My players just don't care.


Savage Tide Adventure Path


My group has gone through the first session and it seems that the players just aren't interested. My group has several problems.
1. Our party consists of a NE druid, a CE ninja and a LE monk.
2. When the player recovered the blue Nixie they demanded more money saying "we could sell this ship on the black market for more gp" and it took some out of game "persuasion" to get the to accept 500 gp each.
3. The druids player constantly makes bad jokes about having ranks in profession (hooker), how Soller Vark looks like a rapeist, how he rips Lavinia's clothes off with his sword, etc. that make it hard to concentrate on the game.
4. The monks player doesn't play his character like a monk (even an evil one). He is the most greedy of the characters, he goes back on his word and he doesn't act lawful.
5. The ninja (and his player) hates anything constant (thus he has refused Lavinia's offer to become her bodyguards and troubleshooters, will probably not join the lotus dragons and hate Lavinia because shes a permanent employer).
6. When the players first met Vanthus they basically said "just another obstacle in our path" and did not hate him in the least (so I cant motivate them there).
What can I do to motivate these players (and their characters).

Shadow Lodge

Soccer Zone wrote:
1. Our party consists of a NE druid, a CE ninja and a LE monk.

That seems to be your primary problem. All the others (except #3) seem to flow from that.

Soccer Zone wrote:
2. When the player recovered the blue Nixie they demanded more money saying "we could sell this ship on the black market for more gp" and it took some out of game "persuasion" to get the to accept 500 gp each.

It's unlikely that they could even sell it on the black market - it's a little big and noticable...

Soccer Zone wrote:
5. The ninja (and his player) hates anything constant (thus he has refused Lavinia's offer to become her bodyguards and troubleshooters, will probably not join the lotus dragons and hate Lavinia because shes a permanent employer).

It seems like he's playing CE rather well to me....

Soccer Zone wrote:
6. When the players first met Vanthus they basically said "just another obstacle in our path" and did not hate him in the least (so I cant motivate them there).

If the players have attachments, etc, then Vanthus could make it personal. IMC, one of the players owns a bar and the Lotus Dragons tried to torch it. That sort of thing.

Soccer Zone wrote:
What can I do to motivate these players (and their characters).

I seriously doubt you actually can motivate the characters to continue the adventure path. If the players hate the NPCs and/or situation, it's a lost cause. The adventures in Savage Tide seem to require an element of selflessness that evil PCs are unlikely to be able to muster. Also, given the way they've treated Lavinia (#3 could reasonably be taken in-game as "the druid is always leering at Lavinia"), do you think she'd want to hire them?

I'm going to venture that your campaign is already off-the-rails. I'd suggest having Lavinia cut ties with them and let them do some no-adventure path stuff, since they want to accumulate wealth and rampage around. Perhaps the players will work out their evil character urges and be willing to pick up as a more responsible, non-evil group of adventures that Lavina hires for more reliable service....

Liberty's Edge

You could do the adventure with the intelligent swords in Dungeon #149 I think it was....
We're doing it in Dark Sun via pbp right now. They sound perfect for that one. ;)

meh.....5th lvl pc's....war of the wielded; don't know if it'd work.


Finding motivation for PCs is part of the Players responsability. Talk to your players about COOPERATION. If your hooks are obvious, then players should go for them. It seems to me that the players are struggling with you as the dm. If they don't want to play together and with you then maybe they should play some solo computer game instead of D&D.

Have a talk with them about cooperation, with you and other players. Just because the characters are evil doesn't mean they can't cooperate with the dm. It might mean the evil PCs will have to be more creative in finding motivation to "help" Lavinia. Maybe by gaining her confidence and support the individual PCs can grow in influence and power within Sassarine. But more importantly be direct about cooperation, it's the key in table top RPGs. If they want to go alone and do there own thing and not cooperate with the dm then they should go play WoW.

Sovereign Court

Soccer Zone wrote:

My group has gone through the first session and it seems that the players just aren't interested. My group has several problems.

1. Our party consists of a NE druid, a CE ninja and a LE monk.
2. When the player recovered the blue Nixie they demanded more money saying "we could sell this ship on the black market for more gp" and it took some out of game "persuasion" to get the to accept 500 gp each.
3. The druids player constantly makes bad jokes about having ranks in profession (hooker), how Soller Vark looks like a rapeist, how he rips Lavinia's clothes off with his sword, etc. that make it hard to concentrate on the game.
4. The monks player doesn't play his character like a monk (even an evil one). He is the most greedy of the characters, he goes back on his word and he doesn't act lawful.
5. The ninja (and his player) hates anything constant (thus he has refused Lavinia's offer to become her bodyguards and troubleshooters, will probably not join the lotus dragons and hate Lavinia because shes a permanent employer).
6. When the players first met Vanthus they basically said "just another obstacle in our path" and did not hate him in the least (so I cant motivate them there).
What can I do to motivate these players (and their characters).

Yuck, that's an awful situation. This is why the vast majority of DMs don't allow evil PCs. Personally I wouldn't bother trying.

I have to ask the questions: how long have your players been playing and have any of them ever tried DMing?

