When I read about how the Maure family treated with demons and in fact explored those planes of existance it got me thinking about the eight pointed star and how it might relate as it is suggested in the adventure to other demi-planes or outer planes. This would be very cool to create a singular planar touchstone for each of the eight points with the Planar Handbook rules. I don't know if we will ever see more development with Maure in Dungeon (I certainly hope so) but I was wondering if anyone else has ran with this and what they have done with their individual campaigns with regard to the carving of the eight pointed star.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I also think that Maure Castle could be the super-Dungeon that Greyhawk has never really had. Castle Greyhawk was promised but haphazardly delivered in two modules. Maure Castle, to judge by the hooks, could be developed for quite some time. In such case, I do not think waiting on EGG or Rob Kuntz should be a prerequisite. If they can submit say once a year, that would be great. If their schedules will not allow that, then someone else should be allowed to develop a level. Mauce Castle could be Dungeon's continuing super-Dungeon.
The above-quoted text exactly describes my plan for Maure Castle, and pinpoints the exact reason why I was excited about the feature in the first place (beyond the obvious appeal of collaborating with Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz).
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon
Hey, Erik, is there any possibility of the Maure Castle maps ever being made available as PDFs? I'd love to easy access to them without mangling or cutting up the magazine. :-)
Ari Marmell
aka
Mouseferatu
--Rodent of the Darkwww.mouseferatu.com
I certainly second that. I put the maps into a laptop so this saves me from flattening the magazine when scanning them in.
I'll buy any issue with more Maure. Keep them coming.
Also are the forthcoming expansions going to be limited to just the castle or will it explore the eight-pointed star and present rules for seul power magic?
I ran Maure Castle for my husband, brother and best friend over Christmas. It was a smash hit, and I even got to kill my brother! What more could an older sister want? :-p This module rocks.
Well then, I eagerly await the next installment.
I also would like to have the maps in .PDF (and the other very nice pictures found in issue #112). This module is just awesome! Thanks Dungeon!
I flipped through that issue a while ago and I've gotten a subscription to Dungeon because of the new direction, but I started buying them around issue 117. I'm thinking of ordering the Maure Castle issue and if I did, having .pdfs of the maps would be great.
Could anyone here give a general over-view of what the dungeon's like? I just want to see if it's the type of thing that my group would enjoy and I can't find it on any store shelves now to give it a good second look. It seemed exciting the first time I looked through it, but it was real cursory (quick stop in a store on the way somewhere else, you know how it is). It'd be great to get a second impression.
Thanks!
Could anyone here give a general over-view of what the dungeon's like?
I've read the adventure a few times, and my general overview is that it is an extremely difficult and fun dungeon crawl, in the vein of older, "classic" D&D modules. The best way for you to get a feel is to read the other "Maure Castle" stream in this forum. ASEO has kept a cool journal there of his experience running it.
Could anyone here give a general over-view of what the dungeon's like?I've read the adventure a few times, and my general overview is that it is an extremely difficult and fun dungeon crawl, in the vein of older, "classic" D&D modules. The best way for you to get a feel is to read the other "Maure Castle" stream in this forum. ASEO has kept a cool journal there of his experience running it.
Just looked through it... wow, this seems pretty cool... especially for $7. I may just have to order it tonight.
Just looked through it... wow, this seems pretty cool... especially for $7. I may just have to order it tonight.
You've seen how many character deaths there were in ASEO1's campaign. Maybe prepare to lose a few friends over this.
Our group is currently in "Kerzit's Fane". I've taken over the DM's chair for the remainder of the level, and I'll be doing the Statuary level too. (Our "Big Honcho DM" :) did the first 2 3/4 levels, while I was a player.)
