Martialmasters's page

So we have a martial class, who has a small set of *spells* with a equivalent proficiency to a full caster (legendary class DC scaling) and uniquely bad defenses (saves).

Currently, invoking damage runes is just way better than striking. Things like engraving strike and remote detonation are good in the sense that it lets you do a martial thing (strike) with your class thing (runes)

Both of these are optional feats.

What is the martial proficiency doing for this class?

To be clear, I actually love the concept of the class. Specifically the runes and that whole mechanic. To the point where I'd gladly give up martial proficiency for other things.

But, currently your selling it to us as a martial class, who would rather spend it's time not doing martial things

It's tricky, if you nerf invoke damage too much it becomes a trap option and it's a low damage martial with support spell like abilities.

If you don't nerf invoke damage enough, why would I strike with a weapon, why would I invest time and resources into it?

And then, there is the paranoia (for me and I imagine others) of the class coming out of the play test like the magus. With a rote action routine to force us to want to use strikes.

Primarily ranged, level 8. Air repeater, bayonet, rondache

Human
Rune singer+remote detonation
Fortifying knock
Transpose etching
Tracing trance
Runic reprisal

Team
War priest
Flurry ranger short bow
Paladin with one hand reach weapon and ranged reprisal

Goal is to stand 15 ft from paladin (in range of his reaction)

Most action routines were 2 action trace+remote detonation

Etchings were

Ramparts on champion to raise his shield for him
Whetstone on champion
Whetstone on my weapon

Working with the assumption that tracing trance doesn't disallow the unique runic reprisal

Using transpose and rune singing for emergency action compression

War priest flanks and blesses with champion

Ranger plinks further back

Experience

2d4+astral rune+invoked rune fire 6d6 sounds a lot on paper but between all 3 actions and save effects having a different balance gradient to strikes means more often the enemy saves (one enemy saved on a 6, another saved on a 9) meant I didn't out damage the ranger on normal action routine rounds and regularly did less.

The champion appreciated the occasional free action shield raise. I really invoked my etching instead using it to ensure constant bleed. But if the enemy rushed me it was an option.

I could burst well if I wanted to dedicate the time (actions)

First encounters we decided to do some of my own suggestions

Lowered invoke damage to d4s

Made it so I could only invoke once per round (again, ignoring runic reprisal special reaction invoke)

It seemed much more acceptable,

General feedback,

My normal action routine was a bit boring but self inflicted. It wasn't bad at all and remote detonation invoking on miss is very appreciated.

Damage felt high but not as high as you'd expect by the nature of saves. Install it was smoother than multiple attacks but I didn't steal the flurry rangers thunder.

Defense with my build in particular felt adequate to good for a round or two. Beyond that I wanted to get away.

Mobility was hohum, not Paramount for my build but it definitely impacted turns.

Once we made the house rules, my damage curve still felt good, same minimum, less maximum, and the multi invoke cheese died (I only used it once)

I know we have remote detonation.

I dunno about you but I'd much rather have engraving strike at range considering invoke can already be done at range.

I think this deserves it's own thread. It's obvious at this point, that with creative use of etchings and feats, that this class can reach high burst potential.

My fear is that to nip this, devs will decimate this classes action economy and limit it to a bog standard routine.

So my thought was, what is there was a limit on the number of runes you can have on a target. But that limitation was based on the legal application of the rune, not a hard number.

Currently runes can be put on weapons, armor z shields and creatures/objects.

So what if we could only apply one creature rune on a creature at a time?

What if only one weapon rune on a weapon. One shield rune on a shield. Etc.

You don't touch the classes action compression, you still have a ton of room for creativity. But you'll only be detonating 2 runes for direct damage typically. A weapon and a rune on a creature like fire or thunder.

I don't know about you guys. But this feat seems to imply we are missing some runes.

Because I don't want to constantly glow like a lantern all the time. I don't want to inflict a constant negative resistance to fire. And I don't want to commit a slow death through ticking electric damage or complete exhaustion.

I don't see anything stopping me from using transpose etching to move a still active rune off a dead target to a living one.

The one class feature for scaling undead lore is about the only reason.

The internal dirge speaks wisdom or charisma to me.

I'd love them to be charisma. But mainly because I'm desperate to get a Cha based prepared caster someday.

Magus play test had it's problems but was imo undeniably more interesting of a class overall in terms of expression and creativity.

Right more runesmith has that, but we are at risk of flattening it and turning it into another Magus.

Reactive strike is annoying, yes the class needs better codification and rules phrasing.

But let's not accidentally flatten this class?

I still think giving invoke a flourish trait would solve majority of it's short term burst damage. Tracing lasts until the end of your next turn. If there is still an issue, it's in some of the feats, not the base cost of invoking and tracing.

Reactive strike is annoying, so is it's awkward early ranged support. If your going to lock it's ranged action compression to once a combat, just remove it.

But for reactive strike you still have legendary class DC scaling and can rune from range with better return than a magus throwing cantrips from range or burning a very limited spell slot.

That class is objectively strong and rewards creative players. When it's officially released it would be nice if it was still strong and still rewarded creativity.

This seems to be a incredibly versatile and expressive class rewarding creativity.

So it's unfortunate that some runes seem a little boring and some a little weak. I don't have much to offer on the boring side, I'm no game developer.

Rune of fire is incredibly niche on its initial effect to the point where 90 percent of the time you only casting it for it's invocation.

Why not persistent fire, weakness to fire, you can always use a different rune when you run into something with resistance.

Why make impact hurt you if your unarmed? There is so little unarmed support in this play test that this just feels mean spirited.

Thunder, why is the scaling on the non invocation+1? Make it 1d4 please.

I think if you were to change invoking to once per round (to limit the absurd potential burst while keeping from over weakening the class) you could change preservation to something a little more frequent?

Rune of intensity is odd given the removal of ability mod to cantrips. At higher levels it's hard to justify an entire action for a single source is 6-7 damage.

Homecoming is a rare example of arguably too much power. Given it has no range limit or even dimension. You could use it to yoink a friendly or if maze.

Rune of gravity is one of those rare ones where majority of the time you just don't want to invoke.

A lot of runes I feel their passive effect do not line up with their invocation. I want hard decisions. Which means passive effects need to be good as well as invocation.

Then we just need some more runes, with just a runesmith can quickly get most if not all the runes. I know it's a play test but it's still worth mentioning.

I can tell you majority of the time as a off kas martial, I'm going to be spending my first 3 of my 4 known runes on whetstone, fire and thunder.

I'd also like some better feat support. Make engraving strike simply add a strike to your trace. So long as you have the ability to hit the opponent. That means two action ranged strikes with tracing and one action melee tracing.

Currently while ranged gets there, it definitely takes a bit to kick in. Feels clunky.

This is pretty short and sweet. I love flesh magician, it having a effect on every thrall death is amazing. I think the other two should have effects on death as well instead of their current abilities.

Bone shaper: when a thrall dies if leaves a pile of shattered spikey bones that deal piercing damage when you walk into the space.

Spirit monger: when a thrall dies it's incorporeal essence lingers. Targeting something through or in this space has concealment. Others outside of the essence are concealed you those inside it.

Maybe these are too strong, but flesh magician unlocked so much fun for me, I just want the other two to have effects on death.

I've always loved wizard, secondary cleric. Can't help it. I love all the spell slots and tend to avoid casters with less. I really didn't enjoy the psychic personally.

So I'm very surprised and pleased that I like this class as much as I do

Int based prepared occult caster? You have my interest. I prefer prepared casting. Dirge is a interesting flavor. I like you think of it as throat singing.

