Does the Paladin fall?


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Dark Archive

So in my group the Paladin at one time no longer trusted the party wizard when he was reincarnated to a bugbear, and started to show many angry and bestial traits. This led to a conversation with another character about "taking care of the bugbear" if he fell further. The bugbear overheard and swore vengeance against the "bigoted" paladin, saying he could only see skin deep.

Fast forward some, the Paladin has a romance with a young female paladin in their home city. When far away the Paladin is wakened in his room by a monstrous creature spouting harsh sounding gibberish. It does not attack him, but does approach him, gesturing towards him. It tries to touch him, not attack, touch. He takes an attack of opportunity and slays it in one blow. A few moments later the illusion drops and he see's he killed his love along with a letter on her from the bugbear that "now he see's his bigotry for what it is" and "all that matters to him is appearances". The Paladin assembles the group and tries to say they must put the bugbear down. He then goes to raise her and I have it fail, my thinking was he killed her, and did not put any blame on himself.

My question, was that fair? I will obviously let him atone if he wishes. Also do paladins still lose their abilities when they fall?

Help would be appreciated. The last game ended this way.

Sovereign Court

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So - whoever set up that whole situation is a dick. Stop it.

The paladin was entirely reasonable in being wary of the party wizard in a bestial body, afraid that he might give in to his new bestial nature. Saying that it's bigoted is like saying people are bigoted when they're wary of Bruce Banner.

The paladin lives in a world where monstrous gibbering horrors probably have it out for him due to his do-gooding. It's not crazy for him to be a bit paranoid. Saying that this makes him fall is like saying a paladin should fall if he kills someone after being dominated.

If the wizard character set that up - the death is on him, and the entire group should now go kill him and burn the body so that he can never be raised again.

And really? A single AOO was enough to kill the paladin chick? He did at least 20 damage in a single swing? (assuming a Con of only 10 and only level 1 - more likely it'd need to be 26 or so even if only level 1)


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Did any of the clergy at his church advise him?

Death of a loved one is an emotional time and the church has put a lot of resources into training the paladin. It would be silly for none of the clergy to at least talk to him about this.

Sovereign Court

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No, he doesn't fall. He was set up. The wizard on the other hand committed a major evil act.

Consider: bugbears are normally quite evil and dangerous. They're also fairly intelligent and might have class levels in something that can cast Touch spells. They're known to be masters of surprise attacks and terror tactics. You don't joke around with bugbears. So for a paladin to attack a bugbear that suddenly burst in on him isn't unreasonable. Tragic in its result, sure. Hasty? Sure, but on the other hand bugbears are known for nasty surprises so you don't want to give them time to do whatever nasty thing they were gonna do.

Suppose you had a gun under your pillow. You recently read an article that a man-eating tiger escaped from the circus. Then you open your wardrobe to find a tiger there that seems interested in you. Is it wrong for you to shoot it?

---

Does that mean the paladin has entirely clean hands? I wouldn't say so. Even though he was set up, doesn't mean he had nothing to do with it. So he should definitely try to make things right. But from your description that's exactly what he tried to do: he tried to undo the damage he did (Raise Dead) and punish the evil genius behind it (the wizard).

Does he fall? No. Whatever god gave him his powers wants a fully functioning holy warrior. When the paladin does something wonky, the god takes a long hard look to determine what happened. Did the paladin want to do anything bad? (No.) Did he have good reasons? (Yes.) If something bad happened by mistake anyway, did he try to put things right? (Yes.) When wondering if a paladin falls, you must always keep in mind that the entity making that decision is the paladin's deity, and that deity wants to have holy warriors, so they tend to get the benefit of doubt.

---

The wizard on the other hand is clearly guilty of premeditated murder. If you disguise someone as a bugbear so that they'll be attacked with lethal force, that's much like hiring an assassin. In addition, trying to set up a paladin to fall would also count as Evil in my book.

---

As for the Raise Dead; I don't understand why you made it fail. Did the paladin's loved one not want to come back from the dead? Did the paladin's deity not want him to make things right?

In my view, by trying to revive his loved one the paladin was clearly expressing his regret over what happened.

Dark Archive

No doubt it was a dick move ( by the DM having taken the player over as an NPC at that point ). Its the first moral trap ever for the character and he's 14th level, not like I do things like that constantly. The enemy of the Paladin called him bigoted, as that's his point of view.

