Goblin Squad Member
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Using violence to intercede and stop a worse violence is always commendable, and the setting doesn't matter.
Sounds like a valid reason... until you have situations like Syria... or they decide to arm the drones over US skies.
Also, find a veteran who has ever had to kill a child strapped with a suicide vest in order to save civilians and his/her platoon.
I doubt they will describe their recounted story as "commendable".
To follow on from Charlie there is a world of difference between the citizen of a country intervening in something and a foreign national crossing into a country and intervening.
Additionally unless you are actually present you have no idea what the situation is.
Example you come across a merchant caravan under attack from UNC. That situation could be one that is a true bandit activity, conversely it could also be a lawfully sanctioned interdiction that you are intervening in. The latter is certainly not a lawful action and it is most definitely not a good action either.
Most settlements will take a pretty dim view of you trying to enforce anything within their territory and that will be the case even if you have a bounty contract to answer that one before you run it out.
While we haven't as yet discussed it internally so I can't absolutely confirm it to be the case but I think it likely that the empire will take the view that only Empire accredited law enforcement officials will be permitted to operate in our lands and that itinerant knights will kindly keep their swords sheathed as they do more harm than good
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's exactly what I'm saying. Having a high reputation just means you did whatever it takes to get rep and avoided doing the things that subtract rep. It's your weight, not your morals.
If I am reading this then, you want us to "use" rep if it is furthering the goals of our company/settlement/kingdom as if it is a currency? My only question to this concept is this then:
I support this idea, as it makes the idea of spending rep to commit actions part of the cost instead of the goal being to get as high and keep as high of a rep as possible, however, are we to still aim for the high rep, while using it when actions call for it to be used in the name of our company/settlement/kingdom?
Another question, is there a way to gage how well a character is being played within the guidelines the GW has set, for example, bandits who ambush rather then SAD, vs bandits that SAD vs ambush? I originally thought rep would be that metric. Will there be a metric for that at all?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Attacking sovereign entities on our lands will be met with a swift and forceful response. Attacking Pax-blue forces will likely be met with the same. Attacking greys in our territory will be treated as a standard crime until such of time where a pattern emerges that lends substantial credit to method over madness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Are you saying that reputation will be a currency spent on things, to the exclusion of a capital good which has value when simply accumulated?That doesn't make much sense to me.
Reputation is not a unit of account or a store of value. You can't exchange it with someone for a good or service. I can't spend your reputation.
In this "new" context of "spending" reputation, I am not taking it as if it were a coin or good, but rather spend it via actions that lower rep doing an action that will benefit the company/settlement/kingdom. That is how I understood the "spending rep" concept.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Another question, is there a way to gage how well a character is being played within the guidelines the GW has set, for example, bandits who ambush rather then SAD, vs bandits that SAD vs ambush? I originally thought rep would be that metric. Will there be a metric for that at all?
Yeah, this keeps arising as a fundamental assumption. And it's wrong.
Here's the "guidelines GW has set":
Don't be a jerk.
Everything else is the emergent experience of hundreds, then thousands, then tens of thousands, then hundreds of thousands of people seeking their own destiny in our virtual world. Those actions, save for the jerky ones, have neither the quality of being "good" or "approved".
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CEO, Goblinworks
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In this "new" context of "spending" reputation, I am not taking it as if it were a coin or good, but rather spend it via actions that lower rep doing an action that will benefit the company/settlement/kingdom. That is how I understood the "spending rep" concept.
Do you think you're "spending weight" when you exercise?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Honestly, the sheer level some guys seem to pushing to cultivate an openly hostile environment for people who are trying to help is frightening. If Pax is going to openly attack and hunt down people who aren't their own for the crime of aiding travellers, they're going to be very strongly LE/NE aligned.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Honestly, the sheer level some guys seem to pushing to cultivate an openly hostile environment for people who are trying to help is frightening. If Pax is going to openly attack and hunt down people who aren't their own for the crime of aiding travellers, they're going to be very strongly LE/NE aligned.
Pax is guilty of the crime of openly stating they prefer to handle their own affairs. If that choice carries an alignment shift then the bridge will be crossed when it arrives.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Duergar are LE, some settlements already announced for PFO are LE, do you think they would find your choices moral or stupid? Morality on Golarion is either based on natural law or divinity...and there are lots of choices for divinity.
I'm sure they would not agree with my moral ideas. Notice they are evil though. I'd like you to take a look at two character philosophies. The first is lawful-good and the second chaotic-good.
