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Ok, that's just dumb. When you are born of two half-orc or one human and one orc, or one human and one half-orc, or one half-orc and one orc (I think that about covers it), you are born a HALF-ORC!
You don't grow up and learn how to become a half-orc.
This goes for half-elves as well!
Straighten this out. Eliminate that stupid (yep, I said stupid) half-breed by feat idea and flesh out these races.
Here's a thought. Add some originality. There's no reason you could not become a half-dwarf, half-gnome, or half-goblin either.
Please fix this. It was the very first eye-catcher in the rules and it's a BIGGIE!
I'd like to add onto Corwin Icewolf's post - that Heritage Feats not only must heritage feats be taken at one, but characters can only have one Heritage feat...
The only argument I can see with staticPF's post is that Heritage Feats can technically be taken twice - but that can easily be explained that your heritage developed and more genes begin to activate.
Chief Technical Officer
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Here's a thought. Add some originality. There's no reason you could not become a half-dwarf, half-gnome, or half-goblin either.
Part of the point here is that you can now do just that. See this blog, especially the next-to-last paragraph.
(But the fact that we can do a thing doesn't mean that the main rulebook is the best place for it.)
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You don't get feats at birth. You get them when yourcharacter becomes level one. That means, that your character had to become a human first, grow up and become an adventurer, and THEN learn how to become a half-orc.
Or half-elf.
No other race has to pay for being the race they are by spending a feat to become that race.
Does a Dwarf take a Dwarf feat to become a Dwarf? No.
Does an Elf, a Goblin, a Halfling? No.
The half-breeds are being penalized for having a mixed heritage.
Basically, someone got lazy and couldn't come up with enough initial feats to create s complete race, so they dreamed up this bonehead idea to beat a deadline.
Half-Orc only get one ancestry feat, because the other four are technically Orc feats, and Half-elves only two. All other races get ten to choose from, except humans who get only nine actual choices (unless you're suggesting a half-orc-elf), and that last choice between which half-breed you want to be, actually reduces humans to eight overall.
Just yo make sure you understand, let me quote from the book:
"You can create a half-elf [half-orc] character by selecting the Half-Elf [Half-Orc] human ancestry feat at 1st level."
This goes on to state:
"This gives you access to elf and half-orc [orc and half-orc] ancestry feats..."
We already know these breeds have limited feats to choose from. The argument will, undoubtedly, be made that this will open the Elf and Orc feats as well, but their are only four Orc feats so big deal, and the Elves don't have to jump through these hoops to get them in the first place. Also, why make a half-elf so you can pick from elf or human lists only. Both of these half-breed races have a long and full heritage in fantasy literature and roleplay. Why are they not entitled to have their own feats?
And since you brought it up, yes, it is also ignorant to have to wait until level five to be able to see through the eyes you've had since birth. Eyes tend to get worse with age, not better.
Here's a thought. Add some originality. There's no reason you could not become a half-dwarf, half-gnome, or half-goblin either.Part of the point here is that you can now do just that. See this blog, especially the next-to-last paragraph.
(But the fact that we can do a thing doesn't mean that the main rulebook is the best place for it.)
I was going to say, "What blog, but when I opened the reply window it became visible. I will look at it, but is it official?
And yes, the core rulebook is the best place for it. Many of us grow weary of paying extra money later for material that could, and should, have been in the core from the start.
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Hey, staticPF, there is actually a conversation going on about this very topic in this thread here if you are interested. :)
Your thread gets the cool factor, though, because you got Vic Wertz to post on yours haha.
Yes, the blog post is definitely official. Jason Bulmahn is the Director of Game Design for Pathfinder. He's about as official as you get haha.
I do agree with you, though, that I dearly wish my beloved Half-Elves and Half-Orcs received a more attentive treatment than simply taking a feat as a Human to be one. It seems punitive and ill-thought, but from reading the blog post, it seems like they are using this as a basis for creating a myriad of other half-races down the line with supplement books (Aasimars and Tieflings are obviously mentioned). It's... interesting I'll agree, but it just doesn't feel right, which is about the weakest argument one could make.
Although I am upset about this treatment, I need to actually roll up a Half-Elf and Half-Orc and play around with them at the table. On paper, though, they look and feel ramrodded to me. I think - for myself - I would be able to swallow this new approach easier if each the Half-Elf and Half-Orc had their own dedicated pages in the Playtest Rulebook like all the other races do rather than being relegated to a footnote on both page 13 (Table 1-1) and 23 (the portraits).
Cheers!
- D.B.
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In addition to my page 13 and page 23 examples, I would like to add that Grimcleaver brought up a good point in the thread I linked above. The Half-Elf and Half-Orc Ancestry Feats are scattered throughout the Human Ancestry Feats, which 1) makes it difficult to navigate and 2) really contributes to the feeling of these two races being diluted into an afterthought (for me). Again, it would be nice if - like in PF1e's Core Rulebook - Humans, Half-Elves and Half-Orcs each got their own dedicated page.
- D.B.
Hey, staticPF, there is actually a conversation going on about this very topic in this thread here if you are interested. :)
Your thread gets the cool factor, though, because you got Vic Wertz to post on yours haha.
Yes, the blog post is definitely official. Jason Bulmahn is the Director of Game Design for Pathfinder. He's about as official as you get haha.
Thanks. Now if I could just get an admin yo move these posts to that thread... lol
@ staticPF: While I understand the frustration you have regarding this, you'll need to remember that this is still just a Play test. Nothing has been set-in-stone. Discussion on why you believe this should be changed would do more good than simply yelling that you don't like it.
Regarding your arguments about how races don't have to take feats to be that race though...:
Dwarves don't need to take a Dwarf feat - but they have to take a feat if they want to have an ancient hatred shared by their race from birth. Otherwise they are just a short human.
Elves don't have to take an Elf feat - but you have to take a feat if you want to be born with a Elf's nimble body or Elf's keen senses. Otherwise they are just a skinny human.
Goblins don't have to take a Goblin feat - but they have to take a feat to be born with razor sharp teeth to bite people with. Otherwise they are just an ugly looking... thing...
While you are correct that your eyes tend to get worse as you age, you've forgotten that not all genes activate at birth. This is why some people can develop certain skills later than others (or develop diseases, but we're talking about the goods of heritage, not the bad). So, in my opinion, it makes sense why some of your genes might activate after you first start adventuring - triggering to you suddenly being able to see in the dark (albeit Black and White).
Also: To answer your concerns about a "Feat tax" - keep in mind that simply taking the Heritage feat returns an approximate 1.5-2 General Feats worth of strength.
I am frustrated that they're removing Half-Elf and Half-Orc as dedicated races, but I think it would make more sense for them to be Heritage templates with the new direction Paizo is going regarding templates. In my (personal and possibly unpopular opinion), it makes more sense to have Half-Race templates, than it does to make rather large number of different races of "Half Humans" or "Human Heritage" races that flooded the first edition of the game.
(Edit) Woops, didn't notice the new posts. Sorry...