Doc Cosmic's page

In your opinion, how much magic do you like in your world? Is it fun to have quite a number of NPCs with magic items and abilities? Or have you played where very few have magic and enjoyed that?

This is slightly off topic from sandbox - but how do you pace your games? I feel like our game (I am a Player) is too slow, so when it is my turn to take the chair, I want the pace to be quicker. I want to avoid too many encounters that don't have much meaning to the story or just going through a building, room after room and just clearing it out. I find that kind of boring at times.

The questions I provided should be looked at as a spectrum. You can have no magic items....you can have tons of magic items...or you can sit somewhere in between.

The campaign I will be running next is an Exploration Age Fantasy campagin (We are going to try out the new gun rules)..that takes place in a Ravenloft like setting. (Think 3 Musketeers meets Pirates of the Carribean in Strahd's Backyard). The rules for it are..magic items are rare, spellcasters are rare (anyone who wants to play a spellcaster has to roll for it, and there are pretty strict rules for it..including inticiment to the dark side...it is Ravenloft-ish after all. Lastly, npcs higher than lvl 5 are extremely rare...so the leader of a town militia will be around level 4-5 depending on experience. You can see how much of the sandbox gets set up by answering those questions.

Pacing... There is no formula for it, the GM must have a feel for the pace, and if the pace isn't good...to alter it. That comes with time in the chair, and paying attention to the players.

Adventures: You must have 4 adventures prepared for each session. Don't worry, the 3 the players don't do..get recycled into next week, so its a lot of initial work, but is better after things get rolling.

All adventures fall into one of 3 categories: Save something, Find something, or Kill something. Prepare one of each of these types of adventures...3/4 done. Create a dungeon map....last adventure planned. From here it becomes plug and play..pick whatever is most appropriate to what the characters say they are going to do..and implement it.

The wonderful thing about this style is, as you master it...you don't need to prepare anymore. I just show up at sessions with books, sit in the GM chair, and we start playing. Granted, i have been doing this a long time, but the players always think I spend hours and hours crafting such an intricate adventure..where the only thing I do is take good notes, and have a stock of 25 dungeon maps (They still haven't noticed that I recycle them...of course 25 dungeons is about a year of crawl adventure for my group, they enjoy role-playing stuff a lot more)

Lastly (as if this novella was long enough), the character do not need to know that they are doing a quest. They could come across a cave in their travels...forced into it by a rain storm...and lo-n-behold its a dungeon crawl, with a strange item in it. Even though they did the retrieve part of the quest...now the fun comes from determining what it is they have, and what they should do with it. Just another tidbit that alot of GMs don't think about...its ok to do adventures in reverse..sometimes its more fun!

I only run sandbox style games (no offense to module-runners). So, being pretty well-versed in this style, I will offer you a couple tips:

1) How Powerful is the World?

Sure you got your gods, demons and other planar goodies (or baddies). But what about the leader of the local militia? Is he level 3...or level 9. What about the general of the army? What about a gladiator...or a soldier. You need to have a good idea of where these types of NPCs fall, so you can indicate to your players how they compare.

2) How much does magic play a roll in your world.

If everyone is running around blinking like a christmas tree, or are magic items rarer than black on the sun? Are there lots of high level casters...or are there few?

3) How important are the characters to the time line?

I once ran a campaign where the players were a bunch of heroes running around doing their thing...when they met the real movers/shakers of their "universe" They loved the fact that they weren't the main focus of the story, but were still a part of it (They couldn't be the main story...the author of the book would be upset with me if I rewrote the main story....but there is nothing wrong with running around in someone else's story...besides...meeting Belgarath was a neat encounter to Role-Play out as a GM)

These three questions allow you to form up the box you will be playing in. Without them, you will be scrambling to try and figure out what they can and can't do. Even though the world takes form around the actions and decisions of the players....they still need to be within a box.

After that...the rest of development is mostly written for you. Gods are gods...it doesn't really matter...use Forgotten Realms stuff...or Greyhawk...or Pathfinder basic. Rename them if you want. Heck...right now I am using Everquest gods. It really doesn't matter with them (at least if/until the PCs are much higher level).

So..how to keep it interesting:

NOTES!!! lots and lots of notes. Write down every npc the party wrongs / pisses off / cares about / saves. These notes will serve up adventures later on...and nothing says "great campaign" as when you have recurring allies and villains. This will also makes the players fell like they are part of the world...because they get to directly feel the impact of their decisions...because you took the notes on it.

Hope this helps. If you have any other questions, I would be happy to help out :)

Are you a human arcane sorcerer? because if you are, then you can get nearly all the spells you need a caster level for using all the bonus spells and expanded arcana feat, and you can take item creation feats to make the ones you don't.

Having that aside. I am going to go a step further than the others here and ask tat you address the GM with a more serious tone. This is your first experience with him running / this group. I think you have shown amazing patience to literally service the group's needs. But if the GM is going to try and control what you can play, how you can play it, and how you can build it....then he wants you to play an NPC for him, and that isn't fair, it isn't fun, and it isn't something that any player should stand for. Perhaps the GM is new at this. Regardless, the GM's behavior is unacceptable, and should be called out immediately, or he will continue to behave this way. It also sets a poor example for the new players, thinking that this is the way the group goes...the GM just tells you what to do, and when to do it. So take a moment to remind the group that regardless of who GMs...you are all still a group and need to play together...not against each other, and not controlling each other.

I have seen too many groups like this in my decades of playing rpgs...the sooner the behave is addressed and modified, the happier the entire group becomes, and the more fun the game is (regardless of what system you choose to play).

As there is no druid in the party...a plant encounter is needed. Just to make someone say "Damn, wish we had a druid"

If you want to use the Two Weapon Fighter from the APG, you will want 15 levels of fighter at minimum in order to get full advantage of bonuses. If you do not plan to go for 15 levels, then it would be better to take 4 levels of weapon specialist fighter and 10 levels of ranger in order to obtain the feats for dual weilding, and the weapon specialization feats, and weapon training from weapon specialist.

In the former example (TWF 15), I would suggest Falcata as your best weapon choice.

In the latter example (WS4/Rng10), I would suggest Kukri as your best weapon choice.

The important thing for you to do with this character, before you decide to try and do it all, is to pick a schtick, and stick to it. In general, they fall into two categories:

SMASH you hit things, usually pretty hard, emphasizing melee over your ability to cast spells. You focus on your strength, and so your spell DCs are not that good, thus primarily choosing buffs.

build: Paladin4, Sorcerer2, DD4, Paladin3, Sorcerer2, Eldritch Knight5

CAST you like to cast spells, emphasizing spells, and using your melee skills as a back up in case someone pulls an anti-magic field out. You focus on your charisma, and play a caster who has a big sword in case he needs it.

build: Paladin2, Sorcerer4, DD4, EK5, Sorcerer5

Here is a breakdown of the classes and where drop points are:

Paladin: Any level where you get a smite evil (smasher), or after you get the charisma bonus to all saves (caster - the less caster levels you lose, the better, so too big of a dip and you hamstring yourself in the later levels).

