Sorry to bother, can I get delisted from the game so it doesn't show up on my campaign tab? Thanks.
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Edit : Never mind, I think I'll just bow out. Everyone have fun.
Diatribe mode on : If I must be good at diplomacy OOC, then Wultrum's player must be good at spell casting OOC. He must have actual theoretical knowledge of how the magic works. Rehil's player must also be a thief, and understand how to disable traps and pick locks. The diplomacy skill is there to tell the GM, and the other players, how good the character performed at Diplomacy. The Roleplaying is there to give the GM an idea of what was said, and the GM should then spin the delivery based on the skill of the character, not the skill of the player. Requiring the player to be diplomatic basically requires the Player to have all the skills of the Character. I used to do the same thing, and I stopped it after I realized I was penalizing players for not being as smart/diplomatic/skilled as their characters. I have not once seen the GM demand that a player give detailed answers on how he picks a lock, or how he disables a trap. A diplomatic check indicates how well the Character conveyed the desires of the Player, and the text the Player types is an indication of how he is going about it. If the diplomacy roll is good, the character delivered the concept in such a way that it was received well. If they blow it, the character delivered the concept in such a way that it was received ill. Tal's words, by the player are the player's attempts to get across what the Player is trying to do. Tal, the Character, is diplomatic, and the GM should interpret those words in synch with the diplomatic check. The words are just words, they have no tone, no inflection, no facial expressions, nothing but text, to go with them. The same words can be said multiple ways. For example. "You are a wonderful and skilled person" can be a compliment, an insult, a wry commentary, or a deadpan mockery, depending on how they are said, the facial expressions, and so on. It also matters where the emphasis is in the sentence. If the emphasis is on You, then the implication is that a third person is not wonderful and skilled. If the emphasis is on Wonderful, the implication is that the person thinks they are skilled but horrible, and the speaker is reinforcing that they are a wonderful person. I could go on, but the idea is that the text should be intepreted based on the check, and the facial expressions, social cues, inflection, and tone of voice used to convert the text into a diplomatic statement that matches the roll. Tal's comments about war could have been wry and sardonic, indicating he didn't think Wultrum was a big threat. Tal's comments on danger to the Warden's people could be interpreted as sincere concern that someone would get hurt. Instead, the flat text is interpreted without any tone or inflection, given the worst possible meaning, and then used as a penalty to the diplomacy check. Basically, I should never post anything as text, and only ROLLPLAY rather than ROLEPLAY to avoid penalties. /diatribe
This is why the skill should be used, and not what I posted. Text is hard to interpret, in the best of times. Trying to play an alien mind, as well as diplomacy, is extremely difficult, and I'm getting frustrated with this as what I said, in my mind, was Tal trying diplomatically to point out that Wultram is off his rocker and that he was offering a way for the NPC to save face rather than forcing the issue to a fight, which Wultram is happy to give him. The GM interprets that in the worst possible way, rather than the best possible way, as it should have been based on the diplomacy skill which I sank a ton of freaking points into and the roll which was good. I'm done. I will never try to use diplomacy again because no matter what I, the player, am trying to do, whatever I type will be interpreted in the worst possible light, no matter how good I roll, and what I intend, or how good my character is at diplomacy doesn't count for squat. From now on, I'll just keep quite in character and be a heal bot.
The problem with that way of using the skill is that you require the Player to be a diplomat and have a high diplomacy skill. The Player should say the best he can, and then the roll should indicate how well he got across what he was trying to get across. What this tells me is that it doesn't matter what my diplomacy skill is, I am going to be judged based on how good a diplomat I, the player, am. Which means I'm wasting points in Diplomacy, since it's useless as what I type is what drives the diplomacy, not my character's skill in conveying what the player wants to convey. Diplomacy isn't a wonky skill, it's a skill that represents how good the character is at diplomacy, not how good the player is.