And yes, she is a trainee only a 1st level paladin...he does something on the order or 30 pts an attack, more if the creature is evil and he smites. 26 hp at level 1? that would require a con of 42...what game world are you in?

We have not gotten to the point of clergy and such. It quite literally just happened. I agree an atonement and a small quest should be all he needs to gain his powers. My question is should he have fallen? And in pathfinder do paladins lose their powers when they fall? It seems to no longer be explicitly stated.


Alright this has a couple of pieces this thread could segment into so I'll try my best to break things down to see what we're dealing with,

1-) Was the Paladin justified in his attack on the illusionary monster?

2-) Is he justified in attempting to kill the bugbear wizard?

3-) Does slaying his love and not blaming himself count as evil enough to fall?

my two copper pieces

1-) This bit is arguable but I will note that after a certain level, a "touch" from monstrous creatures is just as terrifying if not moreso to an adventurer than a soldier swinging a sword. Consider the multitude of curses, diseases, and drains that monsters can use as touch attacks and that's not even counting touch range spells.

2-) Based on the letter the wizard foresaw this to be caused by his illusion and had no qualms about an innocent dying to get at the Paladin. (unless the resurrection spell failed for other reasons and the woman is still alive due to the wizard having a conscience...hmm that'd be interesting...though I guess it's also possible for the wizrd to be trapping her soul)

3-) Now here's where we get at the trickiest part with WILD table variation. I'd suggest if anything have his powers "flicker", not mechanically damaging or anything but enough to get his character to feel that his rage has blinded him to his love and is cutting his connection to his god/goddess. At this point he may have an in character moment of self-reflection, seek the aid of a priest, an atonement, or hell maybe even embrace his fall in desire of revenge.
Point is the general rule is that Paladins should not surprise fall, it feels bad to the player and takes away the richest part of the character development a Paladin's fall offers: being at the edge and deciding if it's worth it to jump. That's an awesomely rich RP moment, why take it away from your player and yourself by doing the whole "you suddenly don't have your powers" shtick?

I'll also note that my recommendations would change considerably based on how this all winds up roleplayed. Again there are ways for the wizard to be able to do this plan without moral qualms, and the Paladin could still be in a state of grief, driven by rage (not "good" but in no way evil so long as the rage is righteous and he doesn't let his rage overtake the rest of who he is).

Hopefully I was able to help a little! Remember the most important part is that everyone enjoys and looks forward to being at the gaming table!


ah, also yes paladins DO lose all class features other than proficiency when they fall. Sorry, forgot to mention that.


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Jarazix wrote:

So in my group the Paladin at one time no longer trusted the party wizard when he was reincarnated to a bugbear, and started to show many angry and bestial traits. This led to a conversation with another character about "taking care of the bugbear" if he fell further. The bugbear overheard and swore vengeance against the "bigoted" paladin, saying he could only see skin deep.

Fast forward some, the Paladin has a romance with a young female paladin in their home city. When far away the Paladin is wakened in his room by a monstrous creature spouting harsh sounding gibberish. It does not attack him, but does approach him, gesturing towards him. It tries to touch him, not attack, touch. He takes an attack of opportunity and slays it in one blow. A few moments later the illusion drops and he see's he killed his love along with a letter on her from the bugbear that "now he see's his bigotry for what it is" and "all that matters to him is appearances". The Paladin assembles the group and tries to say they must put the bugbear down. He then goes to raise her and I have it fail, my thinking was he killed her, and did not put any blame on himself.

My question, was that fair? I will obviously let him atone if he wishes. Also do paladins still lose their abilities when they fall?

Help would be appreciated. The last game ended this way.

I dont think the paladin is going to fall. But the GM May step Down and let some one else do the DMing. What Spell did the wizard use to set up his friend to kill said friends loved one. How low level was the paladin Girl since she went from full to -con in one blowand what kind of damage can the paladin do in one blow in his pyamas. The Paladin was clearly rigth is suspecting the wizard and now they have to put him down. Sounds like a sad, GM help to,set up for party infigthing.


Pathfinder is a world where some races are ALWAYS CHAOTIC EVIL.

Being "Bigoted" is part of the world and a completely reasonable expectation.

The wizard is a dick.

You should have let the raise succeed and have the LOVER take revenge on the wizard.

