
Martialmasters |
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This seems to be a incredibly versatile and expressive class rewarding creativity.
So it's unfortunate that some runes seem a little boring and some a little weak. I don't have much to offer on the boring side, I'm no game developer.
Rune of fire is incredibly niche on its initial effect to the point where 90 percent of the time you only casting it for it's invocation.
Why not persistent fire, weakness to fire, you can always use a different rune when you run into something with resistance.
Why make impact hurt you if your unarmed? There is so little unarmed support in this play test that this just feels mean spirited.
Thunder, why is the scaling on the non invocation+1? Make it 1d4 please.
I think if you were to change invoking to once per round (to limit the absurd potential burst while keeping from over weakening the class) you could change preservation to something a little more frequent?
Rune of intensity is odd given the removal of ability mod to cantrips. At higher levels it's hard to justify an entire action for a single source is 6-7 damage.
Homecoming is a rare example of arguably too much power. Given it has no range limit or even dimension. You could use it to yoink a friendly or if maze.
Rune of gravity is one of those rare ones where majority of the time you just don't want to invoke.
A lot of runes I feel their passive effect do not line up with their invocation. I want hard decisions. Which means passive effects need to be good as well as invocation.
Then we just need some more runes, with just a runesmith can quickly get most if not all the runes. I know it's a play test but it's still worth mentioning.
I can tell you majority of the time as a off kas martial, I'm going to be spending my first 3 of my 4 known runes on whetstone, fire and thunder.
I'd also like some better feat support. Make engraving strike simply add a strike to your trace. So long as you have the ability to hit the opponent. That means two action ranged strikes with tracing and one action melee tracing.
Currently while ranged gets there, it definitely takes a bit to kick in. Feels clunky.

Justnobodyfqwl |
I agree that I feel like the runes tend to be very specific, and not always fun. They're mostly combat abilities that you can exchange for burst damage.
I was expecting a lot more of an interesting push and pull between runes that are noncombat, and runes that are meant for combat. I think the light one is a GREAT example- usually, you want it on an ally for utility. However, it's also sometimes good to trace on an enemy- and it's ALWAYS good to invoke on an enemy!
It feels like runes have very, very limited utility out of combat, which is kinda boring.
For instance, maybe a rune that helps with charisma skills, but you invoke it to make the target distracted/dazzled/fascinated/agog/agape/etc.

Xenocrat |
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I think the light one is a GREAT example- usually, you want it on an ally for utility. However, it's also sometimes good to trace on an enemy- and it's ALWAYS good to invoke on an enemy!
Every party member within 40' of the enemy: "It's not good to invoke, it's not good to invoke!!!"

Justnobodyfqwl |
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Justnobodyfqwl wrote:Every party member within 40' of the enemy: "It's not good to invoke, it's not good to invoke!!!"I think the light one is a GREAT example- usually, you want it on an ally for utility. However, it's also sometimes good to trace on an enemy- and it's ALWAYS good to invoke on an enemy!
Me putting on my totally radical protective sunglasses and full coverage ear protection: WHAT WAS THAT? INVOKE THE RUNE? OK!

Alchemic_Genius |
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I really wished paizo would start caring about giving us more utility options in the playtest phase. It's really hard to give data about how fun a class is when all we're given is a basic suite of combat abilities which are mostly damage focused.
Like, the rune of binding is incredibly cool; but it's also, like, level 17. I also really like the rune of sorrow. Make no mistake, I think the blasty Runes are fun and important too; but I'm not a fan that blasting is one of the few things a low level runesmith can do

Eldritch Yodel |

If you mean tune-up as in more runes then clearly they skipped giving us enough to playtest properly.
The lack of options really is a big problem. With the fact that there's absolutely no reason to take the Lexicon feat unless you also already have the Grimoire feat, it leads to a weird situation that people who do take them have access to almost every single rune in the playtest (especially considering the corrupting rune is... not something which is super usable in most games). Limited choices are expected, but this is more close to "next to none"

