Hellknight

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Grand Lodge

While i'm not quite sure how to make Erak "huge" as per the game mechanic, there's nothing to say that your half-orc can't be a hulking tower of muscle for his size as roleplay.
Finlander is right, barbarians really don't need much help, as most of their power already comes through their class abilities (namely their rage powers). The above build is generally a good starting point, and it can be tweaked fairly easily. For instance, i'd go for more of a non dump point buy:
Str 18
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 10

I definitely agree that a two handed weapon is the way to go, but a greataxe might be more your style for the half-orc (1d12 instead of 2d6, and a x3 crit instead of 19-20x2). I'm personally not a fan of power attack, and favor To Hit more than Damage, so something like weapon focus could be your feat of choice if this is more your style, but power attack is definitely a good option.
I also highly suggest you look at the Invulnerable Rager archetype, as it's one of the better ones in pathfinder IMO
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---b arbarian-archetypes/invulnerable-rager

Finally, for any more questions you may have, i also suggest you check out the Guide to the Guides post, or this website if you have the time http://zenithgames.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-comprehensive-pathfinder-guides .html
There's multiple guides on there to just about every class in pathfinder, and at least 3 for the barbarian.

Grand Lodge

Yes, you can DW lances while on a horse, but as stated earlier you'd take massive penalties if you don't have TWF. Now, if you wanted, you could pick up a couple of Effortless Laces and go all rogue-y on people (something like UC Rogue 3, Calv X with boon companion would be fine). it also would reduce your TWF penalties to -2s, which is way better than -4s.

Grand Lodge

Samurai, though they don't actually get much to support their mount through class abilities. Then there's things that could act as a mount, such as a Sylvan Sorcerer with a Roc, so i'm sure you could ride that.

Grand Lodge

Endoralis wrote:


Then your friends Samurai was pathetic, nothing about that build is special. And everything about his Samurai is off... because even a minimally made Samurai would on avg one shot you.

Exactly. I really only cheesed the point buy (there's not really any other way to make a build "special" with 1 level of anything barring very few spellcaster niche builds i.e. getting daze at DC 18). The samurai had an 18 strength, which with his tetsubo (again, average damage) was 5.5 average + 6 from 1.5 strength. rounding down leaves me at 2, since i have 13 hitpoints. The samurai build isn't bad, it was the fact that we were making massive assumptions of average damage.

Grand Lodge

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BadBird wrote:
An Unchained Monk with a sansetsukon would give a Barbarian some competition with the ability to make a full two-handed strength and power attack strike twice per round with no penalty at level 1.

Badbird is absolutely right here. I did a number crunch a while ago with a friend of mine, and if I rolled up an unchained monk at lvl 1 in PFS I could kill his level 4 samurai before he killed me (if pvp was allowed of course) but that was assuming every attack hit and and everything was average damage.

The build was something like this (keep in mind this was for Maximum Cheesing:
Human w/ Dual Talent (since you don't really need the feat, and the extra +2 is nice)
13 hitpoints, 12 AC (kinda garbage, but it didn't really matter since you'd kill it right away)
Str 20
Dex 13
Con 14
Int 7
Wis 15
Cha 7
Feats were Power Attack and Dodge + Stunning Fist from monk bonus feats.
Picked up a sansetsukon, and my full rounds were..
+5 to hit, 1d10+10/+5 1d10+10
(5 str mod, 1 bab, -1 power attack ; weapon dmg, 1.5 str, +3 from pwr atk)
Was one of the best level one builds we've found.

Grand Lodge

multiclassing into Barbarian or bloodrager for the higher bonuses on your inspire rage ability is pretty insane -- If you pick up Skald's Vigor it works even better, getting you access to fast healing equal to your rage bonuses when you're using your inspired rage song. picking up a few Extra Performances could be pretty valuable, since the skald and barbarian don't really need much for feats as they get all of their power from the class abilities and rage powers.

Grand Lodge

Chess Pwn wrote:


You have levels in monk. The robe's don't say {Monk Class ability: AC bonus} and {Monk Class ability: Unarmed strike Damage}, it says AC bonus, which the Brawler has. And they both have the Unarmed Strike class ability. Well looky there. The brawler has both the things that the monk's robes are effecting.

The sash on the other hand says to count your level as 4 higher for abilities you don't have. So it's the same as a Mutation warrior taking the sash, you are a lv 7 fighter for your armor training that you don't have. the sash never gives you the abilities.

The easiest to find Rule that - does not equal 0 is the FAQ on spells per day. It says there than not having something is very different from having something at 0. Another example is the Spelleater bloodrager and his DR. It says he has effective DR/- 0 for abilities that increase DR (like the primalist getting the DR rage power), because it shows/follows the rule that you can't increase something you don't have.