I'd shift the wizard to CE and since in my games evil alignments are not allowed remove the character from his control and let the party kill it. Have him roll a new guy and rule no in party fighting.

Sovereign Court

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Jarazix wrote:
26 hp at level 1? that would require a con of 42...what game world are you in?

A world of the Pathfinder rules where a level 1 paladin with a Con of 14 means 12hp & needing to drop to -14 in order to die. (12+14...)


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Jarazix wrote:
My question is should he have fallen? And in pathfinder do paladins lose their powers when they fall? It seems to no longer be explicitly stated.

No, he should not have fallen. He was tricked. There was no premeditation nor malice involved in the paladin's actions. The paladin showed "remorse" (that seems like what the GM wants) by spending the resources and time to raise her. To have it fail because the paladin didn't take any responsibility (which he just did by paying the resources for the raise dead) seems like the GM wanting to be cruel without reasonable justification.

Yes, when you fall, your paladin abilities are gone. You get them back after atonement.

If I were the GM, the spending of resources to attempt the raise dead would have been enough to count for an atonement (as the paladin spent a lot more).

Overall, I think the adventure hook the GM provided is very interesting. I think the paladin is righteously angry, and the party should be too. They have a grand quest to vanquish an evil foe. Yay! The GM not having the raise work is what breaks the aura created and potentially could break the game (pending the players' ability to brush off junk). To back pedal and have the raise work, or (even better) take the one poster's suggestion to have the wizard trap soul the low level paladin, would be ideal. Just have the priest who cast the Raise Dead "hear" the voice of the low level paladin crying out for help, and you likely just added enough to make the hook shine ever more brightly.

Beat the evil wizard, rescue the love interest... that's good cinema!


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The Paladin threw himself into the (evil) wizard's trap. He didn't Detect Evil on the mysterious thing in his room, he attacked with lethal damage, and he didn't acknowledge that he did the wrong thing. These are not the actions of a righteous hero. It's OK to have him fall, but it shouldn't be too hard for him to redeem himself - he didn't do intentional evil.


Rory wrote:
The paladin showed "remorse" (that seems like what the GM wants) by spending the resources and time to raise her.

Raising someone from the dead doesn't require you to blame yourself for them being dead, it just means it's a person you'd prefer was alive. I've raised a number of allies, none of whom I personally murdered.

(And as a paladin, he might well have tried to save some cash by using the free raise you can get with Ultimate Mercy.)


Matthew Downie wrote:
The Paladin threw himself into the (evil) wizard's trap. He didn't Detect Evil on the mysterious thing in his room, he attacked with lethal damage, and he didn't acknowledge that he did the wrong thing. These are not the actions of a righteous hero. It's OK to have him fall, but it shouldn't be too hard for him to redeem himself - he didn't do intentional evil.

In my book it says.

"Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description in Spell Lists), as appropriate."

Since he ditent willfully commit the act you belive to evil. There is no fall.
It is possibly, if the game manage to survive flaws that most often kill a game where the GM favors some players over others, then it is quite possible that the paladin can fall form how he dels with what happend to him. But so far. No.


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Matthew Downie wrote:
He didn't Detect Evil on the mysterious thing in his room

Which would have returned no result (even if he'd had the opportunity, which he did not) since the creature was 1 HD (which Bugbears an be and often are).

Matthew Downie wrote:
These are not the actions of a righteous hero.

Righteous hero =/= Moron who lets an enemy attack him without retaliation. Which is what was going on from his PoV.

Matthew Downie wrote:
It's OK to have him fall, but it shouldn't be too hard for him to redeem himself - he didn't do intentional evil.

The bolded parts are contradictory.

Quote:
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

TL;DR: Tell your DM to stop being a t#!+, and a quick glance at the Code would have prevented this thread from even being made.


no sense motive on the gf?

Dark Archive

Well he did have a tool at his disposal to know it was not a monstrous creature in the form of sense evil. I DID mention it wasn't acting threateningly, just that it looked monstrous, demon like. btw it wasn't a bugbear she looked like, the wizard is a bugbear


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Let's break this down a little

Jarazix wrote:
So in my group the Paladin at one time no longer trusted the party wizard when he was reincarnated to a bugbear, and started to show many angry and bestial traits. This led to a conversation with another character about "taking care of the bugbear" if he fell further. The bugbear overheard and swore vengeance against the "bigoted" paladin, saying he could only see skin deep.

