Greetings all,
I'm running Rise of the Rune Lords with a group of (wait for it) 12-14 players!!! It's all people I work with, most of which who've never gamed before, but so far they are loving it.
Currently they are finishing up the Catacombs of Wrath, but I'm already looking ahead to ways to challenge them. I'd like to insert a BBEG to be their recurring foil. I'm thinking of a few possibilities, definitely with a dragon rider-esque theme:
A gestalt character (is that weird with non-gestalt players?)
An Eldritch Godling min/maxed all to hell.
An unmodified Planar Shepherd from 3.5 (OP, but so are they, and it helps offset my biggest challenge which is player action economy).
An enemy with mythic tiers, when the player don't.
An entire rival party made up of some combination of the above.
Or some combination of all of the above.
TL;DR version: How do I challenge a football team's worth of rookie players doing Rise of the Rune Lords?
|
The simplest way is to separate them into two encounters, and then follow the normal CR stuff for both groups. Give them important but different tasks and different encounters, ideally far enough apart that they would not run their encounters into each other.
Barring that encounters with multiple layers of challenge should help. Maybe dealing with traps, grappling/tripping mooks and a spellcasting BBEG or something to that effect, maybe with hindering terrain to make it hard for them to all blitz one person. I don't think it really makes sense to make an enemy so powerful that he could easily obliterate 4 or 5 of them in a fight assuming the others fell in a pit or something.
Right, something similar happened in their fight with Erylium; her AoE fear worked on all the heavy hitters leaving the skill monkeys and pacifists to fend for themselves. If she had any meaningful offense they'd have gotten face rolled.
Once again, the *#1 issue* I foresee is action economy, especially as their multiple attacks start to accrue. Having enemies that can withstand 12-24 attacks thrown at them for every 1 they can throw back is tough. Especially since you make a compelling point about the bad guy swarming the weaker players if the strong ones fail a save.
Oddly enough, the large numbers haven't been SO bad to manage. I've been splitting them into 3 groups and having them roll initiative for the groups, and then for individuals and keeping that for the session. Then I just roll for the mobs as necessary. I also encourage them to figure out what they want to do in advance, so when I get to them it's just instantly rolling to see what happens.
I've doubled the mobs in every encounter, and bumped up their hit points and AC a bit, and I roll for them all at once so things hum along. However, the logistics of trying to manage those groups in different places doing different things without 2/3 of the group being bored at any give time would be tricky. I do think a mythic template applied to most of the important NPCs might do the trick; as it stands the warrior 1-shot Korovus off of a natural 20 power attack with a great sword and some great damage rolls, which was great for him but crappy for me, lol.
*BTW the reason why the group is so big is I said yes to anyone who wanted to play, thinking they'd start flaking; but quite the opposite has been true. They voted to add a third session a week and new people keep asking to play because they keep hearing how much fun everyone is having. Dang it, lol.
You need to split a group that size up and just have them play on different days.
Bar that you are going to end up with some pretty insane battles that are more on par with small military campaigns that could potentially raze small towns than a rag-tag party of adventurers.
You need at least as many enemies as there are players and to do this they can be, at max, CR(APL-1). For 2 foes the CR drops to CR(APL-3), for 3 foes it is CR(APL-4), and for 4 foes it is CR(APL-5). Do the above for EACH CHARACTER giving them each their own little personal encounter that they could, in theory, solo, and you have a massive battle that is in some manner balanced.
For this many players I would both encourage and discourage enemies who use large AOEs since it is possible to kill the players really easily if a bunch of fireballs all hit the same person with the edges of their AOEs.
Basically, never have any enemy fight alone. For the numbers you might have to rework your environments to make room for the massive number of enemies and players you have, or you could just make the bulk of the enemies incorporeal so they can glide through the walls and hit them from behind--but that is admittedly a dick move, fun though!--
Yes, we've had about 6 sessions so far, and as I said they voted to add another session and people are STILL asking to join the group, yikes.
i don't want to belabor the point, but you really should think about trying to split the group in half if there's anyway at all you could get someone else to run a party... barring that, if there's an experienced player there at all you could double every encounter and have him (or her) run half the party through the encounter while you run the other half through the same encounter- use two separate maps and don't worry too much about whether or not 2 people are occupying the same square on the different maps, and just kind of remind each group that they're surrounded by the chaos of combat as their teammates are fighting by their sides.