I firmly believe that D&D is a game of give and take. Players (no matter if they're playing good or evil PCs) have a responsibility to play along with the story. Mocking the story, refusing to interact, and otherwise 'blocking' the DM's attempt tell a story are cardinal sins of bad RPing IMO. Personally I'd either start over, hand over the DM reigns to another player, or do the near unthinkable, have Vanthus kill the PCs off and have them make new (good aligned) PCs.


Guy Humual wrote:

Yuck, that's an awful situation. This is why the vast majority of DMs don't allow evil PCs. Personally I wouldn't bother trying.

I have to ask the questions: how long have your players been playing and have any of them ever tried DMing?

Gamer maturity is important in letting an evil Pc. There are some players I will let play evil PC, because they can do it with out destroying the party and the game. But most players can't do it. Evil is so self destructive even in the context of meta gaming.

Liberty's Edge

I say stick the adventure to them. Make them care.
Don't sit back and let them decide, "I think I want to join the Lotus Dragons, I don't know yet...."
They just jacked with the Lotus Dragons' business.
First have a Lotus Dragon tell them that THEY ARE SELLING THAT SHIP TO THE LOTUS DRAGONS. AND THEY'RE SELLING IT FOR 300 G.P. BE DOWN AT THE DOCKS AT MIDNITE WITH THE TITLE.
Then, have the Lotus Dragons try to whack them. Make them bleed a little. Make them so mad at the Lotus Dragons they want to hunt them down.

Sovereign Court

Sir Kaikillah wrote:
Guy Humual wrote:

Yuck, that's an awful situation. This is why the vast majority of DMs don't allow evil PCs. Personally I wouldn't bother trying.

I have to ask the questions: how long have your players been playing and have any of them ever tried DMing?

Gamer maturity is important in letting an evil Pc. There are some players I will let play evil PC, because they can do it with out destroying the party and the game. But most players can't do it. Evil is so self destructive even in the context of meta gaming.

Yep, IMO this isn't a problem created by evil PCs, and this is a problem created by poor playing on the part of the players. I agree absolutely with everything you've said. I also believe that it takes an experienced player to play an evil PC.

The Exchange

I am gonna say something here that may be interesting or not.
I don't think the problem is the PCs that the players chose. Your players sound like Arses. Big Jerk Rude Bastards. You have gone through the trouble and setup of running a game for thier enjoyment and they refuse to bite on any hooks and seem to just want to disrupt everything you are doing. The PCs may be evil, but your players are Di*ks.
Tell them that unless they start finding a motivation for their PCs that the adventure carries on without them and they can retire their characters because they have nothing to do. Your job is to provide a feasible amount of reasons for them to play the game. You did. If they don't wanna bite, then screw it. Tell one of them to run something. The Path provides motivations for both good and evil parties which is rare in an adventure, yet alone a path. I don't understand why they decided to refuse to participate but if they don't then end the campaign and tell them that you will if they don't work at becoming part of the game.
DMing is a fun but tough job and if the players are refusing to help you deliver fun to them then F them.
IMO of course.
FH


Heathansson wrote:

I say stick the adventure to them. Make them care.

Don't sit back and let them decide, "I think I want to join the Lotus Dragons, I don't know yet...."
They just jacked with the Lotus Dragons' business.
First have a Lotus Dragon tell them that THEY ARE SELLING THAT SHIP TO THE LOTUS DRAGONS. AND THEY'RE SELLING IT FOR 300 G.P. BE DOWN AT THE DOCKS AT MIDNITE WITH THE TITLE.
Then, have the Lotus Dragons try to whack them. Make them bleed a little. Make them so mad at the Lotus Dragons they want to hunt them down.

Agreed. It's the only way to deal with evil characters in campaigns- find something they care about and threaten to take it away from them. What's the one thing evil characters care about the most? Themselves!

Dark Archive

Soccer Zone wrote:


1. Our party consists of a NE druid, a CE ninja and a LE monk.

Why would you allow this if you were going to run an adventure path?

Plus, why do the pcs want anything to do with eachother?

Liberty's Edge

NE druid, huh? Make sure the Yellow Lotus is doing something bad to the environment.

Sovereign Court

If they were playing in character they would have already killed each other by now.


Even if the players weren't acting like @#!hats, they're still evil. If you're hell bent on running this thing with these characters, try the demonic patron angle: perhaps Malcanthet (via one of her agents)approaches your players early on and makes them an offer they can't refuse. Or Pazazu, or Orcus, or any number of powerful, evil beings who wouldn't mind seeing Demogorgon go down. At any rate, the usual motivations--it's the right thing to do and these people need you--probably isn't going to work.

Dark Archive

I disagree with the idea of trying to force the AP on them, ESPECIALLY Savage Tide. Of all of the APs Savage Tide requires to most amount of railroading (to put it bluntly) and it sounds like your party wants to go off an do their own thing. Just freeform the game for now and run other stuff thats more appropriate to their alignments and motivations.

Your players do sound like 10 year olds though...profession (Hooker)?

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I agree with most voices here. It's a players problem, probably including yourself.