Sorcerer: Level 2(smasher - at level one you get no BAB, +2 will save, and 1 level of casting; at level two you get one BAB, +1 will save, and 1 level of casting...level 2 is a great level, it nets you a BAB and a spell level...with the will save as bonus.) As many levels as you can spare (caster-since this is your favored class for a caster build, if you take human, you can learn a spell as your favored class bonus (see APG), so taking more sorcerer levels = more spells known = more versatility)

Dragon Disciple: Easily the best hybrid melee/caster class, the DD packs a good set of abilities into a small number of levels. The come in two packages: DD4 or DD8. You have to make up your mind if you want to sacrifice a spellcaster level and a BAB in order to get to DD8. The best abilities of the class are in the first four levels, which is why so many people only dip for 4 levels.

Eldritch Knight: Ah Vanilla. Not vanilla bean, not vanilla with nuts or chocolate chips in it. Just plain ole vanilla. Not really a treat in and of itself, but put on the right dessert and it is suddenly a la mode! EK is not a bad prestige class, but it is not a good one. Dropping points are at level 5, or 9, depending on how much build room your have. If you can't fit in 5 levels of EK, don't take it...if you can fit in 9 levels of EK, it is not a bad investment. But levels 6-8 are dead levels and don't really net you that much unless your base melee class is fighter (feat qualification). The capstone ability of EK really stinks. It uses a swift action. Swift actions for hybrids are precious: Arcane Strike and Arcane Armor Training are added to your existing list of declaring smite and lay on hands, this makes your life difficult and really isn't worth focusing this kind of build towards. [please lets not get into the arcane armor traing -vs- still spell argument in this thread, neither of them are great solutions to the ASF and so it is entirely personal preference as to which you use]

Personal Preference:
I like to use items of spell storing, and just charge them up in the morning, and then release the spell when I need it, if I go the armored route. If I go the unarmored route (which I prefer), I don't have to worry about casting in armor...besides, mirror image is your friend when it comes to being attacked :)

Personally, I still feel that the Falcata is the best TWF weapon, and well worth the feat.

Keen Falcata: 1d8/17-20/x3; TWF penalty: -1/-1; Enlarged: 2d6 damage
Keen Kukri: 1d4/15-20/x2; TWF penalty 0/0; enlarged: 1d6 damage

So Falcata sacrifices 1 point of attack and 10% chance to crit, for twice as much dice damage, and 50% more crit damage.

And of course, both of them get style points...so its really up to the OP.

Doc Cosmic wrote:

Roleplaying is 100% about how to play your character, and 0% about what "stuff" or abilities your character has. As a roleplayer, you could say..... see your reflection in a spoon, and then decide to use "Spoon" as your battlecry.

That is the fun of roleplaying, it doesn't matter what your character sheet says, you can play your character, however you want to play your character.

And for those of you who know the reference...here is a trip down memory lane

I don't disagree that a person has a right to play his character however he sees fit, so long as it is fun (and by that I mean fun for everyone at the table).

But I do disagree with the notion that it is a rule that roleplaying is 100% not the stuff or abilities your character has.

For the vast majority of us playing over the past four decades, all kinds of stuff on our sheets has been the very basis for how we play our characters. From a low Intelligence or a high Wisdom, to the sword inherited from our grandfather, to a sorcerer fighting the stigma attached to his bloodline, to the biggest no-brainer in this topic - alignment, most of us have chosen the things we have on our sheets because they fit the character concept, thus, they were there for playing the role of the character.

I understand that the argument between roleplaying and "roll" playing has grown over the years, to cause rifts between people and dichotomies of philosophy that can now be difficult to overcome. But the number of times I have seen a call on these boards in the last two days, to totally disregard everything written down about your character, to totally divide and separate his nature and personality from what is written on the sheet, is really kind of scary.

The choices you make for your character, including his bloodline if he is a sorcerer, are all opportunities for better roleplaying. That includes his Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma scores, and his alignment. And that...

Yes, for a couple decades I thought in the very same manner. Only for the past decade(+) have I come out of my "shell"

A family heirloom sword.... what is more poetic, the son who uses the sword or the son who shunnes it and although it is on the sheet he never uses it? If you are playing your character based on a sheet, then what happens when your mind is mentally switched with a dire rat? Well, your sheet really doesn't matter at that point.

Alignment is one of the worst excuses for roleplaying I have experienced, and I greatly appreciate it when game systems throw that junk out. Is Superman LG? how about Batman? What would Conan be? If we really tried to use alignment in the real world it would utterly fail, since people's actions cannot be summarized by such a myopic view of the human psyche. Think of alignment like trying to find an electron, you know it is somewhere in this cloud around the nucleus, but depending on the moment, it could be anywhere.
The sheet is there to summarize and give material form to your imagination. Playing things in reverse, is not really roleplaying but a form of metagaming.

This is really a superfluous argument anyway since none of us can be right, and the OP wasn't really asking about roleplaying but about optimzation (he just worded the question poorly). Everything about roleplaying is subjective. If you need a sheet in order to tell you how to play your character, and that works for you, and you enjoy it....then you are doing it right :)

Roleplaying is 100% about how to play your character, and 0% about what "stuff" or abilities your character has. As a roleplayer, you could say..... see your reflection in a spoon, and then decide to use "Spoon" as your battlecry.

That is the fun of roleplaying, it doesn't matter what your character sheet says, you can play your character, however you want to play your character.

And for those of you who know the reference...here is a trip down memory lane

Down the road, look into ongoing damage effects such as Ball Lightning and Contagious Flame

Free Action: 5 beams of 4d6 fire damage
Swift Action: Quickened Damage spell
Move Action: Move the 3d6 lighening balls around (i think there are 5 of them)
Standard Action: Damage spell

If you can stomach an arcane trickster, and your GM will let you apply sneak attack damage (some are picky), that is just more d6s on the pile.

Buy lots of six-siders...you will need them.

Mooselips wrote:

I'm trying to come up with a good build using the two weapon warrior out of the APG. I'm trying to stay away from rogue, but branch away from warrior for some skills. Anyone have any advice?

Did someone actually read the OP?

OP: do you prefer a full damage build, a build with some ranged attack and decent damage, a build with few maneuvers and decent TWF damage?

Starting Level? Stats? Could you bring some more info?

Yep, and I answered his question with pretty much all the options I could think of. He just wants more skills, so your questions don't really apply to his question/request/post... even though they are excellent questions if he was looking for actual build assistance.

