First, thank you, Isabella, for the awesome work you’ve done. I’m a big fan of the classes/archetype/feats you’ve created. I appreciate your perspective on authorial intent.
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
If you don't have the prereq, you can't use the feat, absent a special ability overriding this.
I agree with the consensus view that prerequisites apply unless explicitly stated by the ability. I could’ve sworn I found another class or archetype that allowed you to share feats but did not specify that allies did not need to meet the prerequisites, but now I can’t seem to find any. Am I missing something?
If Sisterhood Style is the anomaly, I think that it deserves an errata for consistency, if nothing else. The feats themselves lose a lot of their punch since most teamwork feats carry prerequisites. I could see an argument that the style is meant to be taken by the Gray Maidens alone, therefore they all share similar training, but then why bother sharing feats at all? Besides, Isabella has already said the intent was to ignore prerequisites.
Had I been able to find another example of an ability that shared feats but not granted the ability to bypass prereqs, I would have suggested breaking those two abilities into distinct features that are granted at different levels. For example, you can share any teamwork feats you know at a lower level, but only after a certain, higher level could you share feats with prerequisites and allow the allies to ignore those prerequisites.
I have a build that probably won't come online until a late level, but I'd still like to build around the Coordinated Charge and Sisterhood Style feats, both for their flavor and mechanical advantages.
Can you grant an ally Coordinated Charge if they don't meet the prerequisites (having two other teamwork feats, BAB +10)? Certain "grant feats to an ally" abilities explicitly say they do not need to meet the prerequisites, but Sisterhood Style does not, just says:
Sisterhood Style:
when you enter the Sisterhood Style stance, you can choose a teamwork feat you have. As a swift action, you can grant that feat to an ally within 10 feet until the beginning of your next turn.
Coordinated Charge is admittedly a powerful feat, but so is the feat chain to get and grant it. I want to say it's legal, but then I've read PFS rulings that say you can't grant allies Amplified Rage, for example, because they don't meet the half-orc prerequisite. Presumably, Coordinated Charge + Sisterhood Style would be sunk under that same ruling, assuming the allies don't also have two teamwork feats and BAB 10.
Follow-up question! Trying to optimize around this move-attack-move lightning stance tactic. If you pick up the Fast Getaway rogue talent, which allows you to withdraw as a move action, and then pick up Parting Shot - could you then get two attacks each round, one swift melee attack as part of the Acrobatics move via Up Close and Personal, then another if you use the second move action to withdraw via Fast Getaway, which grants you a single ranged attack at any point in that movement? Quick Draw would be necessary to make that second thrown ranged attack. Does Fast Getaway trigger off a hidden attack, or only a sneak attack? Would you be able to throw a weapon using Quick Draw if the attack you made was with a two-handed weapon?
Parting Shot's language is weird - what does once per encounter mean? That's very 4E language.
By the way, I just want to give a shoutout to the folks who designed the Vigilante class. There's so much customization possible and tons of flavor involved with the dual identities. Well done.
don't forget that something increasing your speed will get slowdown by armour and load too, so if your speed is slow down by anything (except when using the acrobatics duh) you can't use it unless a feat say otherwise.
the feat sure-footed is good but you are still slowdown by armour or load, it only let you move at full speed with acrobatics without the increase in DC, but i think if you go that rout you will be in light armour and thus having no problem with acrobatics
Yup, plan is to go high Dex and light armor. Only load he'll carry will be the burden of inescapable vengeance.
yes it would apply since you have use 2 move action to move, acrobatics is in part of your movement to negate the AoO but you need to move half your speed or you need to increase the DC and if something slow you down you can't use acrobatics in this way. so this is a legal combo i would say
Sure-footed lets you move at full speed while using Acrobatics and there's another talent that adds 20 to your base speed. That should cover the mobility issue.
Plan is to make a super-fast hit-and-run striker. Pick up Martial Focus for Cut from the Air and Smash from the Air, plus 50% miss chance - ain't nothing ranged going to hit him.
So, I came across this thread in searching for a way to put Lightning Stance to use: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pnfg?Lightning-Stance-How-to-Make-Use-of-It
And then I came across the Vigilante's Up Close and Personal talent: "When the vigilante attempts an Acrobatics check to move through an opponent's space during a move action, he can attempt a single melee attack against the opponent as a swift action..."
So, would Lightning Stance apply if you use a move action while using Acrobatics, then another move action after the swift action to attack? Is it wise to build an entire character around that tactic? Cuz I'm gonna.
