Beltias Kreun

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Saashaa wrote:
As for 'multitalented', I think that it would be redundant in this game.

The only reason I consider it is because my character will be light on rogue talents as an Eldritch Scoundrel, and a few more just to cover utilities wouldn't hurt. Elves get 1/6th an Arcana as a FCB, and humans 1/6th of a Talent, so half-elves could get both. Elves could get a +1 fighter FCB to CMD to resist disarm and sunder attempts, but I don't know if the feat buy-in would be helpful in surviving the GM's challenges.

gryfalcon wrote:

That's already possible in the race builder:

Start with human (9)
Switch stats from human to flexible (+2), That covers 2/6 stats.
Now take Advanced for the other 4 (4*4=+16)

...so an Azlanti human would be 27 RP. An Azlantified halfelf would be 28 RP.

Thank you, that's perfect!


I have some questions about a custom Half-elf of Azlanti descent:

Assuming the FCB starts with the primary class of the tristalt, does multitalented allow the FCB of a second class? Would the feat that allows the FCB of all classes apply to the tristalt?

Humans of Azlanti descent have a +2 to all stats, according to some splat books. Could that be applied to a Half-elf, and if so what sort of cost would it have in the Custom Race builder?


I am interested.

My Staff Master Magus/Eldritch Scoundrel U. Rogue/Child of A&A Fighter was needing a little more oomph in the feats department. A free Archetype would do me nicely.

Edit Question: What's your stance on Traits?


It is that time for University Finals. I'm in some myself, but it is hard to draft things without some sort of blip on the radar

Character's name is Jake Klatt, a first generation half-elf of Azlant descent. Born into a time before Half-Elves were a common oddity, and sired by two very insular cultures, Jak learned to carve his own way through life with spear, shield, and spell. As a worshipper of Acavna and Amaznen, he blended the arcane with martial finesse and sly guile to better provide for himself on his mostly isolated journey towards his fated day

His Calling to the Rose and Bee started as a rumour, mere hear-say; a place where everyone was equally welcomed, and welcomed as equals. As he wandered from town to town, stealing the odd trinket or spell along the way, his search for this rumored tavern elevated from idle thought to a genuine past-time, and he found himself on an epic tavern crawl across the known world.

His Ascension into the Mythic was surviving Earthfall; specifically, by out running the ensuing cataclysm and throwing himself through a door that should have led him nowhere, considering that was the only wall of the building left standing. But the door was adorned with a bee resting upon a rose, and with a cheery and warm light eminating through the door's windows...well, if it was a delusion in the face of eminent demise, there were worse ways to die. At least he'd be running into the doom and getting his death over with.

If the DM does come back online, I'll whip together an actual build for Jak.


I've been drafting a Half-Elf Skirnir Magus(+Black Blade upon approval)/Eldritch Scoundrel U. Rogue/Child of A&A Fighter, but I might shift the archetypes a bit. Overall theme is focused on being the best Arcane Trickster; going with Archmage Mythic Path for all my spell lists, and the Dual Path Mythic Feat into Trickster for more flavor. The Subtle Magic Path Ability from Trickster let's my character bluff to hide spell casting. Skirnir Magus, Unhindering Shield/Shielded Mage, and Equipment Trick(Thieves Tools) would allow him to pick locks from a distance while sword and board are in hand. And with the Jacket Training Trait, the Eldritch Armor Training feature, and a set of mock armor, he can pass himself off as a meat headed simpleton before ghosting, use evasion and such in medium armor, and run magical chicanery for days.

His background would be pre-Earthfall; a half elf, half Azlanti bastard that grew up in the last days of Xin's rule over Thassilon. His Ascension, and probably even his Calling, would be derived from surviving Earthfall. I've rolled him up as being Middle-aged, so that way there might be a sneaky old man in the group, but I'm gonna need a minute to flesh out his background beyond vague concept.