Nothing wrong here, sounds like a good bit of RP'ing done on both parts. The Paladin is afraid the Wizard may turn Evil, having been corrupted by his new form. The Wizard is offended that his (i'm assuming) friend would be so quick to mistrust. I'm also assuming that the Paladin follows a god or code that doesn't much go for redeeming evil. Torag maybe?

Jarazix wrote:
Fast forward some, the Paladin has a romance with a young female paladin in their home city. When far away the Paladin is wakened in his room by a monstrous creature spouting harsh sounding gibberish. It does not attack him, but does approach him, gesturing towards him. It tries to touch him, not attack, touch.

So the Paladin wakes up, and someone whom he has history of mistrusting is in his room. This creature is a known spellcaster, who begins to gesture and spout gibberish. This Paladin has seen many spells cast before I am assuming, as he has adventured with a Wizard. The creature then attempt to land a touch attack on him, which I assume he has seen before, so he should be well aware of the potential side affects of being touched by a hostile spellcaster. Makes sense to me that he would retaliate with force.

Jarazix wrote:
He takes an attack of opportunity and slays it in one blow.

How? Touch attacks do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Was the Illusion/young paladin lady attempting an unarmed strike then? How many HP did this young paladin have? Was it just a cinematic moment where the Paladin said "I defend myself" and you said "The beast does not defend itself, and you kill it in a single strike"? This bit seems off to me.

Jarazix wrote:
A few moments later the illusion drops and he see's he killed his love along with a letter on her from the bugbear that "now he see's his bigotry for what it is" and "all that matters to him is appearances".

At this point, the Paladin is as guilty as he would be if he had been Dominated and failed his save. Also, at this point the Wizard has committed an evil action. He cast a spell which he knew would result in the injury or death of an innocent.

"Jarazix wrote:
The Paladin assembles the group and tries to say they must put the bugbear down.

The Paladin has come to the same conclusion I have. He was used as an unwitting pawn in this Wizard's plan, which resulted in the death of his lover. The actual blow may have been landed by him, but the blood is on the Wizard's hands.

"Jarazix wrote:
He then goes to raise her and I have it fail, my thinking was he killed her, and did not put any blame on himself.

How does that cause a Raise to fail? I'll assume that the young Paladin lady refused to be raised. Did she know that she had been under an illusion when she was killed? How does she know that the Paladin didn't accept blame?

Or are you saying the spell failed because the Paladin fell. Was the Paladin the one casting the spell?

"Jarazix wrote:

My question, was that fair? I will obviously let him atone if he wishes.

[...]
Help would be appreciated. The last game ended this way.

I don't think the Paladin should fall. He attacked a creature that was obviously casting a spell, and then attempted to touch him. As an adventurer who has spent time with a wizard, he knows that this is a hostile action. It doesn't matter that his lover was under an illusion any more than if he had been Dominated or if the Wizard had teleported her into the path of the Paladin's sword.

Granted, once he has a little more distance, the Paladin should be a little remorseful, and should learn to check for illusions before striking a killing blow, but that's in the future.

Jarazix wrote:
Also do paladins still lose their abilities when they fall?

Yes, Paladins do lose all Supernatural, Spell Like, and Spell abilities granted by the Paladin class when they fall. Which I don't think this Paladin should.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'm just gonna say it: The next "Does the Paladin fall?" thread better be about getting bullrushed off a cliff.

The reaction was not at all evil. It was motivated by justified fear. This guy would be able to claim Castle Doctrine in the real world. The failed Raise Dead is harsh. Excessively so.

Moreover, did the Paladin get a Will save for the illusion as it interacted with him? If not, I think you're legally obligated to have the Wizard's spellbook stolen 3 days before the Paladin and company arrive to kill him.


Jarazix wrote:
And yes, she is a trainee only a 1st level paladin...he does something on the order or 30 pts an attack, more if the creature is evil and he smites. 26 hp at level 1? that would require a con of 42...what game world are you in?

Also, if I'm understanding it right part of the reason he did so much damage to the woman paladin was cause he was smiting her? Otherwise 20 damage to take her from 10 to -10 in one hit is one hell of a hit. On the smite, I don't think that he could have, and if he did then the DM was just enforcing the idea that the thing really was a monster and was bad.

In that case especially no, he shouldn't fall.

