subway rat's page

Hi everyone. I wanted to spread the word about a fun ongoing thread where characters do single encounters. The encounters usually only take 2-4 weeks, and you level up after each one. They are simple self contained stories, and each one has its own flavor. During down time, there's a fun local tavern were characters can meet up, trade items craft, chat, and maybe participate in a Wizard's duel. All those things have happened recently.

We could use more players and GMs. It's a great way for new and experienced GMs alike to try out new concepts without the massive time investment that normally comes. I encourage you to drop by and say hi. My character is Bartholomew Barleygrain, and he'll buy you a drink if you stop by. Here's the link:

Endless Encounters

The question is whether the free action touch attack granted by touch spells can be taken during a move action.

Yes, this is the question, but the answer is no.

Look at the text under the spring attack feat:

Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.

You're trying to say that this rule does not apply because you are making the attack as a free action.

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Still not convinced? Let's take a look at the rule you are quoting. Here's the whole section:

Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

Some combat options are free actions meant to be combined with an attack. Often, these are feats with specific limitations defined within the feat—for example, Cleaving Finish gives you an extra melee attack, but only after you make an attack that drops a foe.

This is a case of a free action meant to be combined with an attack. After all, it is a "touch attack" you are making. So the general rules for attacks must apply, namely that you can't make an attack in the middle of a move action.

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Still not convinced? Consider the Magus:

At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell.

If your interpretation is taken, the a 2nd level magus effectively has spring attack when using spell strike.

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It clearly is allowed. The attack is a free action and thus follows all the rules of free actions. The rules for touch spells explicitly refer to that attack as a free action

It's a free action and attack, so it must follow rules for both. You can't just disregard rules when the action type changes, or you could invoke the clause saying that you can take any number of free actions per turn and make large number of touch attacks because hey, they are free actions, so no other rules apply.

Another legal way to get a cool flaming ally:

Know the spell "detonate".
Have a fire-protected familiar (or tumor familiar).
Use "share spells" to cast detonate onto asbestos laden familiar.
Throw familiar into room full of baddies.
Apologize to familiar for using it as a grenade.

I think the problem here stems from the fact that perception covers seeing and hearing. If you don't like the "magic bonus" explanation, consider this:

If you are in a fog your other senses are probably heightened, since you know your sight is useless. If you hear a twig snap in the fog, you might still fire an arrow toward where you heard the sound. But if you are an on duty guard under a clear sky, and you hear a twig break nearby, you are going to use your eyes and look for the source of the sound. Upon not seeing any enemies, you might perceive that nothing was there.

I agree the system is not perfect, but if you are doing a lot of sneaking through the fog, just pick up some fog-cutting lenses and sneak attack that fool. Or play 3.5.

You're getting hung up on "free action". "Attack" is the limiting factor here, not "free action". If you were trying to yell an insult at the enemy during you move action, that's OK. But you are trying to say that you can make an attack, during a move. And that is clearly not allowed.

Now, if you are targeting an ally, I think you have a case. After all, communal spells require you to touch several allies. But again, making attacks are usually limited.

Now there are still ways to break touch attacks. Just look up chill touch. Add some dazing meta magic, natural attacks, and reach, and you have yourself a nice way to bend that action economy in your favor.

I always use this chart. As long as the archetypes don't replace the same thing, you are good to go. But even one overlap makes it illegal.

An all day summon can be powerful, but let's not forget that this is a level 1 monster. How broken is having an all day dire rat really? And you can't cast this until third level anyway. Burning a first and second level spell for an all day weak monster seems like a fair trade to me.

At higher levels this spell becomes very useful because many monsters come with their own compliment of spells. Let's say you summon a succubus to dominate a person and make them attack their allies. It works but wait, your party is taking damage. Change the succubus to an Azata and start casting cure serious wounds. Then once those are used up pop in a shadow demon and get some shadow evocations spells going. I suppose you could even change it to the exact same creature type as a way to "reset" its once-per-day abilities. Oh yes, the shenanigans that could be had are wonderful.

