Gunslinger Build and DPR Scaling

For the sake of comparison this is an elite array Gunslinger and some sample DPR numbers.

Str-13
Dex-17(15+2 Racial)
Con-12
Int-10
Wis-14
Cha-8

This is a shooter first and foremost, I'm pretty much assuming two pistol ranged attacks or rapier + pistol. Swapping Strength with Int should be easy enough though. I'm going with TWF Pistols

Feats
1st-Rapid Reload
Racial- Lightning Reload
3rd- TWF
4th- Point Blank Shot
5th- Weapon Focus: Pistol
7th- Deadly Aim
8th- Vital Strike
9th- Weapon Specialization
11th-Signature Deed: Lightning Reload
12th- Greater Weapon Focus
13th- Greater Weapon Specialization
15th- Improved Vital Strike
16th - Penetrating Strike
17th - Greater Vital Strike
19th - Greater Penetrating Strike
20th - Disrupting Shot

Yikes, gunslinger is feat intensive like crazy. Not sure if this is the optimum feat selection (especially if I'm taking them in the optimum order). I'm also assuming that any GM in their right mind will houserule quick draw free action spam out of existence.

1st level Attack Bonus- +4 (BAB +1, Dex +3)
5th level Attack Bonus- +12 (BAB +5, Gun Training +1, Dex +4, Enhancement +1, Feat + 1/+2 if PB)
10th level Attack Bonus- +20 (BAB +10, Gun Training +1, Dex +5, Enhancement +3, Feat +1/+2 if PB)
15th level Attack Bonus- +30 (BAB +15, Gun Training +1, Dex +7, Enhancement +5, Feat +2/+3 if PB)
20th level Attack Bonus + (BAB +20, Gun Training +1, Dex + 9, Enhancement +5, Feat +2/+3 if PB)

Damage: Basically since the gunslinger is using Ranged Touch Attacks and has a ridiculous BAB she's going to hit with attacks. I'm going to assume that the gunslinger is doing the John Woo guns akimbo school of shooting as well. I'm also not adding any average damage from frost, flaming, holy, etc.

1st level Average Damage- d6 (3.5)
5th level Average Damage (Single Attack)- d6 +5 (+6 if PB) (8.5)
10th level Average Damage (Single Attack)- 2d6 + 10 (+11 if PB) (17)
15th level Average Damage (Single Attack) - 3d6 + 16 (+17 if PB) (26.5)
20th level Average Damage (Single Attack)- 4d6 +18 (+19 if PB) (32)

1st level Full Attack Damage- d6 x2 (7)
5th level Full Attack Damage- (d6 +5) x2 (17)
10th level Full Attack Damage- (d6 +10) x2 (27)
15th level Full Attack Damage- (d6 + 16) x2 (39)
20th level Full Attack Damage- (d6 +18) x2 (43)

with Lightning Reload (free usage with Signature Deed at level 11)

10th level Full Attack Damage- (d6+10) x3 (40.5)
15th level Full Attack Damage- (d6 +16) x4 (78)
20th level Full Attack Damage- (d6 +18) x5 (107.5)

Hrmm, Vital Strike clearly isn't going to work with this build.

If I replace Vital Strike with Improved TWF at 8th and Greater TWF at 12th (postponing feats by one selection) I can generate the following.

10th level Full Attack Damage- (d6+10) x 4 (54)- Requires 2 grit points
15th level Full Attack Damage- (d6 +16) x 6 (117)-Requires spamming lightning reload on two guns
20th level Full Attack Damage- (d6 +18) x 7 (150.5)- Requires spamming lightning reload on two guns.

Haste and Bonus damage adders should help with DPR. I'm also not factoring in any inherent bonuses from manuals or wishes as those tend to show up late if at all.

Basically unless the capacity on guns is changed to allow full attacks I think the only viable build strategy is predicated on using grit points to fuel Lightning Reload like crazy.

Great breakdown, and quite indicative of some balance quirks with the class. I'd like to point out one omission though - it seems your damage is calculated on Deadly Aim, Enhancement, and Point-Blank (for instance, the 20th level average damage is +18 - I see Deadly Aim at that point is -6/+12, enhancement you've marked down +5, and then Point-Blank for the 18th point of damage). But Gunslingers after 5th level can add their dexterity modifier to damage as per Gun Training, making these numbers an understatement of their power.

Let me know if I'm reading your numbers incorrectly.

Crap I forgot to add Deadly Aim to those numbers.

Lightning Reload + TWF Chain + Deadly Aim numbers

10th level Full Attack- (d6+13)x4 (66)
15th level Full Attack- (d6+20)x6 (141)
20th level Full Attack- (d6+24)x7 (192.5)

I'm tempted to try to make a Gunslinger 11/ Rogue 9 in order to see if the DPR goes up significantly.