Create thrall: at a base level you can look at this as a 30ft 1d6 spell attack that can benefit and provide flanking. Just in it's own, that's good. That's amazing. I love that.

Consume thrall: built in focus point regeneration is welcome.

Subclasses: for me it's all about the flesh magician. I don't want to be as close to the enemy as bone spear wants with bone shaper and spirit monger isn't bad but doesn't wow me. Flesh magician giving me something that doesn't immediately kill a thrall (dead weight) but encourages enemies to spend map or be hindered. Plus their class feature creating difficult terrain is fantastic synergy.

Mastery of life and death: seems niche? Like, makes void warp better.

Undead lore: is really cool and combine it with bone speaker and they are instantly a pretty great recall knowledge character with one skill.

Inevitable return: is nice to have though I'd like it if it worked with you liked undead so long as they had a corporeal form.

Feats:

Bone spear: decent for a melee necromancer

Deadweight: amazing, synergizes with it's own subclass ability (they kill the thrall on them and are standing in difficult terrain) and since the thrall isn't consumed or dead, if they don't kill the thrall. Well, you can have some fun.

Life tap: it's good, it's jive that they can move and do their thing making it very reliable.

Reach of the dead: I wish this let me cast touch spells through the thread if I'm honest.

Conceal spell: thematic for some necromancers and I think this could let you spook some town guards.

Muscle barrier: this is fantastic, 2 actions to give someone 10 thp and +1 Athletics, scales amazing. Looking to play at level 7 and that's 40 HP.

Necrotic bomb: very nearly fireball. Incredible value.

Reapers weapon familiarity: first big stinker. At bare minimum this needs to give crit spec to these weapons.

Bony barrage: this is pretty good. Decent AOE that you can also buff your allies inside of and have them avoid damage. Seems a nice alternative to the next feat to get rid of excess thralls.

Draining strike: I want to like this, and on paper, it's pretty good. Extra d4 per thrall is nice. But I'll be honest, the healing is meh. The damage is low. I'd rather it do more damage and maybe apply a condition on hit/crit. You can get a decent amount of healing and temp HP already from other sources.

Bone burst: I love this a lot. If you place multiple thralls on the battlefield then you have a good chance at this pseudo reactive strike.

Reclaim power: I like how this technically scales with your level because you can easily summon more thralls.

Zombie horde: sounds fun but by my reading it's also very cumbersome. It said it deals damage to creatures in it but you can choose to sacrifice a thrall? It doesn't automatically hit the thrall?

Conglomerate of limbs: 40 HP and never gets crit means it might survive a moment. No limit on the number of creatures it tries to grab. Sustain to move. Huge sized (more flesh magician synergy)

Osteo armaments: I want to love this! On one hand, incredible versatility if you can get martial weapon proficiency. On the other hand, it's weak. Or rather becomes weak. I'd prefer the ability to sacrifice other thralls and giving it more property runes as a result. If only for that round. Something like (if you would sacrifice a thrall, gain unholy rune until the beginning of your next turn) or something.

Desperate surge: this is interesting because it means you can be a Dex gish or even just a dedicated caster and do a strong athletic maneuver. This is really fun.

Life sense: this is funny but I'm uncertain you it's value.

Quickened casting: standard stuff

Become as spirit: this is probably my favorite of the three level 12 options, very useful to essentially never be bottlenecked. Get those wands of tailwind ready

Reinforced skeleton: 2 resistances and a lot of speed, honestly what isn't to like.

Vital conduit: double toughness (makes me want to play a dwarf for triple). The sickened effect forces my favorite subclass down a melee path that I don't personally want to go down, so a little sad.

Necrotic focus: it's use is dependant on GM and campaign I think.

Recurring thrall: frankly, incredible. Occupies space, frightened, and it keeps coming back!

Skeletal lancers: creating 5 thralls is reason enough for this? Wait, at this level aren't we already summoning 3 for one action? Maybe up the piercing to 10?

Desperate revival is funny because you could potentially kill a teammate.

Effortless concentration: really nice depending on the thralls you summon

Flesh tsunami: please be 60ft not 30ft. But for two thralls that's some devastating movement denial.

Bind heroic spirit: I imagine this to be the prime gish option, would be nice if it scaled, starting at +1 allowing you to pick it earlier.

Ectoplasmic aura: is this just a constant effect? Because that's pretty strong.

Living graveyard: this enables some great multi thrall use options as you litter the field in thralls.

Mortem ultimatum: what's not to like

Perfected thrall: this seems good? I wonder how quickly it dies though. Can you make the perfected thrall latch onto an enemy with dead weight? Lol

Overall impression: I love this class, if you indulged upon this read you will see I like most of it's features. It's a great resilient battlefield controller/damage dealer/ok gish.

My personal pain points are mainly in reapers weapon familiarity and osteo armaments.

I've googled this and I've seen no real breakdown that isn't mostly just going by feeling.

I was looking to a minotaur with a reach weapon. It SOUNDS fun to line up... Lines and cones at the end of a stick as a large creature.

But you have few slots, so it starts becoming a question if what you can really do.

Your large and melee, meaning you may melt vs reactive strikes and your just a big target. Defensive spells might be smarter.

Scrolls cost gold.

Your DC will be less. While it's only substantially at the last two levels, it's not bad before then.

Devastating spell strike is objectively better than spell strike because you can spend the same actions and resources and deal 3-5 splash damage that only hits foes.

But for some reason I still feel it sucks.

The splash doesn't hit the target. The splash scales PITIFULLY. And the single thing I thought it could be good for, hitting multiple targets with a weakness. Is incredibly unwieldy.

Do you take this feat? How do you feel about it.

I really enjoy the concept of this class. My issue becomes in how it goes at the table.

Every table I've played at has either the GM sighing over the million questions that get asked in attempt to gain a lead and keep it applicable to future encounters yet unknown. Or they don't allow them because of how much this can slow down a session.

That's not to say the general impact at the table when other players feel like your slowing things down or taking up too much of the time.

Basically in a game that's gone above and beyond in many ways to codify and create rules. Investigator sticks out like a sore thumb.

So how do you codify it? How do you change it to work smoothly in a party without the constant "GM may I?" Situation.

I think one issue is das being so tied to persue a lead. Why does the investigator need them to be subject of a lead to devise a stratagem? They are basically analyzing their opponent for an opening or weakness. Let it be that, maybe give them a to hit bonus or something else when they are subject of their lead.

Das and therefore the classes precision damage being tied to a once an attack per round option is fine. But that option needs to be more consistent then

Also making it a fortune effect makes little sense
Your observation and strategy is not divine guidance or luck.

I wish I could say I had great ideas on this. So instead I ask you all. How would you run, interpret, or change this class to smooth it out.

I've been holding in this feeling/worry that wizard is going to be essentially nerfed from it's current state.

I keep telling myself, wait for remaster to come out.

Then the preview happened and I'm really struggling to contain myself so I thought I'd let out my worries here and you all can either salve them or irritate them lol.

I like schools, but they are so limited I feel like that extra spell slot has become... disappointing. Those slots you'd often choose spells that remain useful even at low spell slots

With the much more narrow scope of options with the schools changes, I fear we can no longer do this, resulting in spell slots that become very nearly dead weight as I level.

Combine this with what seems to be like next to no mechanical changes to the class. I worry they will... Just be worse.

We haven't seen focus spell changes or possibly any good new low level feats.

I'm not knocking play at high level but the feat shown is for level 14. While interesting I'm in agreement with others that is could have been much lower.