Sorry for the double posting, I've some more questions:

1). Are we allowed to take traits?

2). Can a Magus take both the Bladebound and Skirnir Archetypes? Bladebound diminishes the Arcane Pool while the weapon gains a small one, and Skirnir allows the use of the Arcane Pool to buff a shield, so there might be conflict.


How would the Multitalented trait of Half-Elves work in Tristalt? Since you're gaining multiple classes per level, would that give you the Favored Class Bonuses of two classes at once? And if the character took Multitalented Mastery, would that give them the FCB of their third class?


I would be interested in some play by post.

Tristalt... that's a lot of dakka. Definitely thinking of plugging in Arcane Trickster somewhere into the mix, but I'm not sure how that works or which class could take the prestige class.

Option #1: Magus(something something)/U.Rogue(Eldritch Scoundrel)/Fighter(Child of Acavna and Amaznen)

A classic Fighter/Mage/Thief, with all the cantrips and whistles. The fighter archetype grants reduced spell failure for a round as swift action, which allows the rogue archetype to cast in armor as well. The character wouldn't get many bonus fighter feats, and his sneak attack and rogue talents would be halved. But all three are Intelligence based casters; Rogue would get Wizard spells up to the 6th level, and Fighter would get Bloodrager spells at Ranger progression, but with full caster level. Arcane Trickster might fit onto the Rogue, and a dip or few into Eldritch Knight for the Fighter would return some feats at the expense of spell progression, which is nitpicking considering the three spell lists this character would have.

If this is unappealing, I can whip up an alternative.


Sorry for dredging this up, but I think I can explain why this is PFS banned.

I don't think it's entirely the initial benefit of the Divine Fighting Style. Not to say it's not powerful in its own right, +Cha Mod to Attack and Damage is big. But the Advanced Version, which is unlocked when all prerequisites are met, is just too powerful at level 11. Two basic ranged feats and 11 skill points grants you the ability to "Let Desna take the Wheel," so to speak; as a full-round action, you roll a 1d4 to determine how many of the blades of your starknife hit at once. That's one to four attacks, all made with your highest BaB. You have a 75% change of mantainig the action economy of a full-attack, and a 25% chance of attacking as only a level 20 full BaB class can.

That, plus Cha to attack and damage? Waaaay too much action economy effeciency for PFS GM to balance a game around. And in the hands of a class with precision damage, that adds their precision damage to each strike of the attack, it's an insane nova that can deliver two rounds worth of sneak attack damage in one attack. That can really trivialize climatic encounters, which is what those level 11 charactes have been working their way towards.

EDIT: A /scenario limit for the advanced Fighting Style might make it more tolerable for PFS play. Altering the odds and payouts for the number of strikes might help too, and justify a /day limit.


Honestly, I feel like pathfinder could do with some better language for rolls. With tabletop gaming, you can't have a computer run all the die rolls for you. You need to make the die rolls efficient so as to not to take too much time and bog down combat, and the easier the rolls are to name and say, the more natural it becomes. Roll to X, or Check your {skill}, that sort of thing. The game and it's terms can be confusing, and is supposed to be simplified (for the player) through rolls. Having easy names for these rolls is key.

to Hit: Attack roll
to Hurt: Damage roll
to Resist: Will save
to Endure: Fortitude save
to Dodge: Reflex save
to Cast: Concentration check
to Crit: Crit Confirm roll

Mine on the left, current on the right. I also like Defense Class over Armor Class, but I know it could potentially be mistaken for Difficulty Class. Thanks for your time.


What if you use the magus Arcana that allow him to use maneuvers using his magus level instead of at his BaB? Trip, disarm, and grapple...with a sentient, indestructible scarf? The only thing that could be better if the scarf was snarky.

Post Note: Not to mention the stealing and teleportation abilities. This really sounds like a fun concept. This is why I like tabletop gaming- there are always fun character concepts.