Hmm I don't know about +52 barring buffs from friends. But combat reflexes pretty much will stop a ranger going all out on you.
Checked the math and I messed up a couple places. The attack is actually higher than that self-buffed!
The Mutation Warrior can hit +63 on AoO's if he gets Greater Heroism from someone, +59 if not. +20 BAB + 17 Dex + 5 enhancement + 4 weapon training + 1 weapon focus +1 greater weapon focus + 2 dueling gloves + 1 trait +1 competence from ioun stone + 1 luck from Helm of Conquest prayer + 6 from animal focus and + 4 morale from heroism)
The +6 animal focus is from Stalker's Focus (snake) and only lasts a minute, but it's untyped and huge. Prayer procs on crits. The morale bonus is the only thing left, I think, and greater heroism gives the biggest bump.
The Two-Weapon Warrior manages +53 with greater heroism, +49 without, having lost 4 from a lower Dex and 6 from weapon training and dueling gloves.
The Mutation Warrior is pretty far ahead, attack-wise, but since they're both so high that almost no attack spell or ranged attack would ever hit them, damage might be the deciding factor. If it's full-attack vs full-attack, the Two-Weapon Warrior dominates. Each Agile kukri does around 1d4+33 per swing with 7 attacks, slightly lower on the off-hands, two attacks per AoO. The Mutation Warrior manages 2d8+50 per swing for four attacks.
These are both comparisons at 20 and the progression isn't linear until level 13, when Equal Opportunity comes online. The Mutation Warrior is the clear favorite for the first 12 levels. Hard to decide!
Right, I knew Fortuitous wouldn't help with the Cut from the Air deflection, but I was hoping having it on both weapons would help boost the damage on the Two-Weapon Fighter.
I'm leaning toward the Mutation Warrior, mechanically. If my math was right, at level 20, the Mutation Warrior with the alchemical bonus to Dex has an attack bonus around +52. The Two-Weapon Warrior's attack bonus is around +43. If a CR 23 Solar has a top ranged attack bonus of +31, even with two attacks to deflect, the Mutation Warrior is guaranteed to deflect on anything except a 1. Two attacks almost guarantees you'll avoid natural 1s, though I still think I'd prefer the chances with the higher single attack over two lower attacks.
Conceptually, I think the Two-Weapon Warrior would be more fun to play, which is probably more important than the mechanical advantages. They're both flavorful builds - I wanted to go Aasimar for wings and Celestial Obedience (Ragathiel) for the Two-Weapon Warrior and an Elf curved blade-wielding speed-demon Mutation Warrior capable of making a stupid number of AoO's both defensively and offensively. I was possibly going to add Eldritch Guardian to both, too, just to capitalize on the action economy silliness.
I still need to crunch the numbers, but I think the Two-Weapon Warrior pulls ahead in straight damage due to the extra attacks and AoO's, but for the purpose of maximizing the Cut From the Air feat chain, I think the Mutation Warrior wins.
It will work. That's a long road to get these 2 attacks but it is good for strike from air feat chains.
However spell cut is not an going to get 2 tries though. It's not an AoO. And it's clear it's once a round.
I went straight fighter doing this. It's pretty damn incredible.
Sweet. That's good to know. In your opinion, would it be better optimized by not going with Two Weapon Warrior? I love the versatility of Mutation Warrior by getting wings, fast healing and a crazy high Dexterity. Equal Opportunity really is the only benefit of Two Weapon Warrior. Their weapon training replacement doesn't even apply to AoO's since you have to be full-attacking to use it. That leaves you 4 attack bonus shy and 4 more on top of that from missing out on +8 Dex. Is getting two attempts at the AoO deflection worth +8 attack and some damage? Would adding a Fortuitous enchantment to both weapons make up for it? All of the advanced weapon training options are so good, it's hard to sacrifice them for one ability.
I love this feat chain and want to build a character around it, which I think is best optimized by pumping your attack bonus as high as possible. I also noticed that the otherwise lackluster Two Weapon Warrior archetype has the Equal Opportunity class feature, which allows you to make two attacks of opportunity, one with each weapon, whenever you make an attack of opportunity. Would that ability let you make two attacks to deflect a missile/spell?
My fallback option is to go with Mutation Warrior, pump Dex as high as possible and use an Elven Curve Blade.
Anyone else have any suggestions on how to make use of these feats? A full BAB class seems necessary, especially if you pick up Spellcut.