Justnobodyfqwl |
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I really wished paizo would start caring about giving us more utility options in the playtest phase. It's really hard to give data about how fun a class is when all we're given is a basic suite of combat abilities which are mostly damage focused.
Like, the rune of binding is incredibly cool; but it's also, like, level 17. I also really like the rune of sorrow. Make no mistake, I think the blasty Runes are fun and important too; but I'm not a fan that blasting is one of the few things a low level runesmith can do
I can understand that Paizo probably feels as if they understand out-of-combat balancing more than combat balancing, and thus want to emphasize combat abilities in playtests
However, I think the non-combat abilities of a class are core to it working! They make up a huge part of what makes a class distinct and interesting, and presenting a class without them will always be less satisfying
Also, I think the difference between Player Core Pathfinder 2e Skill Feats and Starfinder 2e Playtest's Skill Feats proves that they're willing to make skill feats much less niche and much more inviting to actually pick. Out-of-combat abilities seem more important than ever to Paizo, and I wanna playtest that!

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Playtests should have some options that are purely promotional cool things to get folks excited for the final format. But they aren't necessarily there to be "playtested" but to paint an overall story about what the final class could look like.
I'm surprised there aren't runes that straight up are copy or advance common runes (e.g., getting a pre-remaster blade ally bonus rune on your weapon or maybe armour). Imagine being able to trace that to get any of the skill boosting utility runes you'd never add to your normal weapons and Armour.
When I think about some of the cool options from other classes I think of the mirror implement short distance teleport, a stealth rune to hide you and your party, the ability to trace runes that only certain people can see for secret communications, some movements options like a rocket jump to get short distance pseudo fly, a super speedy rune that could give you a free or no action 60ft dash to close distance, an alarm rune for ensuring you are attacked in the night, all the power word x spells, etc.
Then what new things could you do with the power of the written word? I think it'd be cool to summon little rune monsters that out of combat could be unseen servants or in combat could personify the runes intention (you animate the 'protect rune' and it jumps to take hits and tank, you animate the 'revenge rune' and it will always attack the creature who last attacked an ally, you animate the help rune and it will aid another). That opens up so many flavourful options for a poorly worded 1 word program that does something you want but never in the most optimal way unless you highly coordinate with your team. It's like true naming a quality/concept vs. A creature.
I think a thread on how the runes are boring should throw out more cool ideas for effects you'd want to see for the design team to implement and balance around.

Justnobodyfqwl |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Playtests should have some options that are purely promotional cool things to get folks excited for the final format. But they aren't necessarily there to be "playtested" but to paint an overall story about what the final class could look like.
I'm surprised there aren't runes that straight up are copy or advance common runes (e.g., getting a pre-remaster blade ally bonus rune on your weapon or maybe armour). Imagine being able to trace that to get any of the skill boosting utility runes you'd never add to your normal weapons and Armour.
When I think about some of the cool options from other classes I think of the mirror implement short distance teleport, a stealth rune to hide you and your party, the ability to trace runes that only certain people can see for secret communications, some movements options like a rocket jump to get short distance pseudo fly, a super speedy rune that could give you a free or no action 60ft dash to close distance, an alarm rune for ensuring you are attacked in the night, all the power word x spells, etc.
Then what new things could you do with the power of the written word? I think it'd be cool to summon little rune monsters that out of combat could be unseen servants or in combat could personify the runes intention (you animate the 'protect rune' and it jumps to take hits and tank, you animate the 'revenge rune' and it will always attack the creature who last attacked an ally, you animate the help rune and it will aid another). That opens up so many flavourful options for a poorly worded 1 word program that does something you want but never in the most optimal way unless you highly coordinate with your team. It's like true naming a quality/concept vs. A creature.
I think a thread on how the runes are boring should throw out more cool ideas for effects you'd want to see for the design team to implement and balance around.
Oh my gosh, I 100% love all of these ideas! I couldn't agree more, it feels like these are really obvious and cool abilities that interact with adventuring in fun ways- that AREN'T only about combat.
I feel like giving temporary access to conditional runes is really smart, too- really gives players a chance to try-before-you-buy.
I would especially love runes that lean into the idea that theyre engraved onto objects. This feat gives you a rune that lets you teleport anything its engraved on to your hand. This Pinocchio feat gives you a rune that turns any 1 bulk item its engraved on into an unseen servant.
Or maybe runes that really play into the idea of language. You can trace a rune on your tongue that translates all of your speech to anyone listening to the universal ancient language, or do the same on your ears. Start a plot hook where a podunk farmer accidentally created a cattle brand that exactly recreates the Rune Of Speech- and now the cows are speaking up and speaking out in revolt.