Crusaders endeavor to stamp out the presence of evil wherever it arises. These just, strong individuals spend their lives in pursuit of such heroic endeavors, tenaciously taking the fight to the root of evil in an attempt to eradicate it. Crusaders seek honor, valor, and glory in their pursuit of evil, and willingly sacrifice themselves in their efforts to destroy their targets.
If you are a crusader, you:
• Abhor evil in all its aspects.
• Are motivated to right wrongs and to stamp out evil and injustice.
• Seek honor and glory through your actions, and suffer death over accepting dishonor.Code: You are honorable and risk your life to eradicate the evil threatening your lands or the lives of those you've vowed to protect.
Vigilantes believe those individuals enforcing the laws of the land are too lazy or uncaring to effectively punish evildoers, or that their hands are tied by the law. Therefore, vigilantes step forward to deliver justice to wrongdoers, serving as both judge and punisher for thieves, thugs, and murderers. When their prey happens to be slavers or violent oppressors, vigilantes sometimes cross paths with freedom fighters. For vigilantes, justice must be delivered at all costs, and they risk their own lives to keep the lives of innocents safe and secure.
If you are a vigilante, you:
• Value the justice delivered by your own hand.
• Are motivated to punish evildoers.
• Disregard laws to bring about your own justice, and are, therefore, often a wanted individual.Code: You risk limb and life to bring wrongdoers to justice for their crimes, and in doing so, make life better for others.
Those positions which are recognized as good, seem to be in complete agreement with my point of view on violence.
Honestly, the sheer level some guys seem to pushing to cultivate an openly hostile environment for people who are trying to help is frightening. If Pax is going to openly attack and hunt down people who aren't their own for the crime of aiding travellers, they're going to be very strongly LE/NE aligned.
Settlements have laws if you come onto our lands and break our laws one of which is likely to be that law enforcement in our lands is our perogative then expected to be treated as the criminal you are.
Will brighthaven be happy if I march into your settlement lands and kill any of your citizens that happen to have bounties on their head? No I don't think you would.
The simple fact is mostly you will be interceding with imperfect information. You will come across a situation and you will have no way of knowing necessarily who is the guilty party. The attacker flag in no way indicates this before you suggest it does. This will mean that you are in the wrong on a large number of occasions
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think I understand what Ryan means by reputation not being a unit of account. It's an emergent behavioral outcome.
Like, I could take two twins--identical genetics--and give them radically different training and diet protocols: A (ultra-marathoning) and B (muscular hypertrophy). They are going to have radically different body and capacity outcomes, but neither is "good" or "bad" and no one spent anything.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In this "new" context of "spending" reputation, I am not taking it as if it were a coin or good, but rather spend it via actions that lower rep doing an action that will benefit the company/settlement/kingdom. That is how I understood the "spending rep" concept.Do you think you're "spending weight" when you exercise?
Certainly not, you lift weights when you exercise. That would make reputation the weighted vest you wear, and reputation is possibly the creatine that supply nutrients to your muscles?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Honestly, the sheer level some guys seem to pushing to cultivate an openly hostile environment for people who are trying to help is frightening. If Pax is going to openly attack and hunt down people who aren't their own for the crime of aiding travellers, they're going to be very strongly LE/NE aligned.
If we were to ASK for the help, you become Pax-blue and are AUTHORIZED to help. People sticking their nose in our business after being told our stance on "unsolicited help" are engaging in activities contrary to our interests.
We may work out small deals with groups here and there. I am by no means saying that that is off of the table. What I am saying is "trying to help" is an obscured stance based on perspective.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can we just acknowledge here that this is a game, with game mechanics, and playing the game isn't really a moral issue? If Pax wants to do NBSI or NRDS or XPAladocious, that's totally cool? And you know, kind of a big part of the game?
"Hey guys, here's my great idea for a compelling new open world PvP sandbox: Everyone plays a LG Paladin and we all just chat!!!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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In this "new" context of "spending" reputation, I am not taking it as if it were a coin or good, but rather spend it via actions that lower rep doing an action that will benefit the company/settlement/kingdom. That is how I understood the "spending rep" concept.Are you saying that reputation will be a currency spent on things, to the exclusion of a capital good which has value when simply accumulated?That doesn't make much sense to me.
Reputation is not a unit of account or a store of value. You can't exchange it with someone for a good or service. I can't spend your reputation.
"The Goodfellow", the use of "currency" to describe Rep/Influence/DI was mine; I thought Ryan wasn't buying into that use and haven't seen him use it.
