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Ok, this is kinda home brew also, but I want to design a vanguard-esque PF class that is centered around the biotic charge. Barbarians with their pounce ability springs to mind, as does charge/ bull rush/ trample/ overrun... But I want a 1/4 casting full BaB class like the ranger and paladin that has a biotic charge ability. High init, is probly a must, and maybe some self-centered aoe dmg auras as well.
What can be done about this?
Sounds more like an archetype than a full class. Is it going to be actual biotics or magic? If magic, I'd suggest rolling the magus and barbarian together, with a 1-4 casting progression. Your "biotic charge" could be something like a magus' spell combat and spellstrike, where they get a free spellstrike with a touch spell at the end of a charge.
im not familiar with the vangaurd, what kind of things do biotics do? And how do you feel about 3rd party material.
It will be a magic class. A biotic charge is like a "magical" bull rush. You charge in a straight line causing minor dmg to everyone in your path, and major dmg to your target + prone. It ignores difficult terrain and cover. You essentially move at the speed of light for a short distance which allows you to blow through people. It's an instant dmg force effect like magic missile. That's the best way I can discribe it. The vanguard is a tank class and tactically, you charge the back rank of enemies and provide a pincher style attack with the rest of your party.
The vanguard also has an ability where they punch the ground and cause a shockwave burst 2 effect. They use alot of self buffs and single target dmg, with a few aoe effects as well. I really think they need a base class work up. And there is no 1/4 casting arcane class. VG would be iconic enough to pull off the feel of it while being different enough from the paladin and ranger to have their own niche.
Something like this? Found a basic version in an old mass effect d20 pdf I found ages ago and added a few things to it. Balance is wonky, I'm sure.
Biotic Charge
Range: Close
Targets: Any 1 creature within range
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex (special)
The vanguard uses her biotic powers to send herself toward an enemy with astounding force. The vanguard moves from her current location to being directly adjacent to the enemy, anywhere within the range of the ability (regardless of move speed). The target takes 1d6/ 2 levels force damage to a maximum of 10d6 force and is knocked prone. If the target succeeds on an Acrobatics check (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Ability modifier), it is not knocked prone. If the attack roll fails, the ability does nothing and the vanguard does not move.
Any creatures other than the primary target caught in the path of the biotic charge must make a successful Reflex save or take half damage.
That looks tasty. Maybe put it on a progression as paladins smite/day, or a use 1/2 lvl + ability mod. It a start, going with a d10 HP, 2-4 skills, full prof minus shields, 1/4 caster progression and we are cooking with gas. Great find Da'ath!
Well if you are ok with 3rd party options take a look at the Kobold Press Battle Scion. In particular the force blaster archetype. It is a full armor, full bab 4 level arcane casting class with a 'blast' ability, that the force blaster turns into a mix of bullrush and trip. I think that is like 90% of the way to what you are looking for.
Edit: And amusingly enough, the author has publish a sort of cousin to this class called the vanguard under a different third party publisher, but that is a 3/4 BAB 6 level casting class.
Looks interesting. May have to pick that one up.
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So if I am going loosely off of the paladin, the charge works as smite for times/ day, 1,4, 7, 10, 13, 16, and 19th . We will also give him 1/2 lvl to spellcraft and knowledge arcana, and detect and read magic.
At lvl 2, Lay on hands becomes a conclusive burst. It's useable 3/day + int, the VG punches the ground releasing a concussive bust of force dmg that does 1d6/2 lvls to all creatures (including allies, excluding the VG) in a 10ft radius centered on the VG. Characters that fail a fort vs are deafened for 1 round, and the VG becomes flat footed till the start of his next turn.
Divine grace becomes cunning defense: the VG uses his int mod in place of dex for AC, ref, ini, and cmd. Any condition that would cause a VG to lose his dex bonus to AC causes him to loose his int mod instead.
At lvl 3, 7, 11, 15, and 19, the VG gains a bonus feat (combat or meta magic).
