Grokk_Bloodfist's page

If you're open to third party supplements, look at the Time Warden or Time Thief by Genius Guides.

Otherwise I'd go with a Witch with the Time Patron or Diviner wizard with some careful spell selection, potentially reflavored to fit.

hmm...

Two hand fighter/barbarian + power attack + magical adamantine lucern hammer = pissed off party when they find their loot in tiny pieces.

QFT.

Can't you just murder the pirate queen instead?

Grokk_Bloodfist wrote:

So what stops someone giving themselves 1,000,000 HP and +20 to all saves at level 1 if nobody is reviewing the sheets?

Uh, a desire not to cheat?

If you're playing with people who would cheat at the game without GM oversight then you need to find a new group.

If you're playing a group where nobody is reviewing a sheet and QA over third party material and troublesome things like game balance are not an issue then I really don't see how you would get caught (unless you are super careless) but more importantly why anyone would care even if you were. You're practically cheating anyway under the above conditions.

The DM in this instance has established an impossible set of game criteria to really present a credible challenge. The rules of the game - including character creation - provide a basic framework in which to present the story and challenge the players. The premise as established in the OP is laughable.

I would suggest establishing a more clear framework in which to operate. Impose some real conditions. At the very least, auditable character sheets.

Grokk_Bloodfist wrote:

So what stops someone giving themselves 1,000,000 HP and +20 to all saves at level 1 if nobody is reviewing the sheets?

Something that obvious would be noticed?

How?

Bane has to be a half-orc btw.

Bane screams Mutagenic Mauler. Pretty sure the archtype was made for this.

You also retain Brawler's Cunning with that archtype, which allows you to tank INT for practical reasons. I realise it doesn't fit Bane but mechanically there is no disadvantage having an INT 7 if you really had to (not recommended). But if you find yourself tight on points it is an option.

You can also go dual path too which is probably a better option for your character:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic/mythic-feats/dual-path-mythic

Chyrone wrote:

Taking this in general,

Suppose you're designing a middle aged caster.

(ye classic wizard/ ye cackling witch-lady)

Would it be worth to dump something to compensate the physical penalties, or is it more of a
"Meh, who needs physical stuff, here comes the man/lady who's going to kick you youngsters' asses".?

Most people who do this do it to further min-max caster stats. In most network campaigns like PFS, you can make characters all the way to old age, but aging modifications aren't allowed. The pre-gen Ezren, for instance, is built this way.

Would you still do this under that restriction?

Didn't know that. For my concept absolutely I would (but I'm not the OP :).

Good point. I was thinking of playing an elderly half-elf Beast Bonded Witch at somepoint, just to justify switching bodies at level 10. Toughness might be a reasonable feat to pick at that point, as well as heavily investing favored class bonuses into HP.

So what stops someone giving themselves 1,000,000 HP and +20 to all saves at level 1 if nobody is reviewing the sheets?

You can be a divine caster of any alignment outside of Paladin or Druid - which have specific class restrictions. Your only real restrictions are a) if you want to have the character worship a specific diety at which point your character needs to be in one step of that alignment and b) the alignment of your party members.

So if you wanted to worship Lamashtu (what's not to love - favourite weapon is a falchion and access to cool domains and subdomains) then yes, she is a very solid choice.

There are other evil-ish entities (Groetus and some of the Old Ones) which are more chaotic neutral which may suit too. I think it comes down to your concept and vision for the character.

Also can you elaborate more on the group your are playing in? Number of characters? Alignment? Their general disposition?

I was playing a Rogue/Sorceror/Daggerspell Mage in 3.5 once and it was a homebrew campaign. My DM had a long list of opponents that myself and the party rogue couldn't use sneak attack on. To say nothing of magic resistant foes. We pointed out how ineffective we felt in a lot of fights. The DM thought it was in our head until we put them all on the whiteboard to showcase the problem. Sometimes the DM may not be aware. Although in this case your DM just sounds like a tool.

Have you asked him why he would do this knowing full well your character. I'd just buy a scroll of fireball to make make a point.