Summon mount isn't the only spell that could be "altered" in this way. What about Summon Accuser? That one lasts for 10 minutes/level and it's a 4th level spell.

Although...now that I think about it, you could take the Heighten metamagic feat and pump summon mount up as high as you like. Ok, now that seems a bit over powered. "Behold my army of shadow demons!"

Oooo, Ok, how about this: Craft a wand of Heightened summon mount (lvl 4), then get a wand of Alter Summoned Monster. Now cast all 50 charges of the mount wand and create your very own all-day zoo (or 50 giant wasps could be fun too)

Thanks. I probably shouldn't have even put A as an option.

Let's say I have two claw attacks. I cast shocking grasp and move toward my target, holding the charge. He hits me and I take damage. On my next turn I do a full attack. I miss with the first claw and hit with the second. I have two questions:

First, do I have to specify which hand is holding the charge, or is the charge held in my whole body?

Second, when does the spell discharge?
A. When I get hit because since he touches me, I technically also touch him.
B. When I hit him with my second attack. Getting hit does not count. But it doesn't matter what part of my body I strike him with.
C. Depends on which hand the charge was held in. Only the hand that hits can discharge the spell.

I would think it's either B or C. I would prefer it to be B, as tracking hands is weird. But that brings up more questions.

If B is correct:
Now I cast Chilling Touch. Let's say it's CL 5. Does that mean it discharges twice if I hit with both claws?

If C is correct:
Can I chose to cast a spell on my foot and only have it discharge when I kick someone? Some spells say "your hand glows with energy...". Does that mean I can only cast from my hand?

Your insight would be much appreciated.

1. Increase the amount of negative hit points characters can take before dying. Add half of your constitution score per character level. At levels 1-3 you go into a fight, probably one or two members of the party get knocked out. That changes the dynamics and makes you think. Getting back into the fight is merely a healing spell or two away. After level 5 or so, if you are below zero hit points, you are probably dead. The game becomes much more deadly. There is no room for goofy antics or ideas that are "so crazy they just might work". No, at higher levels, it's all about killing everything as quickly and efficiently as possible. Once you roll initiative, it's kill or be killed.

2. Give monsters more Hit points and less damage. A monster that can kill you in one hit is not challenging, it's just plain dangerous. Now I just make cheese characters that only care about AC and damage. Once, I cared about what cool spell-like ability the villain would bring out. I would let him get a hit on me to see what kind of interesting debuff I would have to overcome. No longer! Now I kill on sight. I act swiftly and decisively. I deal as much damage as my cheese build will allow, because if I do not, I will parish. I long for the challenge of learning my opponent's abilities as I fight it and devising a clever way of defeating it. Instead I live in fear, and must focus all my creativity toward new and more potent cheese.

3. Give casters more spells (especially at lower levels). I feel like I never have enough spells when I play a caster. A first level wizard is basically a crossbow user with three whopping spells. Imagine if a barbarian could only swing his axe three times per day. That would be unacceptable. You shouldn't have to wait until level 10 to start having fun. If you're afraid this would unbalance combat, then just give the caster extra spells that can only be used outside of combat, Flavor spells. I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to enhance the story by casting a spell, but I didn't because I didn't want to be useless in combat.

You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities.

I would rule that effects that target the mind (Int, Wis, Cha) go with the mind, and effects that target the body (Str, Dex, Con) stay with the body.

For the situation in the original post I would say that when the caster returns to his body the shrink spell would dismiss because the body is no longer an "object". Just before re-possessing the elf body it would be size fine. If reduce person was allowed (which might not be on a dead body, but that brings up a sticky issue as to whether a body is a person or object, or both or neither) the reduce person would persist if allowed. So the elf would be small in that case.

The tiefling body would be large if it wasn't for the fact that tieflings are not "persons" and can't be enlarged with enlarge person. Any other humanoid would have remained enlarged though.