JiCi |

I think a thread on how the runes are boring should throw out more cool ideas for effects you'd want to see for the design team to implement and balance around.
That one's easy.
- Rune for Cold damage- Rune for Acid damage
- Rune for Poison damage
- Rune for Sonic damage
- Rune for Mental damage
- Rune for Void damage
- Rune for Spirit damage
- Rune for Piercing damage
- Rune for Bludgeoning damage

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Red Griffyn wrote:I think a thread on how the runes are boring should throw out more cool ideas for effects you'd want to see for the design team to implement and balance around.That one's easy.
- Rune for Cold damage
- Rune for Acid damage
- Rune for Poison damage
- Rune for Sonic damage
- Rune for Mental damage
- Rune for Void damage
- Rune for Spirit damage
- Rune for Piercing damage
- Rune for Bludgeoning damage
Lol...Well OP clearly wanted non-combat runes. But I think just copy pasta of the same old underlying damage rune with a minor flavour based difference (e.g., cold reduces speed) is the wrong way to go because you'll end up having multiple stacking runes, boosting the existing burst damage of the class. I'd much rather a elemental rune (fire/cold/acid/electric/sonic) and physical rune (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing) that gives versatility but doesn't eat up rune count. That provides a hard cap to damage rune stacking (since only two could stack) and prevents you feeling 'required' to spend all your runes on damage. It will take less page count to even add those flavour boosters based on damage type as well if desired. Everyone can spare 2 runes which opens up people to take a weird corner case rune or diacritic modifying rune.
Just pondering again, but think there could be a reasonable desire to specialize in one kind or damage or another. Maybe there could be a higher level feat to specialize a versatile rune like that for one damage type. Like a L8 feat that boosts the fire to add persistent fire damage, the cold status penalty to speed to require a check to move (similar to being on ice), sonic causing a creature to be unable to perform actions/spells that have the auditory trait, etc.
I think the other really cool thing that is missing is the scaling ability to improve the complexity of your runes. Its there in some of the later feats where you're causing effects based on the rune magic type in combination, but I mean more a later level feat or feature to add two diacritic runes to modify so those baseline runes can get increasingly more complicated. Maybe you could even let you double dip on the diacritic rune (increase the AOE radius on expansion, double the INT damage, etc.).
Or maybe runes that really play into the idea of language. You can trace a rune on your tongue that translates all of your speech to anyone listening to the universal ancient language, or do the same on your ears. Start a plot hook where a podunk farmer accidentally created a cattle brand that exactly recreates the Rune Of Speech- and now the cows are speaking up and speaking out in revolt.
I love this. Maybe it could provide a passive bonus to one CHA skill of your choice as its scaling effect (great for your party face) and maybe you could invoke it to give a reroll on a failed CHA check? That would be a really fun utility rune that could also be used in combat for demoralize/bon mot.
Other Utility Rune Ideas:
- Immovable Rod Rune that adds a huge mass to and object.
- Levitation Rune that decreases your mass and lets you hover.
- Binding rune that binds two objects (or later PCs?) to each other and requires a DC to escape. Sort of like a sovereign glue/everlasting adhesive.
- Repulsion runes that prevent two objects (or later PCs?) form approaching each other without a save.
- Elemental Control Rune(s) similar to the kineticist kinesis
- Runes you can place in space and walk/climb like a versatile floating disk spell. This could enable a higher level version where you can 'create' larger structures like a bridge or w/e.
- Runes to transmute things from one thing to another (either temporarily or permanently if reapplied a lot). Think of Brandon Sanderson's emperor's soul type imprints (things that coax a crappy thing to be better by rewriting its 'history'). Imagine if you could transmute your possessions into any item of the same item (weapon, handheld, alchemical bomb, etc.) type after ~7 days of imprinting that is of a level equal to or lower than the item's level. Then you add in a really cool 1-4 scaling items that are up to your PC level but those require daily reapplies (so you can't up cycle and break the economy). That would be a really cool versatile option opener AND it would have some really cool narrative options to describing how exactly you changed a part of the item history (was it they were taken care of better, were they crafted with higher skill from a master crafstman, was there a locksmith of your dungeon cell who predominantly used a specifically 'worse' kind of lock making it easier to escape the dungeon, etc.). For items of the item level it could be as simple as 7 days to change a random key into an exact replica of the vault key you stole from the banker to improve your heist abilities. TONS of fun gameplay here. It also reinforces the INT/Crafting angle of the runesmith.
- LOTR style runic magic doors (only opens on certain days, in the moonlight, or with passphrases, etc.)