I don't think they will be unplayable, and maybe I'm biased, but wizard seemed good but not particularly strong already unless your DM is very very generous to knowledge of what you will be facing regularly.

I'll still play them, just very sad the preview actually made me more worried about the class, instead of hyped.

I did 3 separate playtests with the exemplar, mainly to test out ways to utilize their shift/transcendence abilities and how they seemed to interact with the action economy, as I love this games action economy, but loathe action restricted classes (so, love monk, loathe magus, as example).

my exemplar hope-being rewarded for juggling transcendence and creating synergies

realization- the actual play felt much better when I used shift sometimes more than transcend.

my issue with this- shift is a nothing burger, an action tax to justify power, nothing seems to synergize with it, there is nothing I can take to make that opportunity cost easier. While using it made my experience far better, using it also made me feel like I enjoyed the class less.

lot of the transcend abilities are not abilities you want to wait around for, they are not abilities where you transcend your weapon so next round you can transcend your worn and help your party members reroll saves.

now many of them are quite good, but they essentially become 2-3 action routines.

my feedback: id like more ways to interact or action suppress with shift, as it seems much more important to the flow of the class than i first though, while also feeling fairly isolated, making it feel like, at least, to me, an action tax akin to reload or recharge.

gunslingers get ways to interact with reload, id like more ways to interact with shift

Outside of armor, shield, and attenuator.

I'm struggling to think of things to buy. Playing with consumables is fine. But something a bit more permanent would be nice.

What do you guys think are good items you buy for a kineticist as you level, especially for one that DOESN'T have kinetic activation.

If you do, what's been your experience. If not, why not?

For me nearly every (but not every) caster I make has either a 16 strength or dexterity at level 1.

I pick a weapon, sometimes grabbing a dedication (Archer being a favorite) where I invest money into runes.

I often take feats such as bespell weapon or divine weapon.

I do this and it feels good. I enjoy being able to, when not needing to do something else, to fire a spell slot or save cantrip into a weapon strike. With potency runes, and no attack penalty, I feel I can hit often enough that it feels effective and worthwhile.

Why do I do this? Because I like maximizing my action impacts, and a action to use the meta magic *draw scroll* isn't exciting to me. I'll do it, but only in the most dire of scenarios.

Staves I use largely for ooc utility.

I feel I contribute to the group and to a battle more by doing this than by choosing not to

To be up front. I enjoy casters in pf2e. I think they are powerful, versatile, and a lot of fun.

But early levels are rough. Especially levels 1-2.

My hope was the early level caster experience would either largely stay the same. Or get buffed.

2 spells isn't much, 3 if your a wizard or sorcerer.

Cantrips are not just supplemental options but your bread and butter until you find that moment in the fight try use a slot.

They cost 2 actions, often have less reach than a short bow. But you at least got your ability mod to damage.

Me rolling a 1 meant I did 5 damage.

Now rolling 1s mean 2-3 damage

I could understand it if you could spend one action to do 1d4 and 2 to do 2d4. It would give casters more early game flexibility and let them interact with the action economy more meaningfully.

But as it stands right now? Until/unless something is shown that we are not aware of in the sneak peak conversion pdf. You just made casters early level experience even worse.

I'm not so concerned with spell changes, looks like even more versatility Wich I favor.

But we need to discuss how your going to make early level caster play better.

It doesn't have to be ability mod to damage. But it needs something imo.

I don't know if level 1 spells need to become at will abilities that never run out or actually use slots

Ability mod to damage

More dice

All starting with 2 focus spells and making focus spells good across the board

Or something else.

As it stands right now, every single caster before this remaster,I invested in a weapon, because it's 1 action Wich pairs insanely well with casters 2 action routine. And expert isn't too bad to hit with when you have item bonus to hit and no map penalties.

But after remaster? I'm definitely prioritizing ranged weapons over fun little spell items.

A staff? Maybe when I'm really high level, and probably just for ooc utility.

Phoebe Adair

She was an eldritch anatomist but quickly realized during her apprenticeship that she couldn't stomach all the fleshy bits up close. She became vegan as a result.

She had a dream of becoming an adventurer but wound up with child. She raised her child in the forest where she grew super into gardening care and growing her own produce.

Mid 30s her child left the house to strike out on their own. Feeling lonely, she decided to finally take up her dream of becoming an adventurer!

She doesn't swear, preferring to use her own terms when upset, and always treats everyone like someone to "mother", always looking out for them.

Human female kineticist. Eldritch anatomist background. Dual gate wood/air. Level 6

1: timberland sentinel - protector tree is a fantastic spell, having it all the time is incredible damage mitigation for your martials.

1: four winds - this is incredible. 4 people within 30 feet, you can target yourself, 2 actions no overflow, and it doesn't cost your team anything.

1: fresh produce - niche healing, it's good if they have a free hand, otherwise just ok. But you cannot undervalue the nostalgia of your mother yelling at you to eat your vegetables

1: natural ambition: hail of thorns - for when mama bear needs to protect her cubs

1: heritage: fleet - turning you four winds half movement from 10 to 15 ft.

2: free:

3: incredible initiative: the TBM needs to act swiftly

4: safe elements - the TBM would never willingly put her cubs in harms way

5: air aura - suddenly having 40ft movement and selectively giving another team member +10 for maximum positioning

5: ravel of thorns - not only are you fast, not only can you buff a players speed, not only can you give your party half their speed outside of their turn. Now you impose a 10ft movement reduction and hurt them for every square moved.

6: dash of herbs - a strong ranged heal with great utility. The TBM has learned to season that produce!

Note: I went medic dedication at 2 for automatic trained battle medicine.

What do we have: the TBM is a paramount of dedicated mitigation and positioning. Whether you stand and face tank, relying on her heals and trees, or whether you need quick advantageous positioning. The TBM makes it possible.

Because barricade buster is an advanced weapon

Inventor's who take weapon invention cannot use it even with orc weapon familiarity by the wording in the inventor class

Given how much they mess with traits, I'm surprised they don't have a level 1 feat to give them advanced weapon access...

I know dpr is far from the end all be all

But I love combination weapons

I hate d4s

So I wonder what the projected difference with be with a level 6 trigger brand with trigger brand salvo and 18 strength and 19 Dex (started with 16/18)

When using the triggerbrand weapon. D6 finesse melee strike into d4 (fatal d8) ranged strike

Vs

Hammer gun, d8 non finesse melee strike, d6 (fatal d10) ranged strike

I love this weird weapon.

One part 2 hand d8 flail with reach and razing

One part 20ft range 2h d6 sling with razing and ranged trip

And it's dwarven advanced weapon.

My first thought is dwarven fighter (obligatory halfling adoption)

Going mauler and ranger dedications (ranger running reload works with slings) and gravity weapon seems good. Getting far shot to bump that 20ft rage e from 20 to 40 seems reasonable for most maps.

Any thoughts?

I love the inventor class (I know some don't, that's ok)

But I feel like they are lacking in feats.

Levels 1-10 are slim pickings and at level 1/2 I can't really tell you any of them sound interesting.

Gadgets are cool and I like the concept

Post 10 I feel like they can get some fun stuff.

I do find it weird you really only get a single combat maneuvers feat in the mid teens

Maybe this is a nothing post, but I really do wish they had a few more feats.

When I build a barbarian I have the opposite issue, so many feats I wish I could take double feats

Inventor though? It's a bit of a struggle out here.

