Pummeling Spirited Charge


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So it looks like Pummeling Charge could stack with spirited charge if you are punching of horseback for double your total damage because pummeling charge counts as just one big hit. Does this work and is it too cheesy to use?


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Wind Chime wrote:
So it looks like Pummeling Charge could stack with spirited charge if you are punching of horseback for double your total damage because pummeling charge counts as just one big hit. Does this work and is it too cheesy to use?

My god what have you done...


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I think the more threads that come out like the closer we are to forcing a rewrite on a the feat.

In the same way that RageLancePounce was denied Spirited Charge on all attacks with a mounted charge (it applies only to the first) I doubt you will be allowed to apply it to all damage from a Pummeling Charge, if this is ever actually addressed by PDT.


Claxon wrote:

I think the more threads that come out like the closer we are to forcing a rewrite on a the feat.

In the same way that RageLancePounce was denied Spirited Charge on all attacks with a mounted charge (it applies only to the first) I doubt you will be allowed to apply it to all damage from a Pummeling Charge, if this is ever actually addressed by PDT.

The problem is the core function of the feat is that it's a full attack as a single hit.


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SADDLE UP, BATTY-BAT, RAGEFISTPOUNCE RIDES AGAIN

Scarab Sages

blahpers wrote:
SADDLE UP, BATTY-BAT, RAGEFISTPOUNCE RIDES AGAIN

Oh my gosh, this made my day.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Claxon wrote:
***In the same way that RageLancePounce was denied Spirited Charge on all attacks with a mounted charge (it applies only to the first) I doubt you will be allowed to apply it to all damage from a Pummeling Charge, if this is ever actually addressed by PDT.

Remember though, they FAQ'd RAGELANCEPOUNCE back into existence, and it's still currently a thing.


How did they FAQ RAGELANCEPOUNCE back?

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Chess Pwn wrote:
How did they FAQ RAGELANCEPOUNCE back?

Sean said it didn't work because the Barbarian wasn't the one charging. Then they did this FAQ stating that no, actually, both you and the mount really are taking a charge action. You don't get triple damage on the iterative attacks, but you do get to pounce, so a raging barbarian can hop on his mount, perform a mounted charge and use his pounce ability, and deal one attack for triple damage and however many normal attacks his iteratives would grant him at that level. In the thread related to that FAQ, they even said they knew they were re-opening the door on RAGELANCEPOUNCE and were okay with it because it was a niche build.


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How's all this interact with Order of the Sword's level 8 ability Mounted Mastery, specifically "Whenever he makes a charge attack while mounted, he receives a +4 dodge bonus to his AC to avoid attacks set against his charge. When making such an attack, he can add his mount’s Strength modifier to the damage roll, in addition to his own." Because tacking your mount's Strength on top of everything else for either Pummeling Style or pounce sounds awesome. Especially if you're riding a combat Druid party member.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

The mount's STR would be added to the first attack in the pounce sequence and multiplied by the lance and/or Spirited Charge but due to the other FAQ stating that the additional attacks from the lance don't gain charge benefits, I don't think you'd get the mount bonus on the iteratives.
Pummeling Style on the other hand... I'm less certain. I'm inclined to say the same thing, but the rationale for the why the additional lance attacks in a pounce don't get charge benefits actually doesn't apply to Pummeling Style. If you normally get to apply charge bonuses when determining the iterative attacks for your Pummeling Style attack, then you should also get to apply the mount bonus to all attacks.


Ssalarn wrote:
Claxon wrote:
***In the same way that RageLancePounce was denied Spirited Charge on all attacks with a mounted charge (it applies only to the first) I doubt you will be allowed to apply it to all damage from a Pummeling Charge, if this is ever actually addressed by PDT.
Remember though, they FAQ'd RAGELANCEPOUNCE back into existence, and it's still currently a thing.

I totally missed that.

Just a question though, does everyone agree that Pummeling Strike is a mess?

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Claxon wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Claxon wrote:
***In the same way that RageLancePounce was denied Spirited Charge on all attacks with a mounted charge (it applies only to the first) I doubt you will be allowed to apply it to all damage from a Pummeling Charge, if this is ever actually addressed by PDT.
Remember though, they FAQ'd RAGELANCEPOUNCE back into existence, and it's still currently a thing.

I totally missed that.

Just a question though, does everyone agree that Pummeling Strike is a mess?

Agreed. Combining that mess with the pre-existing mess of mounted combat seems like an exercise in insanity, but somewhere there's a Sohei cackling in mad glee.