JiCi |

JiCi wrote:Lol...Well OP clearly wanted non-combat runes. But I think just copy pasta of the same old underlying damage rune with a minor flavour based difference (e.g., cold reduces speed) is the wrong way to go because you'll end up having multiple stacking runes, boosting the existing burst damage of the class. I'd much rather a elemental rune (fire/cold/acid/electric/sonic) and physical rune (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing) that gives versatility but doesn't eat up rune count. That provides a hard cap to damage rune stacking (since only two could stack) and prevents you feeling 'required' to spend all your runes on damage. It will take less page count to even add those flavour boosters based on damage type as well if desired. Everyone can spare 2 runes which opens up people to take a weird corner case rune or diacritic modifying rune.Red Griffyn wrote:I think a thread on how the runes are boring should throw out more cool ideas for effects you'd want to see for the design team to implement and balance around.That one's easy.
- Rune for Cold damage
- Rune for Acid damage
- Rune for Poison damage
- Rune for Sonic damage
- Rune for Mental damage
- Rune for Void damage
- Rune for Spirit damage
- Rune for Piercing damage
- Rune for Bludgeoning damage
Well in this case, how about this?
- ARCANE rune of power (fire, cold, acid, electricity, poison)- DIVINE rune of power (spirit, vitality, void)
- PRIMAL rune of power (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing)
- OCCULT rune of power (mental, sonic)

Martialmasters |

Red Griffyn wrote:JiCi wrote:Lol...Well OP clearly wanted non-combat runes. But I think just copy pasta of the same old underlying damage rune with a minor flavour based difference (e.g., cold reduces speed) is the wrong way to go because you'll end up having multiple stacking runes, boosting the existing burst damage of the class. I'd much rather a elemental rune (fire/cold/acid/electric/sonic) and physical rune (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing) that gives versatility but doesn't eat up rune count. That provides a hard cap to damage rune stacking (since only two could stack) and prevents you feeling 'required' to spend all your runes on damage. It will take less page count to even add those flavour boosters based on damage type as well if desired. Everyone can spare 2 runes which opens up people to take a weird corner case rune or diacritic modifying rune.Red Griffyn wrote:I think a thread on how the runes are boring should throw out more cool ideas for effects you'd want to see for the design team to implement and balance around.That one's easy.
- Rune for Cold damage
- Rune for Acid damage
- Rune for Poison damage
- Rune for Sonic damage
- Rune for Mental damage
- Rune for Void damage
- Rune for Spirit damage
- Rune for Piercing damage
- Rune for Bludgeoning damageWell in this case, how about this?
- ARCANE rune of power (fire, cold, acid, electricity, poison)
- DIVINE rune of power (spirit, vitality, void)
- PRIMAL rune of power (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing)
- OCCULT rune of power (mental, sonic)
Currently, each rune has a highly specific and unique trace effect
What you suggest is certainly more modular but I fear the unique trace effects might get lost.
Is every arcane rune going to become just resistance lower?