We've found it to be ...okay....but it's been hard for us (as players) to follow the story. The module is _so_ big and diffuse that it took us a long time to finish a level. What with playing every other week......we lose quite a bit between sessions. Now that I'm in the DM chair, and have had a chance to read thru it, all I can say is "Wow, did we miss a lot of the story". Didn't miss any of the monsters, though. :)
In addition, I'm now preping the demon Kerzit. His CR is *radically* too low. Frankly, I'm amazed no one else has pointed this out! Kerzit is listed as CR 18....yet he's better than a CR 20 Balor, by a significant margin.
I've found the Nabassu (adult) are too low too. These are not CR 14 creatures as written; compare to any MM (3.5e) or MMIII demon/devil, and you'll see why.
What gives?
(asked in a *nice* way) :)
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Creative Director
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Ah... the joys of the CR system! I've found that calculating monster CRs is 1/3 math, 1/3 comparing to similar monsters from the Monster Manual, and 1/3 guesswork. Basically, I look at a monster's hit points, AC, primary attack, average damage if all attacks hit, saving throws, and the DC for its special abilities (if any), and then compare them to similar monsters.
Kerzit, for example, is supposed to be at the high end of his CR band. He's a unique demon, so he should be a memorable fight; this is the same reason that dragons are generally at the top of their CR bands. SO, let's compare Kerzit to a mature adult red dragon.
Kerzit vs. Mature Adult Red Dragon
Kerzit HP: 324
Dragon HP: 312
Kerzit AC: 36, touch 12, flat-footed 33
Dragon AC: 32, touch 8, flat-footed 32
Kerzit Primary Attack: +37
Dragon Primary Attack: +34
Kerzit Average Damage: 91
Dragon Average Damage: 75
Kerzit Saves: +23/+22/+17
Dragon Saves: +20/+14/+18
Kerzit Save DC: 31
Dragon Save DC: 28
Hmm. Yeah, I think Kerzit might indeed be under CR'd. Not sure what I was thinking last year when I was editing his stats. If I were doing his stats up today, I'd probably give him a CR of 20. Maybe even a 21, since he has the rend special attack. He's probably just a little bit better than a balor, althoguh the balor's at will blasphemy and at will power word stun (in fact, all it's spell-like abilities) and vorpal sword are pretty tough.
Now, on to the nabassu; let's compare it to the other CR 14 demon from the Monster Manual.
Nabassu vs. Nalfeshnee
Nabassu HP: 202
Nalfeshnee HP 175
Nabassu AC: 31, touch 15, flat-footed 26
Nalfeshnee AC: 27, touch 9, flat-footed 26
Nabassu Primary Attack: +24
Nalfeshnee Primary Attack: +20
Nabassu Average Damage: 35 (up to 98 if they're all sneak attacks)
Nalfeshnee Average Damage: 31
Nabassu Saves: +20/+14/+16
Nalfeshnee Saves: +17/+10/+15
Nabassu Save DC: 25
Nalfeshnee Save DC: 22
Hmmm... The nabassu looks a bit too rough for CR 14 also. I think it could stand to have its CR bumped to 15. Maybe even CR 16.
However, all that said, for high-level monsters, I think perhaps it's okay to err on the lower end of a 2-3 point CR spread since high-level characters have SO many options and present SO many opportunities for a monster to miss a crucial save against a destruction or similar spell. Kerzit's outragous hit points and AC and damage won't help at all against a flying PC armed with potent ranged attacks, for example.
SO, long story short... I think I agree with you, Nail, that the CRs for Kerzit and the nabassu in Dungeon #112 might both be one or two points low.
Then again, this IS "Maure Castle." It's kinda supposed to be unfair and deadly, so maybe the under-CRd mosnters work! (insert diabolical DM laughter here)
Or maybe they both just need warning labels:
Kerzit and the Nabassu: HANDLE WITH CARE!
Thanks for your quick reply, James!!! :)
Ah... the joys of the CR system!
Indeed. I feel fer ya. :)
I think the "art" part of CR is over-rated. There are plenty of examples in the core books to give you a model. And there are even more "fan-based" resources to tap into. Even a (gasp!) combat spreadsheet might be appropriate, especially for the end "boss" monsters.
