Emerald Spire - xp / fame impact, possible spoiler

[Leganduil]

I started playing Emerald Spire in a PFS this weekend. I'm not sure if this is consistent throughout the superdungeon or across all modules (hence the possible spoiler in the subject) but we got 3 xp and only 4 prestige points, when from what I've seen so far in PFS there's usually the possibility to get up to 6 prestige points every time you level. Since fame = prestige, does leveling up a character through a module have a big negative impact on your gear at higher level since the gold you can spend per item is limited by your fame?

Other than that question, we had a great time - just somewhat concerned by how the math would seem to work out over time and wondered how it played out for other people.

Thanks!

[Jeff Merola]

The system is designed around the assumption that you're only getting 4.5 Prestige/Fame per level, rather than the full 6. So you'll be a little behind on the Fame scale, but it's nothing to be worried about.

[YogoZuno]

It is standard for all modules that you get 3XP and 4PP. It's in the Guide to Organised Play.

[John Compton]

Jeff is right; however, take a look at the Land Rush Chronicle sheet that you should have received as part of playing a level of Emerald Spire. The "17th Chronicle" has ways of earning additional Prestige Points and Fame that help to offset the lower Prestige payouts associated with modules and bring it closer to the 4.5 expectation. If I recall correctly, one can even get close to 5 PP per level with Emerald Spire.

[SCPRedMage]

John Compton wrote:

Jeff is right; however, take a look at the Land Rush Chronicle sheet that you should have received as part of playing a level of Emerald Spire. The "17th Chronicle" has ways of earning additional Prestige Points and Fame that help to offset the lower Prestige payouts associated with modules and bring it closer to the 4.5 expectation. If I recall correctly, one can even get close to 5 PP per level with Emerald Spire.

Let's break the math down on this, so that people can see exactly where this falls. We'll start off by reminding people that you are expected to fail some secondary objectives, and as such the campaign assumes you should earn 4.5 PP per level, meaning when you hit level 13 you should have 54 fame.

Spoiler:

Each hex on the grid costs 2 prestige. Let's assume you only aim for B hexes (which grant 1 PP) and D hexes (which restore 2 expended PP). There are 6 Bs and 2 Ds, so when we add in the A hex (where you have to start off), you end up having spent 18 PP, gained 6 PP, and restored 4 expended PP. This means that once you've completed the entire superdungeon, assuming you followed the suggested slow/normal advancement plan in the chronicle document, you'll have 54 fame and 40 PP, as well as 36 XP (making you level 13). As a benchmark, maximum fame earned is 2 per XP, while with standard modules it is 1.33.

If the player earns the Sigils of the Spire boon, that increases to 57 fame and (assuming it applies to the D hexes, too, which is really the only way they actually do anything) 47 PP.

Using the Boon of Abraxas to Wish for Properity increases fame and PP by one; choosing instead to Refuse the Wish negates the cost of purchasing a hex, increasing your remaining PP by two (but leaving fame the same).

For the record, there are eight other hexes available to purchase, each of which grant their own benefits; if you want them all, it'll cost an additional 16 PP, but obviously your fame will not be reduced, leaving you with the same item access as you'd have by not purchasing them.

So, assuming we've done everything we can to maximize fame, at the end we're looking at 58 fame, which comes to 1.61 fame per XP, or 4.83 fame per level. While this does fall short of the total possible fame you can earn, it is still above the campaign's stated goal of 4.5 fame per level. Even if you use that second boon for something else, that still leaves you with 57 fame, which is still ahead of the curve.

In other words, the Emerald Spire has mechanics to boost your fame accrual to be close to what you should be getting by playing scenarios exclusively.

[Belafon]

John Compton wrote:

Jeff is right; however, take a look at the Land Rush Chronicle sheet that you should have received as part of playing a level of Emerald Spire. The "17th Chronicle" has ways of earning additional Prestige Points and Fame that help to offset the lower Prestige payouts associated with modules and bring it closer to the 4.5 expectation. If I recall correctly, one can even get close to 5 PP per level with Emerald Spire.

Speaking of which, John, is there any chance we can get that expectation codified in the next edition of the Guide to Organized Play? This question pops up quite often.

[Leganduil]

James Wygle wrote:

(detailed explanation in spoiler above) In other words, the Emerald Spire has mechanics to boost your fame accrual to be close to what you should be getting by playing scenarios exclusively.