Familiars can get two abilities I'm looking at for this combo

Independent to give it one action every round

Partner in crime so it can use it's action to prepare to aid my next deception check

Convincing illusion reaction let's me try to fool someone that my illusion they just disbelieved is actually.. Real, requires a deception check

Can my familiar spend it's action to prepare a aid reaction to my convincing illusion reaction to give it a +3 circumstance bonus on my check at level 7?

In treasure vault I spotted the scroll robes and casters targe.

Both have the inscribed trait.

This let's you basically place a scroll in those items and negates the need for a draw action to activate the scroll.

They are easily affordable at level 1 and still have money to buy basic necessities and 1-2 level 1 scrolls.

This is the type of support equipment I like to see and was surprised to not see anyone excited for them.

As a wizard, going from 3 spells, up to 3 casts (drain bonded item)

To 5 spells, 6 casts in a day, at level 1
.
It's just massive, I consider these pretty much must haves for a full caster at level 1 focusing on their spells (obviously someone like a warpriest wouldn't be as interested)

What's your thoughts? To me one of the biggest pain points for low level casters is just spell slots, this turns two scrolls into basically bought and paid for spell slots. As they don't require an action to draw.

I'm running a orc illusionist wizard with the mirror heritage I'm upcoming abomination vaults.

I'm going full in on charisma for things like convincing illusion eventually.

So 18 intelligence and 16 charisma.

I have 17hp and 14 ac at level 1.

Spells:

Summon animal: if this thing takes attention away from me and my party it's a win, if it deals damage or successfully supplies an effect, mega win

Illusory object: deep dived into this spell as well as illusions in general so I have a strong basis with my GM on what will and won't work.

Grease: almost always useful especially at low level

My last spell slot is giving me uncertainty though.

Mage armor? I'd go to 15 ac and I'm just not sure how much difference that's gonna make in the moment

Shattering gem: DC 11 flat check to block 5 damage and do damage back

Command: could be good but no effect on success might be rough too

Fleet step: when in doubt, run faster

Mud pit: steep action cost but decent size for the level

I'll also have my mirror heritage reaction, shield Cantrip, steel shield

Pretty much title. It's an interesting topic to me

So far the only time I've seen advanced weapons get taken is because they are

1- objectively superior , we saw this with gnome flickmace, it's used to argue with a 1d8 one hand reach weapon with a good damage type and an incredible critical effect.

2- because the person gained access to it via an archetype so why not, bonus.

The issue is the value of feats and the value of becoming better in combat.

Due to how the game tries to build out wide instead of tall (options instead of power) as you level, anything that can literally make it so more damage or be more consistent in said damage are almost always considered great picks.

So for the price of a feat, class in case if fighter, or ancestry. You get access to specific advanced weapons. But class feat even for fighters advanced weapon training is a huge ask.

Ancestry feats are one of the rarer feats you get in the game. So spending your precious feat instead of getting spell like abilities, cantrips, swim speed, etc... Is kinda rough

But giving you access for free seems not right either.

Personally I'm hoping paizo releases a book in the next year that is full of archetypes as well as class archetypes that might give advanced weapon access at level 1 but in a way that is flavorful and maybe not the objectively no brain best option.

To be fair, I'm aware most advanced weapons are not strictly better given the way people value certain traits. But giving everyone advance weapons for free still seems unhelpful as an option as tables will just become full of falcata and flick mace and whatever other stronger weapon.

What are your thoughts?

So I thought I understood how illusions worked mechanically in this system but then I've gotten replies or comments on the Internet that make me question this.

Can someone break down how you interact with illusions exactly?

My understanding.

Someone casts illusionary object and now there is a wall between you and the caster.

You have to interact with the illusion (spend an action) to have a chance at making a will save. If you do not pass, you have to continue believing the illusion.

Someone told me that if you see the caster, cast the illusion, you get a free will save without an action

Someone else said that if you touched the wall your hand would go through it so even if you fail the will save you can figure out to walk through the wall

Just trying to figure out the mechanics better before I get to playing my illusionist

With the DND thing, this forum and others outside of paizo website, has had a lot of players coming in with a mindset I had eventually, mostly, walked away from

Making the objectively best, strongest mechanical choice in my character building.

Essentially feeling that if I didn't make the optimal choice, I'm making a mistake.

Now pf2e has what you could debate as optimal choices. Starting with an 18 in your main stat being the low hanging fruit example.

But what I ended up loving about pf2e, was the fact that the difference between someone trying to build optimally and someone using to build for the picture they have in their head. Was that the power difference is either minimal or not there at all. To paraphrase the DND deep dive clip "I've walked into a toy store and all the toys are free*

This eventually lead me to, knowing that the difference is minimal, start making characters that are often less about optimization and more about what I can, optimization of theme. I say this because I don't know a better term.

Like I could take my giant instinct barbarian with druid dedication (actually took no spells) and take monk dedication later. Get flurry of blows. I'd have an objectively stronger combat character. (He was using a giant boe staff verdant weapon already)

But then I would not feel I'm playing the barbarian mountain man of my imagination.

Then I go build a giant instinct barbarian monk dedication because it was still a cool idea it just didn't fit with my other idea lol

To me optimal means best, the best choice, period. Every other choice is inferior.

When I played 5e that was clear, easy, broken synergy was easy to find and quick to learn. If you knew as much or more than your DM good luck to them. It wasn't in bad faith, I just enjoy exploring the boundaries of systems, and I was labeled a power gamer and a munchkin for it. I had gotten several things permanently nerfed at tables simply because I knew how to use them. Invalidating other players was not my intent but it was almost hard not to do at times

But maybe others view the term optimization differently? Hence I am here to ask, what does optimization mean to you all?

It's been a while from my Google search that these two spells were discussed.

I know illusions still have a good bit of gm interpretation in them but figured I'd ask

Object has a 20ft burst. Does that mean you could create something that can move around but only within that burst,. What about a "sword of ultimate power* with a level 2 illusory object? Could an enemy pick it up and try to hit me with it? Obviously it would not do damage.

What constitutes an object? A waterfall in the example is a pretty big complex thing with a channel, a mouth, rushing water, etc. Would a maze be an object or multiple objects? What about a chair then? It's made of multiple pieces of wood and a maze is multiple pieces of wall.

How would you run an intelligent group of enemies against it? Would every creature have to seek/interact with a wall to see/walk through it?

What happens when one of the enemies passes the check and audibly tells them that it's fake? Do they all get a free check with no action? I'd assume those that failed could easily retry.

Illusory creature, it doesn't state what kind of strike. Could it be an arrow?

It has no movement speed but it has a range. Illusory creature as a high level monk running at 200+ feet?

What happens when it hits a creature? Does that count as an interaction for the enemy to disbelieve since it touched them? Or does illusory creature even allow firing an arrow since that would not be a part of the creature, but a weapon?

Looking at some of the new weapons, some are basically advanced weapons with the martial weapon label and straight up better than other existing weapons.

It's weird to see the scimitar just be straight up inferior with the release of this book.

It's quite minor I know, but I don't really like it.

Building an illusionist for upcoming abomination vaults. I know bard is easier but I don't want to play one.

My first question is what do you think is acceptable stat spread? Typically I built all my no armor characters the same. 18 in my main stat and 16 Dex .

But I want to be able to lie and convince others of my lies. My current stat spread is 18int,14dex,14cha,12wis

Leaving me with 15 ac and 16hp

16 ac is bad enough to me. 15ac and+3 fort sounds almost terrifying.

But not being able to lie even semi convincingly until level 5 kinda makes my concept fall flat.

What's your experience been with 12-14 Dex wizards that also have only 10-12 con? Is this just suicidal? I have not taken mage armor yet either, not a big fan of having to expend a spell slot right away every day. Especially at level 1.

