Why is Way of the Shooting star banned?


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Silver Crusade

it's just one of those things that doesn't make any sense to me.

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What's that? Can't find it in any Paizo book or Archives of Nethys...


It's a divine fighting technique from Divine Anthology. The initial benefit gives Charisma to attack and damage with a starknife instead of str or dex

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Huh. Usually those have the deity's name in their names. How bizarre. ^_^

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In any case, what do you mean by "banned"?


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I suspect it’s Desna’s Divine Fighting Technique, the one that grants +Cha to attack and damage with a starknife for just one feat at 1st level?

Not allowing it in PFS doesn’t make sense? Really? Would you like it if every Cha-based caster was a Desna worshipper? All paladins are Desnan vengeful bastards?

That feat is sooo good that many many many other options would never get a second glance. Pass.

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Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
it's just one of those things that doesn't make any sense to me.

It doesn't have to.

Silver Crusade

ohako wrote:

I suspect it’s Desna’s Divine Fighting Technique, the one that grants +Cha to attack and damage with a starknife for just one feat at 1st level?

Not allowing it in PFS doesn’t make sense? Really? Would you like it if every Cha-based caster was a Desna worshipper? All paladins are Desnan vengeful bastards?

That feat is sooo good that many many many other options would never get a second glance. Pass.

But it would also limit you to 1 weapon that has low base damage, has some of the worst reduction fighting type in the game (piercing)that not everyone can use and is incredibly limited in practical applications.

So yes very strong, but not strong enough to be banned. All it would really do is give Cha casters, Bards and eldritch scions an option for when the spells run out.

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Malik Gyan Daumantas wrote:
ohako wrote:

I suspect it’s Desna’s Divine Fighting Technique, the one that grants +Cha to attack and damage with a starknife for just one feat at 1st level?

Not allowing it in PFS doesn’t make sense? Really? Would you like it if every Cha-based caster was a Desna worshipper? All paladins are Desnan vengeful bastards?

That feat is sooo good that many many many other options would never get a second glance. Pass.

But it would also limit you to 1 weapon that has low base damage, has some of the worst reduction fighting type in the game (piercing)that not everyone can use and is incredibly limited in practical applications.

So yes very strong, but not strong enough to be banned. All it would really do is give Cha casters, Bards and eldritch scions an option for when the spells run out.

Making Paladins and Oracles dependant on a single stat is more than enough reason for a ban in their eyes I'd bet.

Plus as TOZ mentioned, it doesn't have to make sense. They've decided that substituting charisma for both your attack and damage stats isn't something they want in OP and we don't really need the reasoning since we have to abide by it anyways.

Edit: Just realized this is in general discussion and not the PFS forum. Flagged so it can be relocated.


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Kalindlara wrote:
Huh. Usually those have the deity's name in their names. How bizarre. ^_^

It isn't bizarre. The actual name in the book is "Desna's Shooting Star". d20PFSRD isn't allowed to use proper names of gods (or other Golarian names), so it changes many things. In this case, it became "Way of the Shooting Star".

Some requirements (such as worshiping a specific deity) may be left out because of this. It is one of the reasons d20PFSRD isn't a good source for official material.

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Jeraa wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Huh. Usually those have the deity's name in their names. How bizarre. ^_^
It isn't bizarre. The actual name is "Desna's Shooting Star". d20PFSRD isn't allowed to use proper names of gods (or other Golarian names), so it changes many things. In this case, it became "Way of the Shooting Star".

Me thinks there might have been a smiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidge of snark in her response.


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Rysky wrote:
Jeraa wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Huh. Usually those have the deity's name in their names. How bizarre. ^_^
It isn't bizarre. The actual name is "Desna's Shooting Star". d20PFSRD isn't allowed to use proper names of gods (or other Golarian names), so it changes many things. In this case, it became "Way of the Shooting Star".
Me thinks there might have been a smiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidge of snark in her response.

I did just notice the face at the end. Anyway, for those that don't know, that is the explanation why some things have their name changed and may be hard to find.

