Before the gunslinger, it didn't matter whoever got the killing blow on a monster. Everyone was expected to work together and contribute, and getting the final blow on a monster or villain was more a matter of ego and bragging rights. However, the gunslinger has a mechanical incentive to deliver the killing blow - they get grit back. If the gunslinger is plotting away at a monster, and the fighter finishes it off with a sword swipe, the gunslinger is denied his grit, which could give rise to arguments. It also doesn't make a lot of sense for all of the characters to step back and allow the gunslinger to take the final blow on a creature - it just draws attention to grit as a metagame abstract.
I know that delivering the killing blow with a gun is supposed to be a random chance thing like scoring a critical - but if you put grit recovery in the hands of a player and give them incentive to whine if their "kills are being stolen", something that would otherwise be a non-issue, you pave the way for a lot of pettiness and table arguments.
Recharge mechanics as written promote metagaming and harsh feelings toward fellow players.
What I don't get is why there needs to be a recharge mechanic AT ALL. Simply raise the cap and throw out the recharge mechanic entirely. Let him get 1/2 gunslinger level + Wis mod at the start of each day and be done with it!
Why all this extra complication and hassle?
This thread is meant to be a discussion forum on whether you think there should be a recharge mechanic AT ALL.
I think the recharge mechanic is an interesting idea, but i agree that using kills for it is a bad idea. I would leave on the crit recharge though, thats rare enough that you cant rely on it.
My concern here though is that so many gunslinger deeds dont actualy take grit, they just require you to have some available. How much grit is a gunslinger likely to use in a day?
I think the recharge mechanic is an interesting idea, but i agree that using kills for it is a bad idea. I would leave on the crit recharge though, thats rare enough that you cant rely on it.
My concern here though is that so many gunslinger deeds dont actualy take grit, they just require you to have some available. How much grit is a gunslinger likely to use in a day?
All of it. And that's just for the Quick Clear ability.
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What I don't get is why there needs to be a recharge mechanic AT ALL. Simply raise the cap and throw out the recharge mechanic entirely. Let him get 1/2 gunslinger level + Wis mod at the start of each day and be done with it!
Why all this extra complication and hassle?
I agree, I haven't liked it from the beginning. The Grit ability needs some difference from other classes, but I think the deeds available and the choice between deeds that spend grit and deeds that require grit remaining provide enough uniqueness.
If a gunslinger can recharge his daily abilities by killing things, why can't a ninja, a hungry ghost monk, a cleric with negative energy channelling or the Death or Destruction domain, or a ranger attacking his favoured enemy?
i love the mechanic, i wish there were more things in pathfinder that let you recharge. i love the fact that you can get a reward for actually playing a character that takes risks. keep it in and don't change it at all that's my opinion.
i love the mechanic, i wish there were more things in pathfinder that let you recharge. i love the fact that you can get a reward for actually playing a character that takes risks. keep it in and don't change it at all that's my opinion.
Yeah...but think: levels 1-3 risk gets you killed. quickly.
that's the payoff for those levels, that's why its a risk and that's why you are rewarded with a recharge of grit
i love the mechanic, i wish there were more things in pathfinder that let you recharge. i love the fact that you can get a reward for actually playing a character that takes risks. keep it in and don't change it at all that's my opinion.Yeah...but think: levels 1-3 risk gets you killed. quickly.
Even at higher levels they can quickly contribute to your death. If you hadn't stupidly round through that crowd of enemies and taken that 20 damage last round, then the giant's crit wouldn't have killed you outright.
Rewarding dramatic heroism is fine, but rewarding idiotic risk taking is, well, idiotic.
well i guess its all a point of view, i see this as a way to reward a player from just taking the safest route, honestly i get tired of everyone doing the same thing because its the safest option, sometimes doing something because no one would expect you to do it makes for a more enjoyable time
I think it adds an interesting quirk to your average resource management. Most gunslingers are going to want to stay at one grit or above and you have a relatively small pool however since you can regain grit when you perform certain actions it allows for a larger number of uses over an adventuring day without the gunslinger using their grit all the time or all at once.
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What I don't get is why there needs to be a recharge mechanic AT ALL. Simply raise the cap and throw out the recharge mechanic entirely. Let him get 1/2 gunslinger level + Wis mod at the start of each day and be done with it!
Ravingdork for mayor! instead of 1/2 level I would go full level + Wis even... or have a bathouse or cup of joe grit recharge as per my old pickle thread... :)
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that's the payoff for those levels, that's why its a risk and that's why you are rewarded with a recharge of grit
thing is... high WIS characters don't usually go around taking *stupid* risks, and are more likely to hide in a trench and wait for the morons to try to run across a field only to pick them off one by one...