Just a question, does the 26 diplomacy do nothing? Tal was pointing out that continuing to let your pride cause strife with an outsider who has said he will hurt someone if forced to is not enough reason to place those in the city in danger. He also gave the Warden an 'out' to save face, by claiming an older law. If the skill rolls aren't going to help, I am wasting points putting points into Diplomacy. A 26 should have helped, not hindered.
Tal watches all this go on, and then turns to Eyaltaph. "I have kept my silence up until now. My companions are not happy with how we have been treated. I am very much willing to obey laws, however, we were kidnapped against our will, and brought here. Expecting them to obey the laws when you have violated your own laws bringing us here is hypocritical in the extreme. I am certain that you have laws against kidnapping, yes? Now, I have been quiet until now, but, as a General in the Dragon Armies, it is my right to enter that area, with any companions I choose. That right pre-dates your city, your culture, even your species. It is unassailable, and any attempts to interfere will be you violating laws and tennets older than any in this city, including your special visitors. I would, however, like to avoid bloodshed, both our own and others. Starting a war over your stung pride will benefit no one, and result in the death of many of your people. As a Warden, it is your responsibility to protect your people, not put them in harms way over pride. Do not force us to hurt you and yours. Give us the paper, showing you recognize my claim to access. Not because Wultrum threatened you, but because the ancient laws require it. This is a city of law, obey the laws that predate it. Do not like Wultrum, but do respect his power, and find a way to follow the law and protect your people."
I posted, just busy.
Tal nods. "I think it is."
Tal tilts his head, and then chuffs loudly. "Companion Rehil, you have no sense of humor."
Tal ducks his head, and looks at the Wardens, then at his companions, then shakes his head. "Excuse me, you obviously arent't pushing them hard enough." He waves at Rehil. "This one has barely any bruises at all, if you've properly trained him, he should be the color of a ripe Quatcha fruit, all purple with black spots." Then he nods at Cole. "I don't see even one bruise on this one, if you didn't bruise him, you didn't try nearly hard enough." He chuffs under his breath.
Library: Tal will sigh and then thank the librarians. "Thank you very much. If you are not opposed, I will also look through the books you have on dragon prophecy. I may have a unique perspective. The Ancient one was somewhat talkative between battles. I believe even the dragons were weary of the war at the end."
Condolences here as well. Sorry, been swamped at work.
Library: Tal shakes his head. "I did not ask for those, although I would be interested, and I believe my rank and position in the Draconic Armies would entitle me to such things. However, first I asked for histories in Draconic, Kasatha, and Celestial, as well as any books on Kasatha." He repeats his request slowly, to ensure that there is no confusion this time.
Yep, you read it right. I figured we could probably trade the reagents plus 400gp to a ring maker for an already made ring. Once we get out of dragon town.
Stuff in Yellow is new stuff. Not sure Naverren can make the ring. May have to trade crafting material he swipes for it later on when we can do trading. Everything else he should be able to make. Phylactery is the only one that's even marginally difficult (+5 to DC for not being a 10th level cleric).
Sad to hear that. :( I'll have my equipment later today.
"I would like books, in Kasatha, Draconic, or Celestial, on general history, and any books on the Kasatha." Tal says in response.
"The dragon who was killed was still alive in that contraption, despite it being attached to him internally and externally, I would say that trying to give an arm like yours to a human like Nalvarren would seem very similar to putting machinery into a dragon."
Adding heavyload to a belt is RAW, so in this case, you're house ruling away from RAW. As I said, I'm fine with that, I'm even fine with it being mentioned as it comes up. I just don't want to find out you house rule something like 'cat fall boots are silly' after I've bought cat fall boots and had them on my character for several months. As long as you're fully up front about it being a house rule, I have no issues with it.