I think I goofed up. The Fey Magic ability wouldn't let me reroll caster level checks AGAINST me, would it? That was sort of the crux of the build and using Aura of Perfection to double down on it. The GM would be rolling for caster level checks on the NPC's attack, so that isn't subject to Fey Magic, right? Just your own checks against others' SR? If so, that sorta kills my mojo.
Scaled Fist is awesome, and appears to be legit w/ both Chained and Unchained Monks, though it's probably not worth it as a dip.
The build I would go with is a Drow with 2 levels of Paladin, followed by advancing as a Scaled Fist Unchained Monk to 12th level. At that point, pick up Diamond Soul w/ a Ring of Ki Mastery so that you can generate 12 rounds SR 10 + Monk level. What's great about this build is if you combine it with Abundant Step and Dimensional Agility, in the first round you can raise your SR, Dimension Door to adjacent to the caster, and smack them with a Stunning Fist attempt. Further, the build is not so feat starved or anything that you wouldn't be able to build an otherwise competent combatant when not fighting spell-casters.
Although Ectar's build has some great defenses, but I fail to see how it's supposed to deal with some of the most basic of caster defenses, and ultimately offense is the best defense against a caster.
Traits: Scorned By Magic, Sound Mind
Isn't sticking with monk for Diamond Soul a little redundant with Drow when you can get much higher SR with Noble Spell Resistance? I do like the abundant step pickup, though.
Prompted a new turn for me, however. What about Cavern Sniper 1 / Zen Archer 3 / Enlightened Paladin 16? I like sticking with Paladin for the spells, better LoH and, most importantly, Aura of Perfection at 11. Going as an archer seems like it'll help with offense and mobility and being able to cast unlimited deeper darkness and faerie fire as a swift action each round is awesome. Only thing you lose is the Divine Bond that sticks with your unarmed strikes, which feels a little wasteful. Maximize Cha and Wis.
And I feel like the saves with a massive Charisma score and Grace will be significantly higher than the Dwarf rager.
Theory-crafting, here. I wanted to build a melee sorcerer/wizard around Antimagic Field, but it felt pretty weak. Superstitious-based Bloodrager primalist + untouchable rager also looked appealing, but I think there's a more efficient way to maximize the spell resistance potential: Enlightened (Iroran) Paladin Drow with the Noble Spell Resistance and Eldritch Heritage (Fey) feat trees.
Noble Spell resistance gets you almost as much SR as an Untouchable Rager (11+HD), Improved Spell Resistance feat gets you to 13+HD, Scorned by Magic trait reduces caster level checks against you by 1, Fey Magic from Eldritch Heritage allows you to reroll spell resistance checks at will and Aura of Perfection lets you roll a third time and use the higher of the two rerolls. That's almost a guaranteed save against SR - the paladin's Grace makes sure your saves are crazy high against spells that don't check against SR.
Offensively, the build is pretty lackluster, but as a self-healing, spell-immune tank, I think this would be a really fun build. There's a lot of thematically appropriate stuff that would lend itself toward role playing, too -- "evil" Drow becomes enlightened and makes it a personal quest to combat evil spellcasters.
Side note: Is Scaled Fist still a legit monk archetype? Would it be worth the two-level dip to pick up Flurry, Stunning Fist and that questionable Cha-to-AC stacking?
No, you actually caught me in some bad math. As others have pointed out, it's possible to hit 40 through various means, but I intended a PFS-legal character with a 20-point buy. I just came from a 5E game, so I had added +2 per ability score increase. I was off by 5. I started with a 16 INT +2 from Tiefling racial, too, since I wasn't really trying to build a one-trick pony and wanted a viable character. Accounted for that with a +2 profane for a romantic partnership with a succubus. Not sure if anything else is fishy, but I don't think a +1 or +2 difference is going to keep that single hit from breaking 1,000 damage.
On the flip side of this conversation, what's the nuttiest damage anyone's come up with at level 1 or 2? Best I could put together is a lv2 vivisectionist wereboar with 6 natural attacks (5 if you're stingy about gore/bite overlap). I got something like 55-125 damage on a full attack with sneak attacks, enlarged/shifted/mutagen'd. Could go higher if I maxed strength at 20 instead of 18.
Safer to have a spell analogous to ray of enfeeblement that would penalize your score to 1 but not be able to reduce it to 0.