If they don't want to play D&D, then you should find some other game mates. And from your side, try to discuss with your players what kind of [D&D] game are you all going to play before playing it.

In my own case, I've never called again for a game those guys that acted like your players in my highschool game. We're still friends and they're nice people, but I don't want them in my D&D game, even if I play as a player instead of DMing.

Aritz

EDIT: As said before by some boardmates, IMO, evil characters without mature goals are boring and funstopping for everyone.


I think it's pretty clear from your desciption that these player's don't have the attention span to play an entire AP. Even if you managed to motivate them somehow, the campaign will probably crash and burn at some point just because the players lost interest. My advice is to give up on the AP and continue with one-shots instead.

Now, it is not your fault that this situation occured, or even the players. It's just that playing an adventure path requires commitment, both from the players and the DM. If the players aren't prepared to commit to the campaign there's really nothing you can do about it.


sounds like your players just arent into it. I would speak with them out og game. ask if they are actually interested in following the story line of the adventure path? if so have them make new characters that fit the story better. if not, then ignore the AP and just go with what they want to do.
I suggest planescape, its a great setting for evil characters and it can be connected to any game. maybe the next door they all step through leads to Sigil?


Pete Apple wrote:
If they were playing in character they would have already killed each other by now.

Not true. What is it with most people and this mind set?

Why do people think that evil kills “everything” randomly? Evil Characters can have structure, can work together, and can have goals within a campaign. For instance: The Scarlet Brotherhood.

The problem is when players get evil characters they start to think it's their god given right to abuse it to it’s fullest. This doesn’t mesh at all with the STAP, you should talk to your players about this but you should also make a point of explaining that strictly lawful good (Paladin-eqse) aren’t the best idea either. As they’ve need to be doing things later which will stretch a code of conduct. Find a happy medium.

But over all it sounds like you have a pick up group, I suggest talking to them first and if that doesn’t work try looking for other players. After all if you’ve talked to them and they don’t agree, then you’ve done all you really could. No reason for YOU not to have fun, after all that’s what you’re playing the game for right?


Soccer Zone wrote:
What can I do to motivate these players (and their characters).

It sounds like your players would rather be thieving pirates than do-gooders. Luckily, STAP can accommodate that if needed. Maybe just anticipate their mercenary attitude and give them more of a financial incentive to follow the intended path (maybe offer them more bribes while lowering the treasure during adventures, or describe the BBEG's as having phat loot).

If they are getting out of hand in their lawlessness, impose logical consequences: like high level NPC's ambushing them and killing them or throwing them in jail. Don't hold back. Once one hangs from the gallows, subsequent PC's might get the message.

And if they are playing in a style that you are not comfortable with (which would certainly be the case for me here), tell them outright.

The Exchange

To each their own and all that, but I don't think I'd game with this group. I have no problem with evil characters if done properly, but I get the impression that even if these guys were playing good characters, they'd still be jack@$$es.

If their your pals, fine and dandy, but they don't sound like a lot of fun to me. Either they want to play the game, or they don't. You can't MAKE them.

Just like almost any other social activity, it's only as fun as the people you're engaging in it with. The best game in the world, rpg or otherwise, can be ruined with a bad group, and a great group can make a lame game enjoyable.

To put it judiciously, I don't think you have a "great group". :)


Fiendish Dire Weasel wrote:
To put it judiciously, I don't think you have a "great group".

Or possibly a great group, but not so great for STAP.


Sben wrote:
Or possibly a great group, but not so great for STAP.

I agree with this and other posts along the same lines. Try something different that will not be ruined by their current style of play. Hopefully they will mature or get the nihilistic desires out of their system and you can move on to something more sophisticated like the Paizo adventure paths.

If you still want to run an epic adventure path try out the 3.0 adventure path. The story is still decent and the party can go about it any way they choose for the most part. The series is Sunless Citadel, Forge of Fury, Speaker in Dreams, Standing Stone, Heart of Nightfang Spire, Deep Horizon, Lord of the Iron Fortress and Bastion of Broken Souls. With a few stumbling blocks that you should watch out for, the whole game could work no matter what the party's motivation is.


EATERoftheDEAD wrote:
Sben wrote:
Or possibly a great group, but not so great for STAP.
I agree with this and other posts along the same lines.

Hmm... I would've thought the opposite. i.e.:

1) The group sounds lousy
2) Compared to other campaigns, STAP seems more easily adaptable to thieving, pirate types.

But maybe not.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
Sir Kaikillah wrote:

Finding motivation for PCs is part of the Players responsability. Talk to your players about COOPERATION. If your hooks are obvious, then players should go for them. It seems to me that the players are struggling with you as the dm. If they don't want to play together and with you then maybe they should play some solo computer game instead of D&D.

Have a talk with them about cooperation, with you and other players. Just because the characters are evil doesn't mean they can't cooperate with the dm. It might mean the evil PCs will have to be more creative in finding motivation to "help" Lavinia. Maybe by gaining her confidence and support the individual PCs can grow in influence and power within Sassarine. But more importantly be direct about cooperation, it's the key in table top RPGs. If they want to go alone and do there own thing and not cooperate with the dm then they should go play WoW.

