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So with the Remaster the Ranger already progresses its spellcasting, roughly at the same time as a spellchecking dedication, in addition the remaster made all spellcasting dcs progress at the same rate regardless of your tradition. So even if the Ranger didn't innately progress its spellcasting dc's you could just pick up a primal spellcasting dedication(although that would be counter intuitive with the whole religion flavor going on, but thankfully you don't have to worry about that since the Ranger warden spell dcs progress just fine)

i'm hoping to see more class archetypes

I really like the chassis of the Runesmith; my current rune options, some feats that feel like they should be subclasses, and a lot of emphasis on shields for a class who want a free hand, however, are all pain points.

Fully expecting the usual post-playtest shot in the arm to make this one something really special, though! I've never liked your typical d20 spell slots at all (they've given me headaches for over a decade), so Runesmith and Kineticist offering magical fantasies without using those subsystems makes me really happy.

We feel similarly about the painpoints you mentioned. I do wish we got a couple of more runes in the playtest itself but I am sure they have plenty of interesting ideas cookimg.

Given that the Thralls have repeatedly been described as temporary I'm sure that can play into their power budget. And so I don't see an animal companion comparison to be likely. Besides we already have a handful of options to play undead minion animal companion style.

I think we are at a state where we are going to see more and more things for old classes. War of immortal and Divine Mysteries introduced several new class archetypes and class options that were ultimately received fairly well. There are concerns and criticisms, but the idea of actually using class archetypes was received fairly well I'd say. And if Battlecry and Impossible!(Just calling it that for now) Are sort of a matching pais one being a big martial book and the other being a big magic book, then I think those are prime examples to introduce more feats, subclasses, and class archetypes based on upping the magic or martial capabilities of various classes, or changing them in other ways. And

I can see either Impossible War, or maybe something like Impossible Magic, that like maybe updates magic lore and stuff post remaster.

I'm going to be honest, I like the day to day flexibility of the Animist... Because I think it's cool, I think it's a cool fantasy. If it can work functionally in the party and deliver on the fantasy that I can interact with and adjust what spirits I connect with on a thematic narratively level than I am happy. And it seems to be able to do that.

This has been one of my favorite books. I think the lore is truly inspired and by the Animist and Exemplar seem really fun to play.

Yeah Golems were already changed and I do recall them hiring a sensitivity reader/consultant for things such as Nephelllim. Now it's ok to disagree with them making the choice but the choice wasn't done haphazardly or without consideration, and as you said no group is a monolith so it makes sense that there are people like yourself who will disagree with it.

Yeah Covenants don't really read to me as absent of figures. You are still getting power from other beings, just like way more of them collectively together. Which is a design and flavor space I like.... But I'm not quite sure it will fit or is intended to fit the space of "cleric/champion of an idea." Heck some Dieties are even a part of Covenants.

The only casualties so far that I don't quite understand how they happened is the fight between ** spoiler omitted **

Some interesting implications with that. I hope we can find out more in Divine Mysteries!

Am I the only one that thinks a lot of these God V God fights indicated seem very ... random? I can't see what a lot of them would be fighting over in the first place.

A question for Divine Mysteries, perhaps.

From what I have read from the book, 3 major things are happening.

1) Gorums death has caused three potential resources to fall across the Universe. This mainly is what mortals are dealing with but I imagine a lot of the deities themselves are either doing it gain power or prevent others more dangerous foes from gaining power.

2) Gorums death is causing a bunch of supernatural things to occur, mixing with or activating ancient relics. pre-existing phenomenon etc. Gods go to investigate these things, discover something or try to take advantage of said thing and others come to fight them. Sometimes while they are not directly opposed to each other, the nature of their solutions leads to them disagreeing and unable to settle things they fight for what they believe to be right.

3) From my understanding there appears to be both the natural reaction to stress causing people to behave more aggressive or irrationally, but there may also be a supernatural element to it. An enhanced desire or willingness to fight/battle. Cooler heads are not prevailing in these times as one might say.

