Wind Chime's page

I think because of the limit having inteligence as a primary stat imposes some sort of situation buff too accuracy is appropriate.

I think my favourite way to achieve that would be something like this

Compensating

There is no such thing as failure in invention only learning opportunities.

One Action
Pre-Requisite: Your last action was a missed Strike

Make another Strike using the same multiple attack penalty as for the missed Strike, if any.

I would like to see one or a couple of feats that support armor unarmed combat, something like a level 1 piston punch feat that gives you a d8 forceful, shoving unarmed attack.

So there have been a lot of talk about flight on the summoner playtest and took this discussion of there to avoid cluttering it with more of the same.

So generally I don't think most people are opposed to late flight for game balance reason, most people can see the logic of why flight should be a late game ability me included.

But the eidolon aesthetic both in the art work in the playtest document and the recommended description of both the Angel and Dragon eidolon mentions wings being the norm so a lot of people are going to default to having winged ediolon at the level 1.

So I feel this is a problem because appearance in my opinion tend inform expectation and there are going to be feel that because they have wings they should be able to fly and will shocked to find out that they are not going to be able to do that easily until level 9 or at will until level 16.

I feel that it is appearance that has meant there has been ten times as much talk about eidolon flight than say a storm oracles ability to fly.

So how much do you think appearance effects people's expectations and do you think as a rule of thumb developers on rpgs should be careful about the asthetic choices they make and how they might influence their players. Or do you think aesthetics should have no effect on narratives and mechanics ?

I would prefer players weren't encouraged to add wings to their eidolons ascethetic because then it wouldn't be an issue that they couldn't fly. A simple bit of text saying that eidolon dragons & angels typically don't have wings as it something they grow in later development would suffice.

Does it not bother you that someone who is flying through the power of creativity is also mechanically walking at the same time as he is flying for all purposes including difficult terrain, dangerous terrain, pressure pads even oily surfaces like the grease spell? I hate contradictions like that.

so this is personal opinion but I see it as much the same as if a fighter wanted to be a telekinetic and decided all his melee strikes were in fact short range telekinesis using the sword as a focus. There is mechanically isn't any harm in that its fine it won't break the game but it would take me out of things each time he did it and I'd want him to grab the telekinetic projectile spell because that is how telekinesis is supposed to work in this game.

Obviosuly eveything i and everyone else says on this forum is subjective opinion, even the data for this sort of thing is pretty soft.

But as I said earlier in pathfinder 2e for the most part the mechanics are not separate from the world they are the gravity and invisible hands that define what is possible in that world. If you want to run, climb, swim, eat, sleep ect their are rules for that.

The idea that mechanical flight is flight mechanical climbing is climbing, that mechanical swimming is swimming that the fear spell scares people that fireballs are hot seems critical to the game. Its really the only thing that ensure people are playing in the same space, the same the world.

But knowing and accepting something can't fly whilst also accepting that it is flying is textbook defention of Orwellian double think I am not using it an insult its just what you call embracing two contradicting narratives at the same time. Its not some grand insult it something any political scientist could tell you plays out in the real world very often. I use it because its the best words to describe a certain duality of thought and because Orwell is my literary hero and like to use the words he created.

Grumpus wrote:

So what happens if someone casts "earthbind" on your "flying eidolon"? They just wasted their spell because its not really flying and not a valid target.

Or someone has "grease" prepared but decides not cast it on the wall because you are "flying"?

The reflavoring you are suggesting does not work for me, but if your group is cool with it, have it at.

No one is suggesting that anyone would in any way be confused in this case. The goal is not to mislead anyone, or similar.

Everyone knows the truth.

But everyone plays along because its a cooperative experience, and the goal is to have fun.

There are only a few people that sort of double think work and it tends not be the players of rules heavy games like this. If this was fate or pbta game it wouldn't concern me. But there has for been an attempt to tie the mechanics to the narratives in this game and the summoner is weirdly divorced from that.