At 5th lvl arcane bond/ familiar.
After that, I don't know.
I'm thinking spells should be defense/ buff oriented with a few touch spells sprinkled in for good measure.
Maybe scaling armor prof as well, but with cunning def, light armor seems almost optimal.
The capstone ability could be force charge followed by a concussive burst that would be 20d6 + possible prone and deafness.
Any other ideas?
I thought maybe the concussive burst could use a blast template later that is a 30ft line. Maybe at lvl 4?
You might find this useful. A fan of mass effect has been converting classes, powers, etc. to the d20 system.
Linky: Mass Effect d20
Thanks for the link! I want to use them to make a themed class that fits in the PF setting. I think the VG has what it takes to base a unique base class off of.
How about assault training? At lvl 10 you can choose eithe 1/4 DR or weapon training at 10, 15, and 20?
Maybe work pull in there somehow as well?
im not familiar with the vangaurd, what kind of things do biotics do? And how do you feel about 3rd party material.
THIS is a Vanguard. :)
im not familiar with the vangaurd, what kind of things do biotics do? And how do you feel about 3rd party material.THIS is a Vanguard. :)
Yes! The VG is the ultimate in high risk/ high reward play styles. More options than a barbarian, more tactical than a fighter, more fun than a rogue with a fist full of d6's, less stuck up than a paladin, and the gunk on his shoes is the blood of his enemies as opposed to the animal companion feces like the ranger.
If I could package this into a base class then it will be epic!
Sounds more like an archetype than a full class.
More I look at it, the more I think this might be a good way to go.
Combine the attributes of a Rogue using the Scout archetype by adding in Charge -> sneak attack at 4th; skirmish -> sneak at 8th, and some sort of teleport/dimension agility feat line -> sneak attack.
[QUOThttp://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/3rd-party-publishers/rite-publishing---magus-arcana/charge-of-the-magi-suttp://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/3rd-party-publishers/rite-publishing---magus-arcana/charge-of-the-magi-suttp://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/3rd-party-publishers/rite-publishing---magus-arcana/charge-of-the-magi-su="Byrdology"] Ok, this is kinda home brew also, but I want to design a vanguard-esque PF class that is centered around the biotic charge. Barbarians with their pounce ability springs to mind, as does charge/ bull rush/ trample/ overrun... But I want a 1/4 casting full BaB class like the ranger and paladin that has a biotic charge ability. High init, is probly a must, and maybe some self-centered aoe dmg auras as well.
What can be done about this?
There is a product for the magus out there by a third party company that allows you to biotic charge. Its called Charge of the Magi from Rite Publishings The Secrets of the Magi. You can charge things on different elevations and you deal damsge when you hit. The book is really good and worth the buy. Hope this helps.
Well, that certainly seems to be what I am looking for. Kind of a shame though, I was really looking forward to putting a base class together with it. Oh, well, thanks for all the links and ideas.
Well, that certainly seems to be what I am looking for. Kind of a shame though, I was really looking forward to putting a base class together with it. Oh, well, thanks for all the links and ideas.
I wouldn't let the existence of something similar deter you. There have been times when I've constructed various things that ended up working better for my group than the standard.
Well then, I guess it's back to filling in blanks...
D10 for HP. Good BaB, fort, and will. 2 + int skills per lvl. Martial weapons, light armor, and shields (except for tower shields). Spell progression as paladin/ ranger, arcane prepared based off int.
1) force charge 1/day, detect magic, read magic, magical aptitude
2) concussive burst
3) cunning def, bonus feat
4) spells, force charge 2/day
5) arcane bond/ familiar
6) medium armor
7) force charge 3/day, bonus feat
8) shockwave
9) assault training
10) force charge 4/day
11) bonus feat
12) heavy armor
13) force charge 5/day
14) assault training
15) bonus feat
16) force charge 6/day
17) aura of disruption
18) assault training
19) force charge 7/day
20) capstone force charge + concussive burst
Here is my rough outline, subject to change. I'll throw up some class ability descriptions when I get the chance.
