I decided NOT to hijack another thread over on rules, so here I am. But I'm responding to a thread over on Rules.
The Monster ability "Grab" IS generally useless unless you have several Grapple Feats/abilities to go with it.
But yes, the ruling that you are threatening for flanking the creature that grapples you makes Grab go from generally useless (slow suicide) to a complete death sentence (fast suicide).
Newbie GM question:
What feats or abilities would you recommend?(I'm now running a lot of monsters with Grab, and it LOOKS spiffy... I suppose that's in a party without precision damage, though.)
Keeping in mind that I consider the Grab ability counts as Improved Grapple for anything that requires Improved Grapple as a prereq then at least some of the following feats are needed.
Greater Grapple
Grabbing Style
Grabbing Master
Rapid GrapplerThere are several others but have to go.
Will do another mail later with the full list.
There about 4 other feats.
Basically it's about using Swift/Immediate, Move and Standard actions + constriction to do damage. And if possible remove the penalties for been in Grapple/Pin. Also to retain the ability to get AOOs
A couple of Class levels in Monk or Brawler is one way of handling it because those 2 Classes have the bonus Class abilities needed to make Grapple work.Otherwise the Monster Grapples.
The Grappled target makes a full attack.
The rest of his party makes a full attack against the monster's reduced AC and then the Monster gets to make a single attack vs the grappled creature...assuming it's still alive.
And off course the Monster gets no AOOs because it has the grappled condition.
Greater Grapple -- assuming that Grab = Improved Grapple.
I'm actually thinking that Grab = Improved & Greater Grapple, since Grab gives you the +4 bonus outright that the two feats provide, and what's actually a better ability to automatically damage the grapplee while also doing things like pinning them or moving with them. Or do I have something wrong here?
Rapid Grappler similarly confuses me. A swift action to make a grapple check on who? Is this how you'd grapple two foes? Obviously, a monster who grapples with its Bite isn't going to be able to take this feat! But one that grapples with two tentacles wants to be able to grapple with each one, each turn.
Grabbing Style sadly requires one of those class features from one or two levels in monk or brawler. Again, does the -4 penalty from using only one empty hand actually apply to a monster? Now, not losing your Dex bonus to AC while pinning a target could be important to some critters. What about monsters who do take the CMB penalty to not gain the grappled condition while grappling a foe? Do they also not lose their Dex bonus to AC while pinning a target?
The other feats in the Grabbing Style chain are so expensive that I think I'll bow out of seriously considering them. At least for the time being, until I get a much more advanced party to throw monsters at!
Maybe... Maybe you are just interpreting Grab more restrictively than I do. Maybe I'm naively interpreting it less restrictively than RAW. But when I look at a Giant Octopus, I see a critter that without any further feats should be able to make a full attack action of a bite at +13 (1d8+5 plus poison), and each of 8 tentacles at +11 (1d4+2 plus grab), meaning that each tentacle can slam into a separate target and grab them -- or maintain a grapple on them -- each turn. I guess the prob here is that maintaining a grapple is a standard action, not a full attack action. In which case, the giant octopus has to take a hefty -20 CMB on those grapples to get the full attack option, resulting in a -1 CMB applied to the dice. < Wince >
And if it needs two tentacles free to pull off each grab without a -4 penalty... But no, I just don't see that!
But it still looks like what I want is a simple monster feat to buy up the critter's CMB for grapples.
Help in sorting this out from the community would be appreciated -- along with further commentary from you, Stephen.
Are you trying to make a monster that makes use of Grappling?
Yes. Or rather, I'm trying to use the many monsters in the Bestiary with the Grab ability.
Oh. I see. Typo in the title, and I can't change it any more. Drat!
In gameplay, grappling functions a lot like save or suck spells. So if you make a hyper-specialized boss it typically ends up with one character getting toasted and then the party gangs up and beats down the boss. And a specialized grappler will toast most PCs CMD, which makes the martial/tank types feel like there defense investments are wasted.
Grap monsters are fairly effective out of the box, just need to ensure the fight is not 5 vs 1. Depending on the party level, try an APL +2 or +3 fight against a group (one for every PC or two PCs) of constrictor snakes, animated objects, or rocs.
Snakes and animated objects just grab, pin, and damage until the characters dies (skip pinning to soft ball the fight, this way a character at least has a fair chance to fight back.). Rocs grab, move (the grapple option) over a cliff and free action drop to deal massive fall damage.