Likewise, the tiefling would assume the form of a gnome, but I don't think polymorph spells actually change your type. Look up discussions on "polymorph any object" for more on this debate. So even in gnome form, the tiefling could not be the target of enlarge person.

Paragon surge would fail if used in tiefling form because in the spell description it says it turns you into "something greater than elf or human alone". Since you are not a half elf it doesn't work. It would be like if a dwarf wizard tried to cast paragon surge, it just wouldn't work. Paragon surge might be able to worth with a UMD check, but I would have to argue it out for a while before deciding :)

Finally, the dancing lantern would move over to the elf after going back. The description says, "the lantern always acts as if in your possession even when not directly on your person". While you are possessing the tiefling, you are the tiefling, so the lantern follows you. When you go back you are the elf, so the lantern follows you.

On a related note, I used a similar magic jar trick recently to possess my barbarian friend with with a high strength, so I could cast blood money and make a permanent demi-plane for free.

There are plenty of ways to make abominable creatures with a multitude of attacks, but finding new and awesome ways to do it is half the fun of Pathfinder!

StabbittyDoom is correct in the original post. If "multi-weapon fighting" is allowed, the vestigial arms give two additional arms from which to make attacks. Once you have the platform from which to launch the attacks, you may swap out your attack regimen with any other attack regimen you are able to make.

The only reason that vestigial arms rules say they don't grant extra attacks is to keep from granting extra attacks. If they did grant extra attacks, everything would be more powerful. 9/9/9/9/4/4 would turn into 9/9/9/9/4/4/1/1.

But let's keep it in perspective. 9/9/9/9/4/4 is only gained by burning 5 feats.

As the saying goes, ask ten different people, get ten different answers. I argued endlessly with people about rules that seem clear as day to me, and if I've learned anything it's that people WILL have different interpretations.

Not all hope is lost though. We do have a way to clarify meaning in the English language. Lawyers do it all the time. It just takes lots and lots of words. More words than would be appropriate for a user-friendly printed publication.

I would love to see a sanctioned sub-forum where all us rules lawyers could rake new item and feat descriptions over the coals until we have a much less ambiguous working description. It would take the involvement of developers to lay out exactly what they intended the limits of their concept to be, but in the end, I think it would be very beneficial to the community. One of the main problems is that we don't have a final authority on the matter. Once in a while the developers chime in, but more often all of us just argue in circles and never come to any common ground.

Nothing will change until we get a dedicated Paizo rep to make judgement on the Pathfinder Rules Ecosystem.

Has anyone been promoting this thread? It might not hurt to have a little exposure. Is there convention for advertising threads like this on the forums?

Well, you have two people on the waiting list. I'd like to start soon if possible. I don't think there's really a timeframe, although it's supposed to be only one encounter. I guess it could be a long encounter, or a series of encounters with possibly different people kind of like pfs.

Be a dwarf. Take the following feats:

Cleave
Great Cleave
Goblin Cleaver
Orc Hewer
Giant Killer

Then hit everything within your radius of death.

I also like ki throw, the trip feat tree, and the flowing monk archetype. One other fun thing I've done is taking two levels of alchemist to get vestigial arm. Then you can wield a pole arm and a two handed weapon like a dwarven war axe. You can use both weapons with two hands since you can switch the grip of your third hand as a free action.

Toys are one pretty big issue. I'm not sure all his followers could craft enough toys, unless he has vats of marvelous pigment back at the demiplane north pole. Additionally, bags of holding will not be large enough. Is there a way to have a portable portal?

This should probably be in the advice thread.

Other options are Ring of spell storing with expeditious retreat, long arm, or shield cast into it. A cheaper alternative is the cracked vibrant purple prism ioun stone. It is only 2k and holds one first level spell like the ring of spell storing. Another good spell to put on there is true strike. The fighter can used it to get a nearly guaranteed trip. Then enjoy +4 attack until the enemy gets up, provoking an AOO.

You could also enlarge your familiar (if it's small) and reduce the fighter, then have him ride your familiar into battle.