Shockwave: At lvl 8 the VG can instead cause the concussive burst to travel in a 40ft line effecting all creatures in its path.
More to come...
-combat mastery: @9, the VG gains weapon training as the fighter class feature. Her VG levels count as -3 for determining what feats she meets pre reqs for.
@14, the VG adds her int bonus to confirm critical threats.
@ 18, the VG adds x1 to her bonus crit dmg, and gains a second weapon training group.
-defensive mastery: @9, the VG gains DR 2/-, and gains proficiency with tower shields.
@14, the VG gains an additional DR 2/-, can move her full speed in med armor, and lessens her ACP by 2.
@18, the VG gains an additional DR 2/-, can move her full speed while wearing hvy armor, and no longer incurs a penalty while wielding a tower shield
-combat casting: @9, the VG gains combat casting as a bonus feat, and subtracts 1 from the modification of any meta magic feat she knows.
@14, she subtracts 2 from the moddified lvl of any meta magic enhanced spell she can cast.
@18, the VG can use her force charge or concussive burst as a move action.
This entry needs some help and balance.
Here's some general thoughts I had (in no particular order):
1. Force Charge feels a little weak for an ability with such limited uses. The extra damage and burst of mobility (being able to move and then essentially double move via charge and attack is interesting) is nice, but it seems to fall a little flat when compared to other abilities that have such a small number of uses. For instance it has the same use progression as Smite Evil and Challenge, both of which last until the target is down.
2. Concussive Blast also seems a little iffy in actual utility. When I read it I was thinking of Nova, which from ME was an incredibly powerful but incredibly risky attack; I don't feel like Concussive Blast really captures that. I'd consider buffing this ability up into something more powerful and then perhaps give it a use progression you're using for Force Charge (and give force charge the larger number of uses per day); if you'd do that then I would think of adding a line under Force Charge that lets you use this at the end instead of a normal attack.
3. Cunning Defense is a really nice ability and I think it was good that you placed it a little bit into the class to prevent dipping strictly for it.
4. I don't really see the Arcane Bond/Familiar or the Magical Aptitude flavor. Along the same lines, have you ever looked at Psionics Unleashed?. A small number of Power Points plus access to small amount of powers might be more fitting for this than the Pally/Ranger spell progression.
5. One miscellaneous idea about Force Charge/Concussive Blast uses; maybe give the class some sort of resource pool, like Ki or Arcana Pool that need to be spent to use those abilities instead of set uses? Along the same lines you could make it so those powers could be augmented based on the number of points spent; like a base Force Charge costs x but you can do a Force Charge that does 1d6 per level instead of 1/2 level for 3x. Or something. If you went the Psionics route then Power Points could be used in place of or in addition to.
6. Combat Mastery is a little unclear to me. So you get Weapon Training which would increase every four levels, so 13 and 17 for +3 hit/damage total? If so the second weapon training is kind of a waste because all it will ever do it give +1.
7. Defensive Mastery has some nice additions, but many of them feel a little late to the party (especially Tower Shield Proficiency and not being gimped by it all the way at 18).
8. Combat Casting could be interesting. The reduction of metamagic costs could be ok depending on the final spell list. The ability to use signature abilities as move actions is also cool; move action Force Charge (which ends in an attack) and then still have a standard.
9. For Assault Training in general I get the feeling it would be more beneficial a little earlier and have it grow a little more naturally instead of just having three stops along the way.
Just some thoughts I had looking it over so far.
Excellent starting point! Thank you for your critique!
Addressing force charge, concussive burst, and shockwave: I think I will roll them altogether and have them share the 3/day + int pool. They will all have a chance to knock a target prone + shaken 1round/ 10 dmg, but leave the VG flat footed till the start of his next turn. Does that feel right?
Magical aptitude: scratch this, or maybe roll it into the combat casting aspect of assault training...
Arcane bond/ familiar: scratch the familiar part unless you want to burn a feat for it. I really want to keep the arcane spells vs psionics, because I don't allow psionics at all in my game.