It's not too difficult at very low levels, simply because there's only so much that a PC can do. But when the options, multiple attacks, status effects, buffs and so on start kicking in around 4-6th level it'll really slow down. And by 10th it'll be utterly impossible.
You've had 6 sessions with 12 players successfully? Can you record that or something? Honestly, I would love to see it in action. I've never even dreamed that pathfinder was possible with that many people.
If you are familiar with Rise of the Rune Lords, they just finished Catacombs of Wrath and are about to assault Thistletop, so they're about level 3ish now. Mudfoot is right, they don't have a ton of things they can do right now, *however*, I think this is as slow as it's going to go, since I still have to explain basic concepts like skill checks and which dice to roll for attacks vs damage, or "reminding" them of spells they've got because their character would know that vs the newbie player who doesn't. The culture that's forming is them helping each other check the books and d20SRD to look up stuff so that they're ready to go when their turn comes. I would *anticipate* that later their 4 attacks won't be so dissimilar than their one attacks now.
By the same token, although I already split them into three chunks to adjudicate combat, I COULD split them into halves and get someone else to run the combat...but part of what they are enjoying so much is coordinating their attacks, laughing at misses, oooing and aahing crits, etc. Just today the group had to convince our half-orc barbarian not to try and nurse Erylium back to health so that he could keep her as a pet, lol. So if it streamlines combat, but reduces their player experience, then I haven't really accomplished anything.
Knowing that, I'm moving away from the idea of a single recurring BBEG, but I still need to account for their action economy. Especially since I'm an old school min/maxer, so I've been giving them the best advice I can about how to build their characters, guides to read etc. So soon I won't have a football team of newbies, I'll have a football team full of wrecking balls, lol. I might get away with doubling/tripling the # of mobs in small encounters, slapping templates on the bigger mobs and adding the mythic template to the REALLY big bads (?)
*Edit this guide to designing challenging encounters. just rolled by in my feed, and is giving me some good ideas, too.
Yes, the roll initiative once per session, and just roll for the mob in question has worked very well for us. Xorran, how do you account for that many bodies, though? More mobs? Tougher mobs? Traps and non-combat challenges...or all of the above?
An interesting thing happened tonight during our session (we do an hour at lunch on Tues/Thurs and 3ish hours Weds night). Half the group had to work late, so I 'only' had 5 players (rogue/ninja/dragon rider (Supergenius games) /Barbarian/Ranger) with an Oracle that showed up late, which was good since they had 0 healing. Oddly enough, they went out of their way to *avoid* fights, using diplomacy and intimidate checks, and general sneakiness to get around the top level of Thistletop.
I've planned ahead and intend to alter the encounters to have the names fight them together, and it so happens Tsuto got captured at the Glassworks, so he'll have 'mysteriously' escaped. Basically I'm going to do it like them vs the Sinister 6, so we'll see how it goes; lol.
Heres an idea,
If you still want to incorporate a super evil bad guy solo boss have him go after every 2 or 3 players. Try it out once and see how it runs.
You could just double HP for the bad guys, and give them two rolls for initiative.
Should be a little easier than doubling the numbers of bad guys as well.
---------------–----------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------
But, my overwhelming preference is two groups. Either formally assign it, or ove to a more open style, where all the players are involved, but only some are available for any given mission.
Check this out for an example
Heres an idea,
If you still want to incorporate a super evil bad guy solo boss have him go after every 2 or 3 players. Try it out once and see how it runs.
I thought about that, but that's one of the moral dilemmas; is that fair?
BBEG can go 2/3 times just cause? I pride myself on my ability to out-Pathfinder them by the book without having to use any tricks, lol.