I agree with everything you said here. I also think this is why evil parties do not work well and especially with an adventure path that is designed to stop the evil. When they get to the high level part of the path they may just join the BBEG and destroy the world or whatever a good party would be trying to start.

I think that with a party like this you almost have to throw out the back story motivations and maybe use the encounters in a whole different way with new motivations that appeal to the evil.

I personally think that the game is designed to be heroic and not to be the BBEG in the world.


I've always maintained that a LE character that doesn't disrupt the party is a LE character being well-played... and a CE character that doesn't disrupt the party isn't doing a good job of being CE at all.

That said, it sounds to me like the problem here is that your players picked alignments matching the way they want to play. (The exception here, of course, is the monk; he'd probably play CE, but he wanted to play a monk and monks have to be lawful.) In my experience, making them play good characters will result in a party being played completely contrary to their alignments. (This is why I laugh at DMs who outlaw evil characters. They aren't outlawing a kind of character, they're outlawing a kind of player.) Heroic adventures simply won't draw this party; you'll need to dramatically alter their hooks, and possibly the campaign, to capture their interest. My suggestion? Instead of having them fighting against evil, have them fight for evil. Give them the option to fight for Demogorgon, siege cities, conquer countries, and gain immesurable wealth and power in the process, and they'll fall over themselves agreeing.


Big mistake allowing an evil party, especially in a 12-issue adventure path. That sort of thing might work in a one-shot game, but not in a long-term campaign. I know some folks think it's "kewl" to play evil PCs, but judging from the OP, gaming sessions are aggravating at best.

A druid with ranks in profession (hooker)? What nonsense is that? Is that supposed to be some out-of-game joke?

I'll never allow players to run evil PCs. In my opinion, there's no such thing as an evil party of adventurers. Sure, Darl and his gang from "Library of Last Resort" might be an example, but they haven't "adventured" together for years, and it's clear that Darl is using them all for his own schemes. I just don't want that flavor at the table, where players (not PCs) are thinking of ways to get over on each other. That mentality is anathema to my games.


I was about to reply, but then I realized I would simply be contributing to a hijack into the blood war of alignment arguments.

It might be best if we avoid the topic of whether PCs should be permitted to be evil or not; these PCs are, and we should try to find a way to engage them without simply saying "Sorry, you can't play your characters anymore."

...Actually, the more I think about this, the more I belive that this thread might not have any directions to go that don't lead down the path of blood war arguments.


Matthew Vincent wrote:
EATERoftheDEAD wrote:
Sben wrote:
Or possibly a great group, but not so great for STAP.
I agree with this and other posts along the same lines.

Hmm... I would've thought the opposite. i.e.:

1) The group sounds lousy
2) Compared to other campaigns, STAP seems more easily adaptable to thieving, pirate types.

But maybe not.

I don't think so. Compared to SCAP and AOWs, STAP is pretty tightly scripted. The only way I could see an evil party working here is for the players and the DM to sit down before the game and work out, ahead of time, how their going to make this work. There are a couple of options, their all secretly thralls of demons, for example, or maybe their some how indebted to Lavina (their paying off cosmic karma maybe?) etc. For evil to work with this story line its going to have to be something of a co-operative effort with the DM.

Even then I don't particularly recommend it for a whole party 'cause I think Lavina's story line is better served by having a good party but I suppose it could be done. If their just motivated by power its going to fall apart - to many damsel (or gnome) in distress moments in the AP. Also the motivation for the PCs to do X or Y is often fear of the shadow pearls but most evil characters won't really care.

I'd not allow evil characters into an AP unless the players where pretty experienced and willing to help me come up with why it is they have no choice but to follow the story line. If the goal is just to be awesome and gain power then maybe you ought to skip the AP and find out what it is they want to do - probably either throw their wight around in the city or loot dungeons - then give it to them. Everyone will derive much more enjoyment from the game this way.


Burrito Al Pastor wrote:
(This is why I laugh at DMs who outlaw evil characters. They aren't outlawing a kind of character, they're outlawing a kind of player.)

Thats the best part of outlawing evil PCs.

Dark Archive

Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:


I don't think so. Compared to SCAP and AOWs, STAP is pretty tightly scripted.

You basically beat me to the punch on this one. Before I start my rant I'll say that I really like Savage Tide as a campaign. It's just that of all the APs Savage Tide basically calls for the greatest amount of railroading to get from A to Z. All the APs require a certain amount of willingness to follow the story by players, but this exists in much lesser degrees in the previous two installments. For example, there is a high chance my PCs in the Shackled City campaign are heading to the Demonskar long before it ever comes up in the actual timeline of the AP. This is okay though because SC is set-up with the DM already knowing where all the pieces of the puzzle are and can improvise using that information.