Dark Archive

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Pummeling Charge is a mess, I made a joke character that abused it with this idea: Pummeling Charge + Spirited Charge + Janni Rush = Your character rides the mount, you and the mount both jump, you end the jump by landing on the enemy and headbutting them(for flavor). Monk 2(MoMS) + Cavalier 1(Gendarme) + Fighter 1(Unarmed) is the fastest I've been able to pull it off. You grab two weapon fighting and a full BAB class for the rest to give you more iteratives and the like. The attack deals a lot of damage because you roll every attack in your pummeling style attack's damage dice twice(Janni Rush), then multiply the end damage dice by 2(Spirited Charge) and if you crit the damage dice for your unarmed strike gets multiplied twice(because of how Janni Rush is worded) so your crits are even more powerful.


My thread that's currently active is a proposed twf lance horseback build with pummeling strike and spirited charge >.>


Dustyboy wrote:
My thread that's currently active is a proposed twf lance horseback build with pummeling strike and spirited charge >.>

Pummeling does not works with lances, or any other weapons.


Spirited charge however does work with unarmed strikes.

Lantern Lodge

Per RAW Pummeling Strike cannot be combined with a charge because the feat states it is a full-round action, not part of a full-attack action.

Charge is a special full-round action and Pounce lets you make a full-attack action after.


kaisc006 wrote:

Per RAW Pummeling Strike cannot be combined with a charge because the feat states it is a full-round action, not part of a full-attack action.

Charge is a special full-round action and Pounce lets you make a full-attack action after.

And then we read pummeling charge

Spoiler:
Pummeling Charge (Combat)

Your charge ends with a mighty haymaker.

Prerequisite(s): Improved Unarmed Strike, Pummeling Style; base attack bonus +12, brawler level 8th, or monk level 8th.

Benefit: When using Pummeling Style, you can charge and make a Pummeling Style attack at the end of your charge as part of the charge action.

Normal: Making a Pummeling Style attack is a full-round action.

Lantern Lodge

Undone wrote:


And then we read pummeling charge

And then I feel stupid ;)

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Yeah, you can absolutely combo up Pummeling Charge and Spirited Charge, it's just all the other little bits that create issues.
The additional attacks rolled into the single attack are determined with the "normal" attack bonus. Since the lance FAQ indicates that iterative attacks taken on a charge do not gain charge bonuses, does "normal" mean that those subsequent rolls shouldn't be calculated with charge bonuses, even though there's technically only one attack happening and the logic for why they shouldn't be charges doesn't fit like it otherwise would? Whether or not the iterative attacks that are being rolled into the single Pummeling Charge attack should be treated as charge attacks makes a huge difference in what does or does not get factored in (such as the mount STR bonus from Order of the Sword).


Also if all of them get the bonus to hit for charging? Do they all get double str from the Horn of the Criosphinx?

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Really, they just need to be clarified as either being or not being counted as charge attacks when calculating their contribution to the pummeling strike. What is "the normal amount of damage"? Is it "the normal amount of damage for an attack made under these conditions"? "The normal amount of damage you would deal if each attack was made as a separate attack in a normal full attack sequence"?

If I'm a cavalier/sohei with 6 flurry attacks, Order of the Sword, and Spirited Charge, are each of the attack and damage rolls treated as charge attacks or just the first? Or even none, since they're all calculated "as normal"? There's a huge gap between what the most conservative interpretation and the most liberal reading, but the RAW don't actually favor one interpretation over the other, and the FAQs actually lean towards the interpretation where you get double your normal damage and double your mount's STR modifier on the damage for every attack roll in the earlier mentioned sequence.

Shadow Lodge

Im gonna site here for AM BARBARIAN's comment

Paizo Glitterati Robot

Removing some sniping posts. Guys, be civil to each other, please.


I wish AM BARBARIAN would comment on this.


Can someone PLEASE LINK where they FAQ'ed ragelancepounce back in.


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You can pounce while mounted, because both you and your mount are charging, and you can attack with a lance during that pounce, but the lance damage is only doubled for the first attack.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

If this is built out to it's full and terrifying damage potential, don't forget to include Horn of the Criosphinx. It will do wonders with this combination.


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Angry Wiggles wrote:
If this is built out to it's full and terrifying damage potential, don't forget to include Horn of the Criosphinx. It will do wonders with this combination.

I'm not sure I want to see this abomination built out completely.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I'll be getting a text the moment a particular player in my game finds this thread, asking about retraining.


Dot

In my opinion you can't flurry while mounted because, , , reasons.