Good to know - thanks to everyone in the thread for the info, and for this post specifically for the detailed explanation!

[kinevon]

John Compton wrote:

Jeff is right; however, take a look at the Land Rush Chronicle sheet that you should have received as part of playing a level of Emerald Spire. The "17th Chronicle" has ways of earning additional Prestige Points and Fame that help to offset the lower Prestige payouts associated with modules and bring it closer to the 4.5 expectation. If I recall correctly, one can even get close to 5 PP per level with Emerald Spire.

Speaking of this idea, John, any update on the fourth chronicle for home game mode Dragon's Demand?

As currently done, Dragon's Demand, in home game mode, and all chronicles on the same PC, gives that PC 12 XP and 16 Fame, which puts him 2 Fame under the expected par. I remember you saying you would look into it, last time it was brought up, so I was just wondering if anything has been discussed/decided on it?

[Chris Mortika]

When modules were first sanctioned for PFS Organized Play, characters earned prestige for running errands for faction leaders. There were no faction missions in the modules, so -- by rights -- there shouldn't have been any prestige at all. The 4-PP award was something of a compromise.

Nowadays, characters earn prestige for completing the primary mission and by acting like Pathfinders: going the extra mile to rescue obscure lore, to cooperate with other field agents, and to put the Society in a good public facing. All of those goals might be accomplished during module play.

Is there any way that the prestige / fame mechanic could be updated, to be brought in line with the current campaign? "Get 3 XP for completing the mission. Get anywhere from 1 to 3 additional XP for completing these three tasks, which improve the Society."

[Ascalaphus]

I think the 4.5PP/level expectation isn't really accurate; I can count the number of incomplete successes on one hand. I'll need only two fingers actually. One of which was a disastrous run of Thornkeep 3, the other the Silver Mount Collection because it's freakishly easy to mess up that secondary condition. From what I hear, most other people are used to getting the full success too.

In that light I would like a shift in modules towards the possibility of full PP, if you do well at the module. I rather enjoy the wrap-up at the end of a game where the GM counts off success conditions, and I think something like that could be worked into module design as well.

[claudekennilol]

I may be on the short end of the stick. But I've played 28 scenarios and the only one where I haven't gotten 2 prestige is We Be Goblins (because it only gives 1). (edit: disclaimer, three of those I GM'd so I guess they don't count as obviously I gave myself full prestige then.)

1.5 may be what's expected from "those from above", but from everyone sitting at a table 2PP is expected every single time. I know many people in my area won't play modules/free rpg days/whatevers on any character they actually want to play because it's just that much longer before they can pay for a raise.

Something is broken. If management expects us to only early 1.5PP per 1 xp, then they need to fix it so it's not so damned easy to get the full 2PP every single time. Right now players expect 2PP because that's what's given to us.

[AxeMurder0]

Chris Mortika wrote:

When modules were first sanctioned for PFS Organized Play, characters earned prestige for running errands for faction leaders. There were no faction missions in the modules, so -- by rights -- there shouldn't have been any prestige at all. The 4-PP award was something of a compromise.

Nowadays, characters earn prestige for completing the primary mission and by acting like Pathfinders: going the extra mile to rescue obscure lore, to cooperate with other field agents, and to put the Society in a good public facing. All of those goals might be accomplished during module play.

Is there any way that the prestige / fame mechanic could be updated, to be brought in line with the current campaign? "Get 3 XP for completing the mission. Get anywhere from 1 to 3 additional XP for completing these three tasks, which improve the Society."

That's a remarkably good idea, although I'm wary of solutions that require more dev time as module sanctioning has been very slow as of late.

[downerbeautiful]

Chris Mortika wrote:

"Get 3 XP for completing the mission. Get anywhere from 1 to 3 additional XP for completing these three tasks, which improve the Society."

I"m not saying this is a bad or wrong idea, but here's something I think many players fail to remember. Modules aren't really written for PFS play the way scenarios are. Marcos doesn't tell you to go check out the town of Ravenmoor and collect back taxes, some no-name out of Magnimar does. Eliza doesn't dispatch a team to go investigate some wizard's academy, either. PFS sanctioning of modules occurs after they're written, and the sanctioning does not add society elements or names to the game. I think it's already generous that they're sanctioned, and most of the new modules are sanctioned quickly. Adding secondary success conditions that would garner more prestige and fame for players could easily cause the sanctioning and producing certs to come to a full stop since campaign management already has enough on their plates.

claudekennilol wrote:

Something is broken. If management expects us to only early 1.5PP per 1 xp, then they need to fix it so it's not so damned easy to get the full 2PP every single time. Right now players expect 2PP because that's what's given to us.