On the other hand, Savage Tide pretty much requires certain things to happen in a certain order or the PCs are going to ruin an adventure or end up massively under/over-powered. A PC can have max ranks in proffession (sailor) and roll a natural 20 and have spells that give them a circumstance bonus and still their ship will crash (*toot**toot*). PCs CAN'T just take a folding boat or turn into sea creatures to swim to Farshore, they HAVE to trudge through the island (*toot**toot*). PCs NEED to want to help Farshore or they never learn about the Kopru city, or the shadow pearls. PCs HAVE to ally with demon lords or they can't go against the big bad.

The idea that Savage Tide is a "pirate" campaign is as true as saying Age of Worms is a campaign centered around Diamond Lake. The statements are true only for about the first 6 levels and then it becomes less and less accurate.

Scarab Sages

Burrito Al Pastor wrote:
(This is why I laugh at DMs who outlaw evil characters. They aren't outlawing a kind of character, they're outlawing a kind of player.)

Hoody Hoo!

I kill 2 birds with one stone!

Dark Archive

At this point we've probably left behind the original topic of this thread, but since the OP hasn't responded to any of our comments I suppose it's okay.

I personally allow evil PCs in my campaigns most because the best campaigns I've had have involved evil PCs, however let me explain how it was handled...

First, mortals in my campaign worlds have no alignment, they aren't LE, NG, LN or anything else that can be detected or smote (there are exceptions). Instead I ask my players to give their PCs motivations and personalities and to just role-play from there. Abstracts like Law/Chaos/Good/Evil ony come in to play when dealing with outsiders, undead, gods, and a mortal channelling the power of any of those previous entities. What this leads to is a couple of things.

1) Clerics end up with an alignment close to their god which they must stick to because its the word of their diety, NOT because its some alignment their character just randomly has.

2) People that constantly summon or raise evil undead/outsiders will eventually be tainted by such an act and will become "evil".

3) Spells that detect evil won't pick up your local crook, or even a powerful wizard with bad intentions, but it will give you a warning when something really bad is coming because only really bad stuff can be detected.

4) Most importantly, PCs are not forced to take upsurd actions to stick to some kind of abstract alignment that no realistic human-being will ever actually fit into.

With this system in place, "evil" PCs are a lot easier to have because they don't act stupid. All my evil PCs have been in campaigns with mostly heroic parties. They were role-played excellently and often-times tricked the other PCs into doing things that only furthered their own ends. So yes, players that play evil characters are not all dicks, nor are they bad role-players. Unfortunately it appears the players mentioned in the OP's game are just dicks.


Ninjack wrote:
Soccer Zone wrote:
1. Our party consists of a NE druid, a CE ninja and a LE monk.

That seems to be your primary problem. All the others (except #3) seem to flow from that. Nice observation. I am highly considering not allowing evil now.

Soccer Zone wrote:
2. When the player recovered the blue Nixie they demanded more money saying "we could sell this ship on the black market for more gp" and it took some out of game "persuasion" to get the to accept 500 gp each.

It's unlikely that they could even sell it on the black market - it's a little big and noticable...

Whoops I should have been more perceptive.

Soccer Zone wrote:
5. The ninja (and his player) hates anything constant (thus he has refused Lavinia's offer to become her bodyguards and troubleshooters, will probably not join the lotus dragons and hate Lavinia because shes a permanent employer).

It seems like he's playing CE rather well to me....

I will probably make him play CN or at least NE now.

Soccer Zone wrote:
6. When the players first met Vanthus they basically said "just another obstacle in our path" and did not hate him in the least (so I cant motivate them there).

If the players have attachments, etc, then Vanthus could make it personal. IMC, one of the players owns a bar and the Lotus Dragons tried to torch it. That sort of thing.

My players are bad roleplayers. They have no attachments accept themselves.

Soccer Zone wrote:
What can I do to motivate these players (and their characters).

I seriously doubt you actually can motivate the characters to continue the adventure path. If the players hate the NPCs and/or situation, it's a lost cause. The adventures in Savage Tide seem to require an element of selflessness that evil PCs are unlikely to be able to muster. Also, given the way they've treated Lavinia (#3 could reasonably be taken in-game as "the druid is always leering at Lavinia"), do you think she'd want to hire them?

I'm going to venture that your campaign is already off-the-rails. I'd suggest having Lavinia cut ties with them and let them do some no-adventure path stuff, since they want to accumulate wealth and rampage around. Perhaps the players will work out their evil...

I know that but Ill try anyway.


I agree that evil characters are not the type of group STAP (as a heroic fantasy adventure path) was designed for, and that may have contributed to the feeling like you've let the wolves have their way with your adventure. There are two things I would recommend doing.

First, sit down with your players and tell them that this kind of gameplay doesn't fit into this kind of campaign. Just because heroes are more suited to STAP than self-serving "villains" doesn't mean that everyone can't still have a good time. They may be getting their kicks joshing with the NPCs at the table, but if that's all the gaming group you're with now wants to do, you should either find a new gaming group, or ask them to keep all dialogue "in the dungeon" (means anything they say is always in character--not easy, and not really as much fun for most of the players I play with.)