However, when he says You can't exchange it with someone for a good or service, I wonder if reputation gifting is now off the table.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can we just acknowledge here that this is a game, with game mechanics, and playing the game isn't really a moral issue? If Pax wants to do NBSI or NRDS or XPAladocious, that's totally cool? And you know, kind of a big part of the game?
Done, the official stamp with official ink is in the mail.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be clear here, I'm discussing how mechanics should work, not the policies of TEO and Brighthaven. If players residing in Pax controlled territory have attacker/murderer/villain flags is killing them evil? No, not if you're going by the system of morality established within the table-top.
Is it meaningful PvP? Yes (well... maybe not for heinous/villain characters but I'm sure they'll fix that). They got those flags for taking aggressive actions against other players, so bringing them to justice is meaningful player interaction.
So it shouldn't penalize you on the good-evil axis, and it shouldn't penalize your reputation.
Does that mean TEO will do it? Probably not. I'm sure there will be organizations much more sinister than Pax to occupy our attention.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why does anyone's desire to crusade or "punish wrongdoers" supersede a Sovereign Territory's right to administer their own justice on their own lands?
If it is not lawful in any given territory for you to administer justice therein, then it is an unlawful action for you to do so.
A crime.
If you want to go about it, then contact the "Politico's" of said territory and ask permission.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why does anyone's desire to crusade or "punish wrongdoers" supersede a Sovereign Territory's right to administer their own justice on their own lands?
If it is not lawful in any given territory for you to administer justice therein, then it is an unlawful action for you to do so.
A crime.
If you want to go about it, then contact the "Politico's" of said territory and ask permission.
Which is why there's a CG alignment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If players residing in Pax controlled territory have attacker/murderer/villain flags is killing them evil? No, not if you're going by the system of morality established within the table-top.
The problem with this idea is it is not TT play. The territories are played by people that make their own laws and want to hold players accountable for breaking them, internally.
Some may not mind wandering crusaders, some will.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why does anyone's desire to crusade or "punish wrongdoers" supersede a Sovereign Territory's right to administer their own justice on their own lands?
If it is not lawful in any given territory for you to administer justice therein, then it is an unlawful action for you to do so.
A crime.
If you want to go about it, then contact the "Politico's" of said territory and ask permission.
We are in total agreement on that point. Breaking laws should move you toward chaos and flag you as a criminal. When Pax tracks down vigilantes breaking their laws they should be able to kill them without law-chaos or reputation drift. I'm only arguing that good-evil and reputation shouldn't apply to killing murderers and villains.
Really I think reputation slide should only apply to killing players who do not frequently initiate aggressive actions / those who break contracts etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If players residing in Pax controlled territory have attacker/murderer/villain flags is killing them evil? No, not if you're going by the system of morality established within the table-top.The problem with this idea is it is not TT play. The territories are played by people that make their own laws and want to hold players accountable for breaking them, internally.
Some may not mind wandering crusaders, some will.
No, it's just based on the same world and system of morality as the TT. If you don't like wandering crusaders/vigilantes in your lands, you kill them. Just like I will kill any murderers and villains in my lands.
Vigilantes and crusaders are just as meaningful and integral to the Pathfinder universe as bandits. If bandits can rob and murder people without reputation slide because it's meaningful content then why should those who hunt them suffer it?
Any player who regularly initiates aggression should be a free target for other PvPers in terms of reputation. That includes players like me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"The Goodfellow", the use of "currency" to describe Rep/Influence/DI was mine; I thought Ryan wasn't buying into that use and haven't seen him use it.
However, when he says You can't exchange it with someone for a good or service, I wonder if reputation gifting is now off the table.
Maybe you can gift it, but the Ryan is describing it, it won't be a money--a unit of account. It will not "make that which is unequal, equal."
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not a question of good or evil. It's a question of do you have legal grounds to kill a flagged character in our lands. Just because they are flagged doesn't mean it's legal to kill them.
No. I don't. So criminal flag me and kill me without rep slide. PLEASE. That's what I want.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why does anyone's desire to crusade or "punish wrongdoers" supersede a Sovereign Territory's right to administer their own justice on their own lands?
If it is not lawful in any given territory for you to administer justice therein, then it is an unlawful action for you to do so.
A crime.
If you want to go about it, then contact the "Politico's" of said territory and ask permission.
We are in total agreement on that point. Breaking laws should move you toward chaos and flag you as a criminal. When Pax tracks down vigilantes breaking their laws they should be able to kill them without law-chaos or reputation drift. I'm only arguing that good-evil and reputation shouldn't apply to killing murderers and villains.
Really I think reputation slide should only apply to killing players who do not frequently initiate aggressive actions / those who break contracts etc.