You're right, the robes don't say that. But the problem is that the AC of the monk scales at a different pace than the AC of a brawler. So the magic item implies you get the "5 levels higher" monk variant. Also, where did you find the ruling of replacing "fighter/monk" with "brawler"? I've spent the last few minutes searching through FAQs and erratas looking for anything that comes close to that, and came up with nothing.

I also spent some time looking through the magic items. The sash is the ONLY magic item that i found that only states "the wearer". The druid's vestments come close, but specifically state that you must have the abilities. Every other item like this says "the sorcerer/monk/paladin/inquisitor/arcane spellcaster/etc". The Sash is the only magic item that merely states the wearer.

Grand Lodge

Rynjin wrote:


Except the Monk's Robe has ENTIRELY DIFFERENT wording.

A Brawler has "levels in Monk", which is what the Monk's Robe requires to fully function.

It then goes on to say "her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher"

This can be parsed one of two ways:

-Your Monk level is treated as higher than it is already (which is meaningless in this case, so it does nothing).

-Your AC and unarmed damage become that of a Monk five levels higher than your own (which means at 5th level you would have an effective Monk level of 10 for those abilities, because...

Yes, so I'm saying the same thing you're saying. I have levels in monk, and so i count my AC bonus and unarmed strike damage as a monk of 5 levels higher. But I don't have {Monk Class ability: AC bonus} and {Monk Class ability: Unarmed strike Damage},as per your own statement of not getting abilities just because you have effective levels, so by your own rules I wouldn't get those increases. According to you, this is because even though i have effective levels in a class, i don't get the class abilities, even if i have magic items granting them to me. And I wouldn't get the increases from NOT having monk levels either, because as we both agree i have monk levels.

Now, the ONLY difference in these is the wordings according to you. Because the Monk's Robe says exactly what happens if i have levels in monk (which is increasing my level for the purposes of abilities that i do not get). The Sash on the other hand says that i count my fighter levels higher for the purposes of abilities that I do not get. So how are these different?

THIS is where it needs clarification. Because, and bear with me, according to EVERYONE else on this thread you do not get class abilities from increases in effective levels unless the item specifically says it does. The monk's robe's specifically say that they grant me 5th level monk abilities if i don't have levels in it. But i do have levels in monk, just not the abilities of the monk. And my own ability

Martial Training (Ex)

At 1st level, a brawler counts her total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk's robe). This ability does not automatically grant feats normally granted to fighters and monks based on class level, namely Stunning Fist.

SAYS that the monk's robe works. I count as fighter AND monk for magic items and feats that have different effects based on whether or not i have levels in fighter. So the monk's robes would give me an effective level of (assuming brawler 7) 12th level monk for the purposes of unarmed strike and AC bonuses (class abilities i do not get). The Sash of the war champion would give me an effective level of (again, assuming brawler 7) 11th level fighter for the purposes of Armor training and bravery (once again, abilities i do not get).

There is no case by case basis here. I have fighter levels. I have monk levels. As per the rules written in the APG, the Monk's robes work. They grant me Monk AC and Monk Unarmed strike damage 5 levels higher than my brawler level.
The Sash of the War Champion would grant me Fighter Armor Training and Fighter bravery 4 levels higher than my brawler level.
I don't know where you guys got that magic items can't grant class abilities, but i don't know how to make it any more simple that they can. Otherwise Paizo messed up in stating that the Monk's robes work, and they need to errata that they don't actually work.

Grand Lodge

I also don't have levels in monk, but my class ability states that i get levels in monk for the PURPOSES of magic items (monk's robe). So i'd get the ac bonus and unarmed strike damage as that of a monk of 5 levels higher (since martial training says i'm technically a monk). BUT your argument is that i don't actually have the unarmed strike damage or the ac bonus of a monk, since those are monk class features, and i don't get those. so the item just doesn't work for me, even though it says it does? and if it works for this item, which by your own rules it shouldn't because i don't actually have these monk class features, it needs to work for everything else involving the magic items.

I'll even put this another way. RAW i get monk abilities 5 levels higher than my effective brawler level. so at level 7 i'd get 12th level monk unarmed strike damage and 12th level monk AC, but since magic items can't grant me those abilities since i don't actually have those abilities it doesnt work. EVEN THOUGH i have an ability that says they work.

So by using that SAME LOGIC, rules as written i'd get the effect of having a fighter 11th from sash of the war champion, since it checks my total fighter level, but i wouldnt get the abilities, even though i'd get them from the monks robes?

If it works for one thing, it has to work for the other. and since it WORKS for the monks robe, rules as written it works here.

Grand Lodge

Rynjin wrote:


As Duiker said, this isn't really correct.

Your Fighter level is "null" not 0. As usually represented in Pathfinder RPG rules as I put i my first post "-". A zombie doesn't have a Con score of 0. It has a Con score of "-". Casting Bear's Endurance on it leaves it with a Con score of "-", not 4, because "-"+4 is still "-", because "-" is not equivalent to 0.