I'm not exactly sure what the solution is. I don't mind it too much.(not that I don't disagree with the people who do, I think it is stronger than most other options just not in a way that matters too much in the grand scheme of things. But then again I am antithetical to the whole idea of "strong options pressure players thing."( i think it has more to do with play culture rather than the rules simply existing.)

But maybe we took the que from Thaumaturge as mentioned and give the Ikon but require a later feat to really benefit from it? , but maybe Exemplar dedication could also give Humble Strikes?(I feel like that would be roughly equivalent to stuff like Monk or Martial Artist dedication)

I would argue the reason it seems like a lot is because Dieties avatar form are listed with the deities and not the cleric class page. I don't think it's actually taken up all that space. Would it be cool, sure I guess but I'm not sure it's really needed.

I would like to talk about my cousin Alexis from the Puerto Rican side of my family. She passed away a couple of days a go but she was an amazing woman. Fierce as she was kind. She leaves behind two wonderful kids. She is a pioneer to me because she always gave me space to be myself and was always very supportive. She always invited me to community events, ones that I was always to nervous and afraid to attend on the account of that I feared my transness would be an issue. She is gone now and I won't get a chance to experience those events with her any more. But I thank her for being a pioneer by actively trying to include me and others.

So In honor or her, happy Hispanic Heritage Month. May we all try to make sure there is space for those on the outskirts and invite them in to celebrate.

I doubt Imp will be a lineage.. but if they did do it, it would be extremely funny and quite wonderful if it makes you small sized(or maybe one size smaller) regardless of ancestry. You are just a small fiendish version of your ancestry.

I guess I'm kind of surprised by just how much people care about levels/CR and keeping them as some sort of true to canon as opposed to like a basis for rules to exist so that you can play a game. Like for me if a creature can still provide the appropriate narrative weight and can be a challenge.. do those exact numbers really matter from a story or gameplay angle?

Prince Setehrael wrote:

Oh I am so excited.

And as far as Mythic Destinies revealed:
Archfiend
Apocalypse Rider
Ascended Celestial
Eternal Legend
Prophesied Monarch
Gosling

That's 6 out of 9 in War of Immortals and there is the Mortal Herald in Divine Mysteries next month.

It is a lovely day in the War of Immortals, and you are a horrible goose. :P

Mythic awakened goose.

I think the important thing to consider... Is that if a GM is bringing mythic into the game, especially with the way this blog describes it.. they should be ok with players having an impact on the world.

Mythic very much seems like the kind of thing that you know the gm will have to bring in after deciding if it fits the story and campaign they want to tell. It is in fact a system that lets players have a greater impact on the world and is designed to be that.

Any other issues appear to be just, "hey talk to your players to make sure nobody is gonna be a jerk to each other." Which like seems like something that should happen with any kind of variant rule like this.

I think it would be neat to have a Coutal lineage perhaps

I mean you treat the Golomas unique premise as a downside? I think an ancestry that generally seems otherworldly or terrifying but also feels the same way about most other ancestries is an interesting premise. It asks the question "what is normal?" and has interesting things to say about internal biases and stuff.

Shisks are a bit more complicated. I think they are an interesting case of trying to come up with a fantasy ancestry without a basis. Humanoids with quills and hollow bones and a unique tradition focus on knowledge isn't any more out there than humans with pointy ears, long lives and are particularly graceful, or humans that are short and stout stubborn and live underground. The difference is that those second two examples have more history to base on them... but thats only because of time itself. New things will always have less basis because they are will new. They can still be worth it. (If Shisks are based on something than my apologies)

I think the point trying to be made, isn't that pcs don't have spare clothings but that there is not a mechanical incentive to do so built in to the game, because the developers have decided that level of detail does not add to the game. With the exception being specific style of clothing to deal with weather or social situations. Cantrips like prestidigitation even exist to give an out to those who do not want to keep that level of detail on their sheet without making the reality of the situation be that they are constantly wearing tattered unclean clothing.

Hmm my understanding of Nahoas characterization seems to be humbleness despite the opportunity to be arrogant.