I do have a steel shield, shield Cantrip, and reflection ancestry reaction along with shattering gem. Maybe combined with teamwork it's fine but I definitely feel like I'm going to get instantly dropped a lot.

As for spell usage, I'm just really curious to how people have used illusion spells to great effect in actual play

And in general, no spoilers for abomination vaults please and thanks

I'm always at a loss on were to post them. If I'm honest.

Using free archetype. How would you build an interesting barbarian druid?

One I'm working on is a giant instinct barbarian using verdant weapon and flavor the large bo staff as wielding a tree.

Feats are rough. But it's mostly focusing on defense and utility on the druid side. By level 8 I'll have resistances to, bludgeoning, electricity, cold (winter touched human), fire and poison.

How would you build them?

I'm building a free archetype frilled lizardfolk fighter with bard then provocateur dedications.

Biggest thing I'm looking at is dirge of doom. Inspire courage. Harmonize and call and response.

I have little experience with bards.

Am I right it's two actions to harmonize inspire courage+dirge of doom?

Call and response, does this just freely persist round after round do long as a team member can spend an action to keep it rolling?

Does the location of dirge then change?

Idea is to have a Doom metal fighter and the party becomes his band

this post is for various ideas ive had, been inspired by from others, or have seen on here that seem good to me. feel free to tell me why they are bad or would need revision in general. helps gain perspective for me on things i might not have considered. feel free to post your own ideas too!

1- Medium armor, currently kineticist needs a feat tax and be human to start level 1 as a strength based and not risk getting torn apart before you can even pay a medium armor proficiency feat tax at later levels. considering you have a couple elements that largely are strength based, it makes no sense as they already have the flexible blasts as a feat tax just to use ranged options.

2- remove impulse trait for basic blasts, currently everything this class does provokes attack of opportunity. now, abilities are fine, but basic strikes of the class shouldn't be provoking. at least for the melee portion of the class's blasts. you can flavor it as with it being so close to you its as natural as swinging a weapon or something.

3- give a damage bump through gather elements. example. let the class do their basic blasts without gather energy. but with gather energy apply half your con to damage on blasts. apply full con to damage on overflow impulses that do damage with saves. this would apply a small but noteworthy damage boost to the class, and i do not think it should need a skill check to achieve as we already have that with extract element in order to be functional vs certain enemies. plus not every class needs to be inventor.

4- make shield feat somehow not proc attack of opportunity, in the very least, not the reaction portion.

5- currently gates are not very distinguished beyond limitation of elements available and starting feats. perhaps a little something to ebb them out more from one another? im not sure what here. dedicated should perform BETTER than dual/universal at there one element, currently they do not seem to. Dual should be able to cycle between the elements the fastest. Universal is already the most versatile.

6- im not sure as to the point of elemental weapon if its still limited to a one handed weapon. other than if you wanted different weapon traits like reach on earth with a flickmace.

7- if melee blasts not provoking attack of oportunity is too much, we should be forced into modes, costing an action, to switch between ranged and melee blasts, so there is a resource cost in terms of actions used. so we dont have to suffer attack of opportunity reactions for basic strikes.

feel free to add your own, im not going to critique anyones ideas in this thread personally. though i may ask questions on them. rather this would be a thread to house ideas.

1- it seems to be on everything
2- multiple abilities seem to imply not having an element when used, but have the impulse trait making it so you need the element gathered beforehand (off the top of my head the dedicated gate feat where you can add a reaction catch the element thrown at you)
3-it provokes attack of opportunity.

Now for spell like abilities it can kinda make sense to me.

But basic blasts? Shield block on the earth shield ability?

At this point for proper playtesting I think it would be appreciated if some clarity was brought to some mechanical aspects of certain feats and features. As they, SEEM, to be resulting in unforseen or unintended consequences.

I don't expect any of these to be used at all. But this is just my thoughts and suggestions, unfettered by the idea of a balance budget. Should be fun.

Medium armor access, this fixes unnecessary feat taxes and gives support to strength kineticist.

Con to damage on overflow attacks

Legendary class DC, nobody else gets this, if their overflow abilities never get better than a cantrip I guess it's fine.

My take on burn mechanic. You get a number of burns per day equal to your con mod. When you apply burn to your basic strikes you get +1 to hit and add your con mod to damage. If you use it on an overflow ability. You remove the overflow trait for that round. In doing so you take damage equal to double your level. This makes it so you can lose the opportunity cost of an overflow if needed or giving you a damage and accuracy boost kinda similar to ki strike but at a greater cost.. Given it's increased flexibility. It needs to effect our blast's because you do not start with a overflow ability. Or else this feature needs to be a feat and it would feel like a feat tax. Yes they still get con to damage.

Obviously these ideas do not take into account how this will effect every other ability that currently exists.

I think that's about it? This feels hella pushing things to me as it is.

Next to accuracy and damage complaints. The biggest gripe is overflow.

Now I think as far as the strike portion of the class. The damage is largely fine. I agree the aoe stuff seems lacking.

But is it arbitrarily lacking or does it have reason?

Many of these actions are versions of actual spells. Wich have a finite uses per day. So it makes sense that there must be other limits. If a kineticist could cast a full fireball every round without every stopping that would not be balanced.

Overflow and the damage seem to be due to the frequency of Wich you can use these abilities.

So the question I pose to you. Where are you willing to compromise?

What if you had a font similar to warpriest?

What if they were only once per day?

In either case you could probably see a damage bump.

These are just ideas. What's your idea? Do you actually think they should be on par with even focus spells but have no real limit and still be 2 actions with no extra cost?

Note: I am going to do my best to not talk about proposed changes or ideas. This is not what this post is for. Rather I want to give my feedback on every facet I can of the class. What I think is good. What I think isn't. And why I feel that way. This will be based on reading the playtest a lot along with a few mock combat scenarios with 3 kinds of kineticists.

1-high Dex high con DC kineticist
2-high strength high con DC kineticists
3-high Dex/str low con attack focused kineticist

I won't go into detail on the combats. Just giving my feelings.

Start with base class.

8 hit dice she key con is interesting but makes them about on par with a normal martial in terms of HP

I'm surprised they have a martial kit. I was expecting casters. I like this in truth. And a class that focuses more openly on class DC is an interesting choice. I have no major opinions on the weird times the kineticist improves it's martial proficiency other than it seems to be a misprint. But maybe not

My feelings on the base kit. I don't mind that you are 1 point behind on "optimal" martial builds so long as we get stuff to compensate. That said. Missing is also never fun. You will miss more. But will you really notice that +1 missing? Will you ask your DM to tell you every time you miss by 1 do you can make a running tally of personal grievances against such a design choice? I likely won't ever notice this issue in real life play.

Gates. Dedicated, dual, universal. First impression. 3 level 1 feats? Nice! 2 but for different types? Nice! 1 feat of your choice every day? That's really good. If this was all there is I'd be pretty much fine with this. But I have issues.

Issue 1: dedicated gate feels at this stage of character creation a trap. Meaning I'm potentially going to be in a situation where my entire class is possibly useless. Wich will feel bad. D

Issue 2: there is a class feature that gives you damage resistance to an element you can cast. Universalist gets so much from this age the defense is so good. It basically turns both other versions into trap decisions. You lose at most 2 level 1 feats in exchange for so much more versatility, both offense and defense.

Let's continue

Gather element, my thoughts. It's basically draw weapon. In some ways. I assume specifically mentioning being able to drop it, similar to dropping a weapon. Has reason later. It's also kind of like a stance. Interesting.