Well pathfinder is built for supporting a 4 man party. If they want to be challenged without the need of overwhelming them with the same number of foes, then its a good idea at the very least. Remember you as a DM are well within your right to house rule anything you deem fit. For a 12-14 man party that means charting some direction in combat management.
Heres an idea,
If you still want to incorporate a super evil bad guy solo boss have him go after every 2 or 3 players. Try it out once and see how it runs.
I thought about that, but that's one of the moral dilemmas; is that fair?
BBEG can go 2/3 times just cause? I pride myself on my ability to out-Pathfinder them by the book without having to use any tricks, lol.
Its not about what is fair, its about what is going to be fun and cool for your group.
I have run large 10 person groups before 8 is now my limit.
My BBEG are usually Advanced Templated Great Wyrm dragons . A good example of one that I have done can be found in the Free product Pathways #2 with the Pyroclatic Great Wyrm Red Dragon. This is because they have the best BAB, Saves, HD, stats etc.
For your group I would actually go with a Gesalt, Mythic, Templated, High level BBEG, and let him trounce (but not kill) the entire party once (this will make them HATE him) Personally I like your Eldritch Godling/Dragonrider idea.
I have done this in story before, because the BBEG was not there to fight or kill the party he was there to simple take and item from them a leave. (which stealing form the PCs made them hate him even more.) His casual arrogance that he was that he did not need to kill them because they did not even rise to a level of a threat. It was literally a curbstomp battle.
You can also go free form, If the creature needs AC XX to avoid all attacks than make his AC that high, if he needs displacement then he has it, if he needs an immediate action right them let him, if he ha sto have more the XX hp then has them. Just write it all down and then make sure it stays consistent, it can be new powers as the plot demands but those powers need to be consistent and then have limits placed on them because the plot demands it be so. Then they will start trying to find out that weekness he hides is, why you need a specific mythic weapon to slay him etc.
Plus you can always put a dread undead template on him and have him show up even more powerful after they defeat him.
One of my favorite recurring enemy I used was an acolyte (NPC class) lich. Inept as a caster, but it took them forever to figure out that one of their handy haversacks was his phylactery. Much fun was had. His CR was pretty low due to NPC class.
Heres an idea,
If you still want to incorporate a super evil bad guy solo boss have him go after every 2 or 3 players. Try it out once and see how it runs.
I thought about that, but that's one of the moral dilemmas; is that fair?
BBEG can go 2/3 times just cause? I pride myself on my ability to out-Pathfinder them by the book without having to use any tricks, lol.Its not about what is fair, its about what is going to be fun and cool for your group.
I have run large 10 person groups before 8 is now my limit.
My BBEG are usually Advanced Templated Great Wyrm dragons . A good example of one that I have done can be found in the Free product Pathways #2 with the Pyroclatic Great Wyrm Red Dragon. This is because they have the best BAB, Saves, HD, stats etc.
For your group I would actually go with a Gesalt, Mythic, Templated, High level BBEG, and let him trounce (but not kill) the entire party once (this will make them HATE him) Personally I like your Eldritch Godling/Dragonrider idea.
I have done this in story before, because the BBEG was not there to fight or kill the party he was there to simple take and item from them a leave. (which stealing form the PCs made them hate him even more.) His casual arrogance that he was that he did not need to kill them because they did not even rise to a level of a threat. It was literally a curbstomp battle.
You can also go free form, If the creature needs AC XX to avoid all attacks than make his AC that high, if he needs displacement then he has it, if he needs an immediate action right them let him, if he ha sto have more the XX hp then has them. Just write it all down and then make sure it stays consistent, it can be new powers as the plot demands but those powers need to be consistent and then have limits placed on them because the plot demands it be so. Then they will start trying to find out that weekness he hides is, why you...
Thank you all for your input!
