Because of an error with Paizo's site, I can't currently edit campaign info to list maps, etc. So this alias will have links to those things.
Added to campaign info:
Text of advertisement:
HELP WANTED: Sackbury Mining Corporation
200 brenins will be awarded to the person or persons who resolve a rash of crimes occurring in Pentrefan. Mining equipment has been vandalized and several workers have been assaulted. The efforts of bodyguards, mercenaries, and investigators are all welcome. Report to SMC local office in Pentrefan for further information.
Note that Pentrefan is about fifty miles from Dinas Diwydiant along a somewhat arduous but commonly-used mountain road. Some coaches travel between the two cities (5 gp for a one-way ticket). Supply wagons travel more commonly along the route and would take a passenger for 1 gp. A brenin is the name of the platinum coin inscribed with the image of King Aeron, the last king of Haernwlad. During his reign, he transitioned the nation peacefully into a republic where land-holders elect the ruling body.
Edit: King's name changed to Aeron.
Alright, we're getting things started today. World map and map of Pentrefan available. Note that other than what you've personally experienced, your character wouldn't know about other locations on the map without asking someone, a K geo roll, or buying a map.
Hrm, somehow I didn't actually see yesterday's post about the travel options and such until just now.
Anyway, I'll post soon!
EDIT: What season is it?
Thanks, Ives. Good to know.
Great question, Teleri. It is currently late spring!
You guys may or may not have noticed from playing with me but I tend to fire back most quickly around 8-9 am and 5-6 pm EST. Sometimes I check later in the evening but I don't have wi-fi at home so this is always on my phone, which is less preferable. I just mention it because, while I'm sure we'll have no trouble maintaining at least a post per day each, it'll be fun to rapid-fire every now and then if/when our schedules align.
Good to know.
There are a few rules things I want to talk over before they come up, so that we'll all be on the same page. I've stuck these behind spoilers just because they're long.
Traditionally, there were basically four things that might give away that you're casting a spell: somatic components, verbal components, the necessity of manipulating material components, and the spell effect.
Somatic components are, of course, visible. If your spell has them, and somebody's looking at you, then they definitely tell that you're waving your arms around and making weird finger gestures, which is probably a dead giveaway that you're casting something. The easiest way to conceal them is to break line of sight -- if your target is not looking at you, or if they can't see the hand you're using to gesture with, then the somatic component can't give you away (to the target; it's possible other observers might be in a position to see).
Verbal components can be heard. The exact phrase from the description of spell components in the Magic chapter is: "To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice." The phrasing there is perhaps a tad on the vague side. People have different opinions on whether "strong" means "loud" or not. I am inclined to think that "strong" means "clearly enunciated", but that it does not necessarily imply speaking loudly. GM, I'd particularly like a ruling on how far away Teleri needs to be before she can reasonably be certain that her target cannot hear her speaking the spell component. It may not be possible at low levels, and that's fine.
Material components are generally not going to be an issue for Teleri. As a sorcerer, she has Eschew Materials. I only count 16 enchantment spells with costly components, none of which are lower than 3rd level (which is ages away -- if, indeed, we ever get that far).
The Spell Effect means whatever the result of the spell is. A fireball is going to be super obvious. Generally, I'm inclined to think that enchantment effects are not, as they manifest in changed behavior of their targets rather than immediately obvious changes in the physical world.
So, under a strictly classical regimen, Teleri would stand a reasonable chance of casting an enchantment on someone without being detected if she can do it at range and out sight. In addition, I don't see anything preventing the casting of an enchantment spell on a sleeping creature, and that would certainly make it much easier, as they're unconscious and take severe penalties on perception checks for that reason.
With the introduction of the occult classes, however, the Paizo devs introduced an additional complication: what they chose to call the "manifestation of casting", sometimes referred to as "the light show." Although it's not formally defined in the rules, the idea is that whenever you cast a spell there will be some kind of obvious effect at the moment the spell goes off, even if the spell does not specify one.
For example, Mage Armor does not specify any visual effect. In fact, the spell specifies that it is "invisible but tangible." However, it might have a manifestation of casting which consists of a ghostly set of plates swirling up out of nowhere and forming a set of glowing armor around the target, which then fades to invisibility a moment later. Or, more to the point, the eyes of a person targeted with Charm Person might glow violet for a moment as the spell takes hold.
I have mixed feelings about the "manifestation of casting". On the one hand, it's flavorful. You can do a lot of cool things with it in terms of describing magical effects. On the other hand, it makes life as an enchanter much more difficult. It means that in addition to hiding your own casting, you also have to ensure that your target is alone (or not perceptible to anyone else in the area). Otherwise, the sudden glowing-violet-eyes thing is a dead giveaway to all and sundry that something's up with Bob. That's annoying.