It is listed, however, per the devs, it's an example item of how to use the rules. I just want to confirm whether we can combine or not. If STR/DEX belts are allowed, then other combos should be allowed as well using the same rules. If not, that's fine, but if we're house ruling the rules, I want specifics on it. I'm a big believer in the GM house ruling the rules if he wants, I do it all the time. I'm not a big believer in the GM house ruling rules and then not telling the players about it until way later in the game. I've quit games over that. (I had a character I played for over a year on the boards who had 'cat fall boots' the whole time, then when he finally used them, the GM told him he found them 'silly' and said he couldn't use them because they weren't allowed in his game for sillyness reasons. House rule all you want, but be up front about them with the players ahead of time so they know what they are getting into is all I ask.). All I'm looking for, since it's come up, is a specific 'This is the house ruling around magic items'.
Should we also assume, since slotless and tattoo's are not allowed, that the rules for combined magic items are not allowed either? For example, a +2 STR/Heavyload belt, or a +2 STR/+2 DEX belt?
Sorry everyone, with the updates off, I was having to dedicate my time to the games I ran. I just can't see Tal taking items from the Dragons. With GM permission, assuming Nalvarren is ok with it, would it be ok if he only got items that Nalvarren can make using the broken down value from the Dragon Hoard? Then Nalvarren can take more from the dragons to equalize? If not, then Tal will just go without for awhile.
"Well, for now, there's not a great deal of choice. However, we should keep our eyes open, and not get stuck into the idea that this is the only way. I think Wultrums research in the libraries is still worth persuing. Also, given the dragon prophecy in the chasm, that may give us an idea."
Hmm, so just buy a slotless item and it's not a tattoo then. :) Same cost to have a tattoo as a slotless item.
Inner Sea Magic - Magical Tattoos As to the slots, up to you. :) Just wanted to know. How about something in between? Tal could wear four rings, but only have two active at a time? Same with armbands?
I may have asked this before, but not sure. 1) Are magic tattoo's allowed? Basically slotless item (double cost) with slot restrictions 2) Can Tal wear 4 rings since he has 4 hands? 2 armbands?
Tal turns to the construct. "Trust that is given without thought or reason is less than worthless. It is dangerous, for it gives one who has not shown they are trustworthy the same deference that one who has proved themselves, meaning that an enemy can infiltrate your number and disrupt your allies because you foolishly trusted them without reason. This is not to say that everyone must be instantly treated as an enemy, it means you must judge people based on their words and actions, and be judicious in how much trust you put into them until you have tested their trustworthyness. It means that it is unreasonable to expect someone to trust you until you have proven yourself. I do not expect anyone here to trust me because I say they should. I hope they will do so after they have heard my words, observed my actions, and considered it thoughtfully." He looks curious. "What are 'dust lords'?" When Cole turns light, Tal chuffs in amusement. "I expect to outrun the skeleton to be honest..."
"Companion Wultrum is correct. If you take their gear, be aware that they can likely trace you with it. Scrying on you, or using it to find you if they want to eliminate you. In the war, high ranking officers were all marked by senior wizards so they could be tracked if need be." Tal warns Rehil and those taking the equipment. "I do not think the arcane marks would survive Companion Nalverren's process of disassembly though, so if you do take equipment from the dragons, I would suggest that you have him slowly dismantle all equipment and rebuild it as quickly as he is able. Even if it slows us slightly, it might be worth it in the long run."
Tal shakes his head. "I'm not sulky, I fully expected you to take gold over common sense." He chuffs. "I am just making sure that I can tell you that I warned you later." He chuffs again.
I think you just craft at night and get half credit in camp. It'll tkae longer, but we'll get what we need. If nothing else, we have the boat trip back for crafting as well.