Shadow Lodge ***** ⦵⦵

Base damage is pretty irrelevant. The system is all about the +s.

anyone can pick up proficiency in the star knife and bladed scarf for a trait. Its free fo a warpriest or cleric dip dip (warpriest would also fix the base damage problem, much as its a problem)

It monostats thrown weaponry/ranged combat. Having to split the stats is a huge deal Having to have it would be the only thrown weapon (not that they're very good mind you)

It combines melee/ranged into one weapon, which is really powerful.


On the other hand, throwing weapons are really not very good compared to melee or archery...unless you're a fighter or the GM is very generous about dem Blinkback belts. Still, I suppose it can lead to a degree of SADness beyond just spellcasting, which is sometimes a no-no in PFS.

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Jeraa wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Me thinks there might have been a smiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiidge of snark in her response.
I did just notice the face at the end. Anyway, for those that don't know, that is the explanation why some things have their name changed and may be hard to find.

Look, I have to amuse myself somehow. ^_^


It's banned in PFS:

Quote:
The divine fighting techniques, exploits, masterpieces, paladin codes and oaths, rogue talents, subdomains, and variant spellcasting in this book are legal for play except Desna's Shooting Star, Hymn of Restorative Harmonics, Oath of the People's Council, Norgorber's Silent Shiv (advanced technique only—initial benefit is legal), and Obfuscated Spellcasting.

It's also banned in my game, as there isn't any Desna and there aren't any starknives. But your GM might feel differently.

I also have problems with "using your charisma to strike more accurately and do more damage"... like how does that make sense?

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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I also have problems with "using your charisma to strike more accurately and do more damage"... like how does that make sense?

I always assumed it works the same way as the various oracle revelations that let you use your Charisma to dodge. ^_^

(Or for a less obviously supernatural example, the same way Noble Scion [War] lets you use your Charisma to act more quickly in fights.)


Kalindlara wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I also have problems with "using your charisma to strike more accurately and do more damage"... like how does that make sense?

I always assumed it works the same way as the various oracle revelations that let you use your Charisma to dodge. ^_^

(Or for a less obviously supernatural example, the same way Noble Scion [War] lets you use your Charisma to act more quickly in fights.)

The Oracle revelations are pretty much magical, and magic can do all sorts of fun things. But Desna's Shooting Star works in an anti-magic field just fine.

Noble Scion I figured mostly works via "Charisma = Confidence" in that a child of privilege believes the world exists to cater to them, so obviously they're not going to wait to react to other people who are beneath them, best to speak out and let everybody else react to you.

I don't know how being really confident makes you hit harder, maybe you will aim better; I will buy that, but hit harder?

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To be fair, I'd also think pretty hard about having it shut down in an anti-magic field. I mean, it immediately stops working if you stop worshiping Desna. ^_^


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To be fair, I'm also generally opposed to things that allow you to hit really hard with mundane weapons despite being a noodly armed weakling with a 7 strength.

So Desna's Shooting Star doesn't sit well with me the same way that Slashing Grace doesn't. I strongly prefer effects that add scaling static boosts to damage if you use non-STR to hit and STR to deal damage (e.g. Trained Grace, Lethal Grace, Shifter's Edge, etc.) All of your iconic wiry athletic swordspeople from fiction are in that STR 12-14 range anyway.

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That's valid. It's a reasonably elegant design, and one they've been pretty open to expanding upon lately. ^_^

Liberty's Edge

Gotta say, I do love those more recent grace abilities, for much the same reasoning as Cabbage.

As for the flavour of Shooting Star, I generally saw it as a will-controlled attack, though that loses a lot of functionality at melee range. It can be very fun to determine, though - I enjoyed roleplaying the Lore Oracle's Sidestep Secret, willing projectiles away and finding attacks blocked by books in the character's pockets.


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ohako wrote:

Not allowing it in PFS doesn’t make sense? Really? Would you like it if every Cha-based caster was a Desna worshipper? All paladins are Desnan vengeful bastards?

That feat is sooo good that many many many other options would never get a second glance. Pass.

What class is it actually good on?

Swashbuckler wants a high threat range weapon.
Paladin can't stack Smite's attack roll bonus on top of it.
Skald wouldn't gain the Inspired Rage bonus on it.
Eldritch Scion Magus wants a high threat range weapon.
Sacred Fist Monk needs 5 feats to make it work.
The only Cha-Cleric archetype demands a different deity.
Bards and Oracles often want a reach weapon.