I agree with the above numbers.

I would definitely expect to see 2, 3, or higher # barreled weapons in the final book, as well as some kind of Revolver or Magazine-Fed weapon also.

Thanks for doing up the maths!

Crap I forgot to add Deadly Aim to those numbers.

Lightning Reload + TWF Chain + Deadly Aim numbers

10th level Full Attack- (d6+13)x4 (66)
15th level Full Attack- (d6+20)x6 (141)
20th level Full Attack- (d6+24)x7 (192.5)

I'm tempted to try to make a Gunslinger 11/ Rogue 9 in order to see if the DPR goes up significantly.

Well, you can't forget that you can't add Deadly Aim damage when you are using touch AC as your target:

Developer Weighing In

Also, d6's? Unless you're small, a pistol does a d8...

Ah, I see now that I was forgetting Specialization.

vuron wrote:

Crap I forgot to add Deadly Aim to those numbers.

Lightning Reload + TWF Chain + Deadly Aim numbers

10th level Full Attack- (d6+13)x4 (66)
15th level Full Attack- (d6+20)x6 (141)
20th level Full Attack- (d6+24)x7 (192.5)

I'm tempted to try to make a Gunslinger 11/ Rogue 9 in order to see if the DPR goes up significantly.

Well, you can't forget that you can't add Deadly Aim damage when you are using touch AC as your target:

Developer Weighing In

Also, d6's? Unless you're small, a pistol does a d8...

Good catch on the deadly aim incompatibility :(

Apparently I also can't read weapon damage tables correctly ;)

Good catch on the deadly aim incompatibility :(

Hopefully, they do go "oops, change this..." and make them work together, as otherwise it just sucks. Not to mention it makes ZERO sense, as you'll have any sort of "sniper" constantly trying to keep his target in the second range increment, as if they get in the first (getting closer, and logically more easy to hit in the tender bits) range increment, and your damage takes a nosedive.

vuron wrote:

Good catch on the deadly aim incompatibility :(

Hopefully, they do go "oops, change this..." and make them work together, as otherwise it just sucks. Not to mention it makes ZERO sense, as you'll have any sort of "sniper" constantly trying to keep his target in the second range increment, as if they get in the first (getting closer, and logically more easy to hit in the tender bits) range increment, and your damage takes a nosedive.

Deadly Aim being incompatible with firearm touch attacks is definitely frustrating and nonsensical.

Hopefully they will say that PB firearms are a ranged attack that just happens to use Ranged Touch ACs as the target DC. That way you can get around the wording of Deadly Aim without having to errata that feat.

Two Weapon Fighting Doesnt Work Either neither are light weapons

Two Weapon Fighting Doesnt Work Either neither are light weapons

You can fight with 2 one-handed weapons you just use a -4/-4 on your to hit with the attacks.

Being that hopefully you are in the PB range band in order to ranged touch the penalty to hit is pretty much negated by your ridiculously high BAB and Dex bonuses.

At low levels it's not very viable but honestly the actual monetary cost of fighting with pistols at low level makes them non-viable.

If the gunslinger stays in his current state then I would suggest reducing the minimum level for legendary deed to 6th so that a gunslinger can start using lightning reload at 6th level.

Otherwise the levels from 6th to 11th are going to be very very painful.

I found that magical ammunition with lots of mundane guns as opposed to a magical gun with mundane ammunition worked better for me (assuming gun costs come down) -- granted I had to pick up after myself at the end of each fight but it did let me get my shots off at least.

Yeah Deadly Aim is worthless

I was thinking hell its only within 20 feet it doesnt work but it puts you at minus 8 with the two weapon fighting guess in my build I will use Point Blank Master

I found that magical ammunition with lots of mundane guns as opposed to a magical gun with mundane ammunition worked better for me (assuming gun costs come down) -- granted I had to pick up after myself at the end of each fight but it did let me get my shots off at least.

Abusing the free action economy with quick draw does allow you to generate the minimum number of attacks necessary to meet DPR minimums for a martial character but honestly it doesn't pass the smell test. Many DMs will put a cap on free actions per round and even if they didn't carrying dozens of pistols in order to maintain DPR looks stupid.

I can stand a break in verisimilitude but stupid effects? No deal.

Honestly the game either needs a cheap method for reloading barrels during the round or it needs high capacity guns (or both).

6 shot revolvers + Lightning reload would help simulate a Roland Deschain type character.

Yeah I found that allowing multibarrel guns with the quick draw action stuff was just the right mix to help with verisimilitude without causing it to go over the top.

I'm not too married to the touch attack thing either -- we dropped it at our table.