And I'm still confused on why the woman paladin wasn't able to be brought back. Does the wizard have her soul or is the DM just using the death of the woman paladin to pain the man paladin and being arbitrary with the rules to do so?


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I wake up in my bedroom at night and notice someone I don't recognise in the room with me.

There is no way I couldn't see that as a dangerous situation.

Dark Archive

His powers failed, that's why she couldn't be brought back. This plan was hatched by the wizards character when he left the group. The player has a new character now. It was just a matter of when the plan came to be.

The Paladin had a history of judging people based on race. I only only do the -con thing for PC's. The player rolled the action, it was phrased it attempts to touch you, but not attack, do you want to attack?

The woman Paladin can absolutely be brought back. I was just debating how to handle the Paladin's powers. Part of the reason I ended the game there is I had to think about it.

Dark Archive

I used to do -con for NPC's but the moral arguments over dying enemies took too much time and I wanted games to flow better.

Sovereign Court

Jarazix wrote:
The Paladin had a history of judging people based on race.

Pathfinder's set up that way.

Gnolls/Goblinoids/Kobolds etc are all expected to be evil all of the time. Unless you're playing in a world like the old 3.5 Eberron which bends the rules from "always" to "usually" in some of those - judging based upon such things in no way can be considered the equivelent of real world racism.

Heck - there's even a section in the PRD beneath Bugbears about the nature of goblinoid evil.

PRD wrote:

The Nature of Goblinoid Evil

Goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears, despite having superficial similarities, each represent a different face of evil. Hobgoblins are ordered and methodical in their evil, forming vast armies, warbands, and despotic nations. Goblins are the primal evil, seeking only cruelty and petty victimization as they can find it, be that among their own kind or against their neighbors. Yet the evil personified by the bugbear may be the most terrifying, for they actively seek to inflict pain and suffering in the most destructive ways possible. When a hobgoblin kills, it's because of tradition and order. When a goblin kills, it's for fun. But when a bugbear holds its blade, it kills only when it can be assured that the murder will cause maximum pain and suffering to those its weapon does not touch; to a bugbear, the true goal of murder is to strike not at the victim, but at those who held the victim dear.

(Bolded for emphasis.)


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For examples of what causes a paladin to fall see below.

The paladin burns down the orphanage because "IT ATTACKED ME FIRST!"
The paladin steals from his churches collection plate.
The paladin uses poison to kill a LG diplomat starting a war.
The paladin kidnaps a child and uses him for a sacrifice to a deity.
The paladin sides with the CE dragon against the LG town for the evulz.

Dark Archive

I have likely been too hard....but I'd say you are too easy Undone. Things like watching someone be hurt or killed without interceding ( unless hiding in a hostile land )...and a lot of less than that list things should make a paladin fall.


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Jarazix wrote:

The player rolled the action, it was phrased it attempts to touch you, but not attack, do you want to attack?

TOuching is a form of attack in PF, In several cases is even more dangerous that a weapon attack.


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Man, I haven't seen one of these in like a week or so...


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Jarazix wrote:

I have likely been too hard....but I'd say you are too easy Undone. Things like watching someone be hurt or killed without interceding ( unless hiding in a hostile land )...and a lot of less than that list things should make a paladin fall.

As a general rule if you have to ask "Should a paladin fall" the answer is nearly always No.

Inaction cannot cause a paladin to fall. If this was the case every paladin world wide would instantly fall when someone starved to death.

Actions which the paladin are tricked/dominated/coerced into doing cannot cause the paladin to fall.

Killing evil cannot cause a paladin to fall. Even if they are surrendering. In fact torag's paladins/clerics fall if they spare a surrendering bad guy.

I've yet to see a "Paladin fall's" thread where they did anything even remotely close to provoking an actual justified fall.


Beating A Dead Horse wrote:
Man, I haven't seen one of these in like a week or so...

Did you create that account solely for this thread, if so well played.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

If I were the paladin I'd roll with it and go for Blackguard and hunt that wizard down, kill him, then hunt his spirit down in whatever afterlife it went to and keep tormenting it there forever.

Paladin feels betrayed by his god/goddess for taking away his powers because he got tricked by someone committing a major evil act and wants his revenge, Belial notices this desire and sends a servant to corrupt him further.


Please specify how the paladin attempted to ressurect the low-level 1.

If he fell, but then tried to use his spell-casting: fine, he hasn't no magic, so he obviously can't cast ressurection spells.