Yes, it's nice on a Wyrm Singer Skald or Archaeologist Bard, but I don't really see those warping the game (action economy is a thing). It's even useful for a thrown build, but those suck enough already.

Yes, Oracles can get Charisma to Init, AC, Reflex save, attack roll, and damage roll. Yeah, that looks impressive... but what is the real gain? You're two to three feats down, have to use a low damage weapon without reach, and are locked into a mystery with no support for a martial playstyle. You really don't have the feats for thrown, so you have to walk into melee. You have a low damage weapon (can't TWF because of dex prereq), no power attack, and no class features apart from spells to boost your accuracy or damage.

Dex to damage is highly sought after because Dex already does so many good things for free. Sure, with Con it would be ridiculously OP. With Wis, it would be very strong, probably even with Int. But Charisma is everyone's favourite dump stat for a reason: Because it almost grant's nothing.*
Seriously, one stat to attack and damage is already possible with low investment - and you can use weapons with higher base damage, easy two-handing, and other stuff like reach!
The only-one-stat thing is ok for strength because it only really affects a few skills. Hey look, that's true for Charisma as well - wow, almost as if the writer put some thought into this!

It's important to remember that we aren't talking about Cha-to-attack-and-damage with any weapon, but with a light non-reach weapon with low damage and crappy crit stats. In the end, we're trading weapon stats for a few Skill Focuses.

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Derklord wrote:
ohako wrote:

Not allowing it in PFS doesn’t make sense? Really? Would you like it if every Cha-based caster was a Desna worshipper? All paladins are Desnan vengeful bastards?

That feat is sooo good that many many many other options would never get a second glance. Pass.

What class is it actually good on?

Swashbuckler wants a high threat range weapon.
Paladin can't stack Smite's attack roll bonus on top of it.
Skald wouldn't gain the Inspired Rage bonus on it.
Eldritch Scion Magus wants a high threat range weapon.
Sacred Fist Monk needs 5 feats to make it work.
The only Cha-Cleric archetype demands a different deity.
Bards and Oracles often want a reach weapon.

Yes, it's nice on a Wyrm Singer Skald or Archaeologist Bard, but I don't really see those warping the game (action economy is a thing). It's even useful for a thrown build, but those suck enough already.

Yes, Oracles can get Charisma to Init, AC, Reflex save, attack roll, and damage roll. Yeah, that looks impressive... but what is the real gain? You're two to three feats down, have to use a low damage weapon without reach, and are locked into a mystery with no support for a martial playstyle. You really don't have the feats for thrown, so you have to walk into melee. You have a low damage weapon (can't TWF because of dex prereq), no power attack, and no class features apart from spells to boost your accuracy or damage.

Dex to damage is highly sought after because Dex already does so many good things for free. Sure, with Con it would be ridiculously OP. With Wis, it would be very strong, probably even with Int. But Charisma is everyone's favourite dump stat for a reason: Because it almost grant's nothing.*
Seriously, one stat to attack and damage is already possible with low investment - and you can use weapons with higher base damage, easy two-handing, and other stuff like reach!
The only-one-stat thing is ok for strength because it only really affects a few skills. Hey look, that's true for Charisma as...

This is pretty much My argument, Unless You're a Class that uses Charisma to a high degree like Swashbucklers, Bards and Sorcerers.

Charisma Does Almost Nothing for Most characters in the game

And in that sense why ban something that at most would give bards and swashbucklers a good toy to use since they are likely the only ones who would be pumping charisma and would be using a weapon.

I suppose there's no point griping about it, it just feels rather pointless to me.


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PFS has a reputation for restricting martial options like this. In that context it makes perfect sense.


I think it's pretty apparent why PFS bans it.

It's a single feat that does something that typically takes either two feats or a combination of a feat and a class ability: changing the normal to-hit/damage modifiers from Strength to something else.

Compare it to Dervish Dance, which is also restricted to a single specific weapon. Dervish Dance provides Dexterity to damage with a scimitar, but you must already have Weapon Finesse for Dexterity to-hit before selecting Dervish Dance feat.

Additionally, Desna's Shooting Star doesn't have the caveat that there must be a hand free, so this is a quick, single feat that allows Cha to-hit and damage and isn't restricted from someone wanting to TWF.