PS - changed your bold to put the emphasis on the correct part of the request :)

If you are looking for concept, play whatever suits your fancy, as the character you are talking about will do fine.

If you are looking for optimization:
To make good use of the Two-Weapon Warrior, you need to use the same one-handed non-light weapon in both hands and you will want 15 levels of the archetype. A good choice would be to burn a feat on Falcata Proficiency and use that 1d8 -> 2d6 when your friendly caster enlarges you. If you go Half-Orc, the Double Axe is pretty great too. The reason you should choose a single weapon is due to the focus and weapon specialization feats, you only have to purchase them once.

If you are planning to dual-weild regularly (offhand light) then do not take the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype, the regular fighter yeilds more benefits.

For more skills, consider:
--bard. For the price of 1 BAB, you get access to nearly all skills, and your get skill points to use them. In addition, inspire courage makes up the 1 BAB you lose. You can have your warrior be an orator and recite shakespeare while you battle.

--barbarian. Full BAB, Rage bonus, and 4+ skill points per level is nothing to sneeze at. It is a natural synergist and has freightening results with dual weilders.

--ranger. Full BAB, good skill points, Endurance (sleeping in armor, as a warrior, is a seriously good perk), and this class helps you qualify for Horizon Walker, which in my opinion, is one of the better prestige classes.

--Chevalier. Full BAB, some paladin goodies without being a paladin, including Smite Evil 1/day. Even only getting it once per day is such a big bonus that the poison immunity, and bonuses to charging and getting into melee are just whip cream on top.

--Student of War. A great prestige class if you want to move that 18 into Intelligence. Full BAB, tons of skills, some nice bonuses, the class's mind over metal allows you to replace dex modifier to AC with your int modifier, of course you are still limited by the armor you choose as to your maximum bonus.

So there are some ideas, for you to think about. Do any of them ignite a spark of interest?

Well, I am going to enter a different suggestion..and I am going to rationalize it first...so here goes...

With your party make up as it stands, you do NOT need:

Battlefield Control
Buffs
Debuffs
Heals
Tank
Skirmisher
Physical Damage Artillery

What you are missing, is an artillery that can attack the different energy types, using monster weaknesses to there advantage...so building a character to fit into that niche, using the AT class, I suggest:

Sorcerer 4/Rogue 1/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 6

Bloodline (either arcane or elemental (acid or electric)) [if you go with arcane, every time you metamagic you increase the spell dc by 1...that is nice especially since you will be using metamagic alot as a blaster.]

Trait: Magical Knack (makes up the lost to caster levels for caster level checks)

Feats:
Stoic (your reflex and will saves will be excellent, stoic subs your charisma modifier for your constitution modifier for your fort save and gives you +2 to saves vs fear)

Metamagic: Elemental Spell (you will get the ability to make any energy spell acid from your bloodline, so just snag this one and use it for electricity or cold [plenty of fire spells already].)

Metamagic: Selective Spell (center a fireball on your fighter, without affected your fighter is worth a +1 increase)

Craft Rod (make rods....seriously good money, and your party full of casters will love you for it)

Hellcat Stealth (invis in light and bright light settings but you get a -10 penalty...no problem [see equipment].

Equipment:
Armored Kilt ASF: 0%, put greater shadow on it, along with a spattering of other armor buffs such as fortification, etc etc etc.

Other items that improve stealth there are many...choose one that works for you.

Spells:
1st: Vanish (with a metamagic rod: quicken this is swift action invisibility but only uses a first level spell...so swift action: vanish, move action: change location, standard action: blast)

4th: Dragon's Breath..multiple damage types with your choice of either cone or line...its hard to say no to such a useful spell.

Building Goals:
Do not rely on greater invisibility and other invisibility spells, as you go up in levels more things will be able to counter those abilities. Instead, look for multiple ways to enjoy the benefits of stealth...remember it is only a move action to go stealthy. Obscuring Mist can provide you the cover to stealth, Grease and Black Tentacles can make things flat-footed for you. Try to find ways to activate your sneak attack without relying on invisibility, because down the road, it will only hurt you if you do.

EDITS: sorry I had to break this post up over the past few hours.....I have been posting between patients and didn't want the forum monster to eat it.

Well, that is an interesting party make-up. Is the fighter built of Melee BFC, Tank or Artillery?

With a witch and two bards you have Ranged BFC, healing and buffs handled perfectly. With the dragon disciple monk you have a great skirmisher. What I do not see is ranged Damage.

If you are looking to fill the ranged damage niche, I would suggest a ranger. The spell-less ranger from Kobold Quarterly #11 (that is currently free to DL) is a good choice for this, if you DM allows it. The ranger can dish out some nice ranged DPS, can cast some decent spells, and get some nice perks that it looks like no one else in your party has. Even a small rogue dip can get you the trapfinder/trapspotter/trapstuff you are looking for (if you can't take spell-less ranger).

As for taking Arcane Trickster as a wizard, I am in agreement with James...it is why none of my ATs have been wizards (they just don't build well with other classes). Sandman Bard is one of the best ways into the AT class, but depending on what you are going for, there are other ways that are just as good. It really boils down to: what exactly are you looking for out of this character (and "I just want to contribute" is not a good answer, since you could make a sage that can contribute a lot to a party).

As you definitely want Wizard/Rogue, there really isn't much wiggle room in terms of building an AT. You won't be able to snag the level 8 wizard powers unless you go into epic levels. Even going with Trapfinder is not going to pay off as much because as an AT you just aren't going to have enough skill points to invest in both the wizard set and the rogue set, so you will have to decide where you want to put your skills, and specialize in those few. At least the perk of using wizard is that your skill points will go up as your intelligence does.

I have played 4 Arcane Tricksters (none of them wizards), so I am interested to hear how you like the "classic" version of the AT :)

Well, the nice thing about the feat, and being a spontaneous caster, is that you can choose when you want to add the fire descriptor and on what spells, allowing you to pick up non-fire spells with your "free" spell choices and adding the fire descriptor to them as needed.

Of course, the 2 level dip for Diabolist is one of the best dips in the game if you are a caster. There are few builds that it does not enhance. The only reason to not take Diabolist is because it does not fit your character concept, so you just can't go wrong with it.

Admonishing Ray + Metamagic (Elemental Spell: Fire) = Scorching Ray.

If you are planning on taking a Flaming Oracle, you should consider investing a feat in Elemental Spell: Fire anyway, to make use of the burning magic ability as much as possible.

You could always go with Cleric 13/Pathfinder Savant 7

Make the cleric of Desna: Chaos(Azata, Protean), Luck (Curse, Fate)

Pathfinder Savant allows you to pick any 6 spells...from any list to add to your own...so you could snag Haste from the Summoner at 2nd level..and other really nice pulls to help fill out your character.

The cleric domains with the subdomains listed do not have any rolls made by you, so that fits with your theme also.