Kerzit, for example, is supposed to be at the high end of his CR band. He's a unique demon, so he should be a memorable fight; this is the same reason that dragons are generally at the top of their CR bands.
That may be; in fact, I'd be disappointed if this wasn't a good fight...but the CR system already takes care of that, and the "bands" are not quite as wide as you suppose.
Our group's PCs, after starting at 12th level on dungeon level #1, are now 14. That puts a CR 18 (EL 18) 4 over the PC's average party level, which (by DMG definition!) means a significant challenge. Perhaps overwhelming.
And I'm fine with that. :) :D
But Kerzit is not CR 18, by any standards. (I really appreciate your candor, BTW!) He's certainly CR 20, and quite possibly CR 21. He compares *extremely* favorably with the Balor -- in fact, he's tougher.
Concider the "Abyssal Wound" ability. Kerzit should simply hit every PC once, then teleport away! A DC 31 Caster level check means only a 20% chance for a 14th level Cleric to be effective with a Cure or Heal spell. Considering everyone will be losing 4 hp per round.....I'd guess we're looking at at least 1 PC death just from blood loss while the Cleric is fumbling his caster level checks!
Concider Kerzit's ability to summon other Tanar'ri. A Balor (CR 20) can summon another balor (or 1 glabrezu) 1/day. Yoowza. But Kerzit can summon 1d4+1 glabrezus *twice* per day with a 70% chance of success. I'd say those two abilities are awfully comparable.
How about melee combat?
> Kerzit Average Damage: 91
> Dragon Average Damage: 75
Actually you can calculate how much damage (full-round attack) each does per round vs any given AC. Lets pick AC 35 as an "average" tank-PC AC; that's a low for our APL 14 party, I might add.
Kerzit Average Damage per round vs AC 35: 118
Dragon Average Damage per round vs AC 35: 82
I assumed the Mature Adult Red Dragon took the Multiattack feat, and Weapon Focus (Bite).
As you can see, Kerzit cleans the Mature Adult Dragon's clock with ease. Really, it's not even a contest! (Consider that we haven't even used Power Attack for Kerzit yet...and he'll get far more out of it than a dragon would.) Moreover, I'm neglecting the Abyssal Wound ability and the Rend ability.
The Nabassu has the same sorts of troubles. I won't go into it here, although I'd be happy to later, if someone would like.
My Point: The CRs are too (and two!) low for the Nabassu and Kerzit.
"So what? Maure is deadly!"
Fine. I think that's peachy. But having the CRs too low has 2 very important consequences:
#1) The encounters are not appropriately balanced for the party, and some DMs won't notice that until after the TPK.
#2) Should the PCs manage to defeat the monsters, they won't get the appropriate XP for the encounter! Tell me, would you *like* defeating a CR 20 monster and getting the XP for a CR 18 monster? That pleases you? 8^]
Okay........
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Creative Director
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One of the tools I use to help estimate a monster's CR is a handy little spreadsheet that has all the average HP, AC, Primary Attacks, Benchmark aaverage damage, saves, and special ability DCs from the Monster Manual all gathered into one handy table. And according to that table, both Kerzit and the nabassu are looking pretty solid (althoguh perhaps both are a bit high on the attack bonuses); the dragon and the nalfeshnee actually look pretty anemic.
Which is my way of saying that I think that a lot of the high-CR monsers from the Monster Manual might have overly-inflated CRs. According to my handly little table, for example, the nalfeshnee would be a CR 12 monster. The dragon still clocks in at CR 18, though.
Anyway, what I normally do is generate the monster's initial CR using this table, and then try to compare it to other monsters in the various books to see how he stacks up. Looks like Kerzit and the nabassu slipped through the cracks, althoguh I do have vague proto-memories of being tortured about whether to give the nabassu a CR 14 or 15, and probably just played it conservative and gave him a 14.