In regards to assault training: maybe move arcane bond to 4, and assault training to 5, 10, and 15? It leaves some dead levels, but it would feel a bit more organic. You get the idea of the 3 separate paths and a rough idea of what I want from them, but I am open to complete reworking of this feature.
I'm open to all suggestions, tweaks, and critiques. I'm not to proud to eat an idea if the overall concept is workable.
Others might not agree with me on this, but...
Looking at Force Charge, I'd significantly increase the uses/day: the vanguard has to hit with his attack, it does not appear you have them teleporting, and making a charge means he is potentially suffering AoO and other relevant combat effects.
I'd recommend mimicing the aclhemist's bombs/day and use:
"A vanguard can use his biotic charge a number of times each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier."
Perhaps concussive blast and shockwave could be tied to this as effects that modifiy his biotic charge. For example:
Concussive Blast: The vanguard makes his charge as a standard action, but instead of rolling an attack, at the end of the charge he erupts in biotic energy, dealing the nova type blast centered on the square in which his charge stops. (Reflex save)
Shockwave: The vanguard makes his charge as a standard action, but instead of rolling an attack, he creates a line of effect from his origin to the end of his move action dealing damage to all caught in the line. (Reflex save)
I'll have to look at assault training further this evening after my daughter falls asleep to be of much help.
Hmm, I don't know where I went wrong with that. The charge is the "teleport" type charge, the concussive burst is a 10ft radius, and shockwave is a 40ft line. I agree with the uses/ day. Lvl + int mod or at least 1/2 lvl + int mod.
Hmm, I don't know where I went wrong with that. The charge is the "teleport" type charge, the concussive burst is a 10ft radius, and shockwave is a 40ft line. I agree with the uses/ day. Lvl + int mod or at least 1/2 lvl + int mod.
The line that reads, "makes her charge as normal."
For a teleport, as you intended, I might be inclined to say:
"as a standard action, the vanguard teleports to a point adjacent to her target on a successful hit."
Or something to that effect
Yeah, it was at the bottom of the discription...
"When making this charge, she is considered to be flying. She can move over pits and other hazards, but she lands in the space where her charge ends and suffers any drawbacks for standing there after resolving her attack. If she misses the ability is expended."
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I'd like to take a crack at this.
I don't agree that they should have spells, but I'd like to add some raw arcane power: let's key a lot of these abilities to Charisma, which strikes me as more akin to biotics anyway. Let's make charging central to the class, and give them lots of goodies when charging. Naturally they should be melee-based, as shotguns in Pathfinder don't work the same way they do in Mass Effect. I also want this class to feel very high risk/high reward, so it should play like a glass cannon that constantly needs to charge his opponents and knock them down.
D10, Full BAB. Good Fort, Poor Ref and Will, 2+Int skills per day.
Acrobatics (Dex), Craft (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (Planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha)
A vanguard is proficient with all martial weapons and with light and medium armour.
1 Arcane Strike
2 Kinetic Charge
3 Mobility Training
4 Kinetic Boost
5 Aggressive Charge I
6 Bonus Feat
7 Mobility Training
8 Vital Strike
9 Aggressive Charge II
10 Bonus Feat
11 Mobility Training
12 Improved Vital Strike
13 Aggressive Charge III
14 Bonus Feat
15 Mobility Training
16 Greater Vital Strike
17 Aggressive Charge IV
18 Bonus Feat
19 Mobility Training
20 Ultimate Charge
Angled Charge: When the vanguard uses Kinetic charge, he may make one turn of less than 90 degrees during his movement.
Careful Charge: When the vanguard uses Kinetic charge, he can remove the bonus he gains to his attack rolls from charging to remove the penalty to AC.
Charge Wave: When the vanguard uses Kinetic charge, a wave of energy is released that damages all targets in a 10-foot radius. The damage is equal to half the melee damage done by the vanguard's charge. A Reflex save reduces this damage again by half, and the vanguard is always considered to have saved against this damage.