JiCi |
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Currently, each rune has a highly specific and unique trace effect
What you suggest is certainly more modular but I fear the unique trace effects might get lost.
Is every arcane rune going to become just resistance lower?
I'm gonna throw something... for Arcane runes, to start with...
- Tracing "Atryl" reduces the bearer's resistance by an ammount, according to the selected damage type.
- Invoking "Atryl" detonates the rune, dealing damage. HOWEVER, the dazzling condition changes according to the type... unless you can find me when a Cold effect dazzles :p
- Tracing "Ranshu", but as a DIACRITIC rune, have the bearer take the equivalent of persistant damage, according to the selected type again. Logically, if "Atryl" reduces your resistance, "Ranshu" should make it more evident.
I get the feeling that a runsmith could theoratically Trace a 3-rune phrase, as 3 separate actions though, with one main rune and 2 diacritic ones.
Basically, one rune for damage type and another rune to apply conditions and effects, to a maximum a 3-rune phrase.

RobinHart |

An idea to add to the list - a rune of illusion applied to creatures that for the passive gives a stealth bonus, but when invoked allows a short duration of a blurring or invisibility effect (say, until end of the runesmith's next turn)?
Another rune that applies to objects that causes the terrain within ten feet of it to be difficult terrain, to everyone, even flying creatures who happen to pass through the air within ten feet of it. Maybe a wind rune that opposes movement through it. And then the invoke effect could be a knock-back to anyone in the difficult terrain that sends them ten feet in a direction of the Runesmith's choice on a failed fortitude save? This one having the added perk that it doesn't apply to a creature or armor, so the objects could be left at chokepoints to slow down an enemy advance through it. Or they could be applied to arrows and shot at spaces with enemies nearby to give them instant difficult terrain to deal with. Don't make the holder immune to the effect, and shooting the arrow into an enemy would be "movement halved until you take an action to yank the arrow out and walk away from it or toss it far enough away."
And... maybe a rune for drunkenness. Apply and passive clumsy 1, invoke for a reflex or will save (with the -1 from clumsy still) vs going prone?
Rune of Earth that gives a +2 bonus to saves and checks against being moved, tripped, grappled, or anything like that. On invoking, you can create a 15' tall, 30' long wall of stone torn out of the ground for instant cover.

Justnobodyfqwl |
An idea to add to the list - a rune of illusion applied to creatures that for the passive gives a stealth bonus, but when invoked allows a short duration of a blurring or invisibility effect (say, until end of the runesmith's next turn)?
There's a creature in the Starfinder 2e playtest that plays in the novel space of applying concealed to enemies, which makes it harder to target and help out that teammate. I think that would be fun- a rune you can etch on a teammate to give them concealment, or trace on an enemy to make them harder to help.

RobinHart |
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Rune of conflict - passively prevents creature with the rune on it from being able to benefit from ally-only targeting effects, or provide such to allies. Does not flank, can't use an action to aid and give a bonus to someone else's checks... But gains a +1 to attacks and AC if they have no allies within 15 feet of them.
On invoking, creature makes a single strike against a creature in melee reach to them - if they fail a will save, the runesmith picks the target.
This one would be an interesting mix of buff and debuff that encourages the target to move away from their allies for a buff... but traced on an enemy, the effects end shortly with them out of position. If they stay close to allies to avoid being caught easily out where they could be ganged up on, you can force them to slap an ally. Or if you invoke the same turn you place it, save vs hitting an ally and causing some confusion and possible disruption of teamwork, especially with dumber enemies that can't easily understand that it was forced (beasts, low wisdom humanoids, creatures without any training in any magic tradition...)

JiCi |

Could we settle for one rune per Spell Trait?
There are like 50 traits, going by the Archives, so how about making a rune for each?
Furthermore, how about giving them all...
1) a tracing effect
2) an invokation
3) a prefixe diacritic attachment
4) and a suffixe diacritic attachment ?
Finally, when tracing, the Runesmith should be limited to how many runes they can trace per round.

JiCi |

They are in fact currently limited by the number they trace per round.
Maximum of 4 I believe with tracing trance which means no invoke that round.
Yes... because of "action economy", not because of "there's no way you can properly trace more than 3 runes per round without screwing up".

Martialmasters |

Martialmasters wrote:Yes... because of "action economy", not because of "there's no way you can properly trace more than 3 runes per round without screwing up".They are in fact currently limited by the number they trace per round.
Maximum of 4 I believe with tracing trance which means no invoke that round.
Mechanically it amounts to the same thing unless they print more free actions or you want less than the maximum 4 they can do themselves with feat support and/or positioning.