That is just off the top of my head, but it seems like a really fun concept that fits with what you are looking for.

Invest in the mental stats, and make the character elderly, and you could be the party's sage :)

..I am slowly talking myself into this concept lol

Enjoy

I was actually thinking about the two-weapon fighter variant for his sword and whip...but I am getting behind the Anti-Paladin/Arcane Duelist Bard Balor

his weapon of choice

PS - sorry for the threadjack

PPS - sorry about the nick....I decided to abbreviate and with all those tendrils...I just thought to myself that you are a very amorous individual...amorous amorangias....or just amor for short ;)

You know...in thinking about this more. The game really breaks down after level 30, because there is no way AC can keep up with BAB (it does it poorly up to level 30 as it stands) but imagine a BAB +60, that means you'd need an AC in the 90s to not get hit regularly. That is nuts lol

Ah...now I understand what you are asking for. I like the concept, and like Amor says..at lvl 60 you will be BAMF even without optimization.

As far as spell selection goes. Don't worry about it. You will be bloated with spells both in terms of castings per day and in terms of spells selected. So pretty much take anything that works off of a CL check and serves a good purpose and you will be fine.

Is your GM going to be crafting the monsters using character levels? ...because an Anti-Paladin20/Fighter20 Balor scares the beejeezus outta me lol

Wow....60 levels is alot.....and since you didn't state core only...

Sorcerer12/Dragon Disciple8/Oracle20/Mystic Theurge10/Paladin10

This gives you all the divine spells you could possibly want AND all the arcane spells. Both are spontaneous and based off of Charisma. Mystic Theurge lets you trade between the spell slots giving you flexibility, and since many spells are on both lists it eases the pain of choosing spells a bit.

Sorcerer12+DD8=Half-Dragon Template..so no reason to take 30 levels of the draconic line, you won't get many perks for that.

If you are a human, take the Eclectic Feat and choose Oracle, that will give you 12 extra sorcerer spells and 16 extra oracle spells. Opening up so many options you won't know what to do with yourself.

In thinking about it...Mystic Theurge does become a useful class if you have more than 30 levels to play with...otherwise it really is sub-par. But in a game where you have extra levels to throw around, the ability to trade around spells becomes handy.

If you don't like that large of a Mystic Theurge investment:
Sorcerer12/DD8/Oracle20/Paladin18/Mystic Theurge2 (Paladin/Sorcerer...maxes both of their spells to 20)

In retrospect...I like the latter build better, since Mystic Theurge still is kinda suck-tastic compared to 8 more levels of Pally. Go with the last one LOL

Dude....an Int 11 is smarter than the average human. The fighter was not Forest Gump for crying outloud. He is more like a mid to high rank field commander. He should absolutely "know all that stuff".

Technically as a fighter, if he took one skill point and put it into "that stuff" he could have been making all the rolls he wanted to for it. This is not a case of min/max-ing...its a case of not understanding that a "10" is normal. Normal. A "10" is a high school graduate....actually...considering 75% of americans graduate high school....perhaps a high school graduate is more of a "9".

So, that fighter is smarter than a high school graduate..perhaps he even has an associate's degree. (using today's examples since they are easier to understand).

Attributes have very little to do with how you play your character...just like flour has very little to do with what kind of cookies you are making. If you want to make cookies, chances are, you will use flour. If you want to make a character, you better have attributes. Your scores in these attributes only determine the foundation of the house you are going to build.

Even if the fighter "only" had an Int 11, if he had invested points into K(history) when a fighter with an Int 22 had not invested skill points in it, then he would...in fact...be BETTER at it than the fighter who didn't. That is one of the beautiful things about pathfinder (as opposed to 4E), your character does not hinge on your attributes.

So, this is less of a min/maxer or optimizer issue, than it is an issue that the player doesn't understand the system. Hope that was enough analogies for you... lol...what can I say...I like analogies.

Vital Strike is a bad investment....unless...you are a mounted lancer and you have a whole bunch of feats that you don't know what to do with (happens infrequently).

Whirlwind Attack is not a bad investment....but it isn't a good one either. It takes too many feats to get into it, and it is a pain to set up to be really effective. There are much better feats that you can snag that will benefit you more.

Cleave is not a bad investment...but train out of it later. As soon as you can launch three attacks per round, you won't use Cleave..like ever. And, Great Cleave is even less fantastic. Not to mention the fact that if your GM allows the NPCs to have half a brain, they are all going to be trying to flank you, and in order for cleave to work, they need to be standing in a connected formation for you. For these reasons, and more, I see Cleave as a feat for levels 1-4 and get out of it after that.

Weapon Master Variant - I personally don't like it. It takes away too many good perks from the fighter and replaces them with...not so great perks. Now, if your intent is to only take 4 levels of fighter...Weapon Master is the bomb. If you are planning on riding the fighter all the way to level 20, the core fighter comes out stronger.

It is a 20 point buy.....

Str 14
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 11
Cha 7

Put human bonus in strength and the stat array ends...
S16, D16, C14, I13, W11, Ch7

APG Variants:
Shielded Fighter is not better than a Core fighter, simply because he is specializing in a defensive weapon that most things at high level are going to be able to ignore.

Two-Weapon Fighter is better than core if the character will be using the same non-light melee weapon in both hands. Otherwise, the core fighter is superior.

Phalanx Fighter is a bit of a deceptive cookie. Most of its abilities look fantastic, until you take in to consideration that you can't bash with a tower shield, and the best perks of the AT come from....using a tower shield. So you get "half-bonuses" from the abilities which are handy, but do not really take it above the core fighter. Personally, armor training and weapon training are just too good to trade in for the bonuses listed under this AT for non-flavor characters. But if you are planning to make a roman, you cannot go wrong with the phalanx fighter.

Just my 2cp, YMMV.

As I love to play Sword-n-Spell characters I will give you this piece of advice to help guide your build:

Pick a role, and master it. You can SMASH, or you can CAST, but you cannot do both well.

SMASH: Invest in strength, use your class bonus for hit points, take more levels of paladin, feats go to improving melee ability. Build example: Paladin4/Sorcerer2/DD8/EK5/Paladin(the rest). Take spells that buff yourself, since your spell DCs will not be very high (becuase you concetrate on strength) and a Will DC17 save is easy for a level 11 character to make.

CAST: Invest in charisma, use your class bonus to add more spells to your spell list (yay human!), use feats to improve your casting or add more spells to your list, and take more levels of sorcerer. Build example: Paladin2/Sorcerer3/DD4/Sorcerer11. Trait: Magical Knack (to make up the lost caster levels on CL checks). Gear: Robe of Arcane Heritage (to make up the lost bloodline levels).