Going from a hyperbolic stance the fact my d8 natural weapon can be my ediolon stabbing someone with a dirk, a bite, a magical greatsword, angelic stileto high heels, a person sized biomass tentacle or possibly an 10ft tall hammer manifested out of hard light is a bit weird. The mechanics are divorced from the fiction and it feels strange. I know that theoretically I should limit my stuff to things that are roughly equivalent to a d8 but then again that feels even more restrictive than rules on what I can and can't use as a natural weapon would be.

So i am left in the position that 10ft my hard light hammer is mechancially the same as my wing buffet or punch. Apart from the fact one of them I can use to make jokes about compensating for something which I suppose isn't nothing.

Wind Chime wrote:

Ruzza wrote:

Wind Chime wrote:

Ruzza wrote:

I've given up on trying to parse what you want your words to say, honestly.

I feel my point has been successfully made that the summoner was among the many broken things in pathfinder 1e and didn't deserve all this special animosity.

No, I literally had to read your post several times to find the meaning (pre-edits, it looks like) not that I didn't get your point.

Also, special animosity? Asking the PF2 summoner to not become what it was in terms of broken capabilities isn't a vendetta.

Its always wonderful speaking with such a fine patient and congenial fellow. In this day age a gentle person who keep their discourse free of ire is a truly a diamond in the rough.

You might still be missing the grammatical portions of your post that lead to not comprehending them to begin with. I wasn't looking for a more floral vocabulary, just clarity.

Sorry about that is probably the dyslexia you can practice the words all you want but they often come out jumbled.

League is a strange misspelling of "galaxy"

You my friend are underestimating the power of stacking buffs and boots on the ground.

The pack has always been the premier over powered build, I have a good memory of looking quizzically at one gm who was focusing dementedly on killing all my summons only for me to summon 5 more the next turn.

It doesn't help your case to point out another broken build. "It can't be broken, it didn't even do what this completely other off the wall build could do!"

Summoners invalidated the need for other players at the table. Yes, other classes could do that, too (Hi, wizard). A druid didn't have the min-maxing insanity that was the Evolution System.

A druid could have an impressively solidly buffed animal companion (not in the ediolons league but competitive with a poorly optimised fighter and 8 sabretooth tigers. Each with there own smite evil there was absolutely no reason not use. Whilst being a full caster or another solid but not eidolon solid melee character through wildshape.

I did visit the charop boards, summoner was not the top tier damage dealer by any measures those were pretty much all pounce/spirited charge or the riding feat that did the same thing combined with a set up adding level bonus to damage and could go into the thousands. Who didn't love rage lance pounce whilst it was an option. You could do hundreds of damage with a summoner and it was an easy set up but you weren't top tier by any measure. The humble fighter archer with all the feats and tricks could keep up with an eidolon.

I have yet to see anything in the game that matches a kitsune mind control sorcerer with impossible to save dc and the undead feats and metamgics. It got to the point of all constructs all the time thank goodness for create pit.

Synthesist is as close to playing what you want as you are going to get. The PF1 summoner was a complete disaster for PF1. The designers of PF2 do not want to break the game balance and they shouldn't break it. They have a great rules system here that relies on class balance. What you want breaks that balance.

Nobody says you can't home rule whatever you want in your own campaigns. But as far as the base rules go, there is no possible way they are going to allow players to ditch the human form completely and just play the eidolon with no penalties.

Oh come off it the summoner did nothing in Pathfinder 1e that I couldn't do better with a druid. All the people moaning about it were blowing steam it was a beast but so was every caster. I had far better go at breaking the game with a kitsune enchanter than I ever did with a summoner.

Verzen wrote:

siegfriedliner wrote:

So I was speaking with another person on this board and I was arguing that the eidolon didn't have customization on par with a player character and she put the point that doubling the customization (by giving similar amounts for both the summoner and the eidolon) would be too unfair and unbalanced. Given I liked the oodles of oodles of customization in pathfinder 1e this is a problem.

But their may be a solution as I care very little for summoner what would you recon would be the best way to rip their customization away from their unworthy hands and in a perfect 0 sum fashion give it whole sale to my eidolon.

How would you approach an option for the summoner to forsake his racial feat, skill feats and class feats to give the eidolon exclusive access to them or equivalents ?

I'd gladly sacrifice all summoner customization for my Eidolon to have all the customization. I do not like the "partnership" equal power dynamic. If that's what it takes.