"I never said I was not going to do what I need to do. I simply question the wisdom of letting dragons, whose purpose and hidden desires we do not know, become involved. For all we know, they wish to find out how to replicate what happened at Da'Sheth. Or they were responsible and now that we've survived, they are trying to figure out how. Or they are competitors with those who caused Da'Sheth. Blindly following their lead is as foolish as ignoring what happened. They have shown they cannot be trusted. It would be one thing if someone approached us openly and wanted to help us, but even then, I would be suspicious. Trust is earned, not given. And these have done nothing to earn it, and everything to lose it. Your assumptions are feeble. If you wish to take the Dragon Gold, by all means, take as much as you want. But I warn you, once you take a Dragon's gold, you are the Dragon's Property. Until you die... and even thereafter..." He taps his armor. "Even death cannot prevent the demands of an oath to a Dragon from demanding your soul. Think on that before you become so eager to be the property of those."
"This isn't their city, Nalverren, they just barged in and showed their true forms and impressed the locals and talked them into letting them work out of this place." Tal corrects Nalverren. "And as to being childish, if you mean my earlier insulting of them, that was intentional to push them and see what they were going to do. Based on their actions, and their lies, I see no reason you would trust them to do anything more than use you like a tool and discard you the first moment you become less than useful."
Tal chuffs. "Odd that we agree on so much while disagreeing on so much."
Tal nods, and looks up at the sky. "Well, two things. One, there is a dragon prophecy in the chasm, which is mildly dangerous to visit. Companion Wultrum and I were thinking we should go visit it, as we may get some insight into what the dragons want. However, given it is dangerous, we thought it would be best to take you all along with us so there is someone slower than us should we need to run away from anything." He chuffs in amusement. "Seriously, it could be of use to us. And I suspect we'll need to some time for the bribes to arrive." Then he sighs. "And two... Does anyone know what happened to the moon that's missing? I've been looking for weeks and it's just gone..."
"They want something else, dragons never tell you the whole truth, even the honorable ones." Tal warns. "Also assume they may decide you are a loose scale in one of their machinations. Unless you know who they are, and know their outlook on others."
I don't usually bother tracking the XP, we're all getting the same stuff, so we'll all level up at the same time. So I just level when everyone else does. So I can't really confirm. As to the dragons bribes, everyone should keep in mind that anything from them is probably going to carry either some arcane mark they can track, or possibly additional enchantments they don't mention.
Once the others rejoin Tal and Wultram, he bows to the child, and excuses himself and his companions, thanking her for her time. He motions his head to a large open area nearby, and once they are all isolated he huffs. "So, we found out the smarmy ones were dragons, if I'd known, I'd have tried even harder to insult them. Knowing they are dragons, I'm assuming that as soon as I left, their egos went even further out of control, and they began to let more slip than they would have otherwise." He chuffs in amusement. "It is good to know that some things don't change, anything less than an Ancient Dragon has a built in weakness, their own ego. So, what machinations are they after? I'm sure they insulted you, and us, and then explained how they were much smarter than all of us, claimed some honor that an ancestor did since they haven't actually done anything important, and then bribed you to do their bidding?"
Outside: Tal gives Wultrum a look. "So, not forbidden, just dangerous. I think it might be a good idea if we get the others and go visit, it may give us a clue." He digs in his pack and pulls out another apple and gives it to the girl. "Thank you, little one."
Outside: Pausing, Tal turns back to the girl. "Sorry, my companion and I often forget others are around when we discuss philosophy. The chasm?"
Outside: Tal nods his head. "I know your belief on this, you've stated it before. It is why I had faith that you would see through the self deception that the dragons bespake, for you live and breath it yourself, and therefore are an expert at seeing through it, at least in others. Evil is evil, Good is good. Yes, there are actions that are neither inherently good or evil, and there are actions that can be good or evil depending on the circumstances. I have never argued other. There are some things, however, that are always Evil. Perverting the natural order is always Evil, and summoning ravening Evil into the world, even if you control it for a short time, and perform some actions that, by the taint, become 'gray', is still Evil. However, the gods have set us to work together for the duration. I assume because they see something in you worth salvaging, and hope that I will be able to redeem you. Or at the very least, feel that you should have the chance of being redeemed, so until their will is manifest, so long as you control your Evil, I will simply guard against it's being unleashed." He chuffs softly.
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