Got a sample build in mind?

Grokk_Bloodfist wrote:

There are a number of options within the Mythic rules. Mythic tier 10 is immortality and there are abilities to avoid the need to eat, sleep, cease aging. Combined with the ability to grant domain spells I'm not sure what else you need. You are a god in all but name.

Not really.. if you still have stats, you're as far from being a God a commoner is from being mythic.

Depends if you are wanting to continue playing that character as a god. When you no longer have stats I'm pretty sure you are done.

There are a number of options within the Mythic rules. Mythic tier 10 is immortality and there are abilities to avoid the need to eat, sleep, cease aging. Combined with the ability to grant domain spells I'm not sure what else you need. You are a god in all but name.

I think the question of whether the race works has been answered quite frankly. Anything else is a conversation for your DM.

LA mechanically doesn't exist in PF. Will your DM permit this? What are the other players using? Is this for PFS?

Ask your DM.

I've been eyeing off Shamans a lot and this archtype in particular. I do not like multiclassing in PF and not sold it improves this class or archtype tbh.

I was thinking Half-Orc, with either the Toothy or Sacred Tattoo or Shaman's Apprentice trait. Take the greataxe.

Heavy Armor Proficiency, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Vital Strike. You get enlarge person, bulls strength and go to town. That's before factoring in hexes, mysteries and bonus feats. It is exceptionally powerful.

You can also tank Dex, Int, Cha substantially and just focus on Str, Wis, Con (in that order) too. Very easy from an optimisation viewpoint.

Fighter 2, Paladin 2 get my vote - depending on build.

There are many threads on Vital Strike here and elsewhere online. I'm not going to do your research for you. The math is there if you want to find it.

Suffice to say there is sufficient evidence that it is useful and that it convinced me. I think the biggest issue with the feat is mostly a lack of creativity and commitment in maximising its utility compared to other feats which are brain dead easy to use.

Again, I'm not saying it is the be all end all, only that it is useful and I believe is wrong to write it off.

In Forgotten Realms some liches had figured out how to create multiple phylacetries. Larloch had over 30 I think.

You make some valid points. You are then trading offense for better defence, which, is not necessarily what we are talking about here.

I can see the advantage of a Dex over Strength based build. I'm certainly not dissing it. I just believe the primary reason for choosing one over the other is purely for concept. There's not a clear winner here in my opinion. Dex is *probably* better when you factor in saving throws and AC but that's not the way I'd choose to play a magus :)

Majority vote to take the win. Pretty simple. RPGs are about catering to the lowest common denominator. It's a group activity ultimately.

High wisdom + High Intelligence...might I just suggest a Shaman with the Lore spirit?

She will be able to use arcane enlightenment, where she gets arcane spells equal to her intelligence modifiers + she uses wisdom for her other spells.

Skipped this one. But yes.

I would get the Druid to reroll as a Shaman. Pick the class features that let them cast arcane spells as divine spells and give them the higher INT (forget the name). It will reflect the bookworm character aspect. It allows them to discard shapeshifting and get hexes in exchange. As a hybrid class it gets elements of the druid class that suit your needs far, far better IMHO.

We recently instituted a rule that we don't allow PCs of a different axis. In other words, all players must be all Good, all Neutral, or all Evil. We find that anything else creates disharmony. The rule seems to have worked well. Although in one campaign I plan on forcing an alignment shift on one player based on his actions to date - which will bring him into alignment with the rest of the party.

The party mix - to me - sounds too ludicrous. What is it with evil clerics wanting to play with paladins? It seems to be a common theme in so many threads on this forum. So your cleric is the weakest link. Tell him his character is not compatible with the other characters and to reroll. Players need to understand roleplaying is a group event not a solo sport. They need to go play a video game if they want that level of catharsis.

I find it interesting that some people consider Vital Strike a one shot use but not Intensified Shocking Grasps.

I can Vital Strike every round at my highest BAB, all day every day. Can't say the same for Shocking Grasp.