Particularly because it appears to have been a ham-fisted kludge of a workaround for their decision to eliminate somatic, verbal, and material components for all occult casting classes, replacing them with "emotion" and "thought" components which are purely internal and thus do not need to be concealed.
On top of all that, they then put in a bunch of feats that you can take in case you want to conceal your spellcasting from someone. The main one is Conceal Spell. It's expensive (in that to make effective use of it you have to max out Bluff AND Sleight of Hand, plus take Deceitful), and complicated (in that any time you use it, any creature you're trying to conceal the spell from gets not just one but two different checks to notice you're casting), and likely to fail (as the target gets a bonus on their checks equal to the spell level you're trying to conceal).
In short, it was never especially easy to conceal a spell as you cast it; and once Occult Adventures came along, it became punitively difficult. Particularly for older classes that still use all of the classical mechanics.
In my own games, I have generally ignored the whole "manifestation of casting" bit for spells that have purely mental effects. Furthermore, if someone has found a way to eliminate the verbal, somatic, and material components, I generally assume that no one will notice them cast the spell. If they've eliminated some of them but not others -- say, no verbal or material components, but they still have a somatic component -- then I allow any observers a Sense Motive check opposed by the caster's Bluff check.
How do you want to adjudicate all this? Take your time -- Teleri's not likely to wildly throw spells at random NPCs for giggles. But sooner or later it's going to come up, and when it does I'd like to know how you want to run it.
By passing a save against one. The target of an enchantment spell who passes their save knows that somebody just tried to do something to their mind. They may not know exactly who or exactly what it would have done -- they'd need a Seducer's Bane to know exactly what's going on -- but they definitely know something's up and can be on their guard or investigate further. I'm fine with this.
With magic. Specifically, Detect Magic, Detect Charm, Greater Detect Magic, Enchantment Sight, and Detect Demon (if it's a demonic effect). I'm fine with all of these, too.
With Sense Motive. DC 20 for most things, DC 15 for Dominate spells. I'm fine with these too. In general I think the mechanics for detecting enchantment effects just work a lot more smoothly than the mechanics for concealing them.
I might take Subtle Enchantments at some point, but the list of feats I want is loonnng, and I have no idea how many of them I'll be able to get. (Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Silent Spell, Still Spell, probably some others.)
The target of a Sow Thought spell who fails their save has an idea or thought put into their head. It's there permanently (or until the spell is dispelled), and it genuinely feels like the target's own thought. Okay so far.
I've generally run it such that when a thought is put into your head, it's not there constantly. Rather, it surfaces when it's relevant. For example, suppose an ill-intentioned enchanter got access to a young princess, and used Sow Thought to give her this thought: Daddy doesn't really love me, because he wanted a son. That thought would surface in her head when she thought about her father; or when she saw him; or when she thought about being loved. So it'd probably come up reasonably often. But it would not be running through her head when she was doing something totally unrelated. Eating a bowl of ice cream would not trigger the thought.
You could potentially use this spell for a short-term effect. I once read about a PC who was stuck inside a locked room with the rest of his party, but the ranger's animal companion was outside, so he used Sow Thought to give it the thought I need to break down this door, which it proceeded to do.
However, I'm inclined to think that it's more useful (and much more powerful) over the long term. To return to the princess from the first example, suppose she grew up with the thought Daddy doesn't really love me, because he wanted a son tumbling through her head every time she saw her father. That would change her. She might grow to hate her father for the injustice of it -- he should love her, it wasn't her fault she was not born male! Or it might lead her to desperately seek the affection she believes she doesn't have by pursuing increasingly masculine pursuits, thus ruining her relationship with her mother who values more feminine accomplishments. Over time, she would become a completely different person than she might otherwise have been. Even if the spell was eventually removed, she might not change -- still reflexively thinking that thought even without magical enforcement. Or removing it might utterly undermine her concept of herself, rendering her a mental wreck as she tries to reevaluate what she thought was a fundamental truth of her life but turned out to be a poisonous fiction poured into her mind as a child.
Teleri is lawful good, and will not be doing anything so nefarious. But I'm interested to see how the spell could be used for good purposes. With a little time it could be used to influence unscrupulous polluters into cleaning up their act, for example.
Anyway, I just wanted to explain how I think the spell works. If you've got a different idea, let me know, so I'll know how it'll work in this world.
