When you think of THE tyrant, from history, literature, mythology, or gaming, who do you think of? Why? Multiple entires and discussion, much appreciated.
(Please no Godwinning. For me, the unnamed figure probably belongs to another archetype more properly than to that of the tyrant, simply.)
Stalin. You know, there should be some sort of internet law that states when people are activly trying to avoid invoking Godwin they will instead inevitably compare their opponent to Stalin.
::silently stalks this thread::
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I'd have a list. Ancient tyrants would include Nero, Xerxes I, the unnamed Exodus pharaoh, Herod (either Antipas or The Great, they were both pretty bad). More modern tyrants I'd say Stalin, Kim Il Sung, and Kim Jong Il. Those Korean tyrants have it down to a science.
Mao? Mussolini? Cromwell? Maximilien Robespierre? What about instances of mob rule? The Committee of Public Safety? The Revolutionary Tribunal?
What about people with better reputations who were accused, rightly or wrongly, of tyranny? Julius Caesar, Abraham Lincoln?
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Abraham Lincoln?
I started to say Lincoln but if you say Lincoln was a tyrant people tend to assume you're racist and support slavery. I think he was a tyrant not for those reasons but because I think the way the federal system was set up was as a formal agreement between sovereign states, thus the states had the sovereign right to secede. Imagine if Spain decided that it didn't want to be part of the EU anymore, and the EU responded by invading, and you'll have an idea of what I'm getting at.
Mao? Maybe. Communist revolutions have tended to be pretty harsh to anyone who didn't support them. IDK enough about Mussolini to judge, but that's slipping into Godwin territory. Cromwell was certainly strict and Puritanical, but I don't think his methods of rule were really inconsistent with any other English ruler. Robespierre? Tyrant. The French Revolutionaries? Tyrants for sure, the classic example of tyranny of the majority.
I should add Saddam Hussein as another great modern example of a tyrant. Even Iraqis who want the US out of Iraq are glad we got rid of that guy for them.
Genghis Khan. Attila The Hun. Alexander The Great.
Antiochus Epiphanes IV
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My list would include:
Julius Caesar (pretty classic example)
Constantine (not for religion, but what he did to his own family)
Empress Irene (8th century... iconclasm anyone?)
Charlemagne (bloody verdict of verdun)
Justinian (Its amazing what a bright you fellow can turn into with proper motivation)
Ivan the Terrible
Just to name a few.
Qin/Shi Huangdi can't be left off the list.
Napoleon?
Anybody have any thoughts on the relationship between demagoguery and tyranny?
Then, there are figures associated with tyranny that weren't rulers themselves: Machiavelli, Thomas Hobbes.
I'm supprised no one mentioned Vlad Tepes.
Pol Pot, at least for EVUL tyrant.
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DEFINITION OF TYRANNY: “The tyrant terrifies his subjects. Spying balefully on the world from his strongly fortified palace, as sensitive to approaching prey or predators as a spider delicately balanced at the centre of a web, he dominates the life of all around him. He takes credit for the achievements of nobler men who spend their substance on civic projects, like great churches and other fine buildings. Entertaining the ambassadors of foreign powers at his own table, he makes decisions that affect the well-being of all of his subjects without consulting anyone except his favorites. He turns his entire state into a machine for his own profit and that of a few friends. And he does not shrink from robbing wealthy men of their possessions or pure young women of their virtue. All threats to his sole authority he resists with absolute ferocity.”
- “Treatise on the Government of Florence” by Friar Girolamo Savonarola
Idi Amin, Henry the VIII, Philip the IV of France, Torquemada, Leopold II of Belgium, Saddam Hussein.
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DEFINITION OF TYRANNY: “The tyrant terrifies his subjects. Spying balefully on the world from his strongly fortified palace, as sensitive to approaching prey or predators as a spider delicately balanced at the centre of a web, he dominates the life of all around him. He takes credit for the achievements of nobler men who spend their substance on civic projects, like great churches and other fine buildings. Entertaining the ambassadors of foreign powers at his own table, he makes decisions that affect the well-being of all of his subjects without consulting anyone except his favorites. He turns his entire state into a machine for his own profit and that of a few friends. And he does not shrink from robbing wealthy men of their possessions or pure young women of their virtue. All threats to his sole authority he resists with absolute ferocity.”
- “Treatise on the Government of Florence” by Friar Girolamo Savonarola
This sounds like Kim Il Sung's daily to-do list.
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When you think of THE tyrant, from history, literature, mythology, or gaming, who do you think of? Why? Multiple entires and discussion, much appreciated.
(Please no Godwinning. For me, the unnamed figure probably belongs to another archetype more properly than to that of the tyrant, simply.)