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Alchemic_Genius wrote:I really wished paizo would start caring about giving us more utility options in the playtest phase. It's really hard to give data about how fun a class is when all we're given is a basic suite of combat abilities which are mostly damage focused.
Like, the rune of binding is incredibly cool; but it's also, like, level 17. I also really like the rune of sorrow. Make no mistake, I think the blasty Runes are fun and important too; but I'm not a fan that blasting is one of the few things a low level runesmith can do
I can understand that Paizo probably feels as if they understand out-of-combat balancing more than combat balancing, and thus want to emphasize combat abilities in playtests
However, I think the non-combat abilities of a class are core to it working! They make up a huge part of what makes a class distinct and interesting, and presenting a class without them will always be less satisfying
Also, I think the difference between Player Core Pathfinder 2e Skill Feats and Starfinder 2e Playtest's Skill Feats proves that they're willing to make skill feats much less niche and much more inviting to actually pick. Out-of-combat abilities seem more important than ever to Paizo, and I wanna playtest that!
They may fully feel they understand how to balance utility abilities, but not including any ignores the opportunity cost of acquiring those abilities. So even if the Runesmith has good and interesting damage options in the playtest, that doesn't necessarily mean that including a bunch of utility options in the final release will be satisfying.
Like, the playtest Commander had a tactic to grant a climb speed; pretty good utility. However, because it competes with combat tactics, most people who posted on the forums reported not taking it. That kind of information is still valuable.

AnimatedPaper |

I'm just curious why they didn't just make a bunch of invocation and a few Diacritic options, and say Runesmiths have the ability to trace and etch runes they know how to create, and when they do the runes gain an invocation ability of their choice. Invokes could have traditions assigned to them, which might bring into the game interesting choices, like do you get more out of putting a Divine Invoke on that ghost touch rune, or Arcane?
Edit: I guess to put this another way, get rid of the base feats and add only Diacritic runes, which could be applied to the normal runes we already have in game.
Page space, if they're only printing the Invoke and not the passive, it seems like they could add more into a small footprint, which would leave room for them to add (or remaster) more types of runes besides armor and weapons.
I understand the desire to have a new set of rules and items to play with, but I feel the class might be better off if they are able to get more functionality out of the runes we already have in game, rather than have an entirely new subsystem which may never see an update.

RobinHart |

I feel like they could have gone a completely different path with the runes, you know? The idea of "passive effect until active is triggered" is a fairly neat one, but runes are all about language and magic intersecting.
Like... if you had something like this:
"Rune of Resistance - when paired with a rune related to a damage type, grants resistance X to that type."
And "Rune of lingering - when paired with a rune related to a damage type, causes persistent damage of that type."
Maybe "Rune of Radiating - causes any paired runes to gain a 15' area of impact around them."
Something where, by combining "Radiate, Linger, Fire" you could create a sea of burning flames 15' in radius around an object or creature that you applied a rune to, where anything entering the area takes fire damage and instantly has to save against catching fire. Leave out radiate, and it only impacts the one with the rune (and anything that touches it since, on fire.) Leave out linger, and it just does a quick burst of fire damage.
Want to avoid damage stacking bursts? Sure, make it so that if you pair two different damage types, the damage counts as both types without doing more damage, or combines into new effect that still doesn't change the amount of damage. Maybe create steam from fire and water/ice runes to blind / conceal, for instance.
...Yes I'm aware the idea is very close to the Words of Power magic system in pathfinder 1e, along with the Elemental Commixture feat from the same. That just means they'd have a nice starting point to work from, just translating some of that into runes and 2e numbers.

AnimatedPaper |

I think the reason is narrative.
The invocation effect is supposed to be intrinsically tied to the rune.
You use a manipulation action to trace it, and a verbal action to say it invoking the effect.
So getting to choose your invocation doesn't make sense.
It still would be intrinsically tied to a rune, just the diacritic rune instead of the base rune.
But, sure. I don’t really buy that explanation, but I’ll also not argue it.
Too bad. I had hopes for this class, but reading the rune list killed any interest I had in it.