I would not mind if either or both of those turned out to be true. I am looking at things from one viewpoint and a biased play style agenda though.
I don't have the onerous burden of making the game appeal to a wide enough audience that many viewpoints and agendas can be experienced. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Having laws that dictate who is allowed to help others is definitely lawful. It just gets really easy to slide straight to evil in the process. If that's Pax's intention, that's fine. I just want everyone to be honest with themselves what their intentions are.
We have made it apparent that we intend to be as honest as we can with what information we have come up with.
In this case, we have stated our desire, and that we will deal with the mechanical side of the equation should that be necessary.
I don't see how more honest we could have been.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No. I don't. So criminal flag me and kill me without rep slide. PLEASE. That's what I want.It's not a question of good or evil. It's a question of do you have legal grounds to kill a flagged character in our lands. Just because they are flagged doesn't mean it's legal to kill them.
I find these terms acceptable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not a question of good or evil. It's a question of do you have legal grounds to kill a flagged character in our lands. Just because they are flagged doesn't mean it's legal to kill them.
It can be a question of good and evil in addition to the fact that those Vigilantes are (rightfully) chaotic. You may make it a crime to help those in need. That's what makes CG characters CG. They help the needy and oppressed despite lawful authority telling them otherwise.
No need to get defensive. I'm in complete agreement that you should be able to put laws in place that tell do-gooders to stay out. You can't have Robin Hood without laws telling him he's wrong to help the needy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I threw it put there because Pathfinder is identical to how most of you will answer this. Using violence to intercede and stop a worse violence is always commendable, and the setting doesn't matter. That's why paladins carry weapons. Anyone trying to force a pacifist view or lawful perspective on the PFO morality system does so in error.
Are you saying the only expression of lawful good is through violence? Your perception of alignment is your own, but you should not project it upon others and how they choose to follow their alignment beliefs.
You may make it a crime to help those in need. That's what makes CG characters CG.
We are not making a law saying that though we are making a law saying that it should be up to our law enforcement to punish lawbreakers as you are stumbling on a situation and will be drawing conclusions about what is happening which will often be wrong.
Pax lands will be in our opinion safer than most for merchants and we have taken steps to bring this state of affairs down. We see vigilantes and their capricious actions as being detrimental to this state of affairs.
I fully expect for instance vigilantes coming upon a caravan under attack by for example UNC in our lands to jump in and help the caravan. This would certainly be exactly the wrong thing to do as UNC are an arm of our law enforcement within Pax territories and if they are attacking a caravan it is because they are acting under lawful instruction. Your vigilante who thinks he is acting for good is definitely committing both a crime and an inherently evil act.
This is the whole crux of the matter, you do not have the full picture so you are incapable of coming to an authoritive judgement. Acting in a situation where there is doubt over who is the guilty party shows a reckless disregard for both law and justice and can never be a good act even if on occasion you guess right.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You guys understand that this is an open world PvP sandbox game, based on Pathfinder, right? It's not a Pathfinder CRPG. It's not an ethics training sim. It's not a historical simulator.
If we're talking about DMing a TT game, then invoking the SRD definitions of alignment make some sense. But this is an adaptation of the flavor of PF to a particular kind of game. There's going to be changes in adaptation. Maybe if there's too much then the game really doesn't honor PF roots, but that's a different argument.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I threw it put there because Pathfinder is identical to how most of you will answer this. Using violence to intercede and stop a worse violence is always commendable, and the setting doesn't matter. That's why paladins carry weapons. Anyone trying to force a pacifist view or lawful perspective on the PFO morality system does so in error.Are you saying the only expression of lawful good is through violence? Your perception of alignment is your own, but you should not project it upon others and how they choose to follow their alignment beliefs.
No, I'm saying that lawful-good and pacifism, while good, aren't the only expressions of good and you should stop trying to project your narrow view of good onto me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not a question of good or evil. It's a question of do you have legal grounds to kill a flagged character in our lands. Just because they are flagged doesn't mean it's legal to kill them.
It can be a question of good and evil in addition to the fact that those Vigilantes are (rightfully) chaotic. You may make it a crime to help those in need. That's what makes CG characters CG. They help the needy and oppressed despite lawful authority telling them otherwise.
No need to get defensive. I'm in complete agreement that you should be able to put laws in place that tell do-gooders to stay out. You can't have Robin Hood without laws telling him he's wrong to help the needy.
When we talk about alignment, we are talking about what the mechanics might be. Even that is speculative, but imposing too much intent might be more than the system in the game will be measuring.
But the original position remains unchanged. Pax does not wish for vigilante elements operating within our territories without our consent.