GRAB- As far as Grab goes, the +4 does not mean it has Improved or Greater Grapple. You are just naturally better at "to start and maintain a grapple.". IF you gain Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple (+2 from each), you now have a +8 to start and maintain a grapple, +4 on CMD vs Grapple and can maintain a Grapple as a Move action.
RAPID GRAPPLER- Basically, the extra Grapple check as a Swift action allows you to Maintain a Grapple a 3rd time per round at -5 unless you have already used your Swift action already.
OCTOPUS- If the Octopus can manage to "hold" with his grapples (-20), then it could continue to attempt to grapple other creatures as it does not gain the Grappled condition but would have 1 less Tentacle attack per creature grappled in this manner. Normal Grappling rules does not permit grappling multiple creatures at once.
Best Grappling Action in One Round:
Attack Action with Grab (Standard action)
Initiate Grapple (Free action *Grab*)
Maintain Grapple-Move, Pin, Damage (Move action *Greater Grapple*)
Maintain Grapple-Move, Pin, Damage (Swift action *Rapid Grappler*)
A creature with those feats could inflict it's damage 3 times in a single round if all rolls were successful. If you add Rage Powers on top of that... you're looking at a ridiculous amount of damage output.
Animal Fury
Bloody Bite
Raging Grappler
Let's look at a Tyrannosaurus with those feats AND Rage Powers and see how many Bite damages (+) can be inflicted! >:)
+ Attack Action with Grab (Standard action)
Initiate Grapple (Free action *Grab*)
+ Raging Grappler (part of action Initiate Grapple)
+ Maintain Grapple-Move, Pin, Damage(Move action *Greater Grapple*)
+ Animal Fury (part of action Maintain Grapple)
+ Maintain Grapple-Move, Pin, Damage (Swift action *Rapid Grappler*)
+ Animal Fury (part of action Maintain Grapple)
4d6+26 x 6! An Awakened Tyrannosaurus with levels in Barbarian is quite destructive >:)
In gameplay, grappling functions a lot like save or suck spells. So if you make a hyper-specialized boss it typically ends up with one character getting toasted and then the party gangs up and beats down the boss. And a specialized grappler will toast most PCs CMD, which makes the martial/tank types feel like there defense investments are wasted.
Grap monsters are fairly effective out of the box, just need to ensure the fight is not 5 vs 1. Depending on the party level, try an APL +2 or +3 fight against a group (one for every PC or two PCs) of constrictor snakes, animated objects, or rocs.
Snakes and animated objects just grab, pin, and damage until the characters dies (skip pinning to soft ball the fight, this way a character at least has a fair chance to fight back.). Rocs grab, move (the grapple option) over a cliff and free action drop to deal massive fall damage.
Thanks! I suppose the gang of monsters helps combat Stephen Ede's analysis (quoted in my OP) of why grabs amount to suicide. If there's a group of monsters, each character gets to make a full attack after being grabbed, but the rest of the party becomes too busy to pile on, too.
GRAB- As far as Grab goes, the +4 does not mean it has Improved or Greater Grapple. You are just naturally better at "to start and maintain a grapple.". IF you gain Improved Grapple and Greater Grapple (+2 from each), you now have a +8 to start and maintain a grapple, +4 on CMD vs Grapple and can maintain a Grapple as a Move action.
RAPID GRAPPLER- Basically, the extra Grapple check as a Swift action allows you to Maintain a Grapple a 3rd time per round at -5 unless you have already used your Swift action already.
OCTOPUS- If the Octopus can manage to "hold" with his grapples (-20), then it could continue to attempt to grapple other creatures as it does not gain the Grappled condition but would have 1 less Tentacle attack per creature grappled in this manner. Normal Grappling rules does not permit grappling multiple creatures at once.
Best Grappling Action in One Round:
Attack Action with Grab (Standard action)
Initiate Grapple (Free action *Grab*)
Maintain Grapple-Move, Pin, Damage (Move action *Greater Grapple*)
Maintain Grapple-Move, Pin, Damage (Swift action *Rapid Grappler*)A creature with those feats could inflict it's damage 3 times in a single round if all rolls were successful.
Nice. And I assume that I'd want Improved Grapple as well as Greater Grapple just for the bonuses, but what about Improved Unarmed Strike? I'd think it's reasonable to say that a monster with natural attacks counts as having that feat for purposes of prereqs.
So, it looks like Grabbing Style isn't needed unless you're going higher in the chain. But what about monsters who do take the CMB penalty to not gain the grappled condition while grappling a foe? (Or have that as a bennie?) Would they lose their Dex bonus to AC while pinning a target without this feat?
~~~~~
Oh, yes, your awakened T-Rex is extremely destructive...