If he got someone else to do the casting: Then you f#%%ed up. Simple as that - ressurection doesn't work less because the guy that killed her wasn't sorry.

I mean, what if every time adventurers got killed, their party had to make the killer say he was sorry before he adventurer could be ressed? That's a nightmare right there.

Dark Archive

He tried to do it himself. I was debating if it was a "flicker" or a loss. You guys have gotten me to think "flicker"

Dark Archive

He was using the raise dead form ability of lay on hands

EDIT: He was using the raise dead ability from lay on hands

Dyslexic's of the world untie!!!


Who is the Paladins Deity?


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Jarazix wrote:

He was using the raise dead form ability of lay on hands

EDIT: He was using the raise dead ability from lay on hands

Dyslexic's of the world untie!!!

Lol

Edit: i am still curious about what spell the wizard used.


No he shouldnt fall. That would be very harsh and nothing he did in the moment was unjustified. If you woke up in the middle of the night with someone you dont know in your house your fight or flight instinct will probably take over.

The raise dead shouldnt have failed unless the wizard did something to make it fail.

Now if the paladin were to go all out revenge and abondons his god to do so he would fall. But that is a totally different thing.


Jarazix wrote:

I have likely been too hard....but I'd say you are too easy Undone. Things like watching someone be hurt or killed without interceding ( unless hiding in a hostile land )...and a lot of less than that list things should make a paladin fall.

Which is why I wont play a Paladin in any game unless I know the DM doesn't treat the code this way.

SRD wrote:

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

He didn't willingly kill his lover. He didn't change alignment. And he did nothing that would break his Code of Conduct. RAW he is completly safe from loosing his powers. Now as to the Spirit of what the Code is supposed to do....

The Paladin's Code is an RP tool. It is not a "How can I screw my player" tool. It is not meant for the DM to "Set up" situations for the Paladin to have to sacrifice his party/health/ect in order to keep following. It should only be used by the DM to monitor the players actions. As long as he is acting in a LG mannor and isn't doing horrible things you shouldn't be holding his code over his head. How is that fun at all.

Why is it some DM's want to force a player to walk on egg shells if they play a Paladin. Why do some DM's see the need to make Paladin's fall as soon as they see one is being rolled up. I've seen these post over and over. Lose, Lose situations where if the Paladin act like a rational normal individual they loose all their powers and abilities.

NO... BAD. Dont do it. Let the Paladin have fun. Let him be a Rightous Warrior for his god. Dont be "that" DM.


See, the thing about the paladin code is that people ignore that nothing can FORCE a Paladin to fall.

A paladin falls under the following conditions:
-When the Paladin ceases to be Lawful Good
-When the paladin FREELY AND WILLINGLY commits an act of great Evil
-When the paladin grossly violates his code of conduct.

Being deceived by an illusion into believing he was under attack by a monster would not, in my book, be an alignment-changing error, and does not constitute an act of evil he committed willingly or a knowing violation of his code. You can't "trick" a Paladin into falling with things like this. Dominating a Paladin to do evil won't make him fall because it's not willing evil. Deceiving him into harming someone he would normally never harm won't make him fall because it's not willing evil.

This also smacks of an extremely contrived situation, since the "touch" would constitute interaction with an illusion, meaning the Paladin is entitled to a will save to disbelieve. Hell, since the "gibberish" must itself be an auditory illusion, the paladin's entitled to a save the second the "harsh-sounding gibberish" is created, since the sound is no more real than the monster. If he's not 1st-level, the paladin's will saves should be phenomenal, so I feel like the Paladin's odds of seeing through the illusion with Divine Grace would have been pretty good unless he was denied both his will saves by the GM.

Also, how did the female paladin not know someone was putting an illusion on her? The wizard would have needed a line of sight to her, so he would have had to be fairly close by for all this to happen and yet not been overheard or otherwise noticed casting his spells.

Putting all that aside, however, it's adversarial GMing to go for the "one strike and you're out" policy on classes that can lose abilities based on how they act. You don't see a thousand and one threads about how the Barbarian must now become an Ex-Barbarian because he got along with the local guards and helped bring a criminal to justice or how being tricked into breaking an ancient law means the Monk must now stop being a monk. Paladins are held to a higher standard than most, but people are just being antagonistic when they act like the class immediately loses all its powers whenever they are less than perfectly Lawful Good at any time.