There are rules specifically stating that a zombie's con is "-", but from what coxey has said there has been no clarification on whether or not class levels are null or 0.

Grand Lodge

Duiker wrote:
coxey292 wrote:
None = 0 in all of mathematics.

That is not even remotely true. A null value is distinct from zero "in all of mathematics".

Null+4=Null

0+4=4

There is no need for a specific ruling on this because it has been made clear repeatedly in other instances. Something that improves a feature does nothing if you do not have that feature in the first place.

I'm going to have to agree with coxey292 here. If the item actually worked like this, it'd be useless for anything not a minimum of fighter 3 (which isn't true because a fighter 1 or 2 with this item would get the ability). If it worked the way you said it did, even without having shown actual rulings for it, then this item would be useless not only for any multiclassed fighter, but any fighter below level 3, in which you already got the ability you were looking for, and even the majority of the fighter archetypes.

Grand Lodge

Alright, thanks wraithstrike. Glad to have that one cleared up :D I figured that was an appropriate ruling, but it seemed somewhat logical in my head that a blind creature would be immune to something that blinded.

Grand Lodge

Yes, BUT it specifically mentions i count as a fighter AND a monk for the purposes of magic items, then specifically references the monk's robes, which state "When worn, this simple brown robe confers great ability in unarmed combat. If the wearer has levels in monk, her AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the robe lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-Level monk (although she does not add her Wisdom bonus to her AC). This AC bonus functions just like the monk's AC bonus."
I would count as having monk levels to receive the first effect, and not the effect of having no monk levels. On the FAQ for the Sash of the war champion people are saying that if you have no levels in fighter the sash doesn't work, but my own ability is stating that i do have levels in fighter, which begs the question.
The sash of the war champion nor the FAQ state i need to have the abilities, just levels in fighter. This is why i'm asking. Because if it works for the monk's robes, it'd have to work for everything else.

Grand Lodge

So, after finding something quite interesting the other day, i felt like i should get it clarified, though from everything i've been able to find it absolutely works.

The brawler's class ability Martial training states:
At 1st level, a brawler counts her total brawler levels as both fighter levels and monk levels for the purpose of qualifying for feats. She also counts as both a fighter and a monk for feats and magic items that have different effects based on whether the character has levels in those classes (such as Stunning Fist and a monk's robe). This ability does not automatically grant feats normally granted to fighters and monks based on class level, namely Stunning Fist.

This gives the assumption that it works for other magic items too, namely the Sash of the war champion which reads:
The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.

So my question is this. At 7th level brawler, with sash of the war champion, I get armor training and bravery as though i was an 11th lvl fighter. At 11th fighter I get armor training 3, which lowers the armor check penalty by 3.
So if i have mithral full plate, and this sash, i can put my armor check penalty to 0, meaning that if i don't have heavy armor proficiency (the brawler only gets light) then i'd have to take my armor check penalty to my attack rolls? so... I take -0 to all attack rolls, the armor training still allows me to move at full speed, and it's lighter (on top of getting bravery of 11th lvl fighter). I just want to make sure i'm reading all of this right.

Grand Lodge

So, in PFS I play a brawler modeled after Jak from Jak & Daxter. In the theme of this character, I have a pair of Smoked Goggles that I wear on my head, but not actually "worn" to gain the effect. When playing a mission, an interesting scenario came about. Jak was about to get Glitterdusted, and so i tried to play by the rules as to find the action of "putting on" the goggles. The gm said it was a move action, which was fine, but i still ended up getting glitterdusted since they weren't on at the time of the spell effect.

According to the APG:
These spectacles have lenses made of smoked glass that help protect against creatures with gaze attacks. You are always treated as averting your gaze when dealing with gaze attacks, and you gain a +8 circumstance bonus on saving throws against visual-based attacks (any attack that a blind creature would be immune to). You have a –4 penalty on Perception checks while wearing the goggles, and all opponents are treated as having concealment (20% miss chance).

Now, lets assume that I had them on at the time of spell effect. Would i be immune to glitter dust seeing as i literally have on a pair of goggles? They don't say i'm immune to that, they say i get a +8 to my save (seeing as a blind creature would presumably be immune to the blind condition) so the gm and i assumed a no.
BUT, let's say i do end up getting the glitter in my eyes. can i then pull down the goggles, to get the +8 to my will save at the end of my turn? My argument is yes, because rules as written for the goggles i get a +8 on saves against anything that a blind creature would be immune to. (and it's pretty hard to blind a creature that's already blind.)

On the same note, Is a blind creature immune to the blind condition? Would a deaf creature be immune to deafness? Sorry for the multitude of questions, but they all kinda go hand in hand for this ruling.