Lastly :)
Make sure this is the kind of character you want. You will not be fantastic at either role, but you will be great at one, and decent at the other. You will be versatile and have many options at your disposal, so keep track of your situation, it will dictate how to spend your abilities much more than a barbarian whose primary responsibility is to get angry and rage swim (I still get a kick out of the ability of a barbarian to get mad at the water lol).

In all honesty, you don't really need a map because you can't map an imagination ;) You can get by without one if you have a good concept of where you want them to be. Maps can sometimes become a hinderance...like when you want a mountain adventure, and the mountains are 4 weeks of travel away.

If you don't want to craft the map yourself, you have a few options:

1) Ask someone else to create it. I know, you feel bad imposing on someone else to do your work for you. But you are making a major mistake, you are deciding how someone else feels about mapmaking. There are people in this world, who think it is the best thing ever to draw maps and they do it for free because they enjoy it so much, and thus by not asking them to create it, you are robbing them of their leisure/fun hobby activity. Do not assume, just ask. If they don't want to do it, they won't do it, but ultimately, let them be the judge of how they want to spend their time.

2) Use an already created map. Sure its not "original" for your campgain, but it was original when it was first created. You can use a map of the world in 1612, it looks a bit different because cartography was not as precise as it is today...or you can use a fabricated world. Hundreds if not Thousands of games have created maps for their worlds, grab their maps and go on a renaming frenzy. The Everquest maps are kinda nice for use, so was the map of the world of Darren, and the list goes on and on.

3) Use a computer program. There are several games that come with "world builders" like "Sid's Civilization" I believe there are free ones online. Get one of those, press the random button and voila, a basic map that you can get started on naming stuff on. Just make sure to find a program you like.

Ending Thoughts:
This is not an art show. No one will be submitting your map for an award. You can draw a crummy map and say "Well, the cartographer had a crummy craft score" maybe you guys should adventure and make a better one. There are tons of reasons to give a map that you feel is not high quality "what do you expect for 1gp?" Ultimately, the map is there as a game aid, as a visual tool to be used to gauge travel time and locations. Besides, most players will look at it for about 1 minute, say that is kewl, give it back to you and say those words every GM and parent loves to hear... "Tell us when we get there."

Doc

Much has already been said, and you seem to have an excellent grasp of the rules/system, so I am not going to offer up much character build advice. But I do take exception to one thing you said, and feel it is a good idea to voice this issue.

You state...

"I'd like to show that a pure rogue is a viable choice. No one in our group has ever done one."

And yet you have chosen one of the worst rogue builds in order to prove the effectiveness of the rogue class. Furthermore, you hold that you intend to build this character to "fill the holes" of your party, rather than make the most "rogue-y" rogue possible. While pathfinder wants everyone to remain pure in their base class, it is not always in the best interest of the character concept to do so...which is the case for what you have chosen.

So, I politely ask that you and your group do not judge the rogue class on the character concept you are so adamant to play. You are trying to shoehorn the rogue into a concept that does not play to the rogue's strength, and shows many of its weaknesses.

Thanks for letting me borrow your eyes and minds, I now return you to your usual thread....

But isn't that the point of playing God (aka Wizard)? You take the spells needed for the situation, which is dictated by party composition, environment and adversary. So, I am going to have to politely disagree with your assassment/experience with the class. The wizard is a reed in the wind, he bends to accomidate the weather. The fighter is a iron rod in a field...he takes everything in the face and is broken when something greater than he comes along.

But yes, the OP should create whatever he wants...and so should the GM, I don't know why everyone always places the responsibility on the GM for making sure no one is penalized...the GM's job is to present a reasonable puzzle for the characters to solve, whether it is a combat scenario, trap, riddle, social interaction, etc etc. How the PCs decide to solve that puzzle, is up to them (I had a bard PC punch my diplomat in the face...not the solution I had in mind...but oh well). The GM has plenty of work crafting the adventure, don't make him/her do more work, otherwise the adventure suffers.

Take a Barbed Devil and add Anti-Paladin levels to taste?

Damn that is wicked.....remembering for the future.

But, FWIW, I have never found a "tank" to be necessary in D&D. There is no MMO-style mechanic to generate "aggro." A high AC character does nothing for the rest of the party because the DM can freely choose who to attack.

Not really pigeon-holes, the wizard gets many more spells than the inquistor gets feats, and the druid can sacrifice any spell to summon some friends. So, it is not "forcing" them to the same degree as it would be "forcing" the melee character.

And even though a "tank" is not needed...an alpha absorber is. You need someone/something to run in and take the first series of hits. The casters need to decide if they want to use their spells to heal/buff the front-liner...or create a small army. For my money, it takes less spells to make an army than it does to heal/buff the party...so I say "Pikachu, I choose you!!!"

Metamagic Feats I find handy on a human arcane sorcerer:

Elemental Spell: Electricity
Elemental Spell: Acid
Intensified Spell
Quicken Spell
Selective Spell

You will notice that all of them except Quicken Spell is +1, if you metamagic a spell up more than 1 level, it becomes very difficult to justify the feat because spells that are 2 levels higher are in the high school play-yard...and the metamagic spell is just a really tall 3rd grader :(

You have a druid and a wizard in the party. By the time a "tank" is required...they can summon a small army to do the "tanking". Build your character the way you want and don't worry to much about not having a tank...especially with 2.75 skimishers (you, ranger, bardbarian) and an artillery (archer).

I would recommend looking at the student of war prestige class, it sounds like it fits the idea you are going for very well. Especially if you combine it with a Duelist.

Rangers can be fantastic as front liners.

Front line options:
(Strength) Take Heavy Armor Proficiency and get yourself some mithril full plate, and you will have no issues whatsoever. Falchion is your friend, nice big composite bow, choose a race that allows you to +2 your strength.

(Dexterity) Elf eeks out on this one, especially with some of those APG options. Get yourself some Celestial Armor and ask you GM if you can complete quests to upgrade the magical bonus on it...GMs love adventure hooks especially when provided by players. 2h Elven Curve Blade becomes your 2h of choice since you can weapon finesse it and use that viscious dex to hit with it.

I would go with Treantmonk's Switch Hitter, 2h weapons requires few feats to structure a potent build, allowing you to perform two jobs easily, whereas most classes can only perform one :)

enjoy your ranger...they are a hoot :)

Well, paizo is very slow to release prestige class content because the pathfinder game is very much against PrCs. They want you to stick with a base class all the way through. Almost anytime you multiclass, you become a bit less optimum than if you had remained "pure" (there are a few exceptions).

Well, if the character has his heart set on not making any modifications to his character classes, or the levels of those classes, and he does not want to entertain the thought of classes with non-full BAB progression, then the best question becomes...

What they heck is this character suppossed to do? It sounds like he wants to do everything, and is upset that he can't, and so has become stalwart with the idea that he is going to prove something. So ask him what he envisions when he sees his character, and maybe he will stop looking at his statistics, and everyone else's performance and start to enjoy his character for being his character.