In any case, CR 18 or 21, Kerzit's supposed to be a menace. If a group starts Maure Castle at level 12 and does every encounter, they should probably get to Kerzit as level 15 or even 16 characters. Fortunately, Kerzit's kind of squirrelled away in a corner, and defeating him isn't required to proceed with the adventure (unless killing him's the reason your PCs came down into the dungeon in the first place).
The boards have been down alot, or I would have responded earlier. Again, I really appreciate your comments.
One of the tools I use to help estimate a monster's CR is a handy little spreadsheet that has all the average HP, AC, Primary Attacks, Benchmark aaverage damage, saves, and special ability DCs from the Monster Manual all gathered into one handy table.
Awesome! I have a similar xcl spreadsheet...and mine doesn't lead me to that conclusion. Mind if I look at yer spreadsheet?
It could be that the Dragons included in your table are skewing the results....most have admited that Dragon CRs are too low for their combat effectiveness. But without including dragons, there's virtually nothing to take an "average" of at high CRs.
The average values change by leaps and bounds if you remove Dragons from the calculations from CR 10 through CR 20. Surely all non-dragon monsters above CR 9 are not "off"?
Moreover I'm interested in this "Benchmark Average Damage" you speak of. Surely that must assume some "average AC" against which the monster attacks. What are those ACs? (I hope not those listed in the sample NPC descriptions in the DMG!)
I think that a lot of the high-CR monsers from the Monster Manual might have overly-inflated CRs
Could be. I'm not so sure. There sure has been "power creep" amongst WotC products. MMIII creatures are almost always tougher than MM equivalents.
We know that CR = APL should not mean "a tough challenge"; it should mean "use about 20% of party resources, but no deaths". If that's the case, then (IMO, of course), most CRs in the MM are quite close.
Have you looked at the CR system in "Grim Tales"? It's quite good.
Anyway, I haven't decided yet whether to change Kerzit's CR to its correct level, or scale him down to a real CR 18. Any suggestions?
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Creative Director
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Unfortunatley, I can't send out the spreadsheet since it was developed by Wizards of the Coast for internal use. But it doesn't have anything that's not already in the books, really. It just gathers everything into one page.
"Benchmark Average Damage" is basically the average damage a creature of that CR would do if all its attacks hit in one round. Average AC doesn't really figure in at all, since it assumes all attacks hit.
As for "power creep," I think that might be more a result of the designers becoming more comfortable with designing high-level monsters. Balancing high-level monsters for play is a relatively new "science" in D&D; before 3rd edition, the game was mostly focused on low and mid level play. A 20th level fighter could easilly have a +35 to hit with his sword, and that means he'll pretty much always hit every CR 20 monster in the Monster Manual with every hit (with the exception of the pit fiend, perhaps).
As for Kerzit... I'd personally go with keeping him as-is, upping his CR to 20, and going from there. Remember, defeating Kerzit isn't a requirement for advancing to the end of the adventure. Just as the terrible iron golem on the 1st level probably can't be easilly defeated by the PCs on their first visit, Kerzit is probably best kept as a menace that they'll have to come back for later.
Unfortunatley, I can't send out the spreadsheet since it was developed by Wizards of the Coast...
Shucks. (hangs head) I understand, but....shucks.
"Benchmark Average Damage" is basically the average damage a creature of that CR would do if all its attacks hit in one round.
Got it. But...is that really meaningful? I don't think so.
As for "power creep," I think that might be more a result of the designers becoming more comfortable with designing high-level monsters.
That could be. As the MM changed since 3.0e, it seemed like many of those problems went away. The demons, as a particular example, received lots of boosts....and for good reason. Tactics changed too; for example, now the designers admit the Balor is better as a ranged combatant.
As for Kerzit... I'd personally go with keeping him as-is, upping his CR to 20...
I may just do that. Thanks!
Nail, I highly recommend checking out these excel sheets. They don't have monsters outside of the core books but you can always add those if you want.
Nail, I highly recommend checking out these excel sheets. They don't have monsters outside of the core books but you can always add those if you want.
Thanks....but I already have them.