Jarazix wrote:
He tried to do it himself. I was debating if it was a "flicker" or a loss. You guys have gotten me to think "flicker"

Or... it could have simply been a simulcrum version of the lover. That would be torture enough for the paladin for the short interim. It would also help to take the former wizard's player by surprise too.

That means the wizard could have the NPC captured, in chains, and available for some other "choices" that the paladin is forced to make as he hunts down the evil wizard. You could do lots of "fun" and evil stuff with that.

Imagine...

The evil wizard sets a doomsday clock for the low level paladin's life, and informs the PC paladin of the time ticking. The evil wizards tells the paladin about the first clue and how it can be found.

- The evil wizard forces a trio of village's egg sellers to swallow a verse of a passage telling where to find the NPC paladin. Does the paladin wait or ? The passage gives information about...

- The evil wizard hires a band of thugs that will kill a family of four if they tell the paladin anything before nightfall. But, the head of the family has key information that the paladin needs. That information leads to...

- The evil wizard hides the next clue on a relic of religious importance that is at slight odds to the paladins own faith. The temple having the relic is on alert after having been broken into the night prior and having the relic violated somehow.

Etc.

This could be fun (in the right group) or downright misery (in the wrong group). You'd have to judge how for to go prior to crossing the line.

(watch a couple "Saw" movies for more inspiration, if you are into that)

Be careful. These types of adventures, designed to make the paladin fall (or make hideous decisions) can sunder a group.


So the paladin's first reaction is to go for the kill on the unarmed non-aggressive bugbear with poor communication skills?

No Detect Evil? Doesn't matter if it gave no result, didn't even try.
No Sense Motive?
No attempt of communication or diplomacy?
Just slay the ugly thing?

Replace bugbear with non-evil poor rambling smelly drunk hobo in a dark alley, and you got something similar. It *may* be a high-level assassin with a poison dagger. Who knows? Better slay it!

If the paladin's deity is cool with that, then he doesn't fall. But usually, I expect more out of my champions of good. Refusing to accept any part of the blame nor show any sign of humility is not very exemplary. He may not fall because of it, but it will be a black mark on his record.

Yes, the wizard has his share of the blame and will have to answer for it, but it's still the paladin who gave the killing blow.

What's the girlfriend's reaction to being slain by her lover in a fit of holy wrath? There's some good role playing opportunities here.


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Quote:
Replace bugbear with non-evil poor rambling smelly drunk hobo in a dark alley, and you got something similar.

Hobos are not CHAOTIC EVIL in the alignment description.


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Undone wrote:
Pathfinder is a world where some races are ALWAYS CHAOTIC EVIL.

Just to point out that isn't correct.

Dark Archive

It was simple on the how. They were all shattered drunk, and saves were rolled. It was a high level illusion spell. Mechanically everything was up and up. The wizard's dc's were 28 vs a heavily impaired paladin.

Also I asked the paladin to roll saves a few times, he knew something was up. She did not touch him, when she reached to do so, he killed her. I gave him an attack of opportunity as if it were an unarmed attack from someone without the feat. I also stated it was not an aggressive motion.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

We haven't had a "Paladin Fall" thread in what... a week now? I was beginning to lose hope.

Oh I just remembered... we've got that Dalsine Affair thread with the GM expecting to fall three Paladins.

We are blessed with riches indeed.

Sovereign Court

If as a level 14 PC I encounter a "CR 2" bugbear in my bedroom, I'm gonna assume it's got 10+ class levels. To assume differently would be reckless. It's most likely an assassin; bugbears are a perfect assassin race.

Alignment masking magic is easily available from level 3 or so. Enemies built for it will generally have unimaginably high Bluff and anti-anti-lie spells, so I'm not counting on those.

I'm not going to spend actions giving it the benefit of the doubt. It's doing something that could very well be a Save or Die spell. Any action I spend questioning its motives could be the last mistake I make.

---

As for why the Raising doesn't work; that's easy. The spirit of the deceased has to be willing to come back. If she's hurt and confused, she might not want to. If the paladin sets things right, brings the wizard to justice and so forth, she might change her mind.

Dark Archive

The wizard is a bugbear....the woman who was in there looked more like a tiefling...but it was non specific as he has virtually no knowledge skills. I described it as monstrous with horns and red claws

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Jarazix wrote:
Help would be appreciated. The last game ended this way.

Here.

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