Second, if they're willing to work with you, have them make new characters, and from what it sounds like the capacity of the group might be for playing playable evil characters, I'd just stick with good-aligned choices. (Good-aligned characters are by definition more likely to do the "right thing" in the face of adversity.) Either start the adventure from scratch, or lead a plot hook back into where you left off. Lavinia could hire a new set of heroes, after her bad experience with the last crew. You might even make the last group of PCs into villains down the road.


For those who say this AP is a heroic campaign, the Savage Tide does have a small sidebar that explains the characters can join Rowyn and the Lotus Dragons and "be evil." This, of course, takes a little more preparation on the DMs part.

However, the OP even mentioned that his party isn't likely to join the Lotus Dragons (any details on why not?), which makes the whole thing even more difficult.

The only thing I can think of is to get them to join the Scarlet Brotherhood and have them be the backing to the trip to Farshore.


lin_fusan wrote:

For those who say this AP is a heroic campaign, the Savage Tide does have a small sidebar that explains the characters can join Rowyn and the Lotus Dragons and "be evil." This, of course, takes a little more preparation on the DMs part.

However, the OP even mentioned that his party isn't likely to join the Lotus Dragons (any details on why not?), which makes the whole thing even more difficult.

The only thing I can think of is to get them to join the Scarlet Brotherhood and have them be the backing to the trip to Farshore.

actually the players cant join the lotus dragons (or any other organizations) because the Ninja (and his player) hate any permanent employer regardless of who they are.


Soccer Zone wrote:
lin_fusan wrote:

For those who say this AP is a heroic campaign, the Savage Tide does have a small sidebar that explains the characters can join Rowyn and the Lotus Dragons and "be evil." This, of course, takes a little more preparation on the DMs part.

However, the OP even mentioned that his party isn't likely to join the Lotus Dragons (any details on why not?), which makes the whole thing even more difficult.

The only thing I can think of is to get them to join the Scarlet Brotherhood and have them be the backing to the trip to Farshore.

actually the players cant join the lotus dragons (or any other organizations) because the Ninja (and his player) hate any permanent employer regardless of who they are.

so basically you have three - possibly immature - players who intend to play massively disruptive "cheap evil" characters in a long-term STAP ?

congrats....

For one - you might have, or could still use your prerogative to veto any character brought to your table, as disruptive in style, concept or background for the STAP. Which - looking at the Ninja - you should have done ( I seem to remember your plight on his background choices from another thread), and nibbed part of the problem in the bud.
Second, you might take a good hard look and ask yourself if this group (players and characters ) is honestly interested in the proceedings of the STAP. Or if anyone in the path would hire/employ them - to be honest, I don't even see Rowyn Kellani hiring them, since the characters sound like those type of psychos even a notorious, if sensible and low key outfit like the Lotus Dragons (who rely on secrecy and probably bribery/official protection) would wash their hands off.

As for the STAP being playbable with evil characters, yes it it can be, with anti-heroic characters though, who will try to save the world even be it only to protect their ill-gotten gains. Not with three loose cannons, who intend to give lip to anyone, will acknowledge no long-term commitments (can you imagine these folks doing diplomacy with teh Olmani tribes ? Thought so.... ) etc etc.

Basially my honest advice would be to consider finding a new group to run the STAP with for a more enjoyable experience.


The Ninja that the OP refers to doesn't want to work for any employer. That sounds like a problem to me in the context of both the Shackled City and Savage Tide Adventure Paths. If you were playing Age of Worms, and could make it *personal* (for example, because of a prophecy or some similar plot-device, first the Ebon Triad, and then the minions of Kyuss keep coming in waves at the PCs, so the PCs *have* to keep on reacting to that or go down) then it might be possible to in some way adapt the path to fit the PCs, as the Age of Worms AP mostly relies on the PCs doing things for themselves or because someone wants them to do a quick job.

I toyed briefly with the idea that maybe in the OP's game Lavinia's 'NG' alignment could be a facade, and that she's actually employing the PCs because she has designs on becoming a pirate queen herself some day, with her brother Vanthus as a rival throughout the Adventure Path, (maybe she's secretly into Grazzt worship, fuelling the sibling rivalry, since Grazzt doesn't get on with Demogorgon too well) but this would still likely fall on the stumbling block that the Ninja won't want to work long-term for anyone.

If an adjustment of the player roster or of PC mindset is out of the question, I'd recommend that the OP consider the possibilities of a switch to Age of Worms.


Soccer Zone wrote:

My group has gone through the first session and it seems that the players just aren't interested. My group has several problems.

1. Our party consists of a NE druid, a CE ninja and a LE monk.
2. When the player recovered the blue Nixie they demanded more money saying "we could sell this ship on the black market for more gp" and it took some out of game "persuasion" to get the to accept 500 gp each.
3. The druids player constantly makes bad jokes about having ranks in profession (hooker), how Soller Vark looks like a rapeist, how he rips Lavinia's clothes off with his sword, etc. that make it hard to concentrate on the game.
4. The monks player doesn't play his character like a monk (even an evil one). He is the most greedy of the characters, he goes back on his word and he doesn't act lawful.
5. The ninja (and his player) hates anything constant (thus he has refused Lavinia's offer to become her bodyguards and troubleshooters, will probably not join the lotus dragons and hate Lavinia because shes a permanent employer).
6. When the players first met Vanthus they basically said "just another obstacle in our path" and did not hate him in the least (so I cant motivate them there).
What can I do to motivate these players (and their characters).