The Judeo-Christian god. He requires sacrifices in his name, allowed his son to be slaughtered to further his cause and uses an eternity of torture to punish dissenters. Hmm...on second thought maybe he's CE?
Just from one period of Rome's history we have
Marius
Sulla..(the rolemodel for those who followed him)
Such as...
Pompey
Octavian/Augustus(I had to love the way they played him in 'Rome' as a complete little s+#%)
Tiberius
Caligula( The epitome of the mad dictator)
Nero
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The Judeo-Christian god. He requires sacrifices in his name, allowed his son to be slaughtered to further his cause and uses an eternity of torture to punish dissenters. Hmm...on second thought maybe he's CE?When you think of THE tyrant, from history, literature, mythology, or gaming, who do you think of? Why? Multiple entires and discussion, much appreciated.
(Please no Godwinning. For me, the unnamed figure probably belongs to another archetype more properly than to that of the tyrant, simply.)
Woo hoo, here we go again.
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Woo hoo, here we go again.The Judeo-Christian god. He requires sacrifices in his name, allowed his son to be slaughtered to further his cause and uses an eternity of torture to punish dissenters. Hmm...on second thought maybe he's CE?When you think of THE tyrant, from history, literature, mythology, or gaming, who do you think of? Why? Multiple entires and discussion, much appreciated.
(Please no Godwinning. For me, the unnamed figure probably belongs to another archetype more properly than to that of the tyrant, simply.)
I'm sorry did i offend by paraphrasing the bible?
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I'm sorry did i offend by paraphrasing the bible?Woo hoo, here we go again.The Judeo-Christian god. He requires sacrifices in his name, allowed his son to be slaughtered to further his cause and uses an eternity of torture to punish dissenters. Hmm...on second thought maybe he's CE?When you think of THE tyrant, from history, literature, mythology, or gaming, who do you think of? Why? Multiple entires and discussion, much appreciated.
(Please no Godwinning. For me, the unnamed figure probably belongs to another archetype more properly than to that of the tyrant, simply.)
Maybe people would like one thread to go by without it turning into a religious debate.
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Maybe people would like one thread to go by without it turning into a religious debate.I'm sorry did i offend by paraphrasing the bible?Woo hoo, here we go again.The Judeo-Christian god. He requires sacrifices in his name, allowed his son to be slaughtered to further his cause and uses an eternity of torture to punish dissenters. Hmm...on second thought maybe he's CE?When you think of THE tyrant, from history, literature, mythology, or gaming, who do you think of? Why? Multiple entires and discussion, much appreciated.
(Please no Godwinning. For me, the unnamed figure probably belongs to another archetype more properly than to that of the tyrant, simply.)
fair nuff...
Stalin, Mao, Hirohito, Mussolini, Castro, Genghis Khan ...
On History Television (Canada's equivalent of The History Channel) they've been broadcasting a series called Ancients Behaving Badly taking a look at various ancient tyrants:
In order: Caligula, Attila the Hun, Julius Caesar, Hannibal, Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great, Nero and Cleopatra thus far.
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Here's a relevant proposition:
Conqueror =/= tyrant.
To start discussion: At least not necessarily. Alexander, who generally kept local power structures intact, was pretty benevolent compared to, say, Genghis Khan, who might kill EVERYBODY in an entire city just to prove a point. Certainly, many conquerors were tyrants.
Moreover, I think it's possible to conquer in order to remove a tyrant. In fact, I've made a career out of it.
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Historically, I'd add the Persians Xerxes and Darius to the list.
I think some of the best literary tyrants are Shakespeare's:
Macbeth
Lear
Claudius (from Hamlet)And with a very different feel, but still, I think, a tyrant: the Queen of Hearts
Why Lear? He was an authoritarian father, but I don't recall any behavior on his part that was beyond the norm for a monarch in regards to his ruling style.
Here's a relevant proposition:
Conqueror =/= tyrant.
To start discussion: At least not necessarily. Alexander, who generally kept local power structures intact, was pretty benevolent compared to, say, Genghis Khan, who might kill EVERYBODY in an entire city just to prove a point. Certainly, many conquerors were tyrants.
Moreover, I think it's possible to conquer in order to remove a tyrant. In fact, I've made a career out of it.
Fair enough.
Can’t believe this thread’s been up over 24 hours on an RPG site and no one has mentioned Sauron.
Shame.
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Why Lear? He was an authoritarian father, but I don't recall any behavior on his part that was beyond the norm for a monarch in regards to his ruling style.Historically, I'd add the Persians Xerxes and Darius to the list.