Look we all know you want to play a 3.0E Monster Class, but this forums for discussing the Summoner.

Synthesist summoner shows the devlopers already Know there is and has always been a substantial amount of summoner players that desire a ediolon first, eidolon only approach.

The developers must know that no one plays a summoner to be a sorcerer with a 5th of the spell slots. The eidolon and its customsiation has always been the meat of the class. So if they need to take resources from the summoner to flesh out the eidolon they should.

Before you say no one plays the class to just play the eidolon well the popularity of the synthesist proves that line false.

I had a bit of fun playtesting the the summoner and I have found its not for me, it seems to feel like the alchemist to me it has a lot of moving parts but none of them load bearing. I will return to playing the player handbook classes which I find simpler and more elegant.

Have you ever played starfinder for their summoning apart from a few exceptions the summons were all lesser to elder elemental stat blocks with graft (a few thematic abities, resitances and vunerbailities) to individualise them.

I feel the pathfinder 2e summmoner is very much in that vain they all share a basic stat block. But unlike starfinder they don't apply graft of thematic abities to there summons. Everyone gets the same basic elemetal template and are told to name it what they want.

I know the spell lists changes but that pretty much feel completely tangential to the eidolon itself.

To quote the incopreal trait from 1e

An incorporeal creature has no physical body

Wind Chime wrote:

Unfortunately due to game balance your just going to have to accept your dragon is more komdo than dragon, your shade is more a guy in a sheet than a shade.

Questions like why you your an angel/dragon has wings but can't use them and how come my shade is tangible, can be posioned and catch a cold (ie made out of meat), will avail you naught.

But questions like these are only likely to bug you for a short time before you simply come to accept your eidolons short comomings, learm to turn a blind eye to their inherent illogic or start intentionally lampooning it.

To be fair the potential for scoobydoo eidolons is actually quite a lot of fun.

Th dragon eidolon who is kobold with a alchemist fire thrower, the guy in a sheet shade, the beast eidolon who is a furry, the angel who bought whose wings made out of finest goose feathers.

Or, you know, you can play it as intended in Good Faith and have fun playing it seriously.

Your dragon ignores cliff walls by flying from 5th level (when evolution surge adds a climb speed), flies on demand at 9th, and can do practically any iconic trick your spell lists allows via Greater Magical Evolution.

Playing in a game thats balanced means making some concessions that you're playing within limits. Its not ridiculous unless you make it ridiculous.

Your phantom has no adaptions to make it phantom like, it functions entirely like a creature made flesh and blood its vunerable to diseases and poison it needs to breath which probably means it has lungs hidden in its ectoplasm. Given this is what the mechanics are telling us a phantom eidolon is taking them at face value seems in perfectly good faith. If they wanted people to treat their phantom eidolons like a phantom they should have made them like a phantom.

If they are going to stick to this design paradigm then the should avoid creatures that aren't corporeal and subject to all the vulnerabilities a human is otherwise you will end something that is at least a little farcical.

So I have in 5e and 1e pathfinder struggled to balance combat encouters (flip flopping from dull to murderous).

So say I wanted to use my own setting (our campaign groups Faerun) but wanted to use reskinned dungeons and combats from an ap which of the current aps do you think its best to buy?

I don't know about your experience, but I found i go through spell slots fairly quickly in 2e, enemies save far to bloody often and there a surprising number of encounter with 1 - 3 enemies who are 1-3 levels above the party. Higher level enemies seem far to common to have tools that are fundamentally useless against them (enemies will likely have a +50% chance to save anyway) as your more likely to waste your action using them. Not when you have tools like magic missile, fear, slow that actually do something on the miss the most likely outcome.

There's also the Electric Arc debate. People generally agree it's more powerful than other cantrips, but there's disagreement on whether it needs a nerf or if all the other damage cantrips need a buff.

I mean this similar to the gnome flickmace debate where its hard to argue that its not the best option of its type but as to whether that is in fact a problem is more questionable.

The Monk Multiclass is super solid, flurry of blows is great but I also love whirling throw and grappling barbarians.

Midnightoker wrote:

Okay What!?