2. as mentioned black market would require some decent rolls to locate sell. Make it too tough for them (but not impossible-there should be some chance).

3. Have malcanthet visit the druid. As mentioned above M has plans against DG, and if the druid want to know true debauchery s/he will have to work for big M.
4. have him work for the scarlet brotherhood, he may only honor his word with other brothers, but as the SB want to take over sasserine (and later farshore) he will have to do something to keep the SB happy.
5. If his job is to kill vanthus, it is only permanent on his part. It is not the STAP's fault he can not accomplish this one task (actually it is, but this works for his motivation.) Once he successful kills V he can go find a new job, but this is only one job, it just make take him 10 adventures to be able to quit. Lavinia, Rowyn, or even the artist's family may be the employer for this.
6. sure you can, as heathy and others have said, they just need the right motivation (being locked in with penku was enough for my PCs.?)

I had one DM who only allowed evil PCs if you had a good backstory for not taking out the rest of the party. It was sad that they only discovered my alignment on the day I was not there and someone else was playing my character, but everyone was impressed too and a few lights went on for some previous actions.

Find the motivation for them (something the players should do as well) and it will work out. My suggestions are to find out what they want (big M, SB, a new job) by simply asking the players.


I'm going to disagree with the assumption that the Savage Tide AP is for a good aligned party only. Through out the STAP there are morally ambiguous ways and motivations to achieve the goals set forth the STAP. The end game, developes an alliance with a number of the most foul and powerful denizens of the Abyss. The AP also offers advice for dms, if the party decides to work for Rowyena of the Lotus Dragon's. Money from the Lotus Dragons, duping a young wealthy noble woman (Lavinia's Wisdom score: 8), Revenge against Vanthus, for leaving them dead under Parrot Island, there seems to be enough to hook in an evil party, in the beggining. If your having problems now it will get worse with Sea Wyvern's Wake!


Well, the main problems this OP has is that there isn't anything so far that has grabbed the attention of his players.

I don't know how far you've gotten in the campaign, but you're up to a lot of rewriting:

1) If you haven't gone through "Bullywug Gambit," then you can have Rowyn hire them to find and kill Vanthus at Kraken's Cove.

They don't find him, so Rowyn can say they failed (make sure she has a lot of bodyguards ready). They can, if they care, offer the info on the attack on Lavinia's mansion to get the payment, so Rowyn can then hire her to help the invasion and loot the mansion.

2) From there, they can get hired by Rowyn's mom to assassinate someone on the Sea Wyvern or Blue Nixie in the "Sea Wyvern's Wake" and to mess up the situation on Farshore (for the Kellani family interests). You can rewrite things in Farshore to have the Kellani family have agents there. I'd have Avner be a patsy for the Kellani's and have the PCs be hired to make sure he becomes the governor of Farshore and usurp his uncle.

3) Hopefully, when they get to the Isle of Dread, the exploration aspect might interest him.

The Scarlett Brotherhood, Meravenchi family, Kellani family, and even agents of Malcanthet could make interesting political factions and allow the PCs multiple groups to negotiate jobs with.

4) All this will take a lot of rewriting and you'll have to redesign encounters and the adventures with two things in mind, a) they only want to kill things and b) they want money.

That's my two coppers.

Liberty's Edge

To throw in my thoughts... This triad sounds depressingly similar to a group I briefly gamed with years ago. I'm betting they don't actually want to play D&D, they want to play this thing referred to as Power Trip Fantasy. Good luck getting them to go through any AP; my bet is that you'll find it nigh-impossible to even convince them to get through a single installment without doing something like butchering some NPCs, extorting people, or generally acting on the various impulses that are forbidden in the real world.

If you desperately want to keep playing, don't expect any kind of plot to work, nor anything aspirations on their part beyond the next spate of killing and looting.


Run them through Tomb of Horrors, that might get the nihilistic attitude out of them and allow you some opportunity to have some nihilistic attitude yourself. :P


Kassil wrote:

To throw in my thoughts... This triad sounds depressingly similar to a group I briefly gamed with years ago. I'm betting they don't actually want to play D&D, they want to play this thing referred to as Power Trip Fantasy. Good luck getting them to go through any AP; my bet is that you'll find it nigh-impossible to even convince them to get through a single installment without doing something like butchering some NPCs, extorting people, or generally acting on the various impulses that are forbidden in the real world.

If you desperately want to keep playing, don't expect any kind of plot to work, nor anything aspirations on their part beyond the next spate of killing and looting.

I beg to differ. you can have a fun adventure for evil PCs, you just have to be aware of who you are dealing with and be prepared for it.

one campaign idea I have, and I can't wait till I find a group to play it with, is to have a group of CE PCs around level 4, the game begins in hell where they are waiting in line to get in, a Marilith comes along and offers them a job, as payment they get to delay the enevitable. When they die they just respawn at the back of the line, if they fu*k with the wrong NPC, odds are that NPC is a good 10 ECLs above them and can easily send them to the back of the line.
...but thats just one possibility of many.