Martialmasters |

Martialmasters wrote:I think the reason is narrative.
The invocation effect is supposed to be intrinsically tied to the rune.
You use a manipulation action to trace it, and a verbal action to say it invoking the effect.
So getting to choose your invocation doesn't make sense.
It still would be intrinsically tied to a rune, just the diacritic rune instead of the base rune.
But, sure. I don’t really buy that explanation, but I’ll also not argue it.
Too bad. I had hopes for this class, but reading the rune list killed any interest I had in it.
I mean it's right there in the definition of the words and the explanation of the class
The fire rune you trace, making the things resistant to fire, less resistant. You then invoke it by saying the runes true name to make the rune do fire damage.
Diacritic is essentially modifying a word, which is exactly what it does. You don't tie a base meaning of language to the modification.

JiCi |

JiCi wrote:Mechanically it amounts to the same thing unless they print more free actions or you want less than the maximum 4 they can do themselves with feat support and/or positioning.Martialmasters wrote:Yes... because of "action economy", not because of "there's no way you can properly trace more than 3 runes per round without screwing up".They are in fact currently limited by the number they trace per round.
Maximum of 4 I believe with tracing trance which means no invoke that round.
What I mean is that it's currently possible to trace 1 rune/action if you're able to get more than 3 actions/round.
What should be done is to impose a limit on how many runes you can trace per round, or else you must roll a flat check to avoid messing up.

JiCi |
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So you desire less than 3 possible per round?
What about action compression feats like engraving strike, fortifying knock, runic reprisal, etc.
Do you want a cap of 2? 1?
Really depends on where they bring the class... Engraving Strike is 1 action to strike and 1 action to trace, with your 3rd action be... whatever you want, such as invoking it right away.
Tracing more than 3 runes per round on a target at melee range... shouldn't be that easy, especially if you can trace 1 main rune with 2 diacritic runes, like I suggested.
Since traced runes last until these are invoked, there's no worry about wasting them. You could hogtie a target and paint the entire dictionary on them no problem.
In combat however, yeah... that would prove more difficult ^^;
There should be a reasonable limit to how many runes you can trace in combat due to how shaky your "canvas" can be :p

exequiel759 |

The vaccum we are in doesn't help...One round doesn't help when the two classes are THIS complex honestly.
Its also very likely that two rounds of playtest would avoid stuff like the kineticist not working with most of the printed content of the system, though at the same time it would also likely delay the time between the playtest and book release, which likely Paizo doesn't like or want since classes are their main source of income.