Elemental blast: my thoughts. Interesting they set us up to be.. Arguably, one if the easiest switch hitters in the game. Absurdly so. Even better then guns with a attachment or a combination weapon. This is incredible versatility in my eyes. I'm only slightly disappointed. I'd of preferred the ability to just have these as our basic attacks at all times. Like I could make my first attack with earth and just following attack with an agile one. But we are limited to what our current gathered element is. Given our lesser accuracy. I question the validity of earth/waters traits. Second attacks will be very unlikely to hit vs a relevant foe. On top of this I'd of preferred air to be versatile piercing. Beyond that I'm curious to what the other two elements will provide for damage types.

Adapt element, my thoughts. Just seems like a fun little ribbon effect that you might never use it might make a mildly memorable moment. No further thoughts at the moment.

Extract element: my thoughts. Ah. So this is meant for dedicated and dual gates primarily but can see use from all 3. It has a fantastic effect even on success. Class DC and targeting fortitude kinda hurts. But this is an offensive version of gather element. The -1 to ac and saves is clearly meant to help compensate for the fact that Con is our key ability modifier. Overall? A fantastic ability thanks to the affect on save. I just wish I could use it on basic humanoids and such. It might be niche and require meta gaming.

Adapt terrain, my thoughts. This might be if niche benefit. Wild have liked up to 1 bulk though!

Elemental flexibility, my thoughts, I love this stuff. It's one of my favorite things fighters get.

Pure adaptation, my thoughts. I like it. It's getting better and better. But I struggle to imagine immediate uses. Maybe this will reward the very creative.

Elemental immunity, my thoughts. Same as resistance. It makes it so why would you ever use the other gate styles. Unless... Can you extract and use an element that's not part of your gate? If you can... Might not be so bad.

Final gate, my thoughts. This is nice. Similar to what many classes get around this level.

Feats!

Elemental familiar, honestly I'm the wrong person to talk about familiars with. I usually just use them for focus batteries and kineticists don't use focus.

Elemental weapon, I like this as it gives us access to martial weapons essentially. Though at the expense of not being able to use extract element by by reading... And imo extract element is going to be very key to the class. Though I wonder. Given the limitation of extract element. It might just be a straight damage upgrade in some scenarios.

Flexible blasts, one feat and boom, you are a competent switch hitter no matter the gates you are using. Love this feat.

Kinetic activation, this seems extremely good especially as you get to higher levels. Maybe not a low level pick though.

Voice of elements, I don't know if I can I have the stat budget for a niche face kineticist.

Blast barrage, 3 attacks for 2 actions, normal nap, different targets. I'm kind of neutral to this. I don't know if I'd ever take it because I'm likely to never want to make a third attack. But it's decent action economy.

Command elemental, extremely niche, potentially very good. Prime flexibility bait.

Cycling blast, this is probably reason enough for me to not want to go dedicated gate. I really like the action economy of this.

Stoke element, this seems very weak in comparison. Changing it to even + to hit would be better and give another avenue for people with accuracy concerns. Either way it seems extremely clunky and weak.

Aura shaping, this seems really good for specific builds. I like they it goes off Con mod.

Chain blast, this seems incredibly nice easy for air gate to get more damage. Though it's dependant on the encounter. Still useful for others though.

Deconstruct element, the effect is good. Applications difficult however. It's just niche. You have to get hit with an earth trait to use it as example. Outside of specific adventures this feels too specific.

Fusion blast, basically power attack. Though I want to say this one is a bit better? Maybe not with the lower die size but I still like it.

Gather amalgamation, I want to like this a lot and in some ways I do. It's probably a great way to chain area of effect attacks from round to round so long as you don't have to care about resistances. Certainly fun.

Rapid reatunement, just yes

Flowing kinetics, I love action economy hacks and I imagine many a blaster caster would love a feat such as this.

Steadfast kinetics, but as fun, but decent and effective.

Effortless impulses, equivalent of a caster feat and still good imo.

Imperious aura, this is more my style though

Maelstrom blast, become the prime target immediately! I'd argue this one is worth the action cost.

Nourishing gate, it's fun, it's flavourful. It doesn't interest me a lot. But that's me and you might be different. I don't think it's bad though

Flawless elements, maybe good for very specific builds.

Omnikinesis, this is more my style, so many great feats.

Air, aerial boomerang, huge range. Maybe good for level 1 but a thin line can be hard to leverage well.

Air cushion, at 8th level this is just silly and can create many fun scenarios I feel.

Fair winds, it's fun but 2 actions to give yourself +5 movement, is steep. I know it helps the party. I'd love it more if it was variable action cost.

Whisper of the wind, good for a stealth focus!

Flinging updraft, seems useful but niche. Maybe too niche.

Soothing breeze, seems a touch weak for the action cost. I know it's because of the niche utility attached to the heal though.

Clear as air, this one is a lot of fun. I'd definitely take this on a stealth kineticist.

Storm spiral, I like these kinds of abilities. Forced movement, even 5 feet. Can save other characters entire actions.

Celestial palisade, wall of wind you could theoretically do every other round. Fantastic.

Wings of air, incredibly good. Especially the upgrade!

Circulate qi, this is a pretty good support ability overall. I'd use it.

Wiles of the wind, will save? Illusion? Man air definitely has a strong theme.

Body of air, all these spells as repeatable abilities makes me really see why overflow exists. Though I think it might exist on too many things.

Ferocious cyclone, time to retrain out of that level 1 feat.

Infinite expanse, love the concept, I don't know if it's actually that great. On paper it feels like it would be too easy to simply accidentally leave it.

Crowned in tempests fury, this is just cool. It's a buff state, not the strongest, but certainly not bad.

Earth

Geologic attunement, become toph from Avatar. All I needed.

Stepping stones, the fact others can use this is actually great. I've ran and ran into a kit of difficult terrain in my games.

Stone shield, I wonder if this would be too powerful of it only crumbled when actually destroyed.

Tremor, I'll be honest. I think this is bad. The radius is too small for what it does and I think it would target reflex. Sorry I couldn't help myself.

Dust storm, this is really cool. Fort save makes sense here even if it hurts. But the fact it just... Persists...I love it.

Restoring mud, this seems mostly solid (lol)

Igneogenesis, it's hard for me to quantify this feat. Could be really useful in niche scenarios.

Rolling Boulder, eh. It's fine. A bit boring but very thematic.

Spike skin, a good support action.

Swim through earth, this could allow for some fun tactical movement.

Hurtling rockfall, I'm hesitant on class DC attack skills but this one could do decent damage
.

Rock rampart, I'm seeing a theme. It's good.

Assume Earth's mantle, I like this a lot. It's cost intensive but if you have a chance to set up it's great. This is making me want to dual gate with air.

Stone guardian, I love this, I honestly am surprised this one isn't overflow.

Rebirth in living stone, lol what? Please don't nerf O.o

The shattered mountain, but why not reflex save.

Fire

Burning jet,I take it back, this with assume Earth's mantle lol

Eternal torch, eh, I could see some funny stuff but otherwise, get a torch

Flame eruption, it's even more niche than the air level 1 feat. Not a fan

Warming nimbus, this seems incredibly strong.

Blazing wave, better burning hands?

Desert shimmer, wishing the earths variant of this let you see through the concealment.

Crawling fire, seems.. Good but weird. I'm not sure what to think about it. I'd play with it though.

Wandering smoke, this is really good and fun

Kindle inner flames, I'm honestly impressed at the support abilities offered by this class.