It's banned because it does more than any comparable feat.


The other thing that Desna's Shooting Star is guilty of, is that it does a lot more than all the other divine fighting techniques.

Going down the list, ignoring the advanced ability-

Abadar: Can attempt a steal maneuver with a crossbow
Asmodeus: Sicken on a critical threat with a mace.
Calistria: Can apply poison to a whip as a move action.
Cayden: Treat a tankard as a light mace, & drink from it or attempt a dirty trick in place of an attack.
Desna: Use your charisma bonus to attack and damage rolls in place of STR/DEX.
Erastil: Standard action, distract a creature by shooting it, giving +2 to the AC of one ally adjacent to it.
Gorum: Can Vital Strike with a Greatsword after a charge, can vital strike on first AoO.
Iomedae: Full round action, give allies +2 sacred bonus to attacks, saves, & skill checks for 1-5 rounds.
Irori: Take a -2 penalty to hit to deal average damage.
Lamashtu: Standard action, deal StrMod as bleed damage with kukri or falchion
Norgorber: Deal damage as if 1 size category larger with first attack with light/1H weapon vs. opponent unaware of you.
Rovagug: Deal nonlethal damage on a successful dirty trick, debuff charisma on a really successful dirty trick
Sarenrae: Do nonlethal damage with a scimitar, or with good/light/fire spells.
Torag: Combat Reflexes, but based on Wisdom not Dexterity.
Urgathoa: Gain temporary HP when you hit with a scythe, 1+WisMod times/day.
Zon-Kuthon: When you hit someone with a spiked chain, you can sicken you and the target, target is sickened more unless they save.

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

The other thing that Desna's Shooting Star is guilty of, is that it does a lot more than all the other divine fighting techniques.

Going down the list, ignoring the advanced ability-

Abadar: Can attempt a steal maneuver with a crossbow
Asmodeus: Sicken on a critical threat with a mace.
Calistria: Can apply poison to a whip as a move action.
Cayden: Treat a tankard as a light mace, & drink from it or attempt a dirty trick in place of an attack.
Desna: Use your charisma bonus to attack and damage rolls in place of STR/DEX.
Erastil: Standard action, distract a creature by shooting it, giving +2 to the AC of one ally adjacent to it.
Gorum: Can Vital Strike with a Greatsword after a charge, can vital strike on first AoO.
Iomedae: Full round action, give allies +2 sacred bonus to attacks, saves, & skill checks for 1-5 rounds.
Irori: Take a -2 penalty to hit to deal average damage.
Lamashtu: Standard action, deal StrMod as bleed damage with kukri or falchion
Norgorber: Deal damage as if 1 size category larger with first attack with light/1H weapon vs. opponent unaware of you.
Rovagug: Deal nonlethal damage on a successful dirty trick, debuff charisma on a really successful dirty trick
Sarenrae: Do nonlethal damage with a scimitar, or with good/light/fire spells.
Torag: Combat Reflexes, but based on Wisdom not Dexterity.
Urgathoa: Gain temporary HP when you hit with a scythe, 1+WisMod times/day.
Zon-Kuthon: When you hit someone with a spiked chain, you can sicken you and the target, target is sickened more unless they save.

Ok that I didn't quite think about, that actually makes sense.


Saldiven wrote:
Compare it to Dervish Dance, which is also restricted to a single specific weapon.

Lets...

Saldiven wrote:
Dervish Dance provides Dexterity to damage with a scimitar, but you must already have Weapon Finesse for Dexterity to-hit before selecting Dervish Dance feat.

You are using a physical stat to hit and damage that also by default adds to AC and ref saves. So it's not a comparable stat. While it's true lots of abilities can add cha to things, those are opportunity costs taken instead of other things.

You are using a set weapon with both: 1d6/18-20/x2 vs 1d4/x3. I think it's clear which is better...

Saldiven wrote:
Additionally, Desna's Shooting Star doesn't have the caveat that there must be a hand free, so this is a quick, single feat that allows Cha to-hit and damage and isn't restricted from someone wanting to TWF.

You overlooked the Dex requirement on TWF... [15/17/19] You want nifty dual weapons you have to max out 2 stats, so it'd be no different that the feat requiring one stat to hit and the other for damage.