I'm pretty well agreed eith what you're saying here. I don't play with those "manifestations" either, except for enjoyable description. Regarding very components, I would say the volume must be conversational with distance/perception modifiers applying. So base DC 10 +1/10 ft. Now just because someone heard you say somatic components, that doesn't mean they know the significance or even paid attention. I'd allow bluff or appropriate perform to pass them off as something else.
Agreed on sow thought.
Sigh. It's always great getting ninja'd by the GM.
Fortunately I know exactly what Teleri would do in this instance -- she'd continue with what she was going to do anyway, regardless of the plot hook. She plays by the rules, and that means that she can't go investigate anything before she's been formally hired on to do so.
Haha. Awesome, Teleri.
FYI, I'm tracking XP numerically as i like the sense of the crawl towards improvement and power. Small successes towards a reasonable goal are rewarded 1/40 the XP the party needs to level on normal track, which is added to the party pool which only had to hit fast track. So far Ives' and Teleri's investigations each earn 100 XP.
Teleri's going to be peeved, but I am 100% okay with this. ^_^
Oh, but Irish as Druidic -- ergh! I'm using Irish as Sylvan in my other game. I'll have to keep them straight now ...
Ah, but see, if Teleri says something in Sylvan I have to remember not to use Irish, because that's Druidic in this game.
Thanks! The orthography is pretty distinctive.
Will, you did your master's in England, yes? Also, language is relatively in your wheelhouse.
I did my first MA in England, yes. The next two were both in Texas.
And yes. Having formally studied Spanish, Latin, Old English, Middle English, Middle Egyptian, and bits and pieces of Old Norse and Irish, I'd say I've got a passing familiarity with languages. Certainly the sorts most likely to show up in fantasy settings, at least!
Very useful! We enjoyed your familiarity with Middle Egyptian at Gencon! XD
I'm already really enjoying both of your characters. Teleri is so young and so determined to prove herself! And Ives is so brilliantly naive but is ready to solve all the worlds problems.
Edit: I'm currently very annoyed by two site issues: A. I can't edit campaign info. B. My own posts often don't show up to me until significantly later. I'll have to come around to this preview business.
Yes. Paizo's site has many unfortunate deficiencies.
Just a heads-up -- I'm probably not going to be able to post much today. It's election day, and I volunteered to help get out the vote for a candidate in my area, so I'm going to be out knocking on doors pretty much until the polls close or my feet give out, whichever comes first.
Good for you! Thanks for letting us know.
I'm enjoying this. We have two characters from vastly, hugely different backgrounds, each of whom is trapped their own preconceived notions one way or another. Teleri thinks plant boy is crazy, and Ives thinks anyone from the town is bad, and anyone from the city is worse. Yet they're both basically well-intentioned. The setup is ripe for drama.
Question about handling XP: are we tracking separate XP pools for Teleri and Ives, or are all the XP awards to the group? Ives is currently fighting a frog by himself, to which Teleri contributed nothing, so if you wanted to give XP to him alone that would be fine.
I'm also greatly enjoying the two characters. We'll see if I can ever get you two to stick together! XD But it makes perfect sense IC. You're near opposites in terms of background.
I often track XP by individual to encourage everyone to participate. But I have no concerns about whether or not you two will be fully engaged so I'm simply tracking the group's XP. That's why it will take 2,600 xp for you to hit level 2. I wouldn't normally award xp twice for the same monster but there was no intent to farm this frog for XP so it's fine.
On a side note, many thanks to Historical Honey for her page on how to dress like a Georgian. It was most helpful in putting together a description of Teleri's courtier's outfit.
You know, this would be a rough world to live in if you wanted to eat ethically. All the plants seem to have pretty advanced consciousnesses, and the animals are likely similar.
So the only way to eat without killing intelligent life is photosynthesis.
Well the trees are a bit more advanced than a moss, for example. But yeah! XD
Sorry it took me so long to post today, I've been a bit preoccupied -- my father suffered a rather bad accident last night and has been hospitalized. He's probably on the operating table right now as a matter of fact. So I've been spending a lot of time on the phone with family members.
So sorry to hear that, Will! I hope your father and family are ok.
He passed out at the top of the stairs and fell backwards down the whole flight. He has a concussion and some intra-cranial bleeding, and he snapped his left femur just where it meets the knee cap, which is a terrible place for a break. The doctors aren't worried about the concussion. They're doing lots of tests to figure out why he passed out, and the surgery is for the leg. It'll probably be fine, but he's in for a looooong recovery with a lot of physical therapy.
Yikes... That is scary and painful indeed... So sorry to hear that.
XD Will, that's a lot of family background in "red pencil"! I'll make sure not to request such a terror feature.