A penalty isn't going to cut it, because penalties "function just like ability damage," which "does not actually reduce an ability." You'll need ability drain, which requires a much more powerful source, and is very rarely constrained from reducing a score below 1. In other words, you'd need to go far into custom spell territory, and relying on that much GM leeway to obtain your exploit of infinite power is sort of missing the point.
Not to mention the fact that your lowered intelligence score could easily make you forget how or why to cast the spell once more, leaving you stuck with a dysfunctional mind - whereas your loyal robot simulacrum would be certain of draining your intelligence to exactly 1, triggering the contingent awaken.
I don't understand anything about this. How does this qualify as a single attack?
Spellstrike Gloves don't work on rays (like disintegrate).
D:
Duh. That throws off my whole build! I guess I can ditch Spell Blending, but there was a certain zen in getting all the feats and arcana at their respective minimum requirements.
The vanilla game appears to be plenty broken without even considering Mythic rules.
Vanykrye wrote:
Belafon wrote:
Vanykrye wrote:
Bladebound/Kensai Magus can't spellstrike with disintegrate. Spellstrike specifies a melee touch spell, and disintegrate is a ray. Eldritch Archer Magus could do it though.
Close Range arcana lets you spellstrike with a ray. Although I see Ken Sai did not include it in the build. Swap out one of the critical feats for Extra Arcana.
Doh. I was even looking through the magus arcana before I posted it and forgot about/missed that one.
I prefer Spellstrike Gloves, personally. Really cheap! I don't think there are enough ranged spells to justify using the arcana slot.
Using the coven stuff, with a spell that has no maximum dice and/or bonus damage, that scales with caster level. You can get into the millions if their math is right.
That does seem hard to beat. But if you dropped a Tarrasque right next to her when she wasn't around her coven...
Azten wrote:
The bleed damage from the first example wouldn't happen until the Tarrasque's turn, yes?
Yes. Sorry. The build took the critical feat chain through Stunning Critical for regular use. I guess I could've got more mileage out of the one-hit wonder stuff if I put those feats elsewhere. More of a salt in the wound thing. Here's what I had for the
Only flaw is it being a surprise round. You could draw as a swift and not be surprised... but at best you're either both not surprised (act as nornal) or can take a limited number of actions as you surprise it.
I don't think that includes spell combat actions.
Could be wrong but I didn't see a fix
Aha, I did mention that the kensai had his weapon enchanted and in-hand. Not super realistic scenario all around, I admit, but the idea was to hammer the point home about needing to kill something with one hit.
Just idle curiosity from a longtime lurker. I've found some old threads along the same lines, but wanted to take into account new published Paizo materials.
I think I came up with a decent contender. 20 Magus (Bladebound / Kensai). Check my math for mistakes.
The magus is minding his own business, walking down a road, fully buffed. A bored deity summons the Tarrasque right next to him. Surprise round!
With his kensai training, there's no doubt who goes first. Weapon drawn and already sporting his enchanted katana, the kensai makes a single spellstrike attack with an empowered and maximized Disintegrate, catching the Tarrasque flat-footed.
For the sake of the story, the attack hits, the mighty beast rolls a 1 to fail the Disintegrate save DC and the attack is a confirmed critical hit.
The magus has a x3 multiplier with his katana from his capstone feature and casts Decapitate as an immediate action, raising the critical multiplier by 1, to x4. He also spends 2 points from his arcane pool to increase the multiplier again, to x5.
With all that so conveniently lined up, I think the Tarrasque's head is flying off with a massive +1,000 HP slice from his Black Blade.
Without spelling out the whole build, assume the Magus has, with items, 40 Intelligence, 26 Strength and all the relevant feats. To summarize the math: an average ~300 slashing damage (1d8 +8 Strength +5 enhancement + 6 Black Blade Strike + 6 Power Attack +2 Bane +15 Intelligence from Iaijutsi Focus) x5 +4d6 from Decapitate +2d6 from a Bane weapon +720[(+60d6)x2] maximized and empowered disintegrate + 2d10 electric from Shocking Burst + 2d6 bleed from bleeding critical + stun from stunning critical just for good measure.
If the Bane weapon doesn't count as Epic to over come DR, subtract 15 damage!
Maybe the Tarrasque isn't the best example, but it makes for a more compelling story than having a kensai 1-shot a rabbit he passed on the road.
Anyone have other suggestions? Anything conspicuously awry with my calculations? Only thing I wasn't sure about was whether Decapitate's multiplier boost would stack with the kensai's Perfect Strike boost.