Saldiven wrote:
It's banned because it does more than any comparable feat.

As limited as it is, it's not out of bounds. Requiring a much lower damage/crit weapon [and one uncommon enough that you're unlikely to find one in an adventure] and not having a natural compatibility with TWF, I'm not surprised it gives more.

PossibleCabbage: I'll agree most divine fighting techniques are unexciting but I could say that about ANY category of feats. However several give more than the average feat

Gorum: This technique is pretty good and one of the ways to make an effective vital strike build. Fits the bill for 'does more than other feats' and 'allows you to do something you can't do otherwise'.

Calistria's: grants poison use, quicker application AND the ability to poison on combat maneuvers without damaging. If you're poison is your thing, it's pretty sweet.

Cayden Cailean: Drinking a potion in place of an attack isn't bad. This mixes well with a group with a druid that takes herbalism, allowing them to buff with their free potion in place of the offhand attack. This even works with preloaded one handed ranged weapons [drink, fire weapon, drop mug to reload].

Iomedae: 30' sacred bonus on attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks... There are worse things to spend a full round action on.

Rovagug: If you're in a game where dirty trick is usable reliably, it's darn good. Blinded, dazzled, deafened, entangled, shaken, or sickened AND nonlethal damage equal to 1d6 + your Charisma modifier.

Sarenrae: this is at least 2 feats worth here, allowing nonlethal for both weapon and spells. Niche but very useful in that niche.

Torag: Wis based Combat Reflexes AND flatfooted AoO. Better benefits than the base feat and allows AoO/reach builds without a dex investment, especially with the ability to flatfooted AoO.


There's a great deal that can be consolidated to charisma.

If you're a paladin, you're getting your charisma to attack and damage, double your charisma to attack if you're smiting, charisma to all saves, charisma for spellcasting, with Noble Scion, you get it to initiative, several ways to make it your AC, the quickest being a one-level Oracle or Monk dip (or both) on top of your smite AC bonus, meaning up to triple your charisma to AC, then add it to HP by becoming some sort of undead, preferably against your will.

So much consolidating to be done.

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Omnius wrote:

There's a great deal that can be consolidated to charisma.

If you're a paladin, you're getting your charisma to attack and damage, double your charisma to attack if you're smiting, charisma to all saves, charisma for spellcasting, with Noble Scion, you get it to initiative, several ways to make it your AC, the quickest being a one-level Oracle or Monk dip (or both) on top of your smite AC bonus, meaning up to triple your charisma to AC, then add it to HP by becoming some sort of undead, preferably against your will.

So much consolidating to be done.

You actually don't get double charisma to attack and damage while smiting as they're both an untyped bonus equal to your Charisma mod which means they don't stack as per the FAQ on adding the same attribute to something multiple times.


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I do think that there's a general problem with how the problem of "Charisma isn't useful" has been addressed. Since if you keep allowing people to substitute their charisma modifier on mutually unrelated things, you eventually hit critical mass and create something unreasonable.

Like a Paladin 2/Water Dancer 6 with Noble Scion and Osyluth's Guile adds Charisma to saves, Charisma to Initiative, and Charisma three times (once as an untyped bonus, once as a dodge bonus, and again as another dodge bonus (dodge bonuses stack) when fighting defensively) to their AC. Slap on the Ghost template to that as an NPC, and they now get Charisma to their AC (this time as a deflection bonus) a fourth time, and also as a HP bonus. A few levels of devoted muse will let you add a third dodge bonus equal to the minimum of your devoted muse level and your charisma mod.

Maybe instead of "adding the full charisma mod to things" it would have been better to find some other ways to make it useful.


Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Omnius wrote:

There's a great deal that can be consolidated to charisma.

If you're a paladin, you're getting your charisma to attack and damage, double your charisma to attack if you're smiting, charisma to all saves, charisma for spellcasting, with Noble Scion, you get it to initiative, several ways to make it your AC, the quickest being a one-level Oracle or Monk dip (or both) on top of your smite AC bonus, meaning up to triple your charisma to AC, then add it to HP by becoming some sort of undead, preferably against your will.

So much consolidating to be done.