There's also always haste.

If you're Chaotic Evil, you can get a ratling familiar who can cast d-door 3 times per day.

Free 18
roll: 3d6 ⇒ (5, 3, 3) = 11
roll: 3d6 ⇒ (1, 3, 2) = 6
roll: 3d6 ⇒ (3, 6, 1) = 10
roll: 3d6 ⇒ (4, 2, 3) = 9
roll: 3d6 ⇒ (6, 1, 5) = 12

Ratfolk Alchemist for me.

Here's how I see it playing out...

(Wizard casts planar binding)
Wizard: "I call a Shadow Demon to the magic circle."
(shadow demon fails his will save, gets dimensional anchor cast upon him, and fails his charisma check to escape the trap)
Wizard: "Ha! I have you now foul beast! Do what I say for the next 24 hours and then I'll release you."
Shadow Demon: "Your petty cage does not frighted me. I do what I please, and when I am free you will pay for inconveniencing me like this."
Wizard: "We'll see about that." (casts charm monster, shadow demon fails will save)
Shadow Demon: "You know, you're actually a pretty cool guy, whatcha up to?"
Wizard: "Oh, you know, just murdering orcs. Nothing special. Hey, do you want to come with? You could totally possess these orcs while we kill them. It would be hilarious!"
Shadow Demon: "Sure thing man, but I usually charge a fee for helping mortals out like this."
Wizard: "Aw, com'on. Do it for me, your pal. It'll be fun, you'll see."
Shadow Demon: "OK, what the heck. I'll do it. And afterwards, we can have a BBQ at my plane."
Wizard: "Whatever you say, pal." (winks at the rest of the party)

Orc murdering ensues. The shadow demon fears and hurls rocks like a champ. Then some pesky spell caster ruins the day with dispel magic.

Shadow Demon: "What did you do to me? You will pay for this you puny elf!" (casts shadow evocation: fireball...ouch)
Wizard: (casts charm monster, shadow demon fails save)
Shadow Demon: "Please forgive my outburst. I'm just a bit homesick. Lets finish up moping up these orcs and then we can do the BBQ."
Wizard: "Well, we're pretty much done anyway. I deem your service fulfilled." (planar binding is now complete and whisks the delightful shadow demon back to his charming home in the Abyss)

I'd vote for option B.

The planar binding spell traps the outsider on your plane, but not much else. The spell states that you can keep them in the trap as long as you like, and try to persuade them to perform acts of service for you. This is done by making the opposed charisma check. But even then, they won't do something "unreasonable".

On the other hand, charm monster will make them friendly, and if you make the charisma check you can get them to do something unreasonable. If they are charmed and hit by dispel magic, I imagine that creature would still be under obligation to perform the task to be sent home by the spell, but otherwise could act as if he broke out of the circle.

Maybe you could have him wear a magic item that absorbs spells or automatically counters dispel magic. I'm sure there are other safeguards you could put in place. Maybe you could buy a cold iron morning star, break off the head, shrink it, slather it in sovereign glue, and shove it up his nose. Fail safe.

You can absolutely take free and swift actions when nauseated!

It's right here in the core rule book.

Restricted Activity: In some situations, you may be unable to take a full round's worth of actions. In such cases, you are restricted to taking only a single standard action or a single move action (plus free and swift actions as normal). You can't take a full-round action (though you can start or complete a full-round action by using a standard action; see below).

People keep getting bogged down on the word "only". They interpret the word to mean "to the exclusion of all else". But really, the word can designate an upper limit. For example, when your mom said you could only have two cookies, she didn't mean you were disallowed from eating a single cookie, or half a cookie. The word was used as an upper limit. The same is true for this case. You are restricted to not taking more than a single move action (plus free and swift actions as normal).

Of course the nature of free actions taken is still under GM discretion. So, offering to sell a potion to another player while nauseated may be more talking than the GM is willing to allow.