As regards to the Role playing aspect of the game, it doesn't matter what classes you have, when it comes to role playing its all about how you envision your character, which I don't think this player has done. So I am going to disagree with you that pathfinder needs to come out with better role playing rules.

If you meant that pathfinder doesn't have good options to merge most of the classes together, you are absolutely correct. I agreed with that in my first paragraph. But you play with what they have if you can only play core. If your GM is allowing Player created, he might as well allow 3.5 material, since player stuff is usually more out of control than the old 3.5 stuff. If we can use 3.5 stuff, then some pretty good options open up for this character....

This was also done in the old 3.5 books as well. Savage Species? The Draconomicon? Whether or not they were done well, no clue.

Not done well...the power creep in those books really didn't do anything to bring dragons back in line with PCs...in fact, I believe Pun-Pun was born from those books.

It is possible to have a young dragon adventure with the party but he will always be the star of the party, and of all the other dragons. If he starts off at CR7 and he gains 13 levels of fighter...he becomes CR20...when he finishes aging, he is going to have a CR in the high 20s if not 30s. You may not think this is important because he is just "going to retire" at level 20, but this sets the precidence for the rest of your world, I doubt he will be the only dragon to have done this.

So, not only are you making more work for yourself in terms of balancing encounters and trying to make everyone feel useful, but you are also giving yourself a headache in trying to create encounters with "standard" creatures.

Personal Experience with Dragons in the Party:
Now, having said this, I wrote a prestige class for a player who wanted a dragon themed druid. She wanted a dragon as a companion (prolly watched how to train a dragon too many times). To create this, I built it as a cohort that gains one level (fighter or sorcerer only) for every two levels in the prestige class she takes. She also had to lose her animal companion as a pre-req to gain the cohort. So, a young dragon, who is CR 9 in a party of CR12s is actually pretty balanced, where the dragon isn't shining more than the players. If that dragon where CR12 like everyone else, the difficulty of the encountered would have to be increased to such a level that I would fear for the actual PCs. If you would like me to put the building/progression instructions I used up for you, I will.

I actually agree with the last few posters. He wants to both not min-max and play a terrible combination; then refuses to compromise on his build. No need to rewrite rules just to make him "feel useful", it's a hard build concept and if he wants to stick with it "for flavor" he'll be downgraded to an occasionally healing mostly buffing guy for the rest of the party. At least he can cast haste or bull's strength and make others more useful. But making prestige classes that overenhance him is not the solution. Tell him the concept doesn't work, he can make it work but he needs to flex. Introduce the Magus, and tell him while it is not a Paladin he can play it with the Paladin code and remain a member of the Paladin order, maybe even let him take a pool ability that let's him burn Pool for d6 lay on hands per pool point to help the concept.

I am in 100% agreement with this post, I would ammend it to include a mention of the Chevalier PrC. Have his character play a Magus 10/ Chevalier 3/ Magus [the rest] and he can be an arcane paladin...complete with aura of courage and smite evil.

I wouldn't suggest the Bard dip personally. Not that it is a bad choice, but the character just doesn't seem to be set up well to capitalize on the bard abilities. You may want to save that idea for your next character and make a Sandman bard (bard heavily seasoned with rogue)

With your stat array, I would suggest the Fighter Dip and then take a look at Dervish Dance feat to use a scimitar (lets you treat scimitar as a peircing weapon for Duelist and using dex instead of str for scimitar damage)...second time I have suggested that feat today...weird.

If you wanted to take caster...I believe the current Magus playtest is allowable, and that would synergize nicely with your build ... at least better than I believe the bard to synergize with your current build. So you may want to look at that.

If you have your heart set on Duelist, and don't mind switching up from a bard, you could always go with a wizard for spells...

Elf Fighter/Wizard/Duelist/Eldritch Knight

Fighter for the Weapon Master in Scimitar, it will allow you the extra feats needed for Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance, granting you the ability to use your dexterity for attack and damage with your scimitar which....

Wizard allows you to arcane bond, which you can put on your scimitar. Wizard also grants access to a better spell list, allowing you (with some combinations) 7th level spells. Wizard also has a good Int requirement which...

Duelist grants one point of AC per point of Int...allowing you to "make up" lost AC from not wearing armor [the Int bonus adds to your dex bonus to AC, which is limited by armor, so you really don't want to wear armor as a duelist] If you have Bracers of Armor 8 and an Int bonus to AC of 5...that is equivalent to an armor bonus of 13...which is full plate +4...not bad for only bracers...but they are expensive. Dervish Dance also allows you to treat the scimitar as a piercing weapon, very handy since that allows you to activate your other duelist abilities. A good dip into duelist is 5 levels, but flavor to taste.

Eldritch Knight finishes off the building, allowing you full BAB and 9/10 caster level progression, not a bad way to finish off the character, as it allows you to pull more fighter feats such as weapon specialization and the like.

Again, this is a side suggestion that could also accomplish what I think you are looking for, which is a duelist that casts spells.

In general, the AD bard is such a nice set-up of abilities that it can go several different ways and be exquisitely useful and effective, so we really can't say one build is superior to another without some sort of character concept decision.

That being said, the AD bard gets heavy armor proficiency, and can cast spells out of heavy armor, and gets weapon bond. The Duelist loses some really nice abilities if you wear medium + armor, or have an object in your other hand. So what you have is the duelist restricting some of the better abilities that the AD bard grants. You may want to take that into consideration.

In addition, the Duelist requires intelligence to really benefit from one of its abilities. The AD Bard requires 3 attributes to be "safe": Charisma, Strength (Dexterity), and Constitution. Int and Wis tend to be the dump stats for those character types, especially since bards rock so many skill points per level anyway. So, you will be taking one dump stat and turning it into a secondary stat, that takes points away from your primary stats.

If you want to go with a Smasher, the AD16/DD4 is most likely the best way to go. At level 20, you trade 1 caster level for +2 to hit and +2 to damage (+3 if 2h weapon smasher), you also get some other really nice goodies that will help you in melee.

If you don't want a Smasher, then taking levels in Dragon Disciple becomes less and less of a good idea. It can be marginally rationalized for the Bow AD as you can get a better composite bow, however with that build your concentration is more on Dexterity, so the DD class becomes a bit less optimized for you, but perhaps still better than just straight AD Bard. <This is my personal opinion as iI feel the last four levels of AD Bard are not as good as the first 16.>

For Lawful Evil Clerics, I have always been partial to Zon-Kuthon.

Death's Embrace at 8th level means every time I channel negative energy, I hurt the bad guys and heal myself. For extra fun, cast deeper darkness (which you see through thanks to eyes of darkness) and you are a walking black hole of negative energy....