The gunslinger is a high WIS guy. He will stand in that belltower for days waiting... waiting... waiting... then BAM! He doesn't go around swashbuckling around like an idiot, which is where the grit recharge mechanics is trying to make him do... sigh
What I don't get is why there needs to be a recharge mechanic AT ALL. Simply raise the cap and throw out the recharge mechanic entirely. Let him get 1/2 gunslinger level + Wis ( minimum of 1) mod at the start of each day and be done with it!
+1 agree, like that idea better.
i would prefer to look at as it only appears to be a stupid risk to the low wis characters
I'm in agreement, here. Change it to 1/2 level + Wis (or Cha) and drop the recharge altogether. Use the system that's already in place an WORKS instead of introducing a clunky, convoluted, metagame-inducing mechanic. It simply makes more sense.
And yes, I'm still arguing that grit should be based on Wis OR Cha. Give people the choice to play either the calm, cool, collected gunslinger who never loses his head in battle, or the brash, cocky, swashbuckling risk taker that uses pure force of will to keep him alive.
I'm sort of in this camp, too. I've felt all along, and mentioned in another thread, that I would be happy with a more standard 3 + Ability mod/day situation.
Maybe a feat to add more. Maybe not, feats are valuable. But anyway...
If it's a mobile dashing character I want to see dodge, mobility and deft shootist IN class feats for free. Because this is eating up alot of feats otherwise it's hamburger time.
I don't MIND the recharge, but then again I COULD see going with NO grit what so ever. That would make recharge MOOT.
From what I've seen so far there is very little that is so powerful it needs to be limited by points, a few deeds could be just re written and simple be class features.
If we did a recharge deal, I'm leaning toward 1/10 minutes.
How about this for the Grit system. Give grit equal to Wisdom modifier at 1st level, then every level thereafter that the gunslinger gains a deed set, she gains +1 grit to her total (+5 by 19th level). Thus, a 19th level gunslinger with a 20 Wisdom (+5) would have 10 grit points. Then keep the recharge system, but make Daring Act a standard method and Kill an Enemy as the optional method?
Another thought I had too was Wis mod at the beginning of each day, but your maximu daily amount is equalt to 1/2 level + Wis modifier. Then keep the recharge system, but instead of it being a recharge, you build your grit up from you minimum to your max throughout the day? Just a thought.
thesse are the best two options, other then 1/2 level + Wis mod, and ditch the recharge method. I don't think the Paizo Devs will want to ditch the recharge method though.
I wouldnt mind that, I DO NOT like the kill = grit mechanic, i don't want to keep track of who killed who and all that drama.
1/10 min is cool.
Please don't bring back the Cha vs. Wis or Cha/Wis debate... :(
SRM pretty much ended that as it began, here.
He stated that they were open to it, and not to be suprised to see a variant that uses Cha. I merely propose that it be just built into the class, as an option, instead of a variant.
I wouldnt mind that, I DO NOT like the kill = grit mechanic, i don't want to keep track of who killed who and all that drama.
To which version specifically are you refering?
what you just said above
Again, what specifically? This one?
How about this for the Grit system. Give grit equal to Wisdom modifier at 1st level, then every level thereafter that the gunslinger gains a deed set, she gains +1 grit to her total (+5 by 19th level). Thus, a 19th level gunslinger with a 20 Wisdom (+5) would have 10 grit points. Then keep the recharge system, but make Daring Act a standard method and Kill an Enemy as the optional method?
This one?
Or this one?
I'm not being smart, I'd really like some constructive feed back on these concepts, because I think we need to find a balance between the recharge system and having enough grit to do anything. THe grit thing seems to still be a big issue for a lot of people.
I would kind of like it to be AoO based -- it's quick, it recharges, and it's easy to understand (give up AoO get this effect instead).
How about this for the Grit system. Give grit equal to Wisdom modifier at 1st level, then every level thereafter that the gunslinger gains a deed set, she gains +1 grit to her total (+5 by 19th level). Thus, a 19th level gunslinger with a 20 Wisdom (+5) would have 10 grit points. Then keep the recharge system, but make Daring Act a standard method and Kill an Enemy as the optional method?
Another thought I had too was Wis mod at the beginning of each day, but your maximu daily amount is equalt to 1/2 level + Wis modifier. Then keep the recharge system, but instead of it being a recharge, you build your grit up from you minimum to your max throughout the day? Just a thought.
thesse are the best two options, other then 1/2 level + Wis mod, and ditch the recharge method. I don't think the Paizo Devs will want to ditch the recharge method though.
this one
Uh...So you like them both? Which one do you prefer?