The story starts with him being considerate and mindful of his elders, and trying to find the best bath for everyone and it ends with him being humble enough to ask about something he is unfamiliar with it.

The moments where he embraces his powers, he seems to feel a mix of awe and surprise. The idea that things could be *that easy* are a novelty to him it seems. But he is keeping his humility still. At least that's how it reads to me.

I'd say it's a good metaphorical use of the name.

When you and the new headmate have different ideas on how to handle a situation.

I'm excited for this. I like the choice of use miniatures, it feels charming.

I think the likelihood of Secrets of Magic getting reworked highly depends on what its stock looks like. I feel if its close to needing a reprinting then we will see it then but if it looks like that won't be happening anytime soon then...

I could also see a new book that comes out, like people said that maybe remasters the current remaining four classes, puts in new lore about magic, maybe adds a bunch of spells and/orc some exciting class archetypes for magical themed classes. Or even more of a long shot 1 or 2 new magical classes

I'll be honest I'm not sure what the theming for that would be the. The new book they announced with the schools sounds it like would have been perfect to do something like this.

Some potential ideas.

- A book that explores magic in an as of yet unexplored(or under-explored) region of the world, such as Arcadia. Much like how Treasure Guides narrative surrounded characters from Tian Xia before we got Tian Xia.

- Perhaps a book that weaves a narrative that connects or references various high powered magical lore characters (rune lords, old Mage Jatembe, baba yaga, Jao jin, etc)

-Maybe a book on Nethys or some massive church of Nethys, perhaps studying the effects of the Godsrain on magic in the world. (To be honest, I think this or the first one would have tons of potential. With maybe this idea edging out because Paizo loves its narrative synergy(with understandable reasons)

edit: Fey eidolons do also interact with the old schools of magic, although this is alleviated a bit by the fact that the illusion tag still exists and that is one of the schools it interacts with.

Reading these comments and others out there over the years, it really does feel like "dammed if you do, dammed if you don't" when you are a creator. The past week I've seen people say, "Paizo needs to stop making classes and focusing on what they already have," but also see "these class archetypes should have been full on classes." I think sticking to what feels right and what inspires the creators and supplementing that with data and feedback from structured things like polls is the only way to really go about things without getting overwhelmed.

Now don't get me wrong sharing opinions or thoughts is fine, especially when done respectfully. I know we certainly have in the past about wanting Bloodrager as a class, but we are excited to see what the creatives do with this class archetype version. It does feel inspired and just enough like the base barbarian to be a part of it while being it's own thing. Never gonna appease everyone, so you have to be proud on your work on your own and ask, "did I feel good doing this."

We also wanna say, we are super excited to see these types of class archetypes to be expanded on. Spellshot and runelords were neat but a bit miss for us aesthetically personally but we did enjoy what they did for the classes. But these recent suite of class archetypes feel like they are really testing exploring the potential of the concept and it reminds me of what I felt like pf2e was missing. There was a special feeling in pf1e archetypes that we felt were missing in the more broadly applicable archetypes.(Even if we do like those as well and think they are over all a net positive to the system.)

keftiu, I don't know why, but you are exactly the person I would expect to know things about Dragon Age. XD

One thing I want to say: Across this thread and elsewhere, I've seen a few iterations today of, "This story's version of the Inquisition is different, because the heretics really are evil in-universe." I really think that take misses a step. It's not 100% wrong, but it sort of nags at me.

When a setting like Warhammer Fantasy declares, "well, actually, the bigotry is kind of justified in-universe because witches are canonically bad news", that's a choice the authors made. Not to bully WHF (I'm simplifying its lore to make a broader point), but the authors in that instance are choosing to transfer a real-world atrocity--in that case, organized religious witch hunts--and concoct a setting in which the atrocity is justified.

Warhammer in general plays a lot with the idea of "diagetically-kind-of-justified atrocities". You know, lots of "no, but these enemies really are pure evil savage teeming hordes, so it's cool to genocide them". In-universe, that's a correct statement, but out-of-universe, people might be excused for asking "why did you want to write that? Might a story like that encourage a certain worldview?"