You actually don't get double charisma to attack and damage while smiting as they're both an untyped bonus equal to your Charisma mod which means they don't stack as per the FAQ on adding the same attribute to something multiple times.

And you're not tripling your AC either for the same reason...

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Omnius wrote:

There's a great deal that can be consolidated to charisma.

If you're a paladin, you're getting your charisma to attack and damage, double your charisma to attack if you're smiting, charisma to all saves, charisma for spellcasting, with Noble Scion, you get it to initiative, several ways to make it your AC, the quickest being a one-level Oracle or Monk dip (or both) on top of your smite AC bonus, meaning up to triple your charisma to AC, then add it to HP by becoming some sort of undead, preferably against your will.

So much consolidating to be done.

Paladins in PFS can't take this feat since they need to be worship a deity only one step away from LG.

And you don't add double your CHA to attacks if it did work and you were smiting, you can only add a stat once to something unless it specifically says it stacks, thus it removes a nice perk of smiting.
Same with AC, you can't get tripple cha that way. If you have monk and oracle you'd only get cha to AC and no dex to AC.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
I do think that there's a general problem with how the problem of "Charisma isn't useful" has been addressed.

Yes, on both sides of the argument. Each feat taken, ability picked or dip used has an opportunity cost. That paladin multiclass had lower BAB and to hits from monk BAB and fighting defensively, don't have smite stack with Cha to hit, loses use of armor proficiencies, ect...

Anti-cha seem to always push the pro's and ignore the con's... "adding the full charisma mod to things" in and of itself isn't an issue: Taking it removes other options you'd normally pick... That paladin doesn't have power attack or other basic combat feat, as he's used every feat on Cha... And hope you NEVER see ability drain/damage to cha.

I think a lot of people on the anti-cha side are more bothered by it 'not making sense' than 'it's bad/wrong/fun' on the mechanical side. SAD is nice but you have to throw a LOT of options into make it happen. In the end, is that Paladin 2/Water Dancer 6 superior to a paladin 8? Not IMO, as the paladin 8 is much more likely to actual kill something as opposed to merely just having great defense.


I actually statted up that Ghostly Water Dancer/Paladin to be an NPC that stands in the way of the party, and is someone they *could* fight, but probably don't want to, and after they get tired of swinging ineffectually at the thing with a sky-high touch AC and massive saves, they'll still be in okay shape since that cold blast is pretty accurate but doesn't do much damage.

So I do kind of like that you can make something that has a touch AC in the 50s at level 8, that's not that much of a threat to the party. I look forward to using that.


there are many thing pfs bans that don't make sense, there are also a lot of things that pfs dis likes and then has the devs swing a nerf bat at all the things they don't like instead of just house ruling the stuff in their own games wreaking it for all the non pfs people


Chess Pwn wrote:
Paladins in PFS can't take this feat since they need to be worship a deity only one step away from LG.

I keep getting Desna and Shelyn mixed up in my head.

Yes, you are right, but I stand by my point; it's easy to pile a ton of stuff on charisma, and adding an easy route to putting attack and damage on charisma gets real silly real fast.


Would Way of the Shooting Star/Desna's Shooting Star be considered not overpowered if it only substituted Charisma for Dexterity/Strength on attack rolls and not on damage rolls? In this case, it would still be useful for when you want to hurl a Starknife, if you have high Charisma and Strength but not high Dexterity, and no Belt of Mighty Hurling.


UnArcaneElection wrote:

Would Way of the Shooting Star/Desna's Shooting Star be considered not overpowered if it only substituted Charisma for Dexterity/Strength on attack rolls and not on damage rolls? In this case, it would still be useful for when you want to hurl a Starknife, if you have high Charisma and Strength but not high Dexterity, and no Belt of Mighty Hurling.

you would probably have to add in one or two more weapon types that would be effected by it then since its probably the damage part that people are looking for


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Like a Paladin 2/Water Dancer 6 with Noble Scion and Osyluth's Guile adds Charisma to saves, Charisma to Initiative, and Charisma three times (once as an untyped bonus, once as a dodge bonus, and again as another dodge bonus (dodge bonuses stack) when fighting defensively) to their AC.

Were do you get the untyped bonus from? Iroran paladin would only be +2, not full Cha. Also, it requires retraining to get Osyluth Guile at 8th level.