...its also fun at parties :)

Not to mention you get the spiked chain...which isn't as good as it was in 3.5, but since you get auto-proficiency in it, it is not a bad choice.

I would probably add 5 levels of fighter to pick up Weapon Specialization and Point Blank Master, using the additional feats to add to your "situational strategies".

Then finish off the build with 3 levels of Horizon Walker to gain flight as an ability. As an archer the best defense for you is to have distance between you and your target/enemy, and flight is a very easy way to obtain that distance.

Here is a system I created that we are currently trying out. It is actually working out wonderfully. It doesn't "nerf" the casters, but it changes their incentive to continue gaining spell slots.

First, any class that gets less that 7 spell levels (Bard, Paladin, Ranger, etc etc) are not affected by this rule.

Second, any class that gets level 7, 8 and 9 spells are affected by the following rules.
- All 7th, 8th, and 9th levels spells have been removed from access. If you have a prestige class that grants you access to a particular spell, you may still gain that spell, but only as the class feature. The 7th, 8th and 9th level bonus spells for clerics, sorcerers and oracles have been removed as well, any 7th, 8th or 9th level spell must be accessed by a prestige class.

- The caster is still required to have a casting attribute of 10 + the spell slot level, in order to gain the spell slots, bonus metamagic feat and enhancing level effect. For example: in order to gain level 8 spell slots a wizard must have an intelligence of 18.

*** When a character gains the slots for 7th level, the character's spells are enhanced by a +1 bonus to determine the spell's DC, and +1 bonus to caster level to overcome spell resistance and for concentration checks. This effect can and does stack with the benefit of the heighten spell metamagic feat. Therefore, a 13th level wizard with an Int modifier of +5, casting a 1st level spell would normally have a DC of 16 [10 +5(mod) +1(spell)], but under our system, the DC is 17 [10(lvl) +5(mod) +2(spell+1)]. In addition, the character may choose any metamagic feat with a spell level modifier of +1 as a bonus feat when he gains his first 7th level spell slot. The character still gains his slots for 7th level, allowing him/her to prepare metamagically enhanced spells into those 7th level slots, or use them for other spells.

*** When a character gains the slots for 8th level, the character's spells are enhanced by a +2 bonus to determine the spell's DC, and +2 bonus to caster level to overcome spell resistance and for concentration checks. This effect can and does stack with the benefit of the heighten spell metamagic feat. Therefore, a level 15 wizard with an Int modifier of +5, casting a 1st level spell would normally have a DC of 16 [10 +5(mod) +1(spell)], but under our system, the DC is 18 [10 +5(mod) +3(spell+2)]. In addition, the character may choose any metamagic feat as a bonus feat when he gains his first 8th level spell slot. The character still gains his slots for 8th level, allowing him/her to prepare metamagically enhanced spells into those 8th level slots, or use them for other spells.

*** When a character gains the slots for 9th level, the character's spells are enhanced by a +3 bonus to determine the spell's DC, and +3 bonus to caster level to overcome spell resistance and for concentration checks. This effect can and does stack with the benefit of the heighten spell metamagic feat. Therefore, a level 17 wizard with an Int modifier of +5, casting a 1st level spell would normally have a DC of 16 [10 +5(mod) +1(spell)], but under our system, the DC is 19 [10 +5(mod) +4(spell+3)]. In addition, the character may choose any metamagic feat as a bonus feat when he gains his first 9th level spell slot. The character still gains his slots for 9th level, allowing him/her to prepare metamagically enhanced spells into those 9th level slots, or use them for other spells.

Abe: I think you mean summon monster 6, remember the magician is still limited to a spell of a level he can cast (level 6 for bards).

As for the magician archetype bard. It is really a late blooming, lackluster class, that is ripe with roleplaying potential. Lets examine the perks to see why...

Dweomercraft: Lose inspire courage. OUCH! Especially in your party that is composed entirely of weapon oriented strikers. Two with a bow, one with a sword, this performance is only going to help you, and even so, it doesn't affect spell DCs, this means all those great autohit spells that force saves, don't recieve the benefit of this song. I really can't see a ton of use for this until the bonus is higher and the team is composed of more caster types...preferably 3.

Spell Suppression: sounds like a good ability, until you read the fine print. You have to use this song for a number of rounds before it really activates. That means, if a caster uses a level 8 spell in rounds 1 - 7 of combat, you can't suppress it. That is not a great ability. Secondly, it suppresses using the 3rd level dispel magic, not the better 5th level version. So, really I am going to have to say dirge of doom is better than this one...by a long way.

Metamagic Mastery: coming in at level 14 you finally get the best substitution song. Performance is a swift action at this point, so for a cost of 1 round of performance and a swift action, you may apply a metamagic feat to a spell, cast said spell AND still move. That is wonderfully awesome and could really be called the capstone of the class. It opens up lots of possibilities and reasons to take metamagic feats left and right. This is why the archetype is late blooming...you get your first taste of awesome at level 14.

Magical Talent: hmmm..trade a +1 per two levels on 10 skills for +1 per two levels on 3 skills. That is like trading 4 quarters for a 10 dollar bill, no thanks. Yeah, they are kinda useful skills since you are a caster...but you are losing 70% of bardic knowledge on skills that you are going to max out anyway..and in the long run, will be so over the top that you don't need to free points anyway.

Improved Counterspell: useful.

Extended Performance: lose spells to power something I get a crazy amount of rounds of anyway. Besides I already lost inspire courage and dirge of doom...what would I want to extend with my precious spells that I only have a finite amount of. Especially when you can take a feat that gives you more rounds. Yes, you can overlap bardic performance effects, and that may be a bit handy, but your spells are a much better use of those slots then extended performances. So, I am gonna give this one a "not-so useful". It replaces Well-Versed..which is very nice at resisting charms since charm spells require audible components and are language dependant. I am going to vote for Well-Versed on this one.

Expanded Repertoire: get spells that are still limited by your bardic casting level. Ok, you can add some damage spells to your repertoire. Great, but you can get those put on wands for everything up to level 4. Making this only useful for level 5 and 6 spells...which means you will be able to get two spells of 5th or 6th level (as Abe showed, you can fiddle with classes to get them in a spot you want them). 2....that is it. You are trading two spells for versatile performance: the ability to use performance skill scores for two skills?!? I can't say this is a good trade either.

Arcane Bond: yummy.

Wand Mastery: Other capstone of the class, at least in my mind. Make anything on a wand, basically a spell you can use is just fantastic. But again, this awesome ability comes late...level 10 and improved at level 16.