Sorry for the delay in response, I got swept away by life for around 50 hours there. Yes, I like this line of thinking quite a lot.As it stands now, I am adding in far more tactical advantages for the 'named' mobs. Bruthamus nearly killed 2 of them in an ambush (they are still in Thistletop). I'm going to probably have them fight Orik 1 on 1 (since diplomacy would work on him) but Lyrie will escape no matter what. When they finally fight Nualia they'll have to fight her and a newly escaped Tsuto as well, which I'll play like optimized characters. I figure if 3-4 of them don't escape Thistletop, my point will have been made.
After that, pending how the fight plays out I think I'll either make a newly resurrected Nualia their dragon riding bane, OR have it be one of their descendants from the future trying to 'force' them to become the heroes they are destined to be, which explains her constantly griefing them but never finishing them off. Then I could player her like a 'who's side is she really on' Catwoman type character. That seems legit, lol.
Sounds great, glad to be of help.
So here is what happened (so far). Again, assuming you are familiar with RotRL:
Inside Thistle Top I had them fight Bruthamus alone, and Orik alone. Then, when they got to Nualia I had Lyrie there, a newly returned Tsuto (who'd escaped jail in Sandpoint) and a resurrected Bruthamus...Lamashtu be praised!
Round 1 Lyrie dropped grease on them, and then the arrows, magic missles, and channeled negative energy started flying. And when they finally beat Nualia (they rolled 20, 20, 18 (on an 18-20 weapon), and 20 right before my very eyes) I had it revealed the goblin cup bearer who'd been hiding in the corner turned out to be Malfeshnikor in hiding. Now they're all under 15 hit points and fresh out of spells, so it should be pretty interesting. ;)
The moral of the story: The way to counter their action economy is to take it away from them. Things like grease, shatter, putting enemies up on ledges out of melee range, AOE damage, stacking enemies who've had a chance to prepare defenses, etc.
Ha, thanks; I'll keep you posted!
Let me give you a heads up: Here is a buffed up version of Malfeshnikor that you might want to consider using.
So here is this week's update (and in the interest of the thread, I'm still open to any and all ways to hit these guys, lol):
I created a second thread on how you use NPCs in your parties where I concluded I'd de-power my melee wrecking ball Cleric--who'd been my character in a previous campaign--into a mystic theurge that I let another player control in combat. Thanks to a well placed channel energy, and a dispel magic on the half-orc barbarian Malfeshnikor had cast charm monster on, essentially won them the fight. But not before Malfeshnikor put the fear of the Lord in them and laid out several members of the party.
For the record, I *highly* recommend the buffed up version of Malfeshnikor, lol. ;)
There is a strange undercurrent of deviousness forming in the group, though. They spared one Goblin that they left in charge of Thistletop so that they could use it as their new headquarters, and found and executed the guard who'd let Tsuto escape.
Going into the Skinsaw Murders I warned them that it would be more about using their head than kicking in doors. I chose the 'lust' and 'envy' notes to give to two of the players rather than just one. And, as a part of their investigation half of the group went to the Scarnetti family estate to question them. The Cleric dropped a zone of truth and they confessed to all sort of terrible crimes in and around Sandpoint, but not murders of Harker and Katrina. To which our party decided to kill the entire Scarnetti family and make the servants swear to never tell anyone. It was quite interesting watching them deliberate over the fates of unarmed, old, terrible human beings, lol.
So what I learned:
Advanced/Elite template mobs are your friend.
Stacking encounters, up to and including resurrecting previously defeated enemies is your friend.
Playing your enemies as intelligent, observant, and prepared works.
Greese, charm, and stunning fist all == win.
And especially confronting them with moral dilemmas that they can't solve with a sword stroke works best of all.
Of course they staged the Scarnetti family's deaths to look like the work of the Skinsaw man, which the *other* half of the party is now trying to investigate....
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
use of more foes works
action denial effects work
use of Area effects works
downing a few players to unconsciousness works
being stingy with treasure to accommodate the extra actions works.
pretty much anything to cancel out their action economy or negate many possible actions works
but rise of the runelords, is already pretty treasure stingy