I think some of the best literary tyrants are Shakespeare's:
Macbeth
Lear
Claudius (from Hamlet)And with a very different feel, but still, I think, a tyrant: the Queen of Hearts
I guess I would consider him a tyrannical father. On a small, familial scale he tries to satisfy his pride/whims and punishes those who won't give him what he wants. The scene where he curses Goneril with barrenness when she will not allow him to carouse with his 100 followers in her court comes particularly to mind. I suppose he isn't ultimately a very successful tyrant, as his daughters clearly have more power over him than vice versa, but he exhibits toward his family tyrannical behavior (at least, according to my inner feeling for tyranny).
Since he abdicates at the beginning, we don't get a really good idea of how he ruled as a monarch, but I would think that he ruled his kingdom much the same way he attempts to rule his family. At least, IMO it's a more powerful play if we get the feeling that his extension of authority over his daughters is a remnant of the power he once held as king.
What about the aliens in "Childhood's End?" [Can't recall if they had a name; it's been way too long since I read it.] Is forcibly protecting people from their own worst nature tyranny?
Thanks for getting this thread back on track, Paizans. My brain continues to soak in your marinade.
My guess is most tyrants offered justifications for what they did--at least to themselves.
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This sounds like Kim Il Sung's daily to-do list.DEFINITION OF TYRANNY: “The tyrant terrifies his subjects. Spying balefully on the world from his strongly fortified palace, as sensitive to approaching prey or predators as a spider delicately balanced at the centre of a web, he dominates the life of all around him. He takes credit for the achievements of nobler men who spend their substance on civic projects, like great churches and other fine buildings. Entertaining the ambassadors of foreign powers at his own table, he makes decisions that affect the well-being of all of his subjects without consulting anyone except his favorites. He turns his entire state into a machine for his own profit and that of a few friends. And he does not shrink from robbing wealthy men of their possessions or pure young women of their virtue. All threats to his sole authority he resists with absolute ferocity.”
- “Treatise on the Government of Florence” by Friar Girolamo Savonarola
It sounds like US President George W. Bush...good thing My Temporal Surveilance unit assassinated him at the Age of 12.
You air breathers...ever time some one subjugates you you call tyrannt.
What about all the good these people did. Stabilizing failing economies and broken countries; Leading armies to glory and greatness. When's the last time a hero rose that there wasn't some "tyrannt" opressing someone.
You should thank your tyrannt for oppressing you. No one else cared enough to create the need for heroes for you. You pack of ingrates.
People starve all the time but no one cares until they's someone to blame and suddenly "it's all get that guy he's starving the starving peasants."
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As I understand the word, 'tyrant' means an illegitimate ruler who uses his position of power to enrich himself at the cost of his people.
Many people who have the word 'tyrant' thrown at them gained their positions quite legitimately, and, no matter how horrific their actions may have been in the eyes of every other nation on the planet, improved conditions for their own people, which, in many cases, is what a ruler is appointed to do by a selfish electorate.
It shouldn't be hard to find figures in history (or literature) who left their nations in rags, fantastically richer than they were when they started and there are tons of leaders who abused their positions (and their people) for self-enrichment, and yet were legitimate rulers, either by inheritance, people's revolution or popular election.
Casts resurrection on thread
Yeah, I keep rereading and mulling, but so far, I haven't found the figure to inspire me.
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I'd say that if you truly want to understand tyranny, you have to dig into these individual cases more. A tyrant might be a poor ruler, or an extremely effective ruler, but in either case he tramples the rights and liberties of his subjects. In fact, I think that is perhaps the very definition of a tyrant: a ruler who has power over his subjects (de facto if not necessarily de jure), nor does he respect their rights nor act in their best interests.
I'm taking a closer look at the Cronos myth in this regard.
Then, there are figures associated with tyranny that weren't rulers themselves: Machiavelli, Thomas Hobbes.Justification of tyranny through coercive forces by decree that human nature is inherently a bad thing ain't cool, man. >;P
hehehe
Just thought I'd open a can of worms.
Machiavelli was not a proponent of tyranny. He was a proponent of stable, efficient, and effective governance that would be occasionally forced to brutality for the overall health of the state. Furthermore, he most directly urged heads of state to make sure that any reforms and brutality should be enacted at the beginning of their rule so as to avoid both encouraging hate later on as well as to prevent necessary systematic brutality over a period of time.
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Machiavelli was not a proponent of tyranny. He was a proponent of stable, efficient, and effective governance that would be occasionally forced to brutality for the overall health of the state. Furthermore, he most directly urged heads of state to make sure that any reforms and brutality should be enacted at the beginning of their rule so as to avoid both encouraging hate later on as well as to prevent necessary systematic brutality over a period of time.
Then, there are figures associated with tyranny that weren't rulers themselves: Machiavelli, Thomas Hobbes.Justification of tyranny through coercive forces by decree that human nature is inherently a bad thing ain't cool, man. >;P
hehehe
Just thought I'd open a can of worms.
That was mostly in reference to Thomas Hobbes... not Machiavelli. Leviathan is as Leviathan does.