The "difficulty" with seeker's tables: they don't include Dragons, Animals, or Vermin. Considering some of these are high CR monsters (especially the dragons!), these are serious omissions.
Does someone have tables with the dragons included? 'Cause boy, are they a pain to put in. I've been working on and off for months putting a few of them in......
Never noticed those ommisions before, bummer.
I suppose someone with some time on their hands and some initiative could upload those into Access which would make adding records a breeze. If only I had that sort of motivation. :)
The difficulty of adding new material lies with dragons, and how their info is spread out in the MM. Gees, are those things a pain-in-the-butt to stat up....and yet, if you look above, the Dungeon editor is modeling Kerzit's CR on that of a comparable dragon.
By hand, I've added some of the high CR dragons, and then compared them to that of the "non-dragon" high CR monsters in the MM. There is a significant difference. Sigh.
Back to the topic of Maure Castle: Next week I run the end of the 3rd level of Maure Castle. Because of James Jacob's comments, I've decided to change the CRs of the creatures, rather than remove or lessen powers.
We'll see how it goes. For the record, my group has 6 PCs, APL 13.5. Effective character level (accounting for number of PCs) is 14.7. Advice from the DMG when the PCs run into Kerzit: "Run Away!!!"
Wish them luck.....they may not get the chance to run away. :(
Hello All,
I just ran my group through the "Tormorast's Preparation rooms" (#95 - #97, I think). It's in the "Kerzit's Fane", level 3, behind the secret door. The party enountered (read: "got surprised by") and fought (read: "got slaughtered by") the 2 nabassu hiding in the curtains and their summoned help.
Earlier in this thread I had discussed the appropriateness of the Nabassu's CR. As written, it's not a CR 14, even by MMIII standards. I took the liberty of removing a few spell-like powers and a few HD...but kept all of the "goodies", like the Death Gaze, the sneak attack, Blasphemy, summon demon and undead abilities, etc. I believe they are now (as adjusted) CR 14s. Maybe. :)
The party was:
Rog12/Ftr2
Ftr13
Psi14
Sor13/Clr1
Mnk13 (vow of poverty)
Wiz13
The rogue and the fighter were the first in the room, and so they were the ones surprised. (Nabassu and Babau hide checks were good enough.) During the surprise round the Nabassu closed but missed their sneak attacks. The (summoned already) babau leapt out and tried to attack....but the PCs AC was pretty good, even flat-footed.
Then we all rolled initiative. A few of the spell-casting PCs got to go first, but cast defensive spells. Then the Nabassu went: Gaze attack as a standard action at the Ftr and Rog......and both rolled "1" on their saves! Ouch --> Dead before they could even take an action!
I thought for sure the surviving PCs would bolt, but the Wiz 13 stepped up and instead cast Prismatic Spray.....and turned one of the nabassus to stone! (Whew! It won't be a TPK after all, I thought....)
The battle that ensued saw the Nabassu kill two other PCs with their gaze attacks (DC25 Fort saves): the Mnk13 and Sor13/Clr1. The Wiz13 squeaked by because I forgot (doh!) about the gaze attack for a round or so. (The lone Nabassu, and hence me, was too busy Dispelling the Psi14 buff spells so we could hit him!) The Sor13/Clr1 kept up a steady barrage of damaging spells, before the Nabassu was able to snuff him.
All told, and perhaps unsurprisingly, the battle ended for the poor lone Nabassu at the wrong end of a Disintegrate spell. Still, the body count was impressive: 4 PCs dead, 2 survived.
APL: 13.5, Effective APL (more than 4 members:14.7
EL: 16
Result: a very deadly encounter!
....I wonder how the next encounter will go. The PCs are resting, revivifying comrades, and then moving on......
My party just took on Eli. They managed to completely avoid Kerzit's Fane and the rest of the Statuery. They went the most direct route from level 2 to level 4 and confronted him in his room.
They had surprise and beat them on initiative so a potentially suicidal attack was turned into victory.