Uh...So you like them both? Which one do you prefer?
How about this for the Grit system. Give grit equal to Wisdom modifier at 1st level, then every level thereafter that the gunslinger gains a deed set, she gains +1 grit to her total (+5 by 19th level). Thus, a 19th level gunslinger with a 20 Wisdom (+5) would have 10 grit points. Then keep the recharge system, but make Daring Act a standard method and Kill an Enemy as the optional method?
Beginning at 1st level, at the start of each day, a gunslinger gains a number of grit points equal to her Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). Her grit goes up or down throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than her total grit, though some feats and magic items may affect this maximum. At every level thereafter, that the gunslinger gains a new deed set (3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th and 19th), her total grit permanently increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 19th level. A gunslinger spends grit to accomplish deeds (see below), and regains grit in the following ways.
Critical Hit with a Firearm: Each time the gunslinger confirms a critical hit with a firearm attack while in the heat of combat, she regains 1 grit point. Confirming a critical hit on a helpless or unaware creature or on a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the gunslinger’s character level does not restore grit.
Daring Act: Each time a gunslinger performs a daring act, she can regain grit. As a general guideline, a daring act should be risky and dramatic. It should take a good deal of guts, and its outcome should have a low probability of success. If it is successful, the gunslinger regains 1 grit point. Before attempting a daring act, the player should ask the GM whether the act qualifies. The GM is the final arbiter of what’s considered a daring act, and can grant a regained grit point for a daring act even if the player does not ask beforehand whether the act qualifies.
Somone want to play test this against the current version of Grit (Wid modifier only)?
** spoiler omitted **
Somone want to play test this against the current version of Grit (Wid modifier only)?
so basically +1 grit when i get new deeds, and no recharge on kills... yea Ill play test that tomorrow. That would give me 6 grit points.
I think maybe I might play test this:
wis mod at the beginning of the day, but +1 grit max at every deed set.
So If i do a daring act or crit I can add to my existing grit up to a max of 6.
which one should I go with, we are trying to finish up city of spears in serpents skull tomorrow night.
THat's my problem too. Not the "trying to finish up City of Spears" part, but that I like both versions, I'm not sure which to go with? I do like your hybrid idea of Wis mod beginning of the day, earn grit throughout the day up to a max of Wis mod +1 per deed set gained.
I like that.
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1/10 min is cool.
Please don't bring back the Cha vs. Wis or Cha/Wis debate... :(
SRM pretty much ended that as it began, here.
He stated that they were open to it, and not to be suprised to see a variant that uses Cha. I merely propose that it be just built into the class, as an option, instead of a variant.
So you're saying that despite many of us liking the fact that there's a gritty willpower manly man class out there based on WIS, and that we are giving Paizo our support for the Wis based gun-toting dude (especially since they said the dude will come with Wis bonus to AC...), that they will go ahead and provide a Cha gun dude option just to appease the masses? wow! way to go! I may think twice in the future before I support Paizo ideas and/or try to defend them and/or understand them from a fresh perspective.
Then again, I can understand why they would wanna give people what they want. It's a sign of business smarts and adaptability.
I just feel a little bummed out that the CHA crowd won this one I guess! :P (there's already so many Cha-based characters out there right now, and I still feel sore at losing my 13th level fighter back in the SD campaign and *being forced* to switch to paladin due to the sheer ineffectiveness and bad will saves the fighters have...)
Bro, chill. Its not a battle, and never was. Cha makes sense just as much as Wis, for different reasons. There are those of us that just want the option, not a full switch. So chill.
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I really like the concept of a class pool that goes up and down.
That said, these mechanics don't really seem to make that happen. Its not easy to get killing blows. Especially with the sub-optimal damage that this class does. Confirming crits seems not too hard vs touch ac, but you're only getting a opportunity to confirm on 20s (or 19s and 20s with improved crit) which is even harder than normal since you only make one attack most rounds.
Basically I see grit only going down. Which is not as advertised and makes it much weaker than other resource pools like ki or arcane (ref magus) due to its small size.
I would love a dynamic resource, but if I can't get it this fix seems reasonable... though I kind of doubt the utility of grit at all.
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Here is my problem with the gunslinger as is: half of his abilities are aimed at overcoming the obstacles imposed by the inferiority of the gun, be it misfires, cost of ammo or reload time.
To make it a viable party member, there's a lot of upgrades this class needs to have, otherwise I'm sorry but bow archer ranger or fighter is still the best option for a ranged PC.