Liberty's Edge

Someonelse wrote:

I beg to differ. you can have a fun adventure for evil PCs, you just have to be aware of who you are dealing with and be prepared for it.

one campaign idea I have, and I can't wait till I find a group to play it with, is to have a group of CE PCs around level 4, the game begins in hell where they are waiting in line to get in, a Marilith comes along and offers them a job, as payment they get to delay the enevitable. When they die they just respawn at the back of the line, if they fu*k with the wrong NPC, odds are that NPC is a good 10 ECLs above them and can easily send them to the back of the line.
...but thats just one possibility of many.

I didn't say anything about a party of evil PCs. I was referring to the players themselves. I've played a NE character who managed to get by in a party of otherwise good-aligned characters without getting strung up; my character was even friends with a LG cleric in the group. Playing evil characters isn't the problem here, I'm guessing. Players who want to run rampant and vent their 'less acceptable' impulses seem to be the problem.

Sovereign Court

Kassil wrote:
I didn't say anything about a party of evil PCs. I was referring to the players themselves. I've played a NE character who managed to get by in a party of otherwise good-aligned characters without getting strung up; my character was even friends with a LG cleric in the group. Playing evil characters isn't the problem here, I'm guessing. Players who want to run rampant and vent their 'less acceptable' impulses seem to be the problem.

The best way I explain having a great good aligned group with a evil character in it goes as follows:

Highlander with Duncan (Main character, Mr. Chivalry/Good Guy) And his long time good friend Methos (Liar, survivor, one of the 4 horsemen of the freakin apocolypse!)

Scene: Duncan whoops this chicks butt like 6 times in this episode, she trys to kill Duncans friends, tries to gank Duncan, pulls out all the stops and just wont relent. Duncan is fighting her again, this time on the beach. He disarms her and WTFPWNS her, has her at an absolute disadvantage and tells her to bugger off and leave him alone or else... She yells back at him he will never be done with her, she will come back blah blah blah. Duncan leaves. All of a sudden her sword is thrown to her, she looks up to see Methos, she says "Who are you?" He says "I am someone born before the age of Chivalry" Scene pans out, he WTFBBQPWNS her, and kills her.

Evil PCs in the party can make for great Role Playing. The ppl in your session seem to be Fktards. Get new friends. www.meetup.com

Dark Archive

SterlingEdge wrote:

All of a sudden her sword is thrown to her, she looks up to see Methos, she says "Who are you?" He says "I am someone born before the age of Chivalry" Scene pans out, he WTFBBQPWNS her, and kills her.

If he was REALLY evil, he wouldn't have given the sword back before killing her. Just saying. Though WTFBBQPWNS is an awesome expression.

As for advice for the OP, I would recommend going Allen Stewart on them. Make the game explicitly you versus them, and tell them that you're not going to break the rules, but within the rules you'll do everything in your power to waste them. Then, they'll either band together to stay alive or get obliterated. In the former case you have a coherent game, in the latter you get the pleasure of terminating their annoying characters with extreme prejudice. You're giving them a metagame reason to band together, but it sounds to me like this is a problem with the players being disruptive anyway, so an out of game solution seems most appropriate. If they gripe that you're out to get them, point out that the frustration they feel when their characters die is quite like the frustration you feel when they deliberately derail the game you put together for their benefit.

Liberty's Edge

PulpCruciFiction wrote:
If he was REALLY evil, he wouldn't have given the sword back before killing her. Just saying. Though WTFBBQPWNS is an awesome expression.

That rather depends on his Lawful/Chaotic axis and other personality traits. If he's LE, he could have a sense of honor in that just butchering her wouldn't be acceptable; giving her the weapon makes it justifiable. NE, and he might be of the opinion that just killing her is pointless, like crushing an insect beneath his boot, and he wants to have the pleasure of defeating her before killing her. Even a CE might have a justification for doing it, although I'm in too much pain right now to think of one, but CE is most likely to do as you say. Motivation can be a complex thing, which is why alignment has had so many people complain about the oversimplification of it over the years.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16

I agree with the others that your players need to be more cooperative if you're going to maintain any kind of a campaign. In your shoes I would do several things:

1.) "Step back" from their evil alignments and ask the players about their characters' motivations and values. What do the PCs want and what do they hate? When you know that, you know how to bait your PC hooks.

2.) Enforce rational consequences. If they act like asshats, they will make enemies. Don't pull punches: Every time they gratuitiously antagonize a powerful NPC, let that NPC's allies kill one of them.

"We can get more than that on the Black Market!"

"Oh, really? Have you met the pirate scum that deal in stolen ships? Your lives wouldn't be worth a wooden groat!"

3.) Keep in mind that some friends will drive you mad when you try to DM them. One of my friends consistently tried to derail any adventure he played in. He demanded center stage and tried to screw up the plot any time attention was on another PC. My answer: I stopped gaming regularly with him. We're still friends, but we do other things.

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