I like Warhammer Fantasy. Not here to condemn it today. It's just a useful example, because it's pretty gleefully unsubtle.

When you create a setting in which a church is justified in rooting out evildoers, and you call that practice an inquisition, you're choosing to tell the story of a "just" Inquisition. That's a choice you made, not an inescapable truth of neutral worldbuilding. I'm not saying that's good or bad--it's kind of messy and really depends on you knowing what you're trying to say--but it's definitely no less fraught than any of the other examples we're discussing here.

EDIT: There's a really common trope in fantasy and sci-fi stories of the "willing servant race". When handled badly, these stories tend to inadvertently recycle a lot of vile...

Can I just add with that edit, I think thats one of the reasons I really like the Kobold change. Making kobold eggs magic sponges that can benefit from a powerful artifact or leader makes the dynamic a much more beneficial and clear dynamic, with a in built reason for Kobolds to leave a particularly bad leader as well.

But yeah I am in agreement with you, there are certain types of stories that irk me the wrong way. Or if I enjoy a piece of media with in it, i'm kind of enjoying it in spite of it not because of it.

pixierose wrote:

Kobold Catgirl wrote:

the thaumaturge is so good though aaah that's heartbreaking! We clearly need more thaumaturge content. We need to revive its image. We need to bring back the thaumaturge iconic, and bring them back hotter, sexier, more covered in insane paraphernalia.

I for 1 support this agenda!!!

cover them in candles! there aren't enough candles!

I maybe just be playing too much WoW, but this just made me think of the current Kobold questlines they have out now.So many cool Candle mogs.... Now I need Candle armor in pathfinder... hmm.

the thaumaturge is so good though aaah that's heartbreaking! We clearly need more thaumaturge content. We need to revive its image. We need to bring back the thaumaturge iconic, and bring them back hotter, sexier, more covered in insane paraphernalia.

I for 1 support this agenda!!!

I am super excited for this version of Bloodragers. While I always would have loved the magical sorcerer hybrids... I think something like that would have deserved its own class. This archetype I think expands the concepts of barbarians and gives them a really flavorful magic option that comes directly from a fun lore concept!

I really like the sound of the Avenger and Vindicator, and I will be curious as to how they eventually play out. It's great to see old friends.

This is so good, there is so much passion and love for the types of folk hero stories that clearly inspired it. It's fantastic.

When commander comes out we are totally gonna play a Tanuki Commander... but think less commander and more Team Mascot. Gonna say inspiring things to allies and cheer them on and call out their special attacks in excitement.

Another idea we have is a born from Celestial Yaoguai who is either a champion or Exemplar with the spirit warrior archetype...(maybe also soulforger eventually?) With almost no memory of their past life they were pretty much a wanderer but eventually fell into a group of Tsukiyo worshippers who helped them be content with who they are now, even if they don't have their memories.

Oh we adored this.There was something so so so lovely about this. Samo is wonderful.

We are going to end up making so many Animist( and like at least half of them will probably end up being plural)

Ohhh that would be super cool!!!

I really love the narrative behind this book and I think they chose a fantastic set of schools.

We are also on the spectrum as well as several people near and dear to us. I think having autistic rep among the iconics would be super cool, as well as just in general in the game.

I would also push back on the idea that autism is more formative than other aspects of one self. For some it might be but for others other aspects might be more so or simply equally as formative. Even more so the way those things intersect with one another can be quite significant.

I think we see things very differently. Or perhaps I am just reading assumptions in what you are saying and If so I do apologize. But backgrounds... how you came to be and what you are are ultimately pretty important aspects of a character and how they view the world.

That being said, I feel like that type of interaction between ancestries that are authethically simillar to animals and there relations to awakened animals would be more likely to be written in a lost omens book. The larger rulebooks tend to have to keep this fairly broad. Especially if let's say you have the space and you talk about Vanaras and monkeys you might have people ask why there wasnt room for cat folk and cats, or rat folk and rats and lizardfolk and the various reptiles they tend to be associated with despite the name just being lizard. Idk if just seems like something you would want to include in a place where you can go in depth into the culture of those ancestries and not let's say awakened animals themselves.