Hyyudu |
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A bit of my thoughts about runes presented in playtest RAW.
Atryl, Rune of Fire - 1 of 3 "Combat Runesinger Starter Pack" runes. If enemy isn't fire resistant - trace & invoke. If it is - etch on yourself/ally, transpose to enemy, then trace & invoke.
Esvadir, Rune of Whetstones - 2 of 3 "Combat Runesinger Starter Pack". If for any reason you have free slots for etching, this is obvious choice. Etch it to dagger, sickle, needle, whatever is sharp, and give it to the most melee-oriented ally. Doesn't matter if he never uses it - you will use it!
Holtrik, Rune of Dwarven Ramparts - must have if you are a shield-bearer. +1 to AC is not something you just can pass by. Also great for allies. And yes, if you use it only on your shield, then invocation is useless. Well, I see only exception at now: "I'm short of actions, but I have to raise my shield, but I'm invoking anyway, so I'll invoke Holtrik as well, because it's shield-or-die case".
Marssyl, Rune of Impact - if your GM likes to make battles vs multiple low-hp enemies AND you have an ally with bludgeoning weapon AND it's not an unarmed monk (because unarmed strike isn't considered a melee weapon, so the monk shall get splash damage from his own attacks) - then it's worth your attention for etching. Invocation - nice, powerful, situational.
Oljinex, Rune of Cowards’ Bane - here's a vital question: does these illusionary walls move along with rune-bearer when she moves? As for me, main point of using (invoking) this rune is trap enemies within 15ft square with enemy shield-bearer in the middle (and for him there is no walls around). Consult with your GM before using this!
Pluuna, Rune of Illumination - one word (okay, two): TOO MUCH. Passive effect is similar to Light cantrip (and I don't want to spend a precious rune slot for that), and invocation covers everyone - allies, enemies, you (unless you have Distant Invocation, which is level 12). Well, if you're a party trickster and chaos generator, give it a try.
Ranshu, Rune of Thunder - the last of "Combat Runesinger Starter Pack". I still want to know how one can dispose of etched rune, for you can etch it on yourself and walk constantly (or just put it on lightning resistant ally), and then transpose your etching to enemy. No more sleep for you, guy! Also, very solid damage output (and enemies with lightning resistance are much more seldom then with fire).
Sun-, Diacritic Rune of Preservation. Looks great, but right now I don't see too much ways it can make your life better in terms of action economy. If you can trace Sun, you also can trace the other rune, so it's just "I spend my action now for not to spend it later". Well, maybe one combo I definitely see: Runic Tattoo with Atryl on you, Sun on this Atryl, then Words, Fly Free to a group of enemies and then double invocation. A ton of damage, but requires two feats. Maybe you can propose something even better.
Ur-, Diacritic Rune of Intensity. Guys, it's a trap! At 1st level it can make your Atryl, Esvadir or Ranshu deal 2d6+4 instead of 2d6 (I assume you maxed your main stat!), which makes it one and half better. But - no level progression, no increasing continual damage from Ranshu - it becames total crap at 3rd level already. Fine, you can take Shades of Meaning at 20th level (20th, Carl!), but at this point your damage will be 20d6, and these 6-7 additional damage is a raindrop in ocean. Seriously, I hope this rune will be reworked (at least level progression will be added).
Zohk, Rune of Homecoming - it's just a brilliant thing! Ability to teleport your allies at 1st level - that's too powerful thing to skip. Tactical abilities are limitless (you can send your ally to the forest etching Zohk at him, so he always will be aware of which direction he should take to return to the party, for example).
That's all for level 1 runes, rest are in the next post

Hyyudu |
En-, diacritic Rune of Expansion. Looks cool, works cool, no more words needed.
Feikris, Rune of Gravity. When etched, nice for party brawler, when invoked... when do you need to invoke it? Party brawler is 10ft away from all enemies and doesn't want to make Step to save it for extra attack?
By the way, combine this with Words Fly Free and look what happened :)
Ichelsu, Rune of Observation - whoa, that's bliss! Something that one can gain at 19th level as feat, you just get at 9 for 1 rune slot!
Inth-, Diacritic Rune of Corruption - first diacritic rune with level progression. Base effect is very situational (and heavily relies on what adversaries your GM throws at you), invocation effect is nice and tasty.
Jurroz, Rune of Dragon Fury - as someone on this forum said, it's very dramatic rune. Not that it gives you some uber benefits (but, hey, this is really useful!), but when you describe effect of triggered Jurroz to your party-mates - I suppose it will be awesome. "As this petty thief flees to backstreets, rune on my neck resembling roaring dragon head suddenly barks out "Freeze, you dirty little pilferer!". Mighty fire wings spans behind my shoulders, and I rush to him as an angel of righteous fury!"
Kojastri, Rune of Insulation - one of the best runes of this level, something your party tank will love you for. Energy resistance + analog of Energy Retort from 3.5 + bonus versus pesky grabbers - it definitely deserves your close attention.
Trolistri, Rune of Forlorn Sorrow - one of those runes you don't want to invoke due to benefits of just having it on you. Especially when you are chased by powerful melee attackers.
Aiuen, the Elf-gate Key - you can make a fortune with this thing, especially if you travelled a lot and placed a lot of your sigils all around the world! Or you may place your sigil onto a stone and throw it in the depths of ocean (hey, tarrasque, you have a lot of resistances, but can you live without air?). Or you may put the same stone into sturdy cage on your base and go like "Hey, this guy is tough and has a lot of cool items - let's put him in a cage and deal with these minions first!". Seriously, it's an unlimited power, bearing in mind that you don't have any restrictions for using it again and again!
Rovan, Seal of the Dead Vault - not so cool as previous, but do we have some other choice at 19th level? But don't think it's useless. Hey, -20 to speed (and -40 to flight speed) without any saves is something wants on it!