I really don't care to get into the math as to which is more effectively. I am pretty confident I can prove it does more damage than Power Attack or more than just about any other feat you care to name.

At the end of the day the choice whether to go a Strength based vs Dex base Magus is largely one of style.

Grokk_Bloodfist wrote:

I like Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword + Vital Strike with this character. I wouldn't advocate VS builds but I think there's some solid action economy and bonuses with Enlarge Person that makes it viable. Along with Intensified (magical lineage) shocking grasps.

Can't combine Vital Strike with Spell Combat, so the action economy is actually not very good by Magus standards.

No, but it does combine with Spell Recall and potentially Spellstrike (depending the casting time of the spell). Vital Strike is not a full round action, only an attack action (i.e standard action). So yes, it is useful. Also a significant portion of their spelllist is geared towards buffing them and increasing their size. Anything increasing their stats and size has a compound effect raising the viability of Vital Strike. You may not be using it every round as you would Power Attack but do not underestimate it's utility.

A lot of good ideas given here. I think making the economy principally closed makes for a lot of ingame issues. I'd open up several trade partners for game balance. Also introduce story hooks that opening up other lines of trade can be very lucrative (with existing trade sources threatening those who would seek to do just that to maintain the status quo).

I'd also suggest that those principally in control of the resources are incredibly wealthy. Those who do not are more or less slaves. It would be a very caste centric system most likely.

Brawler w/ mutagen archtype calling himself Bane.

I'm not saying I like brute force adventures but I find puzzles like this often pointless. Why are they there? Who put them there? To what end? Moreover, PCs can often become frustrated if they a) do not solve the problem and b) often find such activities equally pointless - both leading to general frustration.

Not saying "don't do it" but I am saying "be cautious and judicious" in their use.

I like Exotic Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword + Vital Strike with this character. I wouldn't advocate VS builds but I think there's some solid action economy and bonuses with Enlarge Person that makes it viable. Along with Intensified (magical lineage) shocking grasps.

Flight is great for battle shamans - being able to fly around without taking a round to buff is excellent. What you really need is Power Attack - it accounts for a large minority of your melee damage. I would definitely take the weapon proficiency at 1 and Power Attack at 3 if I were you.

I would keep Strength at 17 or 18 if at all possible. Combat Reflexes is nice to have, but with Battle Master you don't need it; in most campaigns it's pretty rare to have enemies trigger more than 2 attacks of opportunity per turn.

You may want to consider Heavy Armor Proficiency, too.

I agree with this feedback too for a melee based shaman. If you tank DEX then I would spend the feat on Heavy Armor Proficiency.

For a trait you might consider heirloom weapon (earthbreaker) to free up a feat. Maybe get Toughness or Power Attack early and then get Craft Magic Arms & Armor in its place.

I would go with Shoanti tattoo for best bang for buck. +1 to save vs fear and proficiency with earthbreakers, klars and bolas. Also with Ancestral arms/Heirloom Weapon or whatever it is, if is someone destroys or steals your weapon, you lose your proficiency.

On a side note there are ways to upgrade an heirloom weapon so that it can be masterworked and eventually enchanted. But that's a lot of frigging around in my opinion over a proficiency...

Grokk_Bloodfist wrote:

It is an ultimately selfish thing for a player to want to intrude on an existing campaign with defined characters and alignments with something that completely and utterly - by RAW or RAI - does not fit.

GMs need to be much more strict on stamping out people with these attitudes and really ask them what it is they hope to get out of playing in an *group* game. I think video games are a better outlet for someone looking for that level of individual catharsis.

There are GMs who get their jollies setting up situations like this.

If that was the case here, there would be no need for this thread.

It is an ultimately selfish thing for a player to want to intrude on an existing campaign with defined characters and alignments with something that completely and utterly - by RAW or RAI - does not fit.

GMs need to be much more strict on stamping out people with these attitudes and really ask them what it is they hope to get out of playing in an *group* game. I think video games are a better outlet for someone looking for that level of individual catharsis.

