N N 959 wrote:
it is viable and effective as it is now.The issue is that it is boring.
Seems like everyone wants to trade damage for non-damage.And there should be some use for Int. Though not requiring it to be 18 at level 1 is probably good.
3. What are the metrics for evaluating this class in combat? Is it average DPS? Peak damage? Total negative modifiers applied? Positive Modifiers applied? In MMO's, they typically measure the difference in XP gained per hour with and without a class. What is the analogue for a pen and paper RPG
Metric are how interesting it is to play. Both in combat and out of it.Balance is easy enough after the fact. As you can easily adjust a die size up or down.
N N 959 wrote:
With a Skill bump every other level, you could bump a lot of the combat functional skill to Master.
Exactly. And it would make sense to lean into that.
Or on the feat/feature.
But if the investigators job is to roll skill checks. Then (IMO) they should be able to roll skill checks in combat as well as out of it.
Is there a way for more skills to be used in combat? Stuff like feint, create diversion, and demoralize are all nice.
But if we give crafting, lore, and society something to do in combat, then the investigator just improves by virtue of having lots of skills.
Probably as a skill feat that investigators get for free, but also let's anyone else pick it up.
Also, something like this. Which can let the investigator talk to people more easily, and help buy them time while they investigate.
Societal Sanctuary. 2 actions
Critical Success Sanctuary ends, and the target is immune for 24 hours.
Possibly have calm emotion at higher level.
N N 959 wrote:
I was accused of not getting it, and I'll fire back. If you make INT do more, specifically in combat, then you're going to gimp a character for not having an 18 INT. If INT does more, then that limits what the class can achieve in the absence of INT.
I sort of agree.
Not needing to take Int to 18 is good, but I also think being able to so easily dump it is bad. Though I think the main issue with Int in general. It's a dump stat for everyone.
Critical Success Sanctuary ends, and the target is immune for 24 hours.
Wumiao Xue wrote:
"Clue Points" seems a bit awkward to me, but it would simplify things.
But I do really like the idea of using different skills. Making perception check, recall knowledge check, medicine check, deception check, diplomacy check etc...
I mean, you got all these skills. You should have a reason to use them all.
This might take the form of an increasing attack bonus, or an increasing damage bonus, or an increasing debuff (or increasing number of debuffs). Alternatively, one might allow investigators to get benefits from prolonged study by increasing the number of these effects (each round allows them to either add a damage bonus, or an attack bonus, or a debuff).
Yea. I do think investigator would make more sense as a support class would be better. Possibly, each skill check gains it's own bonus, which you can hand out....
Perception Investigation: 1 action
Knowledge Investigation: 1 action
Medical Investigation: 1 action (feat, medic)
Deception Investigation: 1 action (feat)
Diplomacy Investigation: 1 action (feat)
Clue In: 1 action
Big Reveal: Free action.
That seems pretty good. A reason to use all your skills. Given enough time, you can rack up serious serious bonuses against a target. And several decisions on how to use your clues you built up. Do you spend more actions giving out bonuses as soon as you can? Do you spend extra rounds studying to save actions? Or do you keep all the clues to yourself for your own big burst?
IMO the investigator is not different enough from a rogue, and needs something new and unique.
And when I imagine one, I think of the Sherlock movie. Where Sherlock would spend time planning his attacks, before making a move. Thus I imagine a mechanic that does similar. Where you spend actions/turns thinking and building up a bonus, before a big hit. Something like...
Investigate Attack: 1 action.
Critical Success: When you make your next strike against the target before the end of your turn, do not roll a d20. It is automatically a critical success. If you do not strike this turn, you gain a +3 circumstance bonus to your next strike against the target within the next hour.
If you use this against a creature who is not actively fighting, and are relying on secondary clues such as their stance and wear patterns on their armor, you outcome is a degree worse.
I also imagine something similar for out of combat. Where you can "gather clues" towards your case, until you have enough for a "big reveal".
Yes, and no.
Yes, this version should just be a rogue racket. There is not enough to make it different.
No, there should still be an investigator class. It just needs to have more unique features. IMO, it should play more like a bard, or a 4e warlord. With more focus on getting and giving out "clues" (possibly similar to swashbuckler) to others, and less damage.
Okay, first off, again, "requiring" true strike in this equation isn't fair to the Druid or Cleric blasters out there. Yes, they can get it with some work, but we shouldn't focus builds around it.
There does not appear to be any primal spell attacks.