Elemental Charge: When the vanguard uses Kinetic Charge, he leaves a trail of energy that damages anyone that passes through for 1d6 damage (acid, cold, electricity or fire) for every two vanguard levels. The trail lasts a number of rounds equal to the vanguard's Charisma modifier. The type of energy is chosen when the vanguard uses his Kinetic Charge ability, but can be changed freely each time it is used.
Flying Charge: When the vanguard uses Kinetic Charge, the energy he channels makes running unnecessary. The vanguard gains the ability to charge through difficult terrain or over gaps. The vanguard can charge foes in the air with this ability, but if he cannot fly, he falls immediately after making his attack.
Frightening Charge: When the vanguard uses Kinetic Charge, his target is frightened for 1d4 rounds. A Will save reduces this to shaken for 1 round. All opponents within 10 feet of the target must make a Will save or be shaken for 1d4 rounds.
Knockback Charge: If the vanguard hits his opponent while using Kinetic Charge, he can make a bull rush against that opponent as a free action.
Knockdown Charge: If the vanguard hits his opponent while using Kinetic Charge, he can make a trip attack against that opponent as a free action.
Sonic Charge: When the vanguard uses Kinetic Charge, his weapon is charged with sonic energy that does 1d6 damage for every two vanguard levels he possesses. All creatures within five feet of the vanguard (other than the vanguard) must make a Fortitude save or be deafened for 1 minute.
Versatile Charge: When the vanguard makes a charge attack without using Kinetic Charge, he can make use of one Mobility Training ability. For example, a vanguard with Elemental Charge and Versatile Charge could leave a trail of energy for any charge attack he makes. The vanguard can take this ability more than once; each time he chooses a different Mobility Training to apply to his Versatile Charge.
Thoughts? I haven't actually run any numbers, but hopefully it's not too weak or too strong. I like the idea of an arcane warrior, but I don't see the vanguard as buffing up or tossing spells.
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I'm looking at this now, and I feel like I should have added more non-combat options. Perhaps I'll tinker with it and remove the Bonus Feats for more out-of-combat abilities. Perhaps a dimension door spell-like ability, or the choice of a few different spell-like abilities, would be more appropriate?
Very nice Mergy! It has a very nice feel to it. I'll have to play them both to get a good feel over all.
Atarlost: that is an interesting proposition, may be worth looking into as well.
Force charge- the VG can make a charge attack against a target up to 60ft away that she can see. The VG bolts in a straight line, ignoring difficult terrain, hazardous terrain, and pits and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Any enemies caught in the path of the charge receive half this dmg (save for none).
Concussive Burst- the VG can strike the ground causing a 10ft burst (centered on the VG) of force dmg to all creatures in the radius (except the VG herself)
Shockwave- the VG slashes her weapon in the air, and a blast of force emminates from her and travels in a 30ft line or 15ft cone damaging all creatures in its path.
These effects deal weapon dmg + modifiers + 1d6/ every 2 lvls the VG possesses (minimum 1) + knocks the targets prone. Save DC = 10 + 1/2 the VG lvl + int mod, save for half dmg and the opponent is not knocked prone. The VG is considered flat footed till the start of her next turn. This ability can be used a number of times/ day = to 1/2 her VG lvl (minimum 1) + her int mod.
Assault training:
@ lvl 10 the VG adds her int bonus to confirm critical threats.
@ lvl 15 the VG adds x1 to her bonus crit dmg, and gains a second weapon training group.
@ lvl 10 the VG gains an additional DR 2/-, can move her full speed in med armor, and lessens her ACP by 2.
@ lvl 15 the VG gains an additional DR 2/-, can move her full speed while wearing hvy armor, and no longer incurs a penalty while wielding a tower shield
@ lvl 10 she subtracts 2 from the moddified lvl of any meta magic enhanced spell she can cast. The VG also gains the Arcane Bond class feature as a wizard of her lvl.