1) Awakened Animal gives rules to create pretty much any type of animal.

2) There is a very different flavor between "Species that is its own thing, with history, culture and etc" compared to "Actual animal critter given sentience due to a unique occurrence."

One thing to point out, just because you(or anyone really) might have some issues with the design of pf2e I don't think it means it's time for an edition change. Between starfinder 2e being built on the same engine, the Remaster, the ORC, and the fact that the community is quite alive and well it would be a rather poor timing to start working or releasing a pf3e.

That aside some of the things you find issue with are some of the things other people like about the game. Dedications by design are weaker then the class that they are based on because paizo and the community overall does not want a fighter with wizard dedication to be a better fighter or vice versa of any other class combo.

While I can see the argument for removing stats, your desire or feeling like you have to Minmax has more to do with how rpg and gaming communities have evolved imo then any one game. There are people who sometimes play with a 16 in there core stat or play with a an odd stat combination. I once played a goblin inventor who had 14 In charisma because i wanted her to have the hag bloodline, magic she was actively resisting and wishing to choose technology over said magic. She worked out just fine and was quite an effective support character.

I mean it was already in place since the core rulebook with thief rogue, and the Chirurgeon kind of. They have used it sparingly since then, and I trust Paizo to continue to only apply it in specific circumstances.

We tend to think of the Swashbuckler as a pretty fun class to play, but we also tend to play it differently from the "meta" so to speak. We like to stay in Panache untill an opportune time to spend a finisher(the enemy is debuffed,or I'm buffed or both, or there is a weaker minion near by, or I'm risking it all to try and finish them off). There are a couple of cool feats that involve staying in Panache, and the +1 is useful especially for someone like a gymnast especially when combined with that one higher level feat that let's you roll twice. Sure maybe getting the most damage is by using finishers as quick as possible but... that leads to the struggle of regaining panache. If tour fighting a boss, the passive damage from doing more attacks might catch up, especially if you are trying to use actions to regain your panache and failing.

Also remembering the explict rule that the gm can grant panache for doing cool and stylish things also helps add to the fun of swashbuckler.

That being said, people clearly think the former way is better. I wouldnt complain about more buffs to staying in panache though, or a rework.

I feel like if we were to change finishers, making you lose panache on a failure feels wrong. It doubles down on the failure. I feel like keeping your panache should sort of be the consolation prize for missing.

Con could make sense and I would be for it, but the Guardian as described makes me feel like it might want to be in heavy armor so I could also see it being exclusively strength to(help make sure you can easily get the boosts you need to wear heavy armor as soon as possible)

Slayer didn't have a super strong class identity, and its mechanics are similar to both rogues(now that they have martial weapon proficiency) and rangers with their hunt prey mechanic.

From my understanding it wasn't that there won't be anymore, they just don't feel beholden to recreate every single class from 1e. I believe it depends on finding the right context for said classes and if the developers have an interesting idea for them they'll make it. Meanwhile if there are new interesting ideas thise will also be made depending on if they find the right books to introduce them.

I really hope none of the Mythic Destinies involve becoming more like a non-mythic creature that already exists. Since if we're roughly mapping them to the 9 outer planes that used to correspond to alignment, making one of them like "the Lich destiny" is no use to evil characters that have no particular interest in being undead.

I strongly prefer that we focus more on "things that people would actually tell legends about" (like "apocalypse rider" and "eternal legend") and less on things like "Jim from Magnimar became a Lich" since Jim could do that without being Mythic.

I agree with this. Let other options/mechanics do the heavy lifting when it comes to specific creatures and stuff.

Tsukiyo is one of our favorites.

I hope Gorum goes down fighting.
It seems fitting, but also because I would love to play a Gorumite whose faith does not waver.

"My god died doing what he expects us all to do. I feel his presence in every swing of my blade, in every blow I block. And in the heat in every second of every battle. Gorum is dead. May he live forever."

Tbh that could be the most fun we've had with coming up for a worshipper of Gorum.