So..is magician worth it?
Gains:
- 2 extra spells (from any list)
- Arcane Bond
- Wand Mastery
- Metamagic Mastery

Loses:
- Inspire Courage
- Bardic Knowledge (definitely better than its replacement)
- Well-Versed
- Versatile Perforamnce (so helpful with the skill monkey portion of class)
- Dirge of Doom

Personally, I think if you want to play a caster...take a true caster, the magician just doesn't measure up to a core bard. Fun to roleplay, but he doesn't come into his own until Bard 14, and that is a long time to wait. It also limits the amount of goodies you can get from Arcane Trickster, as you will still need to grab rogue 1 and assassin/master spy 1, which means 16 levels gone...4 levels remain for AT. If the campaign is going epic...that is perfect, if not, I don't think you will be happy with the character's performance.

<Disclaimer: This post is entirely opinion and experience and is not meant to be taken as class-bashing or disparaging to any player who plays/loves this class.>

EDIT: accidently switched class abilities...sorry...fixed it now.

So what would be the best way to make this build work? I'm intrigued :D

See my post above from Wednesday LOL

I was going through that other thread above again, and noticed something weird.

"When you hit EK levels, you'll thank me for picking Witch, since you've chosen either Strength patron(for Divine Power, Righteous Might, Greater Magic Weapon and Giant Form) or Wisdom patron(for Shield of Faith, Magic Vestment, Globe of Invulnerability) and shine in melee. Drop the armor, use a reach weapon and change to Stilled spells that imitate combat maneuvers(assuming the Witch gets any) when someone closes in or pick Transformation patron and maul everyone with beast/dragon/other shape spells and decent BAB."

This doesn't seem right to me...you won't get very many patron spells at all because the advancement in caster level only affects spells known and spells per day, not bonus spells. Or am I wrong about this?

you are correct, I went through making a Witch/EK to see if it ended up Hexblade-y or not. It really landed flat on its ear. The Witch, like most of the base classes in APG, is specifically crafted with pathfinder's unspoken rule that base classes must be better than prestige classes. Once you start with Witch, you do not want to leave the class, as your losses will just get exponential worse than the gains you get for hybridizing/prestiging.

Ok...your team is really hurting. 4 characters: 1 melee striker, 1 ranged striker, 1 undecided [not controller, buffer] and you [leaning towards striker] is going to make one heck of a "zerg" team. How do you solve problems? Zerg It!!

I am actually going to suggest something completely different. This will mesh well with the party, and potentially give you the "type" of character you are asking for, but with a completely different spin.

Have you thought of a Sandman Bard?

There are two ways to make this work...

1. Sandman Bard 20. A solid class, don't have a spell that you see someone else using...steal it and use it as your own! You also get some sneak attack bonus and some other goodies. Add that sneak attack bonus to a scorpion whip (1d6 lethal, otherwise a normal whip) and you can do some decent damage without being in the middle of the fray.

2. Sandman Bard 10/Arcane Trickster 10. More sneak attack damage, a little less on the stealing of other people's spells, this class rocks some very handy perks that can allow you to stay in the combat zone without getting your behind handed to you.

3. Sandman Bard 7/Master Spy 1/Arcane Trickster 10. A faster way to gain access to the Arcane Trickster perks, this build gives you a couple extra levels to take other classes to suite your needs.

why suggest Bard?
1) Who else is going to be the face of the party? The battle-scarred barbarian or the "death from a distance" ranger? You will be able to fill that role nicely.

2) You can be the knowledge base of the party. Again, a role no one else is going to fill.

3) This Bard build only requires good dex and cha, since the whip is weapon finesse-able. Which helps round out the character package nicely.

4) You can battlefield control and buff/debuff. If there is an enemy spell caster tearing into you with offensive spells...take them away from him, and then cast them right back at him.

I don't think your crew needs another striker, but if you can fill the other roles that are missing, your character will most likely become the "leader" since you are the one that talks to everybody and knows the answers....just remember that when they ask you to devy up the loot ;)

Thanks for the responses! ^_^

voska66 wrote:

By caster do you only mean the arcane casting.

Yeah...unfortuanately for this setting that my DM is running Divine Magic doesn't exist. He's compensated this by adding an additional Restoration Arcane School that has curative spells in it.

Alot of good ideas in that thread above. The witch is intriguing but you sacrifice alot - HP's, BAB, and Armored Casting (Which you could negate with feats, but that's 2 feats out of the mix.)

I'm thinking what I'm going to end up doing is Fighter 2/Arcane Duelist 4/Dragon Disciple 4/Eldritch Knight 8. I miss out on the capstone, but I don't think we're going that high, and if we are I've been assured we'll be going epic so I'll get it eventually. Still up in the air though.

The barb concept is pretty cool too, but we already have a barb...granted that's not to say we can't have 2, but I'm one for diversifying.

We've been given a stat array of 19 17 14 13 11 9. I've arranged them thusly: STR[17] DEX[14] CON[11] INT[13] WIS[9] CHA[19]. We're starting at level 5 so I have a spare point but I'm debating between more melee damage vs higher spell DC's.

I'm doing Half-Elf with the Ancestral Arms racial option gaining the Bastard Sword proficiency for free. Placing my +2 in STR gives me a 19. (DM thinks curve blade is broken *shrug*). We start with enough GP for a +1 so base damage for me is 1d10+7 weilding 2-handed. Coupled with Power Attack and Arcane Strike (Magical Knack giving me full caster level for now) that's a 1d10+15 damage. Not too shabby. Then we throw in bardsong and well...you get the idea.

I'm still wrestling myself despite this, though, because Bards don't really have too many offensive spells....but Sorc would strip me of armor and lower BAB...

Thoughts?

Sorry about the quadruple post...my computer went haywire.

1. What is your party make-up already?

2. Other than cast spells what do you want to do?

3. What kind of spells do you want to cast?

4. Which party role are you interested in filling with this character? [Tank, Striker, Controller, Buff/Debuffer]

Answering these questions will help you create the "gish" you are looking for, rather than splitting hairs.

PS - 4 levels of AD Bard is a waste of the class. If you are going AD Bard, minimum level investment is 10, good investment 12, with optimal level investment 16.

... the DD is at it's best when using claw claw bite behind a very high strength.

This is true at the lower levels, but it breaks down at higher levels / if you don't have your claws for enough rounds. Even with a Charisma of 18, you can only "hulk out" for 7 rounds. That really isn't enough in an average aventuring day, especially when baddies have more hit points.

At higher levels, you will need a two-handed weapon to continue as your party's striker.

Hasted Claws DD gets two claws (normal str bonus) and one bite (1.5 strength bonus) at +BAB/+BAB/+BAB

Hasted 2h-weapon DD gets iterative + hasted attacks all at (1.5 strength bonus), they therefore do more damage with each hit and have attacks of +BAB/+BAB/+(BAB-5)/+(BAB-10). In addition, the weapon will do more damage than your claws will/hold more enchantments (even when they do energy damage, you could have bonuses on your weapon that exceed what you can put on your claws).

IMHO the claws are a excellent back-up, but should not be the primary focus of the character for melee output.