Also, I don't see any martial prowess on that character, with or without DSS. No Flurry, 1d4 weapon, medium BAB, defensive fighting malus. No attack or damage roll bonuses (except maybe a low bonus from Smite/Personal Trial once per day), no bonus feats. Also, feinting or other methods to deny dex-to-AC remove most of the AC. Oh, and Osyluth Guile only works against one enemy, and only in melee.

Saldiven wrote:
It's a single feat that does something that typically takes either two feats or a combination of a feat and a class ability: changing the normal to-hit/damage modifiers from Strength to something else.

That is not a logical reasoning but a fallacy of composition ("easy dex-to-damage is too strong, therefore easy stat-to-damage access must always be too strong").

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

To be fair, I'm also generally opposed to things that allow you to hit really hard with mundane weapons despite being a noodly armed weakling with a 7 strength.

So Desna's Shooting Star doesn't sit well with me the same way that Slashing Grace doesn't. I strongly prefer effects that add scaling static boosts to damage if you use non-STR to hit and STR to deal damage (e.g. Trained Grace, Lethal Grace, Shifter's Edge, etc.) All of your iconic wiry athletic swordspeople from fiction are in that STR 12-14 range anyway.

Dex to damage at least makes actual realistic sense, though. In our complete abstraction of HPs, dex to damage represents being able to more finely target weaker spots, thinner armor areas, etc.


The King In Yellow wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

To be fair, I'm also generally opposed to things that allow you to hit really hard with mundane weapons despite being a noodly armed weakling with a 7 strength.

So Desna's Shooting Star doesn't sit well with me the same way that Slashing Grace doesn't. I strongly prefer effects that add scaling static boosts to damage if you use non-STR to hit and STR to deal damage (e.g. Trained Grace, Lethal Grace, Shifter's Edge, etc.) All of your iconic wiry athletic swordspeople from fiction are in that STR 12-14 range anyway.

Dex to damage at least makes actual realistic sense, though. In our complete abstraction of HPs, dex to damage represents being able to more finely target weaker spots, thinner armor areas, etc.

CHA to damage, this case of this feat, makes sense if you conceptualize it as weaponizing Desna's portfolio over luck. Basically, since you worship the Goddess of Luck and are venerating her extra hard by focusing on using her kinda-subpar holy weapon, she's rewarding you by allowing those "1-in-a-million" chances to hurt an enemy who should by all rights be more skilled than you tilt more and more in your favor.


Derklord wrote:
Were do you get the untyped bonus from? Iroran paladin would only be +2, not full Cha.

Water dancer says "He uses his Charisma score instead of his Wisdom score to determine the size of his ki pool and the DC and effects of monk class features." which is means that the monk's AC Bonus class feature now keys off of Charisma, like the Scaled Fist, instead of Wisdom.

This might be an oversight, that will be changed with errata since the class already has a built-in "CHA to AC" as a dodge bonus.


Sorry for dredging this up, but I think I can explain why this is PFS banned.

I don't think it's entirely the initial benefit of the Divine Fighting Style. Not to say it's not powerful in its own right, +Cha Mod to Attack and Damage is big. But the Advanced Version, which is unlocked when all prerequisites are met, is just too powerful at level 11. Two basic ranged feats and 11 skill points grants you the ability to "Let Desna take the Wheel," so to speak; as a full-round action, you roll a 1d4 to determine how many of the blades of your starknife hit at once. That's one to four attacks, all made with your highest BaB. You have a 75% change of mantainig the action economy of a full-attack, and a 25% chance of attacking as only a level 20 full BaB class can.

That, plus Cha to attack and damage? Waaaay too much action economy effeciency for PFS GM to balance a game around. And in the hands of a class with precision damage, that adds their precision damage to each strike of the attack, it's an insane nova that can deliver two rounds worth of sneak attack damage in one attack. That can really trivialize climatic encounters, which is what those level 11 charactes have been working their way towards.

EDIT: A /scenario limit for the advanced Fighting Style might make it more tolerable for PFS play. Altering the odds and payouts for the number of strikes might help too, and justify a /day limit.

Sovereign Court

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If the advanced benefit were the problem, it would probably have been legalized in the same manner as Norgorber's Silent Shiv (from the same source).

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