Grokk_Bloodfist wrote:

However the fact is that because railroading is required is suggestive that an evil party cannot work without it..

I understand the point of view but I humbly submit that it can work without a railroad. As a module it's very hard and almost certainly needed; but a good group of players with a knack for story telling can do it. The effort involved is great and may not appeal to those who would set it up though.

I would counter that your players aren't playing true to their alignment then if treachery never a factor. They might be more quasi evil rather than real evil. :)

I've played in a number of evil campaigns in a number of RPGs now. In my experience (coming up to three decades of gaming now with a number of different groups) I'm going to say that in my experience, evil players will always screw each other over. It may not result in PC murder but it will happen over a long enough timeline. Oh and just because the players aren't aware they are being screwed doesn't mean it isn't happening either. ;)

YMMV however.

Pathfinder is nowhere near as overwhelming as Forgotten Realms.

I'll just leave this here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?296803-Pathfinder-mini-guide- Casting-spells-from-other-lists

Seriously, the "trade off" you mention is virtually laughable. If by trade of you mean, "must spend feats" or "cannot tank stats into negatives" then sure. If you mean, must make serious compromises in build or trade core class abilities then the answer is no.

Shamans can still wear armor, cast level 9 divine and arcane spells and throw around hexes and get a decent selection of melee weapons. Arcane Enlightment has no level restrictions whatsoever. So yeah, they now get access to Miracle, True Resurrection as well as Wish, Meteor Swarm and Time Stop. Infact, Mystic Theurge just became redundant now there is a level 20 class which offers up the primary incentive to take it up.

Dreamed Secrets is another wtf that allows just about any divine caster (Oracle or Cleric) with the right persuasion to get up to level 8 spells with minimal trade-off (Wisdom damage means little to a Dark Tapestry Oracle). Yes it is a bit more thematic and harder to justify but seriously, it's another feat that should be restricted by some GMs. Seriously, read the above link. The list goes on.

Witches get a reduced spell list. Some Sorceror blood lines and prestige classes (such as Razmirian priests) get *limited* access to other lists. Magaambyan Arcanist is one of the few exceptions to the above rule (which is a puzzlingly, head scratching wtf and very OP prestige class IMHO). And I prefer to not use the exception to judge a rule.

At the end of the day, it's up to each GM to make his own call. I know how I deal with this in my games. But I do find it annoying that after Paizo worked so hard to stamp out this undesirable practice into Pathfinder that I see it creeping it's way back in again with each new subsequent class and sourcebook. Just disappointing really.

I'd go straight Slayer these days tbh...

Grokk_Bloodfist wrote:

Saints don't exist as a template in Pathfinder....

More than likely his GM is running a 3.5/PF mashup or allowing 3.5 things on a case by case basis.

If he is playing in a 3.5/PF mashup, then really whats the concern with a Vow of Poverty Monk with the Saint template when clerics can run around with Divine Metamagic and nightsticks right out the gate...

Saints don't exist as a template in Pathfinder....

Why is it so many divine casters get access to arcane spells but not the other way around?

It looks like Paizo are following WotC's approach to making divine casters more appealing to play than arcane casters.

Yes there are corner cases where an arcane caster can get access to divine but there are nowhere near as many or as flexible as the former over the latter.

Slightly off topic - what are the options for witches?

It seems that your best defence is obsence debuffing however this is very select (single target) and less effective in groups. They also have a reduced spell list compared to Sorceror/Wizard.

You need a pretty strong premise to tie an evil party together. As Dragonlance points out, evil feeds on itself. Way of the Wicked addresses this rather well, albeit in a somewhat railroad-y fashion (but with good cause). Players need to accept the railroading a bit for it to work.

However the fact is that because railroading is required is suggestive that an evil party cannot work without it..

This is what happens when selfish a$#!$%# players expect other people to make accomodation for their whims.

No this will not work. At all. By RAW or RAI. The end.

Do you have access to magic users? Clerics or Wizards?

One last bump for am Outer God and the Great Old Ones...