You know, I think child labor is so much a part of Teleri's world that she doesn't have any inherent objection to the practice. All those factories in Dinas Diwydiant full of children running machines -- it's just how things are. It's just part of life to her.
She may frown on unsafe working conditions, but the worker's age is not a huge concern for her.
Yes I think that makes perfect sense for Teleri.
200 xp to the party for completing this section of the first chapter but there's still the main plot left. :)
This is a Smythe, an NPC in a continuing homebrew game where Will and I started gaming together. He's a pompous, insecure, authoritative, and ineffective leader of the city watch. His appearance pretty much says it all.
Phew. I got a little twitchy at that brief site outage. If the site were to go down for longer, I would invite you both to a discord channel since it works just fine for these purposes and Mustache and I are already familiar with that platform. Works on browser or mobile app.
Okay, so, Diplomacy and Intimidate are mechanics designed to get someone to do something. That's fine for NPCs; but I dislike using them on PCs, because it can easily lead to situations where one player is coercing another. No player should have to do something they don't want to just because somebody had a high Intimidate modifier and rolled well. Diplomacy is less overt, but it boils down to the same thing.
I believe social interactions between PCs should be resolved with role play, leaving each player firmly in control of their PC's actions and thoughts. Hence, although Diplomacy is pretty much Teleri's go-to skill, she's never rolled a Diplomacy check against Ives. And, as long as he is a PC, she won't.
I go back and forth on Bluff. It can sometimes be coercive. For example, suppose one player has metagame knowledge that he wants to act on, but needs to learn it in-character first; and another player who knows the relevant info bluffs him. In that case, one player has denied the other the ability to do what they want with their character by denying them the in-game justification, which can be very frustrating.
On the other hand, sometimes you need an in-game mechanic to govern metagame knowledge of the PCs about one another. Maybe one PC has a deep dark secret that everyone at the table knows out of character, but none of them know in character. In cases like those, PC vs PC bluffing seems reasonable.
In the case of Teleri and Ives' current interaction, I reached for the "pass a secret message" mechanic because Teleri has to be pressed pretty hard before she'll do something as rude as criticizing someone's manners to their face, and it seemed to fit. In retrospect, perhaps it would have been better to just put the info in a spoiler with a Sense Motive DC.
Anyway, I'm not upset or anything. There's no particular reason either of you would have known my stance on this particular issue. But good communication is key to RPGs. Now that it's come up, I thought I'd make sure you know where I stand on the issue.
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I think diplomacy rolls against other PCs aren't meant to coerce at all... it's more of a wink and nod fun way of using the game mechanics to make an argument. And no matter the roll, the other PC is clearly allowed to do whatever they want. Same with your bluff check. I saw it as a fun way to pass a secret message, but really Ives should have the freedom to think what he wants whether you had a good roll or not. In this case I agreed that he would be clueless. Actually even if you had a good roll he would have been clueless. He has no mental context for your sense of decorum.
It is totally up to you if you listen to Ives argument or not.
I agree with what is being said. PCs do not coerce other PCs. They can conceal things with bluff for good story reasons that don't subvert the agency of another. Diplomacy rolls toward another player can give them something to react to in their description of why and how they agree with the very convincing player or how they stubbornly refuse because they strongly believe something.
I'm in favor of how everyone handled things but it's good to have an understanding in place in case a greyer situation comes up.
I just played a game of Scythe (digital edition) against some bots. I've been naming the bots in alphabetical order and came to S and T today, so I played against Silissa and Teleri.
Teleri beat me 111 to 110. XD
But she was very proper about it. I hardly minded at all!
Hahaha. Awesome. What is Scythe?
This is essentially a skills challenge/exploration puzzle with juvenile stirges to make it more interesting.
Scythe is a euro-style worker placement board game. Players take the roles of various vaguely eastern european factions -- Polania, Nordic, Rusviet, Crimea -- contending with one another. There are a bunch of ways to get points, each faction has a special ability, and there's a bit of direct interaction (you can go fight the other players) but most of the key to the game is making efficient use of the actions at your disposal, which vary depending on which player mat you've got. It's pretty think-y.
As with many of the heavier board games, the digital edition is more fun because it takes care of a lot of the mental overhead you would otherwise spend on remembering things like movement rules, doing math, and so on.
And I'm enjoying the challenge here, even if Teleri isn't. Hopping between islands in a swamp full of blood sucking insects is not her idea of a good time.
RE maps: yes, there's a map. Click the "maps" link in the GM's stats line.
Sounds like an interesting game!
And I'm glad Teleri doesn't enjoy swamps and stirges. I'd be very confused about her character concept if she did! XD
No worries, Ives. I forgot to move the slide up to the top at first.
Ives Tunnbindare