucojin's ring of chaotic fury, I also originally equipped Shoolian with Boots of Swiftness and Ivirere with a Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance. Why not more epic magic items? Well, the list in the ELH is short and armor/weapons with a +6 enhancement/+11 total bonus are just beyond hoard size for EL's in the 30 range. If you'd like to add in a bit more magic for the characters to haul off, feel free to give additional powers to the many artifacts found within the pentatope. For example, the Mechanus scroll could grant tongues at will and freedom and imprisonment each once per day, but only for a lawful user. I don't want to think of what a character might do should they somehow gain control of the Sphere of Ruined Bodies... I wouldn't overdo it though; Morwel's permanent +2 sacred bonus to an ability of the character's choice should certainly counter any perceived shortfall in magic items.
Dethand -- Certainly agree that Drelzna from the old caverns of Tsojcanth could fit here. One of my all-time favorites. Iggwilv could easily replace Baucojin as the leader of the Union -- I can imagine her having similar motives -- but she probably wouldn't take the risk of personally entering the timevoid.
Magagumo -- Thanks for the positive feedback. I agree completely with James' comments regarding clerics and turning. Play-testing did include a straight cleric, but she did not have the Sun domain or anything else granting greater turning. Should such a character be involved, I wouldn't penalize them for having this ability: they're focused on wasting undead, let them waste undead. There are plenty of other threats in the Hourglass.
Anson,
Thanks for your response. I almost missed seeing it. I am definitely going to add the Boots of Swiftness to Shooliana and a Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance to Ivirere. I had no idea that the hoard size limits for 30 CR encounters were not high enough to include Epic Plus weapons. In the Lich Queen module, the Queen's sword and other items were Epic in proportions and it was a lower level adventure. Regardless of this I can always add treasure like you said. You have already done the hard part in putting together the adventure.
The Quicksilver Hourglass more than lived up to my already high expectations. You offered the readers a very compelling and unique adventure that they won't forget. Have you written other epic level adventures that have yet to be published? If so, I would be interested in buying them from you.
Best of luck. I hope to see more of your adventures in Dungeon Magazine or from Wizards of the Coast soon.
Ron
Ron,
Thanks again for the positive feedback. While I have a few proposals in the Dungeon slushpile right now, none of them are of epic level. I might try my hand at epic levels again some day, but for now I'm focusing on things which don't involve 500-word stat blocks!
From one writer to another Anson, your adventure in #123 was one of the best epic-level adventures I have ever seen. I myself have only ever sent one epic-level proposal to James and that was rejected. Coming up with epic-level adventures is probably the most difficult thing to do. Of course, now that you have succeeded it gives me hope that I too can one day join you on the epic-level trail.
On a side note to James. I'm sure there has been more than 2 years between that original storm giant adventure introducing the "Epic level Handbook" and "The Quicksilver Hourglass". By my reckoning, that means you owe us at least 3 epic-level adventures next year!
Im an DM and im running an Epic adventure, my players have gone tru lvl 1 to lvl 22 nowdays, i love the Epic content, it just makes your character look so cool and do many things. Of course this makes the DMing a lot harder, i have to take into consideration everyones pros and try to make them face a real challenge. I would really like to see more Epic content in the Dragon Magazine, an Epic monster every month or so, or new Epic Feat or Magic. What i would really like to see is Lady of Pain stats or some really uber strong character, godlike. I remember how i use to get all exited about Dragon kings of Dark Sun and how strong they were. Last of all, a few time ago i had a Dragon Magazine with the Sphynx and many other overstrong monsters, can anyone tell me what number it was so i can order it again.
PS: Epic Characters should be raised from lvl 1 to 21+, so the players like them and get their role.
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Creative Director
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I enjoy epic level adventures; in fact, of all the "capstone" systems for D&D (epic, psionic, incarnum, etc.) I think I'd have to say that Epic's my favorite.
That said... the estimate that we'd print one epic adventure a year hinges upon one critical factor: We have to have someone WRITE an epic adventure. I can count the epic-level adventure proposals I've seen submitted to Dungeon on one hand, and keep in mind we get about 100 submissions a month and I've been doing this job for nearly three years now...
Epic level adventures are hard to write. Not only are the stat blocks murder, but they requrie you to think and plot in ways that simply won't work for lower level adventures. I'm not surprised we don't see more epic level submissions, and I'm certainly not going to print any old epic adventure that comes along (it has to be GOOD in addition to being TOUGH).