Though a sohei laying the boot down from horseback is cool, I'd hate to see this become a new, viable build. It's worse than gunslingers!


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Honestly, this is to cool to not allow. And if a player actually sinks in the resources to get a good unarmed attack, all the required feats, and a mount that won't die the second they enter an encounter, they have earned the ability to punch an enemy and make them explode.


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Human Mutagenic Mauler Brawler 2 / Master of Many Styles Kata Master Monk 2 / Order of the Cockatrice Gendarme Cavalier 4 / Undead Blood Conduit Bloodrager 1 / Dragoon Fighter 2

1) Improved Monstrous Mount [FEAT, RETRAINED]
1) Noble Scion, War [BONUS, HUMAN]
1) Improved Unarmed Strike [BONUS, BRAWLER]
2) Spirited Charge [BONUS, BRAWLER]
3) Horse Master [FEAT, RETRAINED]
3) Pummeling Charge [BONUS, MONK]
4) Pummeling Style [BONUS, MONK, RETRAINED]
5) Monstrous Mount [FEAT, RETRAINED]
5) Power Attack [BONUS, CAVALIER]
6) Dazzling Display [BONUS, CAVALIER]
7) Rhino Charge [FEAT, RETRAINED]
9) Horn of the Criosphinx [FEAT]
9) Improved Bull Rush [BONUS, BLOODRAGER]
10) Skill Focus: Ride, Mounted Combat [BONUS, FIGHTER]
11) Ride-by Attack [BONUS, FIGHTER]

Could use some more efficient level distribution to avoid hefty retraining requirements, but this gets you Pummeling Spirited Horn of the Criosphinx charge from the back of a pouncing death-griffin (full HD due to Horse Master). You only need two stats (STR and CHA) and CHA is just to power secondary abilities like panache and intimidation, as well as initiative in this case.

For added fun, the Order of the Cockatrice ability combines with the Undead bloodline's auto-shaken ability on a charge to give extra bonuses against the newly-shaken enemies; the potential STR of the character on a charge is astronomical with Mutagen and Bloodrage.

Note that this build is targeted toward getting completely "online" by level 11 so it can be used in PFS (the Fighter levels should probably be sooner to get Spirited Charge up and running faster); not that I'd particularly want to play this murdermonster in PFS.

If you're playing beyond level 11 levels of paladin wouldn't go awry to make use of that high CHA (paladin conflicts with nothing in the build alignment-wise, thank you Bloodrager) although you'd definitely be going for a Lawful Stupid vibe.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

The main force of this trick appears to be something you can have online as early as third level. It's even race agnostic.
With Sohei Monk 2 / Unarmed Fighter 1

1) Pummeling Style
1) Mounted Combat [Bonus]
1) Improved Unarmed Strike [Bonus]
2) Ride-by Attack [Bonus]
3) Spirited Charge
3) Pummeling Charge [Bonus, ignores prerequisites]

Combined with the right mount classes or other combat routes, like sacred huntsmaster inquisitor with the chivalry domain, this can get downright nasty.


Angry Wiggles wrote:

The main force of this trick appears to be something you can have online as early as third level. It's even race agnostic.

With Sohei Monk 2 / Unarmed Fighter 1

1) Pummeling Style
1) Mounted Combat [Bonus]
1) Improved Unarmed Strike [Bonus]
2) Ride-by Attack [Bonus]
3) Spirited Charge
3) Pummeling Charge [Bonus, ignores prerequisites]

Combined with the right mount classes or other combat routes, like sacred huntsmaster inquisitor with the chivalry domain, this can get downright nasty.

I don't think this is right. Pummeling charge is not a style feat.

Quote:
Unarmed Style: At 1st level, a unarmed fighter gains the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and any single style feat (see Chapter 3) as a bonus feat. The unarmed fighter need not meet all the prerequisites of the style feat he chooses, but style feats that grant additional uses of the Elemental Fist feat cannot be taken until the unarmed fighter has that feat. This ability replaces the bonus feat at 1st level.
Quote:

Pummeling Charge (Combat)

Your charge ends with a mighty haymaker.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Pummeling Style; base attack bonus +12, brawler level 8th, or monk level 8th.
Benefit: When using Pummeling Style, you can charge and make a Pummeling Style attack at the end of your charge as part of the charge action.
Normal: Making a Pummeling Style attack is a full-round action.

As you note it doesn't have the style descriptor so you can only take the introductory level feat with it.


Too bad Pummeling Style requires a full-round action, would have been nice with Sohei + Mounted Skirmisher (full-attack action) when not charging.