Surprise Spells clearly says any spell that deals damage to a flat footed character, so a tough spell delivered through a free melee attack is applicable, spell combat penalties applicable. The melee attack, if the target lacks or is denied its Dex Bonus, qualifies for Sneak attack damage. Also consider Impromptu Sneak Attack: twice per day, it doesn't matter what immunities the target possesses; the Arcane Trickster can give themselves the capacity to attempt the roll with their bonuses, so even if they can't deliver the normal precision damage they can choose to deliver it through a spell. I think it's all rather fair.

I'd like to think that Surprise Spells would be better worded as the ability to choose to deliver sneak attack die as extra spell damage die instead, so long as the attack meets the requirements (so, feint, flank, invisible or greater with a magic weapon with Light Generation that cannot be concealed when drawn to draw threat, and/or be declared to meet through their Impromptu, and other sneaky moves) to deliver sneak attack damage.

Two sneak attack die per strike is a little too much. A knife master rogue delivers sneak attack die at d8's with knives. 7d8 is four shy of 10d6, and too easily abused if delivered twice per hit- it's certainly enough to keep pace at per-hit anyway, and is already there through crits. Rolling your sneak attack damage four times on a crit is ridiculous.


Step Up and/or Following Step would help alleviate the engagement method's flaws by making the repositioning less painful and more natural. Withdraw methods would still be a bear, but if they're withdrawing you might now want to follow blindly. Gang Up makes the invisible flanker's task easier, as he just has to help an ongoing flank to get flanking bonuses, which might also eliminate the need for Step Up. A weapon with Light Generation (see Magic Weapons) can't be concealed when drawn, which would maintain the character's invisibility but inform enemies of your continued presence for flanking purposes.


Greater Invisibility Allows for striking without losing invisibility, so that's a higher-level alternative that works to reinforce the concept. It would be like Bilbo Baggins taunting the spiders along. Maybe.

Maybe if you make the presence of your weapon known? Like if it glows, so there's a glow where the blade would be. Would that be enough to give presence for flanking?


DM_Blake wrote:

Yes.

And Players B & C don't even need to be flanking for this to work; they only need to be threatening.

It could look like this:

.

A
BD
C

Where B & C are simply threatening D, then A, with his Gang Up feat, can get the benefits of flanking and, using invisibility, he can add that bonus too while denying the enemy his DEX bonus against A's attack.

Too bad Death from Above only works with charges; Gang Up takes advantage of flight's wonkiness with flanking, and a +5 to hit is sick. Rhino Charge could Ready the ability for next turn, but that burns a standard action for a hit every other turn. So...maybe? It's more a strength build thing anyhow, with Power attack and all.

Moonlight Stalker feats are designed for attacking from concealment, which can be useful. Outflank is also nice.

A Rogue 3/Magus 4/Arcane Trickster 10 has a Base Attack Bonus of 10. Is there a way to boost the to hit rolls high enough to justify the build? Damage wise, I don't think there's an issue; AT's capstone lets you convert Sneak attack die into spell damage, meaning it'll multiply in Spellstrike's crit range and bypasses sneak attack defenses. 22d6 damage at level 17 is a fine start before you start multiplying, so the problem becomes landing the blows, insuring the critical hits are successful, overcoming spell resistance, and being smart enough to avoid getting swarmed in a fight.


blahpers wrote:
While it might seem weird that you can get a flanking bonus from a creature the defender isn't even aware of, you can in fact do so, even if the invisible flanker never attacks (but still threatens) the defender and never reveals herself.

Ok, so under that logic:

Player A has the Gang Up Feat and is invisible. If he approaches enemy D, flanked by players B and C. Does he get both invisibility and flanking bonuses to his attack rolls, while denying the target his Dex bonus?


Nefreet wrote:
Tiny-sized creature don't threaten adjacent squares.

Hm...small size familiar then. If it's possible. This was was a random thought tangent that I thought would benefit a character that needs a constant flanking partner. Invisible familiar seems like a safer method of deployment.