We will hear your concerns and in some cases approve an activity. We will always prefer for grievances to be aired through diplomatic channels, where they will likely have a more positive effect.
If such a position forces a mechanical shift to Lawful Evil, then we will adjust fire or accept that new position depending on internal Pax discussions.
I giggled. Also I still love you, and miss you.@ Pax Charlie George
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As a merchant with fingers in many pies can I take this moment to point out that I have reasonably priced rooms to rent
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Goblin Squad Member
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You may make it a crime to help those in need. That's what makes CG characters CG.We are not making a law saying that though we are making a law saying that it should be up to our law enforcement to punish lawbreakers as you are stumbling on a situation and will be drawing conclusions about what is happening which will often be wrong.
It's simple: Is it unlawful for an outsider to help those in need within your lands without permission? If so, the outsider is being chaotic, but also good. If there will not be a law in place to enforce that, then you have Vigilantes from outside helping.
This is not a stumble. This is a very specific question to identify a specific case. I am not trying to draw my own conclusion; I am trying to get an answer. ^_^
I am very confused how helping a caravan under attack is "inherently" evil. The situation you describe is a Lawful Evil nation enforcing its unjust laws. Law/Chaos and Good/Evil are two separate things in Pathfinder.
It's simple: Is it unlawful for an outsider to help those in need within your lands without permission?You may make it a crime to help those in need. That's what makes CG characters CG.We are not making a law saying that though we are making a law saying that it should be up to our law enforcement to punish lawbreakers as you are stumbling on a situation and will be drawing conclusions about what is happening which will often be wrong.
Simply put you do not have sufficient information to judge who is in need or if the action you have stumbled on is a justified police action, therefore instead of running the risk of aiding and abetting the evil smugglers who are blighting the lives of our citizens.
I am very confused how helping a caravan under attack is "inherently" evil. The situation you describe is a Lawful Evil nation enforcing its unjust laws. Law/Chaos and Good/Evil are two separate things in Pathfinder.
The caravan under attack may well be one smuggling for instance, perhaps it is carrying slaves. Being a caravan under attack does not mean you are good and the attackers are bad. This is our point you the vigilante do not know what the truth of the situation actually is you are merely guessing then acting out of your position of self righteous arrogance and will often kill the innocent and help the evil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As a merchant with fingers in many pies can I take this moment to point out that I have reasonably priced rooms to rentI giggled. Also I still love you, and miss you.@ Pax Charlie George
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I completely reciprocate. Quoting and bolding so I can hold you to it if I want to. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Simply put you do not have sufficient informationIt's simple: Is it unlawful for an outsider to help those in need within your lands without permission?You may make it a crime to help those in need. That's what makes CG characters CG.We are not making a law saying that though we are making a law saying that it should be up to our law enforcement to punish lawbreakers as you are stumbling on a situation and will be drawing conclusions about what is happening which will often be wrong.
Stop. Is it legal or illegal?
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Killing people within our lands for purpose of law enforcement will be only by duly accredited personnel. These will be mainly Empire people though we may be open for treaties with pragmatic kingdoms that we believe can be trusted to use hot pursuit and other such legal niceties in reasonable and measured ways.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stop. Is it legal or illegal?Simply put you do not have sufficient informationIt's simple: Is it unlawful for an outsider to help those in need within your lands without permission?You may make it a crime to help those in need. That's what makes CG characters CG.We are not making a law saying that though we are making a law saying that it should be up to our law enforcement to punish lawbreakers as you are stumbling on a situation and will be drawing conclusions about what is happening which will often be wrong.
Vigilante (not approved) activity is currently defined as illegal in our lands. Stop. End of line.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And if it's killing people for the purpose of stopping obvious murderers and villains regardless of laws? I don't know if murder and heinous activities are legal on Pax lands and a NG/CG character wouldn't care.
Murder, outside of policing activities is also illegal in Pax lands. End. OF. Line.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Vigilante (not approved) activity is currently defined as illegal in our lands. Stop. End of line.
Perfectly acceptable. Thank you. I plan to play a character that leans more on the Lawful side of NG, so we won't necessarily come in conflict, but I hope you get your chance to call CG characters the criminals they are if they break your laws.
And if it's killing people for the purpose of stopping obvious murderers and villains regardless of laws? I don't know if murder and heinous activities are legal on Pax lands and a NG/CG character wouldn't care.
Frankly what qualifies you as judge, jury and executioner. You are not qualified and if you decide otherwise then that is your delusion and it will be met with swift and harsh punishment as befits a murderer