Unfortunately, I don't have or use much in the way of splatbooks, and I'm not finding two of the rage powers you mention (Bloody Bite & Raging Grappler) in the PRD. I'm trying to figure out how an attack round would go with a slightly less OP monster like a Cecaelia advanced with 2 levels of Barbarian & Animal Fury, and failing. I mean, I can see that I'm adding +2 BAB & +3 Fort to the base write-up, and for sure would add one of her +4's to Strength. (I'm going by the Bestiary under Monster Advancement for the stat increases.) I'd also drop Combat Reflexes & Weapon Focus (spear) in favor of Improved & Greater Grapple, and add Rapid Grappler with her new levels. Note that she'd keep Weapon Focus (tentacle).
So now on a full attack action while raging she has (but check my math, please)
mwk spear +16/+11 (1d8+10/×3); 2 tentacles +11 (1d4+3 plus grab); bite *animal fury* +10 (1d4+3).
Her grapple CMB is 21 while raging, or 23 w/ a successful animal fury bite, not good enough to try to hold with the body part grabbing at -20. So as soon as her first grab hits, she's grappled, too -- and at -2 to her remaining attacks, right?
The question is how best to use these? Help!
Unfortunately a creature doesn't gain IUS for free or is considered to have it. IUS doesn't do anything helpful for a creature either aside from counting as a prerequisite for other feats, like Improved Grapple.
I recommend this feat instead...
Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.
~~~~~
Using the Hold action from the Grab ability would be for very powerful creatures that have 30+ CMB for grapple checks. Finishing the full attack action at -2 after grappling makes sense to me but I'm sure others would feel that your full-attack ends as soon as you successfully initiate a grapple.
The best way to use this is to either use full-attack actions to get as many hits as possible(1 v many) or focus completely on grappling and pinning an opponent(1 v 1) until they are dead.
Those Rage Powers are found in the Player Companions- People of the River and Agents of Evil
Dirty Fighting also isn't popping up in the PRD feat index, although it looks great. *sigh* Of course, I have imported a few non-PRD feats...
I'm going to ask about IUS separately (here).
The best way to use this is to either use full-attack actions to get as many hits as possible(1 v many) or focus completely on grappling and pinning an opponent(1 v 1) until they are dead.
Is this amounting to: "Ignore the Grab ability unless you're planning on pinning one foe and using only Grapple damage against that one foe." ??
Because then a single advanced Cecaelia is better off with the Combat Reflexes & Weapon Focus (spear) she started with, and probably can find a better rage power. *deeper sigh*
Is this amounting to: "Ignore the Grab ability unless you're planning on pinning one foe and using only Grapple damage against that one foe." ??
Not entirely... you can be crafty with it and save the attacks with *Grab till the end of the full-attack and restrict someone who is problematic, they will now have to spend at least their standard action to escape you on their turn. Good targets would be a spellcaster or someone using a two-handed weapon. Even if either one escapes they cannot make a normal attack or cast a spell. If you still have that enemy grappled when you start your next turn, release as a Free action and Full-Attack again.
Just know that having the grappled condition will make you easier to hit from the rest of the group.
Thanks.
This is homebrew, yes, but I'm proposing adding a feat to my game, and I'd love your critiques:
This creature can grapple its foes with ease.
Prerequisites: Str 15, Grab ability.
Benefit: If a creature with this feat uses the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent, it takes only a –10 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple. If the check is successful, it does not gain the grappled condition itself.
Normal: Creatures using the part of their body used in the grab to hold an opponent take a –20 penalty on their CMB checks to make and maintain a grapple.
*** Is lowering a penalty from -20 to -10 reasonable for one feat? ***
I think that as a feat reducing the penalties by half is reasonable, however, I do feel that being strong enough to pull that off would require a higher STR prerequisite. Similar to Awesome Blow I would say 25 STR.
Oooh. 25, huh?
Is there anything between 15 and 25 with a precedent? (I'm thinking not...)
What about leaving it at Str 15, but adding a BAB prereq? Would BAB +6 be enough?
{Added: The difference would be that a Tetori monk would have a very tough time qualifying for a prereq of Str 25, but could manage Str 15 & BAB +6 by 8th level. Probably okay...}
{Addition to the Addition: My husband Debnor just reminded me that he plays a bearbarian in our anthropomorphic campaign (with the ABP). He's very scary already. Do I want him to qualify for this feat now, at 6th level? (Able to take it at 7th, in other words.) Or do I want to put off the double-armful bear-hugs until his 12th or 13th? Maybe your rec is making more sense to me now... LOL}