Solar detonation, I'm still just.. On the fence on these things. But this one seems pretty strong in relation to it's others.

Architect of flame, wall of fire. Good!

Furnace form, this is really good by level 16.

Arrive in conflagration, this is probably more useful for the teleport than the damage but it's a nice bonus

Horrid ignition, dang this is really good.

All shall end, this is really fun especially if you think you will die next round.

Ignite the sun, this has incredible range and the group buff is great and it does damage too!

Water

Deflecting wave, I don't like overflow for a reaction but this is also powerful and covers a lot of options.

Tidal hands, I like the flexibility on this

Water dance, good, I like that it gets better when you use it on yourself.

Winters clutch, a great aura imo. Interesting you went with cold.

Return to the sea, niche but can make your fighter great in a bad situation.

Veil of mists, interesting but not my favorite.

Slippery sleet, imo this is way too weak. Damage and the balance DC.

Standing surf, yup another wall, still good.

Lowland fog, at first seems good, later elements make it seem kind of short lived for the investment.

Torrent in the blood, this is pretty good heal with pretty good rider, on comparison to the others.

Drowning sphere, I'm amazed this doesn't have an overflow tag.

Glacial prison, part of me wishes it was a cone it burst.

Barrier of boreal forest,oooo water gets two walls. Nice!

Sea glass guardian, this is cool but I don't see a kineticist desiring to tank for long. So I don't know how much use this will get

Ride the tsunami, this is pretty good. The swim speed is a nice touch.

Usurp the lunar reigns, on the whole this seems weak, it might have niche scenarios where it's very strong however.

I'm sorry this is so long. It's huge. It's unreasonable. But I did it and I'm gonna leave my spelling errors in.

My closing thoughts
.

I feel like water is the weakest. It's support abilities didn't seem great.

I enjoy that each one has an analogue skill to each other in many areas from araus to buff states and heals.

This class has much better support than I expected and I didn't hesitate to utilize my overflow for many of them.

The damage "spells" have great range and effects usually though the damage is a bit anemic.

The strike portion seems very solid to my though. Are you going to make a fighter or barbarian sweat? No. But you will do a good job and this class is probably the easiest switch hitter in the game.

I still have an issue with level 1 strength kineticist being far too easy to just straight up die before making it to achieve your feat tax to get medium armor.

I know people are upset with accuracy. I'm not. But overflow is perhaps on too many things. I absolutely agree that aoe abilities that can be done every single round or even every other round. Need some real limits. I just don't know if overflow is the way to go. After reading up on burn though. No way will that be balanced in this system.

Sorry for the gargantuan post

Simply give the class the ability to use their con mod for ac instead of dexterity.

This would open up build diversity without overtuning damage and give even those that have no interest in class DC mechanics (people like me) a reason to go into con

I think it's cool that con is their primary stat.

I don't think it's cool that the only thing it accounts for is class DC.

Class DC has always been an issue in pf2e, and why I've mostly avoided it. I'm not really sure as to the benefit of such a low DC is.

I'm curious as to what elementalist would have to give up in order to have legendary in their class DC.

If it's martial progression, I'd rather have it as an option than the default. Because I prefer the martial aspect of the class anyways.

I also get the impression brutal is for those they run 16 str/Dex and 12 con and just ignore class DC. Wich as it stands right now is probably what I'll do. I'm ok with caster DC but trying to make me play a blaster with less than that is impossible.

I love fighting games. And fighting game players for better or worse love tier lists. But there is a big difference between fighting games and ttrpgs. Mainly one is player vs player and the other is cooperative.

That said I still took to designing a tier list. Then realized it's impossible to have just one.

So am in the process of making 4.

Also note, this is ignoring level 20 capstone feats as some are so wild as you be almost impossible for me to quantify

Single Target damage- not just damage per hit, but damage per action. Consistency. Longevity. Etc. This doesn't discount burst potential but it also doesn't look at it as the only thing that matters.

Area of effect damage

Combat utility

Ooc influence

The tier lists are being designed around solely the class features, feats, and abilities (including spell school). And this isn't meant to say your bad if you try to make a single Target damage cleric or a face fighter. This is just where I view things at the moment. It's a cooperative game, you can and should play whatever you want and anyone who looks down on you for that has problems.

Single Target damage tier list, please note, due to subclasses and feats, this is largely damage potential. Not every character in this tier list will be doing this well, it will depend on how you built the character.

S tier, these classes are ahead of the game
#1- barbarian- any surprise? A static +12-18 damage will do that to you.

#2- fighter- they don't typically hit as hard without specific attacks that usually use an extra action. But they hit and critical more often.

#3- rogue - their high damage is conditional, but over time, this condition becomes *almost* negligible. Plus their main damage isn't variable and is more often than others subject to damage resistance or immunities

A tier

Ranger- rangers have a condition that must be met (hunt prey) for pretty much every new target until high levels where it goes to two. But they are incredibly consistent, though they require significant action investment for it. Whether it be being a damage turret or utilizing an animal companion. This is the only A tier

B+ tier, ok so you may be wondering why I dropped from S to A then you B+. This is how fighting game tier lists work. It's not just letters in ascending order but perceived relative power. A fighter I view as a full tier above ranger. But these next classes I view closer to ranger than ranger is to the S tier.

Magus- incredibly hard hitting alpha strikes. Serviceable normal strikes. But they are limited by now often they can recharge spell strike.

Gunslinger - incredibly hard hitting crits. But their normal hits are anemic. Coupled with action economy restrictiveness with their best weapons. Reload. You can circumvent it to an extent but not entirely.

Monk- not that hard hitting at all. But consistent. They can't lower their map like ranger. If they could they'd probably be in A tier slightly above ranger. Their incredible action economy and speed let's them be even more consistent and stances are a one action per combat investment typically until higher levels.

B tier

Swashbuckler- highly mobile, decently damaging. But their damage type is more prone to resistances and they have to jump through more hoops to keep both of these key features going. Wich can lead to inconsistency.

Inventor- limited in uses of their most powerful abilities or risk consequences. Inability to start with an 18 in Dex or strength. Resulting in you being ever so slightly less accurate through half your career. The inventor is very strong. No doubt. But needs to pick their moments.

Summoner- this one surprised me. I greatly undervalued the damage potential of certain eidolons. While they aren't doing the most. They do far more than I expected.

Druid - if a druid focused on strength and wild shapes. They have great potential damage output almost to that of your average martial. But a reliance on focus points can put you in awkward positions especially at lower levels.

Champion- they are the poster child for b tier imo. There is nothing wrong with their damage. There is also just nothing special. Their methods of increasing damage are often very niche requiring specific kinds of enemies. Their great reaction with paladin helps them a lot.

Investigator- bottom of B tier. It's not that they can't do good damage. It's just on one attack per round. They dont get max starting Dex or strength. And lot of their kit just isn't designed for damage dealing. They try to make up for that with devise a stratagem so they can really maximize on what they want to do. But that also means what they want to do sometimes isn't damage. And this is a damage tier list

C tier- alchemist and rest of the casters. It's simple. Especially as they level. Their primary single Target damage is cantrips. Wich are 2 actions. As they get much higher they can sling spells. But it's still not the same in terms of longevity or action efficiency for damage. I could argue cleric for D tier but if you could convince your GM to let you start with warpriest and retrain into cloistered later that would be better

Psychic - my gut says b tier. They can do much more with cantrips and start the game with what feels like better longevity than a typical caster.

Thaumaturge is my difficult one. I'm just not sure. Off the cuff I'd say B tier as well? They remind me of inventor without the higher damage spike's

If you read this far, thanks. Just keep in mind these lists are not purely objective. I didn't go by sole white room math but a combination of math, actual play. Practicality.