That spell is nuts. And it doesn’t have the incapacitation trait.

Literally so good it kinda feels like it’s a mistake.

-3 to AC, Reflex Saves/DC, -10 movement speed, 25% chance to lose concentrate actions, and 20% failure on attacks and opponents can take stealth actions against them.

For 10 rounds on failure. Even the success is 1 round of sheer and near complete ineffectiveness.

And the critical failure is a death sentence.

Am I off here? That’s basically the best single target SoS in the game by a large margin right?

There are a few caveats- it's only the best when you are actually taking advantage of "no incapacitation" part. Against on-level enemies and below when you first get it, it's already using your highest slot and incapacitation spells are generally better. If you have to heighten your incapacitation spell one slot higher, then maybe it's a tie against on-level opponents. After that it's the best (because it works in a comparatively low slot), and against higher-level enemies it's the best from the start.

I would argue Synesthesia has the best miss effect of any spell in the game which when most even level enemies succeed their saves slightly more than they fail is an incredibly bonus.

A focus spell in the style of wildshape that gave you summon animal and you could add creature types to it with feats (celestial etc) would be balanced and wouldn't require giving full spell casting to the summoner, whilst also having the perk of feeling the obvious successor to the spell like abilities of the 1st edition summoner.

Lycar wrote:

You do realise that that is what combat spells are for? The ones that ignore AC? Perhaps the Champion needs to eat the odd MAGIC MISSILE to wipe that smug grin off his face... ;)

The number of enemies in APs with Magic Missiles is tragically low, and Champions are perpetually smug. I dont think that theres any way to get rid of that grin...

Other magic IS more effective than physical attacks... assuming you're targeting reflex... Just gotta hope they didn't pack that out of date low level Spellguard Shields for another +2 to saves...

Or now that my party is level 20, the whole party doesn't remember reflecting shields exist.

Looking at the maths paladins should still get hit plenty, there just be hit and crit ten % less than everyone else.

Having a potential of spending a third to a half your feats on shield block means shield block needs to be robust.

No other reaction has so many feats attached to it, not even attack of opportunity or the paladin reactions.

I always thought it was funny for a kineticist there was no straight force element for those wanting to play a telekinetic. You can play a pyrokinetic just fine so firestarter is an option but I really wanted my complete Stepen King set and play Carrie as well.

Obviously the shine is occult magic, plain and simple.

High level wall spells can be climbed, flown over, leapt over etc. Its good but mainly it's cool, too few spells in this edition allow you effect your environment in such a dramatic way even it higher level.

Now that there is a primal spell source it would be hard to argue that kineticist aren't drawing from it.

Also if wizards had named the kineticist they would have called then elementalists.

Obviously wizard have been nerfed just compair spells for example the best 3rd area control spell in 1e in my opinion was stinking cloud (creates an sustained cloud that nauseates (equivalent to stun 3 in this edition) all creatures in it for 1d4 rounds.

The best 2e area control spell Imo is fear at level 3 which gives a —2 penalty to attacks, AC and saves to 5 enemies for 1 round. Its not bad mathematically subtracting 10‰ from 5 monsters attack rolls and adding 10‰ to your allies attacks against those 5 monsters is mathematically significant but its not Summoning a cloud of sulphurous air that makes up to a dozen enemies spend their turn retching and groaning.

So is electic arc the strongest of the cantrips yes, is it out of synch with the other cantrips yes, is this a problem no, no one is going to feel invalidated by 1d4 + attribute damage x2 for 2 actions. It's OK for casters who are out their much diminished pool of resources to have options that aren't completely mediocre.

There was politics going on (arcane power vacuum)and we had been given sufficient evidence attacking her would end badly (the previous group that tried to kill her) but it was an opportunity I just couldn't just pass up especially given she was treating us like pawns and moronic as it seemed my character had his own aspirations of claiming the deceased sorcerer's tower for himself which could come to nothing with her in the way. Basically I saw the opportunity to skip waiting half a year (and several levels) to get what my character wanted.

What does a "non-wuxia" high-level fighter look like?