Free lightning reload is a good start, but it needs to come sooner. Dead Shot (as is) is not good enough, especially since you have to pool all attacks at one target (i.e. again the bow guy wins, as he can pick at several targets in one round), so essentially, dear devs, please take your foot OFF the brake for Dead Shot and remember it's a 7th level ability AND that the gunslinger is restricted to one target. Misfires, however, are a real bugger: a regular PC that takes Exotic Prof Firearms... ok, misfire is fine as you're getting Touch AC in exchange, not a small boon. But geez! for gunslingers!! who devote their entire 20 level progression to guns?!? why misfire? what's the bloody fun in that? I don't care if you give it to them at 5th or 7th level, but by mid-level range, it is unacceptable to have a warrior-type class have his weapon gain the broken condition on a 1 or 2, especially when the magical gun will be no doubt in the range of 20-30K gp in terms on enhancements... I also share the sentiment that grit points have to go altogether, and perhaps just unlock the deeds and make them at will. After all, with all these abilities, they can still only do one of them per round or per attack in most case...
Finally, you're letting these guys hit against Touch AC (90% of fights will be in the first range increment). With their large DEX bonus, in most case, it makes it dead easy to hit the target. Why don't you build abilities that enhance damage or do cool things if you take a penalty to the attack roll? This is where some of the most innovative efforts should be pooled in IMO. Think long and hard about it: it will be a no brainer to hit touch AC, and the only time they will fail, they will do so during a misfire!! LOL! So please build in some things that take advantage of all the extra surplus attack roll available... (i.e. take -10 to hit and inflict bleed, or sunder, or disarm, or unseat a rider... or gain a bonus to AC) I know the targeting deed has similar features, but there needs to be 'better' schticks for them.
Free lightning reload is a good start, but it needs to come sooner. Dead Shot (as is) is not good enough, especially since you have to pool all attacks at one target (i.e. again the bow guy wins, as he can pick at several targets in one round), so essentially, dear devs, please take your foot OFF the brake for Dead Shot and remember it's a 7th level ability AND that the gunslinger is restricted to one target.
I totally agree PDK! I suggested in my "Proposal for the Gunslinger Final Version" thread that Lighting Reload should be 3rd level, and that Dead Shot needs to be exactly what I showed you in that other thread. Currently, the gunslinger has so many things that need to be overcome due to the guns, they need to give the class REALLY good deeds or features to make it viable. Devs, you have to give Dead Shot the ability to do what PDK (via me) suggested in the "Proposal for the Gunslinger Final Version".
Misfires, however, are a real bugger: a regular PC that takes Exotic Prof Firearms... ok, misfire is fine as you're getting Touch AC in exchange, not a small boon. But geez! for gunslingers!! who devote their entire 20 level progression to guns?!? why misfire? what's the bloody fun in that? I don't care if you give it to them at 5th or 7th level, but by mid-level range, it is unacceptable to have a warrior-type class have his weapon gain the broken condition on a 1 or 2, especially when the magical gun will be no doubt in the range of 20-30K gp in terms on enhancements...
I REALLY Like where you're going here! Amateur Gunslingers and anyone else using a firearm should have the misfire chance, no matter what. I know there are Firearm special magical properties that do this, but the Gunslinger, a "20 level gun expert" should be able to do this by himself by 7th level or so. After all, who is it that created the advanced firearms? GUNSLINGERS!!! SO I echo your suggestion PDK. The devs need to include something that allows the Gunslinger (and only the gunslinger, with a level requirement) to negate misfires altogether with his weapon chosen at 1st level feature.
How about this? I rewrote my previous Gunsmith feature and changed it to this.
Over time, the gunslinger becomes accustomed to unique nuances of her chosen firearm. Beginning at 1st level, as a standard action, the gunslinger can perform a quick clearing action to remove the broken condition from a single firearm she is currently wielding, as long as that condition was gained by a firearm misfire. At 3rd level, the gunslinger can perform this maneuver as a move-equivalent action, and at 5th level as a swift action.
Additionally, through extensive research and experimentation, the gunslinger has learned how to improve and maintain her firearm’s reliability. Beginning at 7th level, the gunslinger can permanently reduce the misfire value of her firearm chosen at 1st level to 0. In addition, she can lower misfire value of any other firearm she us currently wielding by 2 (minimum 1). However, this improvement to her firearm does not affect the chance of misfire of paper alchemical cartridges, nor does it affect advanced firearms since they have no risk of misfire. At 9th level, whenever the gunslinger rolls a misfire with a gun that has the broken condition, she can keep the gun from exploding, though it retains the broken condition.