Beyond that, these are completely open for discussion and debate. I am in no way some perfect paragon if reasoning. So instead of telling each other why we are wrong. Tell me your tier list. Tell me why. Tell me why you think someone should be higher or lower.

Just keep to the rules of only valuing the classes feats and features (including spells) and as I said. I couldn't quantify many capstone feats

This is mostly a thought exercise to me.

Best two I've come up with is

Monk/druid dedication utilizing animal forms to gain higher damage dies and+2 status bonus to hit until level ten where we switch to wild morph and utilize bleed and poison persistent damage on hit. .

Other idea. Monk/beast Master dedication utilizing your excellent action economy and support benefit of say.. Maybe they bear.

Obviously multiple archetypes are allowed in this thought process. You don't have to go for this build makes narrative sense so long as it works but raw (free archetype variant factored into that).

Preface, I'm biased. I love monks!

One of my first DND character was a monk. I've made at least one every system I've played that has one. Even video games.

One if the things I liked the least though in many past systems was them being forced into ki in previous systems. I was always more a fan of the martial monk. 2e gives me the option to do that, do a little if that, do none of it.

I also love the lack of a subclass. I feel very open ended when I play a monk.

I see many people say they are weak. I don't know if that's true. They certainly can drop off in relative dpr as you gain levels. But they start out at a high point. Starting with flurry of blows is great. Stances offer both utility, damage, and flavor. Though I am a bit sad with how late master of many styles is. As it was my favorite 1e monk. I hope they release an archetype that does that earlier someday.

When I see a monk it encapsulates some of my favorite mechanical strengths as well.

1- high action economy efficiency. Flurry of blows alone is great for this. No action to set up like hunt prey. No hoops to jump through. Conditions to be met.

2- fast. Being one of if not the fastest class in the game is s ton of fun and gives you great ability to reposition or just be safe.

3- strong defense. Having some of the highest ac and best saves is great peace of mind. Along with them finally getting d10 hit die!

Things I feel they lack

1- monk is selfish. By that I mean is despite not having the highest damage. They don't have great group support either.

What is your thoughts on the monk class? I love it especially with free archetype given how action economy efficient it is. Makes it feel very flexible

I'm building a gunsword user for a upcoming outlaws campaign!

But I'm having some struggles.

At first I thought about doing a ranger, but they seem really focused on ... Well, ranged. And that's fine. But when I think of focusing on ranged attacks. Why would I not just pick a normal old gun and stick a weapon attachment onto it?

So I want to focus on melee with the ranged portion as a more fallback/switch hitter playstyle.

So 18 strength and 16 dexterity.

Ranger still has strong potential damage between precision, gravity.

But fighter is more accurate and I'm a fan of not missing (more than critting)

We will be using free archetype.

As for the combination weapon benefit itself. I have a question.

It says that if you strike with melee you can without spending an action, switch to range and attack. Why would anyone do this? I can't fathom a reason. First thought was does it work with exacting strike on fighter. But still don't understand a reason for it

Still disclosure. Overall, I do not like them.

I could talk about the reload mechanic and how it hampers my favorite aspect of the game (improving action economy) so I'm using feats to, situationally, reach baseline action economy. I can't help but feel by picking up a gun, I'm being penalized.

I could talk about the underwhelming die size.

But in reality I think those are measures taken to address the strength of their crits. Wich I also don't like. I don't like the pick axes fighter with true strikes. I don't like all my power locked behind having to critically hit.

I'd gladly sacrifice such critical traits in exchange for an increased damage die.

This said, I've built a few characters that I enjoy having a gun with. Mainly utilizing the gunsword on a champion or ranger.

At yes I'm biased. But I still want to know how you feel about them. See if maybe a new perspective can be gained.

So, it's been a while since I was last active. Been busy with life and being the GM for my groups first 2e campaign. Starting with plaguestone and quickly home brewing a full, to level 20 story. They are hallways through.

During all this, whenever a new class is released, I like to try to build characters I could see myself enjoying.

Gunslinger has been difficult. This is because I tend to favor efficiency. Monk is one of my favorite classes for this reason. Highly flexible, with many "do more" action economy hacks.

Gunslinger felt like the opposite, a "do one thing" kind of class whose action economy hacks wasn't so much "do more" as it is "try to not be clunky"

Suffice to say I still don't like reloading as a mechanic, nor do I like the focus on critical fishing. It's why I don't take pick axes on my fighters. I enjoy hitting more, but I don't enjoy hitting for weak amounts, punctuated by moments of strong hits dictated largely by luck.

But this isn't about my personal feelings on the gunslinger exactly, many love the class and I'm quite passed wanting to change it.

I also love combination weapons. Mechanically? They are interesting but just ok. Rather I love the flavor. You'd think I'd of been a final fantasy nerd. But I wasn't there was my brother.

Then you have the champion, on paper I like them a lot. Defensive, good group support, reactions are great as well. But most I created felt a bit dry.

Enter Flynt'n Sundare, dwarf, ex arms dealer worshipping a certain dwarven god. Utilizing the gunsword to dispense his paladin justice. Leveraging his crime experience with fireman's to effective efficiency.

Mechanically, this is a dwarven paladin champion with the gunslinger dedication as free archetype. Way of the vanguard.

Stats I went with 18 strength and 16 dexterity. Took voluntary flaw to achieve this. This will let my ranged attacks have some consistency and give me options for when I won't be in heavy armor.

This is a free archetype built, my group runs this variant rule by default.

Important feats

Unburdened iron- I will be focusing on heavy armor as much as possible despite the higher Dex. Plus being a dwarf, this seems like a pretty obvious pick.

Ranged reprisal- I see nothing in the rules that says a gunsword cannot also have a reinforced stock attached, so when I want to shoot something I can still defend myself without wasting an action and it pairs well with this ability. Probably my favorite champion feat that I always struggled to utilize.

Defensive armaments- I might not have a shield but I do have a gun. This seems to play off of living fortification vanguard feature giving me +2 to ac at beginning of combat.

Knock sense- I'll be honest, this is mostly for flavor and I cannot help it. It fits his gruff but helpful persona I imagine.

Clear a path- seems a great feat for a champion holding a combination weapon and having high athletics

Stab and blast- a very high DPA option for a champion. In fact I also went blade ally to get free flaming rune as well as smite evil, blade of justice and telluric power to get some situational but flavorful damage boosts.

Forge blessed shot - an interesting and very fitting feat for this character that shows up just in time to help balance out his slightly lagging ranged to hit. Though I guess I could sacrifice my strength score for a dexterity apex item.

Celestial form- almost exclusively for flight and why I bother getting to master in acrobatics instead of keeping it at trained.

Beyond that many of the gunslinger feats revolve around reload actions, and I also took cover fire.

I did spend every ASI boosting charisma for diplomacy (18 by level 20) as well as item bonuses prioritizing the stat. But I could see myself going wisdom instead depending on party composition.

Oh and a large bore modification for a static +2 to damage with my ranged attack

He is tanky, with high ac, ability to start every combat with +2 to ac , toughness+mountains stoutness. Divine grace, etc. Though he is not the tankiest (no shield block for one)

He can do good damage, but it's not the highest, nor was he really meant to be.

A competent and flavourful defensive switch hitter with decent group support.

If you read this entire thing, I'm impressed, don't know why I make this stuff so long. Guess I just get excited over my concepts. But if you made it this far, feel free to tell me if I've messed up a ruling somewhere