Here is the party makeup
Minotar Warrior 12
Arcane Archer 12
Psionocist 12
Cleric/wizard 4/10
Monk 14
The monk dimension doors the minotaur to Eli. Mino grapples Eli and places a cap of opposite alignment on his head. They then proceed to subdue the rogue and Eli as well.
Eli casts time stop ("Tempus Fugit!") buffs up (he got 5 rounds - mirror image, Dragon Might, Shield, Stoneskin, left hand buff, right hand buff, defensive clasp). He flys straight up to be out of reach of the melee characters. During timestop he also casts Acid Fog and Evards black tentacles on the partys wizard, psionicist and Arcane Archer.
Eli's rogue henchman was then suppose to shoot a silence arrow into the acid fog to keep the wizard from casting but he is knocked out before he can get a shot off. The entire fight the party is trying to convince Eli to give up and continue to do subdue damage.
The partys wizard dispels Eli managing to knock out shield, stoneskin and most importently fly. He drops to the ground and falls prone. The monk and minotaur proceed to knock him out.
Party deaths: 0.
Varda, Eli's fighter companion, surrenders. They tie them up revive them and talk Eli into becoming an ally instead of an enemy. Wracked by guilt for his past transgressions (his just gone from CE to LG) he vows to make amends and proceeds to tell the party about Kerzit and the Book of Vile Darkness.
The gnolls are dismissed and with Yug-Anark dead they are happy to go. That leaves only Kerzit and the Maurids to deal with. The partys next target is to destroy Kerzit and the book along with him.
Was an interesting move on my players part and it worked out well for them. Eli will now clean up the dungeon and maintain it peacefully as he continues to do his reasearch. The wizard has access to a high level mentor and the party has access to their own personal scholar.
I love it when unexpected things like this make the game change directions all of a sudden.
Wow! "Cap of Opposite Alignment", huh? Where'd they get that?
I must admit, I've decided to re-vamp the Statuary level map. I'll keep the room descriptions...but I intensely dislike the arrangement of the rooms and the "squareness" of the map. The map doesn't make sense, given the room descriptions and the background information.
9 days from now (real time), the players go past rooms #95 - #97. Let's see how they do!
Wow! "Cap of Opposite Alignment", huh? Where'd they get that?
There's an eponymous Helm in the DMG. Eli must have rolled a natural one against the save, though: Will DC 15 negates.
Wow! "Cap of Opposite Alignment", huh? Where'd they get that?There's an eponymous Helm in the DMG. Eli must have rolled a natural one against the save, though: Will DC 15 negates.
Well if he was incapacitated they could slap the helm on him as many times as needed until he rolled a one.
The cap was from Arley the Weaver.
He was surprised and then prone/grappled. I ruled they could put the cap on him. I DID forget to roll the save tho! I just assumed it was auto. Not sure why. I didnt realise until the end of the game session. But this way works out to be a more interesting story so I let it slide :)
Has anyone started the other adventures hinted at in various places
The cap was from Arley the Weaver.
He was surprised and then prone/grappled. I ruled they could put the cap on him. I DID forget to roll the save tho! I just assumed it was auto. Not sure why. I didnt realise until the end of the game session. But this way works out to be a more interesting story so I let it slide :)
he could just be pretending... Stab the PC's in the back at an opertune moment and all that.
he could just be pretending... Stab the PC's in the back at an opertune moment and all that.The cap was from Arley the Weaver.
He was surprised and then prone/grappled. I ruled they could put the cap on him. I DID forget to roll the save tho! I just assumed it was auto. Not sure why. I didnt realise until the end of the game session. But this way works out to be a more interesting story so I let it slide :)
Good idea :)
Has anyone started the other adventures hinted at in various places
The original reason the party is here in my game is to retrieve one of the keys to the star at the entrance - a copper triangle that stinks of custard gone bad.
Tho the party hasnt used the key if they do I plan on having them goto a touchstone site from the Manual of the Planes. This particular key goes to the touchestone sight on Mechanus. The one where access requires the character to win a debate.