Though there may be in the future.
It depends on how many evil creatures you are fighting. Remember that persistent damage will trigger a weakness a second time, and your first strike has a greater chance to hit than your second, or even third (for blade + strike turns).
But without evil enemies, it's not great.
Picking up some spells is always good. I would go for occult and get bless, blur (maybe Dark Vision) and haste.
Yea, but at level 1, you choose between +3 to hit, or 1/2 damage on a miss. Seems like a decent trade-off.
At level 20, you choose between +0, or half damage on a miss.
True strike is arcane and divine. But is for 1 attack. Great for polar ray, but kind of a waste for produce flame.
Heroism is divine and occult. But to get the +3 you need to cast it at 9th level. That seems a bit extreme.
Bless, inspire, and guidance are suck at +1... doesn't really keep you on par.
I see nothing that is primal.... though I don't see any primal spell attacks either... So i guess that doesn't matter.
I guess it depends on how easy flat-footed becomes.
Using a staff for the item bonus would be fine. Maybe even handwraps.
it's not about materials vs casters. (Not this thread anyways).It's about AC spells vs save spells.
Polar ray vs finger of death. Or produce flames vs chill touch. At high level, one of those us -2/3 to the other.
I am not suggesting a bonus to saves spells.
Compare that to level 1.
A level 20 spellcaster with legendary proficiency hits the monster on a 10, 55% of the time. The monster saves on a 10, 55% of the time.
Fair point.But again, look at how it chances from level 1.
I am comparing moderate AC vs moderate save.
And there is also polar ray, tangled creepers, chilling darkness, and spiritual weapon as slot attack spells. Possibly more.
Not enough to make a +item attack spell wand a must have. Though maybe making the attack spells a bit more powerful will also work.
But a fair point about true strike. But you can also give penalties to other saves with clumsy or what not.
So looking at the monster builder document, monster AC scales faster than saves (2 or 3 point difference).
This mostly works out since weapons get a +item bonus, while spells do not.
But there are a few spells that target AC. Like ray of frost and polar ray. Meaning that fall -2/3 behind their save counterpart.
So should there be a +item bonus to spell attacks?
46 is the "high" AC. Moderate is 45. Saves have a extra "terrible" column for the low end, but it should rarely be used.
Given that we're talking about very specific cantrips, the option to choose which save you target doesn't really factor in. So it's more like EA is better against enemies with low reflex, worse against enemies with high reflex and about the same (in terms of accuracy) against enemies with average reflex. Discounting, of course, EA's failure effect since that's kind of beyond the point of this comparison.
It's more notable that ray of frost/produce flames, at high level, are -2 to hit compared to electric arc.
Seems like a hold over from when they had +item to spells, but remove it just for the saves, but made no extra adjustments for the spell targeting AC.
And yea, that's on average. And not including flat footed.
TABLE 2–5: ARMOR CLASS
TABLE 2–6: SAVING THROWS
So over 20 levels, AC attack are 2 points behind spells later. Given you get +3 weapons, weapon attacks are actually 1 point ahead, but AC spells fall behind.
Which also means my martial vs caster calculations are a little off. I assume flat scaling for both.
I am not that great with the math, but does produce flame not jump up quite a bit when paired with a rogue’s 4th level ability to add sneak attack? That + the lowered AC of flat footed, and an increased odds of getting a critical hit have to boost it considerably.
Yes, sneak attack would adds a lot.
But monster AC scales faster than monster saves. To make up for item bonus to attack, that spells don't get. So the flat footed is +2 at lower level, but makes for the same accuracy at higher level. Though I guess flat footed is easier go gain at high level, so call it a wash.
Still at level 20, it should beat electric arc against single target.... by 27%.
My question is, what the hell do Mountain Stance Monks do about flying enemies now? You can't switch to Wild Winds Stance without tanking your AC, and even if you did your hit rate is awful because you built around the assumption that you don't need dexterity.
The same thing any Str based character does. Also, Finesse weapons can still be used with Str. So your unarmed hit rate is the same either way.
Also does it say anywhere that "requirement" is more than just the initial condition?
N N 959 wrote:
You have it right, most shields will break if used for blocking anything but the lightest hits. You mainly use them for the +2 AC, and work best against small hits, not crits.
Though a steel shield should have Hardness 5; HP (BT) 20 (10). (15 damage to break, 25 to destroy). That should let him block 1 hit, then repair it later.