Still not convinced? Look at the text for free actions:

Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

Free actions may be done as part of a move action.

The real issue here is whether the action requires attention, and that is purely a GM decision. But as a rule, being nauseated should not prohibit swift or free actions.

I would have liked to play this scenario, but I didn't really get the chance. I enjoyed about 10 minutes of this scenario with my level 5 wizard, that is until the first encounter. As the obvious caster, I was focused down with a searing light or some such touch spell in two rounds and fell unconscious. By then, the melee fighters of the group had just about finished the cannibals off when the GM called me over to apologize and show me the tactics with death knell to prove he wasn't just being a jerk. That distinction falls to the writer.

How does death knell have a place in a PFS scenario? Is the blatant killing off of a character supposed to add to the fun somehow?

Sorry for the whining. I'm just a bit salty about my unexpected death in the first encounter. As for the rest of the scenario, the remaining players at the table seemed to be having fun, but I wouldn't know.

Does mirror image give a miss chance for a touch spell triggered by Spite?

To clarify, Let's say a witch has a "vampiric touch" tattoo from spite and gets attacked by an enemy with mirror image up. It's not clear if the mirror image is bypassed.

1. Mirror Image is bypassed. The spell states, "Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead."

The Spite spell says, "You do not need to succeed on a touch attack to affect the target, but in all other respects the spell is treated as though you had cast it normally." This seems to indicate that an attack roll is not required, and so mirror image is bypassed.

2. Mirror Image is not bypassed. The spite spell does not negate the need for an attack roll, only the need for it to succeed. The spite-vampiric touch spell may still target one of the mirror images when triggered, and discharge harmlessly.

I have my opinion, but I was hoping for a few people to weigh in. Thanks.

I want to use this spell to make a baddie fall to his death.

The spell has a range of 25ft + 5ft per 2 caster levels.

Let's assume I'm flying. Now, if I successfully cast the spell 25 feet away from the ogre, then fly straight up 100 feet and cast magic missile on myself (not in the same round), will we still switch places?

The spell has already been cast within range, but I am now out of range. Also, there is the clause about the spell failing if it's "a space it could not normally stand within". But then that brings up questions about whether you can even use this spell to get out of a pit of acid.

Your thoughts?

Take 2 levels of alchemist. Get vestigial arm. Wield a reach weapon and another one-handed weapon at the same time. Then you threaten at 5 and 10 feet. As a bonus, you also get mutagen, which is great, and extracts like enlarge person, which will let you threaten out to 20 feet. If you are not doing PFS, you can take the vivisectionist archetype which will give you sneak attack instead of bombs.

You could choose not to attune yourself to it. "You are automatically considered attuned" That is, the rules are assuming you would attune yourself. This phrasing is not perfectly clear but seems to assume that you would want to attune yourself instead of dying. It's annoying that they didn't give each symbol it's own rules. Instead you have to try to apply rules from a harmful spell onto a beneficial spell.

The way I play my symbols of mirroring is that no one is attuned. I give each one a secret command word as the only way to activate it, then put the symbol on a banner attached to my weapon. Then at any time I can just yell the command word as a standard action and poof, everyone has a mirror image (including the baddies). It still is invaluable in combat and has saved my party several times.

It seems like Tom knows what he is doing. I think you are right on. Frank, on the other hand...

If he is some kind of naturally 4-armed creature, then he probably gets 4 attacks to mix and match in the way you described. But if he is a regular humanoid with 2 arms like most playable races, he will have to get his two extra arms with the vestigial arm alchemist discovery. If that is the case, then it gets a little complicated. The main idea is that extra arms from the vestigial arm discovery don't give you any more attacks than you already have. They just give you another way to deliver those attacks.

Frank is a 3rd level alchemist (earliest you can get two vestigial arms) with a stabby thing in each of his 4 hands, he can:
stab you twice (with any two of his stabby things) OR
stab you, kick you OR
kick you twice

Now he drops two stabby things, he can:
stab you twice (once each with his two stabbies) OR
stab you, kick you OR
kick you twice OR
punch you, stab you OR
punch you, kick you OR
punch you twice

Notice how he still can only attack twice. Once he gets a high enough BAB, he could get one more attack in, using any of those options.