But I think my characters are just happy to know what it does (Eli told them). I dont think they will use it as they have other pressing issues.
Hello All!
Last night I ran my group through the last bit of level 3: Kerzit's Caverns. I took the advice from above an kept Kerzit's stats (mostly; changed a few feats) the same, but I bumped the CR up to 20.
Again, the party is:
Psi 14
Wiz 14
Rog 12/Ftr 2
Clr 1/ Sor 13
Ftr 13
Mnk 13 (VoP)
After we were done with the session, one of the players said, "Can I read and post to that Paizo 'Maure Castle' thread you keep talking about? I'd like to ....well, let's just say I'd like to 'talk' with 'em!....."
So, rather than posting what happened, I'll let my players do it. I think they might have some interesting things to say.
I've only been DMing Maure Castle for the last 3 sessions.
- * One session (2 battles!) to clear out the Gate to the Abyss, found in the Temple of Kerzit room (an encounter entirely of my own devising),
- * One session being ambushed by the 2 Nabassus in Tormorast's preparation chambers, and
- * One session (2 battles!) trying, and eventually succeeding, in killing Kerzit.
In all, we had 3 deaths the 1st session, 4 deaths the 2nd session, and 6 deaths the 3rd session. IIRC!! Yoowza.
Any of the other players want to post?
As an aside:
I've realized since the fight that I made a number of mistakes. :) The results of the fight still stand, obviously.
First of all, Kerzit had Unholy Aura up. That meant that the psion's constructs couldn't attack him, and that all the PC melee combatants would have taken lots of Strength damage.
Second, I forgot to enforce the Herzou's Stench ability. I suspect many PCs would have been nausated.
Third......
Say, do all the rest of you make as many mistakes during combat, especially high level combat? It's frustrating sometimes.
Zeph, here...another of the "unfortunate" PC's to go up against Kerzit in Nail's running of 'the Fane'.
I would like to state that I made it out of the encounter without dying ( BTW, I'm the Wizard ), but I can't. One unfortunate hit from Kerzit took me out on the CON damage alone.
I did learn some new things, though during this round...
1. If you're going to memorize Force Cage, you should probably memorize Dimensional Anchor.
2. If you're going to memorize Banishment, you should probably memorize Assay Resistance.
These two oversights cost me my life ( but only once )...so, that's something for me to remember next time.
One last thing to mention, just to underscore how LUCKY we got...3 party members are dead, the only 3 left are the Wizard, the Psion, and the Rogue...the Psion and myself have decided to teleport out, because we are running out of spells and PP's, so we are trying to gather the bodies. Kerzit makes a lunge for the Psion before he can teleport out - it looks like it might be curtains for the Psion...but Kerzit has to pass by the Rogue, and suck up an AoO...which was enough to drop him at the Psion's feet! He was that low! And we were prepping to leave!
All in all, a VERY TOUGH battle, and quite expensive. After reading through this thread, I do agree that this EL is just way too high for what the adventure says is an appropriate party level. I suppose it's our "if it's evil, we must destroy it at all costs" mentality. I hate to think what's coming up on the next level! I'll be sure to post once we get through it ( assuming we DO get through it )!
Zeph
Hey Zeph! (Thanks for posting! You too, Videssian!)
(Whew! They don't hate my DMing....yet. :) )
Last wednesday the PCs battled Kerzit.....twice. The first time they didn't know what was in the caverns, or what to expect, so a full party rout was (IMHO) _inevitable_. The question was simply: "How fast can the PCs realize they're gonna get hosed and leave?" Seriously: what APL 14 party could possibly do this on the first try?
Kerzit had cast Darkness in lots of places (to Hide). The PCs slowly crept into the caverns.....until Kerzit could hear them enter an area nearby that he had not cast darkness on. Charge!