How many scenarios have you read? How many secondary success conditions have you read? They aren't all that easy all of the time. Many of them are damn-near impossible unless your party gets some lucky breaks or you have a table of six or seven players. I've had players berate me because they didn't meet secondary success conditions, and I've seen players malign other GMs for the same reason. I know there's a mentality of "close enough" among some GMs to avoid this situation and there's an "I'm awesome and can't fail, so I should always get both prestige" mentality some players exhibit. I'm willing to wager you've not earned as many fame/prestige as you actually have if you factor in the "close enough" rulings I've seen or heard of.

[claudekennilol]

Rachel Hill wrote:

claudekennilol wrote:

Something is broken. If management expects us to only early 1.5PP per 1 xp, then they need to fix it so it's not so damned easy to get the full 2PP every single time. Right now players expect 2PP because that's what's given to us.

How many scenarios have you read? How many secondary success conditions have you read? They aren't all that easy all of the time. Many of them are damn-near impossible unless your party gets some lucky breaks or you have a table of six or seven players. I've had players berate me because they didn't meet secondary success conditions, and I've seen players malign other GMs for the same reason. I know there's a mentality of "close enough" among some GMs to avoid this situation and there's an "I'm awesome and can't fail, so I should always get both prestige" mentality some players exhibit. I'm willing to wager you've not earned as many fame/prestige as you actually have if you factor in the "close enough" rulings I've seen or heard of.

Whenever I play here, 4 out of 5 times there are 7 people sitting at the table. The other 1 out of 5 times there are 6.

But now that you mention it, there was one specific time I know we should have gotten 1 prestige instead of 2 (so that's exactly one out of the 27 sessions I've played that can give 2PP). There was absolutely no indication given to not kill the BBEG at the end of the scenario. On a 1-5 playing low tier I charged the BBEG with a scythe then crit and dropped her dead in one hit. Since we were given absolutely no indication that that was the secondary success condition and we'd gone out of our way to not kill everyone else, the GM took pity and said one of the other guys we hadn't killed had the info we needed.

What you're saying only proves my point. The system is broken because players expect their 2PP every time. Obviously players are getting more than 1.5PP per 1 xp otherwise they would not feel so entitled.

[Iammars]

claudekennilol wrote:

What you're saying only proves my point. The system is broken because players expect their 2PP every time. Obviously players are getting more than 1.5PP per 1 xp otherwise they would not feel so entitled.

And that is the reason why I have started getting stricter with Secondary Success Conditions. I can't change all of PFS, but I can start with my home region.

[Ascalaphus]

claudekennilol wrote:

I may be on the short end of the stick. But I've played 28 scenarios and the only one where I haven't gotten 2 prestige is We Be Goblins (because it only gives 1). (edit: disclaimer, three of those I GM'd so I guess they don't count as obviously I gave myself full prestige then.)

I'm not sure if I'm reading correctly, but you're not giving yourself 2PP for free RPG day stuff and suchlike, right?

Because that's not supposed to happen; the GM's PP is the same as the players maximum PP. Unfortunately the website can't quite handle giving a GM 1PP so it's an easy mistake to make; in fact, it causes a divergence between your paper and digital record.

[claudekennilol]

Ascalaphus wrote:

claudekennilol wrote:

I may be on the short end of the stick. But I've played 28 scenarios and the only one where I haven't gotten 2 prestige is We Be Goblins (because it only gives 1). (edit: disclaimer, three of those I GM'd so I guess they don't count as obviously I gave myself full prestige then.)

I'm not sure if I'm reading correctly, but you're not giving yourself 2PP for free RPG day stuff and suchlike, right?

Because that's not supposed to happen; the GM's PP is the same as the players maximum PP. Unfortunately the website can't quite handle giving a GM 1PP so it's an easy mistake to make; in fact, it causes a divergence between your paper and digital record.

If you're reading it in a way that leads you to believe I'm giving myself 2PP for free RPG day stuff then you're reading it incorrectly.

[Ascalaphus]

Okay, all's well then :)