Possible Answers: Freaking Spectacular
Massively Dangerous
Faster than a speeding arrow
More powerful than a dozen storm giants.
A master of a hundred styles and a thousand weapons
Capable of cleaving all those who look oppose him/her in twain

Also his/her presence scares everyone who is not a high powered angel, demon, esper, or cartoon villain from an evil syndicate into submission because life is too short to deal with the likes of him/her even if you can technically live forever.

Nah to be honest the thread was prompted by the my queen just told me to murder someone paladin thread. Which amused me because a Queen that would think that a paladin would be game for a bit of extra-curricular murder doesn't know him very well. But too be honest the easiest solution to said problem is too get the inevitable chaotic neutral other pc to do it that way keeping the paladin's hands clean and keeping the queen happy.

Those leeches are bad-ass they could kill a colossal Great Wyrm in under a minute, they could probably kill the giants themselves in under 30 seconds.

Most of my barbarians would have at least chucked some daggers at there feet to see if they attack, if they do problem solved you kill them in self defence. if not then you take them to the nearest village that the orcs have raided and hand the in to the village elder and let the village decide what to do with them.

So I was wondering what people think unchained will do the the summoner obviously they intend to nurf both the eidolon and probably the spell list. So assuming they do bring summoners spellcasting in line with other 2/3 casters what would people think would be the right power level for an eidolon.

In my mind the power level aught to be higher than an equivalent level summoned creature or animal companion, otherwise the summoner will end up just being an inferior sorcerer (who can get summons and animal companions and full casting).

The perfect power level would be something that is stronger than an equivalent levelled summoned monster and weaker than an equivalently level rogue. So I was wandering what would actually fit into that particular power niche?

So it looks like Pummeling Charge could stack with spirited charge if you are punching of horseback for double your total damage because pummeling charge counts as just one big hit. Does this work and is it too cheesy to use?

Wind Chime wrote:

Tarantula wrote:

Did you actually kill him outright with your last hit? Or were you just able to drop him into the negatives and then kept swinging anyway?

I think he had about 10hp before my last hit.

So you did 24+ on a single hit? (assuming a fighter would have at least a 14 CON)

Pretty much, he was raging wielding a magical great sword.

Man, I haven't seen one of these in like a week or so...

Did you create that account solely for this thread, if so well played.

Ah oops

The most effective class is whichever one is being played by the most skilled player.

Not necessarily true, it is much harder to win rock paper scissors when you only have scissors to play with.

"The reason I despise Paladins is threefold, first every paladin I have met has had an air of smug superiority. The sort that think they are better and more righteous than you, holier than though and twice as sacred. More than that they all come across as preachy and dictatorial always this is the way we are going to do things this is the way you should think.

Worst off all is the fact they can't get that things aren't black and white they aren't simple and half the time there is no right answer and there aren't anything but difficult choices."

Black Jack Slade on Bleeding Heart Paladins.

Sorry channeling my favorite rogue character there, still he outlines why chaotic neutral pc's can hate paladins.

Using initiative for negotiations keeps the loudest player from being the sole negotiator.

You have six seconds to negotiate before its someone else turn, thats 4-8 words good luck having a meaningful conversation with that. Not to mention that during that time multiple people will be speaking in the same 6 seconds of real time. Its one of my greatest dislikes about the system because it means you cant really have th fight banter you get in movies.

A bit off-topic; when I saw the thread title, I thought Wind Chime meant "how should high-level fighters look in-game?" And I immediately thought of some narration from Kung Fu Panda:

"So deadly was he, in fact, that his enemies would go blind from over-exposure to PURE AWESOMENESS!"

That's what a high-level fighter should look like. ;)

That is at least partially what I meant from bullet time to my punches bend space time.

I have to admit that the summoner spell list is just a really bad precedent I mean if Bard's don't even get dominate monster then there is no way Summoners should. The effect on Metamagic Rod and magic item prices in general is pretty telling.

Dungeons and caverns. Mounts become instantly useless.

Also, anyone entering a Webbed area is subject to the web effect. Unless they can fly or go incorporeal, there is no such thing as immunity to Web.

Freedom of Movement

Summoners aren't CodZilla as they are neither clerics, or druids or full casters.

Though I would be happy to call a Huge Dinosaur Eidolon Godzilla.