Kerzit focused his attentions on the spell casters, where possible. The warrior types he ignored if possible; given his AC, hp, and DR, that seems like a "gimme" => attack those that could actually destroy you: the spell-slingers. I thought this attitude was especially relevant, given Tormorast's treatment of Kerzit.
Kerzit's poisonous bite was shown off in this first battle. That DC and Con damage is huge! Even the Psion got nervous. Kerzit's wounding saw-arms didn't get to see much use, except near the end, as the party was teleporting out. I did not use the demon-summoning ability -- which runs counter to the advice in the Dungeon Magazine, BTW. I thought: he doesn't know how tough the PCs are...so why should he summon help? Kerzit wanted all the gore and bone marrow to himself!
Dead: Wiz 14, Ftr 14, Rog 14 ....3 out of 6 PCs.
As the players preped fot the next attempt (including True Res. their 3 companions), I left the room. No need for DM tactics to be changed by players planning sessions!
Once ready, they teleoprted into the center of the caverns, in an area not covered with darkness. The psion had previously summoned 3 large astral constructs.....boy-howdy, are those things powerful! Could someone explain to me how those things are approximately equal to the same level Summon Monster?
They spread out, while Kerzit (in another part of the caverns) summoned 5 Herzous. That kinda threw the PCs for a loop....no longer could they concentrate their attacks on the BBEG. Kerzit also cast Unholy Aura on himself...and then the DM promptly forgot about it. Doh!!! I forgot to use the quickened Unholy Blight for some of the rounds as well.
Kerzit teleported in while the PCs were attacking the Herzous. Mass Chaos, lemme tell ya. Kerzit kept aiming for the spell casters, while the fighter types chased after him. The Ftr 14 finally caught up to him....only to be subjected to a full attack, including a REND. Yowch => one dead PC.
Then Kerzit teleported away, cast Heal on himself, and then came back for more. What Ftr 14-caused damage to Kerzit? :O There were more than a few despairing looks around the table after that........
The Clr1/Sor 13 was killed next....but by the herzous that had managed to surround him. Note to Clr1/Sor13: "You will not be able to withstand the full attacks of three herzou. When they surround you, teleport!" To be fair, he had put himself in that position to get off a greater Sonic Blast.....which had not been enough to drop the hezrou.
The PCs had all cast Neutralize Poison on themselves, so Kerzit's bite attack wasn't quite as lethal. But his sawing arm's wounding ability had been doing its job on several PC; the Mnk 14 dropped next. Sorry, but DR 5/magic ain't gonna help, kid. :)
The Rog 14 had managed to finish off the remaining Hezrou, and the Wiz 14 had dropped a Forcecage on Kerzit......when the PCs *finally* caught a lucky break. The Forcecage wasn't the lucky break, BTW. Kerzit knew he could teleport out without a problem, so he took the opportunity to summon some more demons. They would have been the tougher Glabrezu, of course! I'm guessing at least 3 would have shown up. ....and lemme tell ya, with only 3 PC out of the 6 left, that would have been the TPK right there.
Too bad Kerzit rolled a 77%. Result: missed his summoning chance. Awwwwww......
Kerzit teleported out of the cage, and the PCs decided discretion was the better part of valor. The Psi 14 grabbed a few bodies and teleported. Just the Rog 14, the Wiz 14, and Kerzit left in the caverns. The Wiz 14 got ready to teleport....
...of course, it wasn't his turn yet. It was Kerzit's.
Heh. (Insert evil DM laugh)
Kerzit moved around the rogue, to get the Wiz 14 within reach. He provoked an AoO from the rogue, but hey: it's a Rogue! How likely is it that a Rog 14 can even *hit* that high of an AC, much less do anything other than a pathetic amount of damage? (There was no flank, so no sneak attack)
As it turns out: "likely enough". The Rogue hit with his cold iron holy pick (size small!), and did 14 hp of damage. Kerzit only had 12 hp left. Oopps. Sorry Kerzit, no cookie for you.
And that's where we left it. 3 dead PCs, 1 dead Kerzit.