At 4th level Frank decides to get the Feral Mutagen discovery. Now he has two claws and a bite. These are additional attacks and stack with his two main attacks. He is not holding any weapons. He can use his hands as either claws or fists. He can now make 5 attacks with the following combinations:
kick, kick, bite, claw, claw OR
punch, kick, bite, claw, claw OR
punch, punch, bite, claw, claw OR
punch, punch, kick, claw, claw OR
punch, punch, kick, kick, bite OR
punch, punch, kick, kick, claw

Note that any time he uses weapon or unarmed attacks with natural attacks, all the natural attacks count as secondary attacks even if they normally would be primary.

Frank is now holding two stabby things with his non-clawed hands. Any time he attacks with manufactured weapons and natural weapons, his natural attacks all become secondary attacks. Also, he can swap out any type of attack with any other type of attack, as long as he only uses each "limb" once since these are not "iterative" attacks:
kick, kick, bite, claw, claw OR
stab, kick, bite, claw, claw OR
stab, stab, bite, claw, claw OR
stab, stab, kick, kick, bite OR
stab, stab, kick, bite, claw OR
stab, stab, kick, claw, claw

Notice that he can not do more than 5 attacks.

Now Frank holds a stabby thing in each of his 4 hands:
stab, stab, stab, stab, bite OR
stab, stab, stab, stab, kick OR
stab, stab, stab, kick, kick OR
stab, stab, stab, kick, bite OR
stab, stab, kick, kick, bite

Note that only one stab is primary, all the others are off hand attacks and take the appropriate penalty, and the bite is a secondary attack.

Frank's buddy George is a 1st level Tiefling with two claw attacks. These are two extra attacks for a total of 4 attacks. He can:
claw, claw, kick, kick OR
claw, punch, kick, kick OR
punch, punch, kick, kick OR
grab two stabby things and
stab, stab, kick, kick

George doesn't like to kick, so he gets two vestigial arms, but he still only gets 4 attacks. Now he can:
claw, claw, punch, punch

At 4th level George takes feral mutagen. That adds another 3 attacks for a total of 7 attacks. In addition to doing everything Frank can do with feral mutagen and two vestigial arms, George can:
bite, claw, claw, claw, claw (and waste two attacks. These are all primary natural attacks so there are no penalties.)
OR
bite, claw, claw, claw, claw, kick, kick (but all natural attacks become secondary attacks)

George is not satisfied. He wants MOAR natural attacks! At 5th level he gets the parasitic twin discovery. He also gets a ring of rat fangs for the extra bite attack it gives (or he could have been tengu). Now when he drinks his feral mutagen he applies the claws to his vestigial arms and the bite to his other face. He has 8 total attacks. He can:
bite, claw, claw, bite, claw, claw

Still not satisfied, he gets the tentacle discovery at 6th level. This does not grant an extra attack, so it's a good thing he had two unused attacks just laying around. It is also a secondary attack, but it has grab, so that's cool. He can:
bite, claw, claw, bite, claw, claw, tentacle

MOAR! At 7th level George takes a level of witch to get a prehensile hair secondary attack. Now he can:
bite, claw, claw, bite, claw, claw, tentacle, hair

At this point, Georges GM says he is no longer welcome at the table and calls him "cheese". Mean ol' GM.

Wait, what about wielding two great swords? Well, the consensus seems to be that you need a primary hand to wield a two-handed weapon, so since all your extra hands are off hands, you probably can not wield two two-handed weapons, or for that matter, two bows.

For more info, and to see the progression of thought on these subjects check out these posts:
two-weapon fighting
vestigial arm debate Pay attention to the discussion between Sean K. Raynolds and Nefreet.
attacks are interchangeable This is page 6 of the same discussion.