Anyone else that uses the firearm should still suffer from misfires. ONLY a gunslinger should have the knowledge to do so. Just like the Fighter should only have certain feats, then the gunslinger should only be able to do this (without magic). Although a fighter is considered the ultimate warrior and weapon expert, firearms are a new weapon, and only those who can create them should know them inside-out. PERIOD!!! Alchemists ARE NOT penalized for using bombs or mutagen.
I also share the sentiment that grit points have to go altogether, and perhaps just unlock the deeds and make them at will. After all, with all these abilities, they can still only do one of them per round or per attack in most case...
I don’t think the Devs will toss the Grit mechanic, so I think everyone needs to deal with it. We need to work within the Grit mechanic to improve it. So instead of grumphing around about removing the Grit mechanic, lets all try to work together and come up with a way to improve it. Either increase grit, remove the recharge, etc. Grit isn’t going anywhere.
Finally, you're letting these guys hit against Touch AC (90% of fights will be in the first range increment). With their large DEX bonus, in most case, it makes it dead easy to hit the target. Why don't you build abilities that enhance damage or do cool things if you take a penalty to the attack roll? This is where some of the most innovative efforts should be pooled in IMO. Think long and hard about it: it will be a no...
That be something they could add too, is either Deeds or Grit Feats that give negs to their attack rolls against touch AC, with a GOOD effect an interesting result.
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I think the limitations on Dead Shot are because most fights are at close/melee range. That means pretty much guaranteed touch AC to hit.
Having played several Warlocks in 3.x I can honestly say that a Medium BAB class doesn't need to pump Dex to hit touch ACs. With full BAB, they are basically guaranteed to hit. Attack bonus is a resource that Gunslingers have plenty of to burn. May as well use it.
I agree about Touch AC... maybe Dead Shot has been nerfed from the full pickle due to this Touch AC thing...
I'm glad you also share my thoughts on attack bonus surplus that could be used for something. That could make the class cool... a multiple richochet ability could be obtained that way, or a piercing shot that goes through several foes... or through foes then ricochet then more foes....... etc.
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Elghinn, I really like your Gunsmithing update and how you negate misfires over 7 levels. Nice! I would change only one thing: instead of referring to the "initial" weapon, which could be interpreted as "the old junk gun the gunslinger started with", I would say "the type of gun chosen at 5th level as part of the Gun Training class feature."
A gunslinger will go through more than one gun in his life I think, or may have various backup guns with different abilities (such as ghost touch, distance, seeking or holy)
PDK, I had thought about that, but it seems to me that the "old junky" gun is more than just that. It seems to me to be like an heirloom type weapon. You can pay to upgrade it to masterwork after 1 day of work, then it's totally viable to be enchanted like any other weapon.
So my thought was that that particular weapon is special, like a bonded weapon, just no magical enhancements like paladins or wizards can do. That's why I still give those of the same type, the initial +1 attack/damage, but that particular gun the +Dex mod damage. Know what I mean. Even though it isn't blatant, the Devs seem to want the characters to become attached to their first gun, much like fighters have favorite weapons, or the old samurai had their ancestral weapon.
I know in my playing I'd keep an old less powerful weapon that I had attachment to over other better ones. I'd just wait to get my "old reliables" enchanted when I could afford it. Anyways, that's the point of view I'm coming from. Thoughts?
EDIT: However, I am reconsidering it. If a gunslinger chooses a musket at 1st level, then she should be able to negate the misfire on any msuket she wields at the time, much like a wizard can make her arcane bond with any "wand" if wh chose wand at 1st level.
I completely disagree with no grit recharge. It sucks to play a non-spellcaster and find out you're as limited as a spellcaster. A lot of the gunslinger abilities rely on grit, the recharge is fine as it is. There is no metagaming.
Why? Because gunslingers live for the thrill. So it makes sense for PC gunslingers to WANT to do crazy stunts, and thus, a benefit should be given other than success. Other classes, no, they want to take the route that's not going to easily get them killed. The game is about survival, after all. There's a good chance gunslingers will die by the dozens if they keep trying to pull stunts just to get grit, but that actually SUITS the theme of the class.
To prove my point, ALL the nonspellcasting classes with abilities have almost no limitations to how often then can be used. Some rogue talents may be 1/day, that's extremely rare though.
You could argue Barbarian rage, but I have seen feats and rage powers that now actually RECHARGE some of your rage rounds back.
I want Paizo to take the "Tome of Battle" direction with nonspellcasting classes. It's how they have to be to contend even a little with spellcasters.