Nefreet wrote:
Is "B" tiny-sized?

Not sure, I assume that flankers must be medium sized to impart bonuses? Does it matter with the invisibility?


I pose this question:

Suppose we have character A and his familiar B. Let's suppose they flank enemy C together.

If B is Invisible, and A knows where B is, do the bonuses from Flanking and Invisibility stack together for A's Hit Roll?


DeathlessOne wrote:

The way I'd solve the perceived problem is thus:

For each character class a character possesses, they may add 1/2 of their other class levels (rounded down) to their existing class level, to determine their effective class level when qualifying for feats, class abilities or other such effects. This includes, but is not limited to, rogue talents, rage powers, caster level, oracle revelations, etc. This does not grant the character any additional abilities or spellcasting that would have been achieved had the character remained a single class (ie, no new spells known, spells per day, new rogue talents, new revelations, etc).

I haven't played enough Pathfinder to justify adding ten effective levels to a character by level 20. I just thought that it's kinda silly to have abilities that didn't do anything effective.

williamoak wrote:

-Would a ranger's animal companion continue growth? Would archetype abilities like freeboter's quarry continue to scale?

-Would a barbarian's rage duration continue to grow?

The animal companion would grow, as would the rage durations. These are the skills these characters have picked up, and it's not like they're being put on a shelf and left to gather dust.

williamoak wrote:

There are a few concerns on defining it:

1) How do you define "qualifying" classes?

2) Which abilities would qualify?
Would it be mainly "+X per Y class levels" powers?

3) What about vaguely related abilities?

1). If the Prestige needs only one class, then it'll only count toward one class. Also, the Clause doesn't cover spellcasting improvement; it just continues to boost class abilities. So that is still a restriction of sorts.

2) Yeah, but I did put (EX) and (SU) powers. You can't twist Uncanny Dodge into it's improved version, but generally if the improvements are all listed as one ability, then it's safe to say it will be affected. A Ranger will continue to get his favored enemies, But a Magus cannot go from Spell Combat to Improved Spell Combat

3). In your case, Favored Enemy is a Ranger Class ability, and so is your Combanion The beastie continues to improve, as would a familiar.

If you do get a chance to test it, I'd be thankful for the input. Thanks for your questions!

Righty_ wrote:

Its a stretch but in later editions I would recommend the equivalent of monastic training for other classes.

However my arcane trickster is not a magus or rogue. Its an effective pathfinder society character with skills, magic, combat, minor healing, survivability, and stealth. When it runs into an unknown group of 5 others I rarely have any issues.

I'd like to get a snapshot if I could. I'd like to see what kind of BaB you're reaching so I'd know the goal for effective combat. Are you using Empowered Truestrike for +30?


Kolokotroni wrote:
The problem is not all classes are like that. Some classes directly build on a single class. A duelist for instance, can build directly on a single class fighter, giving him abilities that work with his fighter abilities.

This actually works well under the Clause. Let's feel out a Weapon Master Fighter 10/Duelist 10 - those archetypes seem to blend well. At Tenth Level, a Weapon Master Fighter has:

1). Weapon Guard for Bravery. +1 to CMD against disarm and sunder with chosen weapon, +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd (+3 at level 10)

2). Weapon Training for Armor Training. +1 to Hit and Damage rolls, +1 for every four levels beyond third (+2 at Level 10)

3). Reliable Strike for (Old) Weapon Training 1. Reroll an attack, crit confirm, damage, or miss chance roll as an Immediate action 1/day for every 5 levels (2 uses at level 10)

4). Mirror Move for (Old) Weapon Training 2. Gain an insight bonus to AC equal to Weapon Training Bonus when attacked by chosen weapon (+2 at level 10)

These abilities aren't bad; stacks with the Duelist abilities fairly well, but are capped to level 10.