@ lvl 15 the VG can use her force strike as a move action.
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Looks interesting. May have to pick that one up.
Did someone mention the Battle Scion? :)
Sorry, I've had too much coffee today :)
In all seriousness, this is an interesting thread. I think you actually might want to check out the The Expanded Battle Scion - it sounds like more or less what you are discribing here. (it's now up to #2 on Paizo's Top Ten 3pp Download list, by the way - thanks so much to everyone who has purchased it so far!!!)
As Kolokotroni says, you get full armor and full BAB plus a Force Blast ability right from first level. Along with the addition of a few arcane spells beginning at 4th level, you essentially get an 'arcane paladin' style class (in fact, arcane paladin is pretty much how I would describe the class).
I humbly submit that folks in this thread may well find the class well worth a look :)
Thanks Marc, I plan on picking it up as soon as I'm able. I poured over the review, and I'm chomping at the bit to get my hands on the full deal. In the mean time I am left to my own devices with the much appreciated help and critique provided by everyone.
Maybe once you get the Battle Scion, you could just make an archetype, substituting force blast for force charge and replacing something else for shockwave and concussive burst.
I would not be opposed to that idea.
Charging should not be a limited use ability at all, rather one on a cooldown like a breath weapon. Also, it needs to be made clear that you can charge through anything, even friendlies and enemies alike.
Also, the Nova equivalent should give a limited invulnerability effect ( Damage Reduction, perhaps? ).
I finished reading over the battle scion. I am going to write a review, and then I will work on this as an archetype.
I finished reading over the battle scion. I am going to write a review, and then I will work on this as an archetype.
niiice
Archetype still to come.
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I finished reading over the battle scion. I am going to write a review, and then I will work on this as an archetype.
Big thanks to Byrdology for his review:
New Paths 4: The Expanded Battle Scion
Really interested to see the Battle Scion Vanguard archetype :)
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Ok, I have been carefully combing over the base class and 2 existing archetypes to find a good balance for the VG archetype. As I have it now, it can stack with either the force blaster OR bonded scion for maximum customizability.
Combat mastery: at 4th lvl the VG can choose to specialize in offensive or defensive training.
@ lvl 4 the VG gains weapon training as the fighter class feature. Her VG levels count as -3 for determining what feats she meets pre reqs for.
@ lvl 9 the VG adds her int bonus to confirm critical threats.
@ lvl 14 the VG adds x1 to her bonus crit dmg, and gains a second weapon training group.
@ lvl 4 the VG gains DR 2/-, and gains proficiency with tower shields.
@ lvl 9the VG gains an additional DR 2/-, and lessens her penalty from tower shields by 2.
@ lvl 14 the VG gains an additional DR 2/-, and no longer incurs a penalty while wielding a tower shield
*combat mastery replaces fighter training at lvl 4, spell tactician at lvl 9, and the bonus feat at lvl 14.
Force Strike: at lvl 7 and 9, the VG can choose to modify her force blast into one of the following effects.
Concussive Burst- the VG can strike the ground causing a 10ft burst (centered on the VG) of force dmg to all creatures in the radius (except the VG herself)
Shockwave- the VG slashes her weapon in the air, and a blast of force emminates from her and travels in a 30ft line or 15ft cone damaging all creatures in its path.
This ability replaces the spell tactician ability at lvl 7 and 13.
What do you think? Maybe a little OP? Does it preserve the flavor of the class and while augmenting the other two archetypes? Let me know how you think I should proceed from here and I will adjust fire accordingly.
Any takers?
I marked it for later but I don't have the pdf for the class in question yet so I can't offer any thoughts.
I marked it for later but I don't have the pdf for the class in question yet so I can't offer any thoughts.
To be totally honest, it's worth the buy if you Homebrew. The battle scion is a great player class, or more importantly (to me anyway) BBEG supreme!
Anyone else want to critique? I would hate this to fall into the black hole of obscurity that is the "conversion" thead's dismal archives.