Seems like put in the stats for the wooden one, which has Hardness 3; HP (BT) 12 (6). (9 to damage, 15 damage to destroy)
How likely are critical successes with Recall Knowledge? It doesn't seem very helpful until 10th level, and even then, I'm not so sure. Isn't it a one-time +1 bonus to a couple things? Is a sometimes +1 really that valuable at that level?
Not likely to roll a crit.At level 10, it becomes pretty decent. Combine all 4 feats and it's very good.
I'm hearing the need for more healing. I don't know the system very well. Is healing, especially self healing, something the Monk will be able to do? Are druids any good at healing, especially healing animal companions? What would be better for healing, MC Cleric, or Field Medic? I'm not sure I want to dedicate too many feats just to healing, but I think it could work within the theme of the character.
You really want at least 1 person to take medicine, as that will be your primary way of healing without burning all the druid spells.And since the Druid can already do some healing, probably better to spread it out between you and the monk. Thus if the druid drops, one of you can get them back up.
There is also the Natural Medicine feat.
Another thought about animal companions. If the druid and ranger both have animal companions, are there any spells or abilities that would affect them both? We're also thinking about animal companions because we have a small party, only 3 PCs.
Magic Fang is nice at low levels. There are a few other buffs as well, but are probably best put on the monk.Debuffs like fear and goblin pox help everyone.
And Monster Hunter works for them (though i'd still wait till later).
I wonder if there would be any problem in making a Braclet that transfered properties to thrown items.
I don't see any issue with it.
Gloves of Returning (level 3, invested).
Though personally, I prefer the image of a never ending bandoleer over returning gloves.
Endless Bandoleer (level 4, invested). This item provides you with a never ending supply of summoned weapons. The type of weapon is chosen when the endless bandoleer is created. You can add runes to the bandoleer as if it was a weapon of that type, and those runes apply to the weapons you draw from it.
Activate Free Action: You draw a weapons of the set type, with the attached runes. These weapons disappear shortly after you let go of them, though they last long enough for a thrown weapon to strike.
And some extra flavors...
Weapon Master's Bandoleer (level 5, invested). This is the same as an Endless Bandoleer, but you gains the following.
Activate 1 action: You chance what type of weapon the bandoleer can summon, and draw a weapon of that type.
Seems more pertinent to PC's than for monsters. Since PC DC's scale, a level 20 wizard could use a level 1 sleep spell to win a against the BBEG.
But you still don't want a large pack of ghouls perma-stunning high level PC's either. Even if they rarely hit, they could keep a PC out pretty easily.
Not my favorite solution to be honest.
I agree with you. I was trying to see what I could do with it, but I don't find it good enough compared to a more classical ranged attack.
Well you can use Wis instead of Dex, as well as a full ability mod, and 1 handed. That is something.
Hmm... Are spell attacks behind weapon attacks? Are they missing an item bonus?
Straying a bit off topic... but here's more math...
Ranger: Precision vs Flurry
level 5:Precision is 7% ahead. Though 4 attacks flurry would win.
50% hit, 15% crit + 35% hit, 5% crit + 15% hit, 5% crit
(.5 + .15*2)+(.35 + .05 *2)+(.15+.05*2) = 1.5
2d8+2 * 1.5 = 16.5
Deadly 1d10*(.15+.05+.05) = 1.375
+ 1d8 * 1-(.5 * .65 * .85)=3.256875
+ 1d8 * .15 * 2 = 1.35 (crit with precision)
+ 1d8 * .35 * .05 * 2 = 0.1575 (miss then crit)
+ 1d8 * .35 * .6 * .05 *2 = 0.0945 (miss twice, then crit)
There is a difference between starting 60' away, and staying 60' away.
Getting an extra round to damage an enemy, even if it's low damage, is still good.
And rangers don't do 1d6+1+1d8.
...I should compare hunter's edge to flurry...
I made a mistake somewhere.
I forgot to add the barbs weapon specialization.
Fighter vs Barb:
level 4 doesn't change.
50% chance to hit, 25% chance to crit + 45% chance to hit, 5% crit.
(.5 + .25*2)+(.45 + .05 *2) = 1.55
2d12+4 = 17 * 1.55
50% hit, 15% crit + 35% hit, 5% crit
(.5 + .15*2)+(.35 + .05 *2) = 1.25
2d12+4+4 = 21 * 1.25
To toss Giant barb
So barbs do more damage than fighters at high levels.
Not how the defense scales.