Now, once more, the Prestige Supplement Clause: Levels in a Prestige Class stack with the Class(es) that qualifies the character for the Prestige Class, to determine the effects of (Su) or (Ex) Class Abilities he or she already possesses. Spells per day remains unaffected. You cannot stack Prestige class levels.

A Weapon Master Fighter alone can qualify a character for the Duelist Prestige. By the Clause, taking Duelist as a Weapon Master will continue to progress the four abilities you've acquired so far:

1). Weapon Guard. +5 Against Disarm and Sunder at level 18

2). Weapon Training. +5 to Hit and Damage rolls at Level 19

3). Reliable Strike. 4/Day at level 20

4). Mirror Move. +5 Insight AC Bonus vs chosen Weapon

Now you're cooking with some fire (since you're a duelist, you'll probably be facing the same weapon more often than not). Choose your flavor of dueling, and go to town.

Class/Prestige, Base/Class/Prestige - the Clause addresses both build types. Multiclasses that Prestige aren't as powerful as their full-bodied counterparts, but aren't going to be completely incompetent when it comes to the task, and make up for it with a specialized skillset. On the other hand, you have the Class/Prestige that trades out their later skills but enjoys the full power of the skills he's started with, and can build upon them with a good choice of prestige.

Post Note: The language did need a bit of polish. Changed 'Classes' to 'Class(es)' to note that you don't need multiple classes to take advantage of the Clause. Will write as such from here on.


Good Afternoon. Zephyo here!

The whole idea behind multiclassing and taking a prestige class is to create a fun character with an concept that is better than the sum of it's parts. However, the system is very punishing for people who chose to specialize their character, and assumes that characters don't bother to keep practicing what they've already acquired

For example, with a Magus 6/ Rogue 4/ Arcane Trickster 10, the character caps his Arcane Pool at 3+ Int and can only enchant his weapon to +2, and his Trapfinding bonus caps at 2, and his Trap Sense is a paltry 1. These skills, essential to the core of their classes mechanisms, are entirely crippled. And to reference, a Magus 20 has an Arcane Pool of 10 + Int and can grant a +5 enhancement bonus, and a Rogue 20 maintains a Trapfinding bonus of +10 and a Trap Sense of +6. Clearly, the multiclass will never keep up; they just aren't designed to support the abilities they acquire.

Thus my idea, the Prestige Supplement Clause: Levels in a Prestige Class stack with the Classes that qualify the character for the Prestige to determine the effects of (Su) or (Ex) Class Abilities he or she already possesses. Spells per day remains unaffected. You cannot stack Prestige class levels.

Prestige Classes always have Requirements. The Arcane Trickster, for example, requires the character to be: nonlawful; possess Ranks in key skills; be able to cast any 2nd Level spell along with Mage Hand; and Sneak Attack with at least 2d6 die. A Magus 4/Rogue 3 can meet all of these requirements, so when the first level in Arcane Trickster is taken, the abilities this character has already learned will continue to grow as they are designed to do so.

So, the Magus 6/Rogue 4/Arcane Trickster 10 from before had his class abilities limited to levels 6 and 4, respectively. But now, for the purpose of his acquired class abilities, he is a Magus 16/Rogue 14:

|+| The Arcane Trickster's Arcane Pool is now a healthy 8 +Int Mod. He can expend a pool point to give his weapon a +4 Enhancement Bonus, or spend some of the bonus on weapon enchantments.

|+| His Trapfinding, on the other hand, is now a hearty +7 bonus, and his Trap Sense is a +4. Not full Rogue, but pretty classy all in all.

I feel that this Clause lets multiclassing characters keep pace with their fuller progression variants, as well as keeping Archetypes open and appealing to those looking to zest their characters further. And the way it is written, it works just as well for a character with two base classes as it does one. To conclude, it seems ridiculous that multiclass heroes stop practicing the skills they've already acquired once they've decided to attempt something new. Thanks for your time!