A Human Brawler 2/MoMS 1 could do it. Pummeling Charge as your MoMS bonus feat, and one human feat, one brawler feat, and two level feats to get Pummeling Style and Spirited Charge. If you need to be something other than human, than it has to wait until level 4 to get it as Brawler 2/MoMS 2, although you could get it earlier with Martial Flexibility.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

Undone wrote:
Angry Wiggles wrote:

The main force of this trick appears to be something you can have online as early as third level. It's even race agnostic.

With Sohei Monk 2 / Unarmed Fighter 1

1) Pummeling Style
1) Mounted Combat [Bonus]
1) Improved Unarmed Strike [Bonus]
2) Ride-by Attack [Bonus]
3) Spirited Charge
3) Pummeling Charge [Bonus, ignores prerequisites]

Combined with the right mount classes or other combat routes, like sacred huntsmaster inquisitor with the chivalry domain, this can get downright nasty.

I don't think this is right. Pummeling charge is not a style feat.

Quote:
Unarmed Style: At 1st level, a unarmed fighter gains the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and any single style feat (see Chapter 3) as a bonus feat. The unarmed fighter need not meet all the prerequisites of the style feat he chooses, but style feats that grant additional uses of the Elemental Fist feat cannot be taken until the unarmed fighter has that feat. This ability replaces the bonus feat at 1st level.
Quote:

Pummeling Charge (Combat)

Your charge ends with a mighty haymaker.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Pummeling Style; base attack bonus +12, brawler level 8th, or monk level 8th.
Benefit: When using Pummeling Style, you can charge and make a Pummeling Style attack at the end of your charge as part of the charge action.
Normal: Making a Pummeling Style attack is a full-round action.

As you note it doesn't have the style descriptor so you can only take the introductory level feat with it.

So it would seem, that is quite odd. This is somewhat counterintuitive, particularly considering that these feats are listed as Style feats in the feats table of the Advanced Class Guide. This seems more like an oversight to me than an intentional absence, as we can see the same absence of the style tag on both the jabbing style feats and grabbing style feats. I would be interested to know if this absence was intentional or not, as whether or not they are considered style feats changes a great deal about the functionality of these style builds.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Angry Wiggles wrote:
Combined with the right mount classes or other combat routes, like sacred huntsmaster inquisitor with the chivalry domain, this can get downright nasty.

What benefit would a Sacred Huntsmaster actually get from the Chivalry inquisition? They already have an animal companion, so Mount does nothing, and they don't get any judgments to share, so Faithful Steed doesn't help either.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

CrazyGnomes wrote:
Angry Wiggles wrote:
Combined with the right mount classes or other combat routes, like sacred huntsmaster inquisitor with the chivalry domain, this can get downright nasty.
What benefit would a Sacred Huntsmaster actually get from the Chivalry inquisition? They already have an animal companion, so Mount does nothing, and they don't get any judgments to share, so Faithful Steed doesn't help either.
Mount wrote:
This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the cavalier’s level as his effective druid level.
Druid wrote:
If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion.

With both the chivalry inquisition and the sacred huntsmaster archetype, we end up with an effective druid level of double our class level. Or if there is a cap on our druid level due to some rule I've yet to encounter, we can reach said cap, much, much quicker.


Angry Wiggles wrote:
Or if there is a cap on our druid level due to some rule I've yet to encounter, we can reach said cap, much, much quicker.

How about the fact that a AC chart only goes up to 20.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

NikolaiJuno wrote:
Angry Wiggles wrote:
Or if there is a cap on our druid level due to some rule I've yet to encounter, we can reach said cap, much, much quicker.
How about the fact that a AC chart only goes up to 20.

There is that one, true enough. I was considering the idea that there might be a ruling that animal companions can't be more than X levels above our character level, which I hadn't yet encountered.


I think there is just a limit for individual abilities that mention it like Boon Companion, barring of course house rules.


In PFS there's something like the AC's HD can't be more than equal or two higher than yours or something like that. In normal rules there's nothing that says how this would work. The closest thing is the Divine Hunter which gives stats boosts if you pick animal domain.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Butterfly's Sting just got better.

Sovereign Court

LuniasM wrote:
Butterfly's Sting just got better.

Sadly criticals don't multiply the whole pile of damage by 2, it just adds one to the ongoing stack of multipliers.

It's why a Litany of Righteousness + Spirited Charge with a lance crit is only going to do x5 damage ( x3 for spirited charge, + x1 for the crit, + x1 for the Litany)

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