As far as I've searched, maneuverability for flying creatures is mentioned in two contexts. In the Fly skill, it specifically calls out that maneuverability only gives you a bonus or penalty if you have a natural fly speed:
Creatures with a fly speed treat the Fly skill as a class skill. A creature with a natural fly speed receives a bonus (or penalty) on Fly skill checks depending on its maneuverability:
Whereas in the section under movement, the word natural isn't included, but it calls out that you should reference the Fly skill for more specific details:
Maneuverability: Creatures with a fly speed receive a bonus (or penalty) on all Fly checks depending on their maneuverability:
...
Note: See the Fly skill for further details.
Until recently, this seemed to be an open and shut case to me of specific trumps general, wherein the limitation of application of modifiers from maneuverability to natural fly speeds was intended to make fly checks more difficult for spellcasters and subjects of flight magic that generally grants bonuses. I'm all for requiring more investment from PCs to be a master of flying, so I don't mind ignoring the bonus. But then Shattered Star introduced a Lesser Wings of Flying that gives you a poor maneuverability, and I'm not as OK with ignoring what seems to be one of the intended restrictions on the item (it's also slower than the regular wings). So does maneuverability actually do anything if you aren't a natural flyer? It used to be hugely influential in 3.5, so are items like the Lesser Wings of Flying artifacts of our collective memory of those times?
What do you think?
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Keep in mind that you still need to make Fly skill checks to do certain maneuvers, whether magically flying or not:
DC 10 to Move less than half speed and remain flying.
DC 15 to Hover.
DC 15 to Turn greater than 45 degrees by spending 5 feet of movement.
DC 20 to Turn 180 degrees by spending 10 feet of movement.
DC 20 to Fly up at greater than 45 degree angle.
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Keep in mind that you still need to make Fly skill checks to do certain maneuvers, whether magically flying or not:
DC 10 to Move less than half speed and remain flying.
DC 15 to Hover.
DC 15 to Turn greater than 45 degrees by spending 5 feet of movement.
DC 20 to Turn 180 degrees by spending 10 feet of movement.
DC 20 to Fly up at greater than 45 degree angle.
Thanks for replying! That is quite clear in both sections, and it's not a part of my query. The question is purely as to whether someone flying by magic (not naturally) is taking those bonuses and penalties.
Every monster in the bestiary I see that flies by supernatural means gets the bonus. I really don't see them rewriting dozens of monsters so I think its a safe assumption that all flying gets the bonus/penalties of maneuverability.
Thanks for replying! That is quite clear in both sections, and it's not a part of my query. The question is purely as to whether someone flying by magic (not naturally) is taking those bonuses and penalties.
Those monsters still have a natural means of flight. Amusingly, the 'supernatural' tag for abilities is not the opposite of the game term 'natural'.
No. Natural ability is a game term. Its definition in pathfinder is: "This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like."
So by definition, if its supernatural, its not natural.
Huh, learn something new every day--that category does exist, but no creature in existence (to my knowledge) has a special ability that uses it. Even things like a dog's scent, a cheetah's sprint and a squid's ink cloud and jet are extraordinary. It seems like the category 'natural' is extraneous, then, as it is never used in favor of the extraordinary category. Your point is still quite a reasonable and valid one, however. I don't think it's open and shut, though, because flight is actually extraordinary and not natural when listed, so by that reckoning no creature has natural flight.
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bump
Is there a reason Paizo keeps including maneuverability in items and abilities that grant a fly speed if it has no mechanical relevance?
Note:
The Feather sub-domain is kind of boned if maneuverability only applies to natural flight:
Add Fly to your list of class skills. In addition, whenever you cast a spell that grants you a fly speed, your maneuverability increases by one step (up to perfect).
I will also mention that the PFS pregens are including the bonus, This is from the Slayer level 7 pregen:
"Zadim’s potion grants the drinker a 60 foot fly speed and a +6
bonus to Fly checks (+9 total for Zadim himself) for 5 minutes."
If you reverse engineer the +6 bonus, you get +2 from Caster level(5/2 rounded down) and +4 from good maneuverability. Zadim gets another +3 from his dexterity bonus.
I'm not saying that means one or the other is right, just what the writer of the pregens thought, and how they are told to be used there.
I may or may not have picked this thread to bump for that reason.
Given that the various flight spells (Fly, Overland Flight, Wind Walk) give maneuverability ratings, and that those ratings are essentially meaningless without the bonus, I suggest that it makes sense to apply said bonus.
Mind you, the Broom of Flying says it's Overland Flight (Good = +4) at CL9 (+9/2 = +4), total +8, whereas it says only +4.
Conversely, Wings of Flying are Average and CL10 for a quoted +5 which makes more sense. Lesser wings are Poor, CL10 with no listed bonus. Wings of the Gargoyle are Average, CL7 with no listed bonus. Wings of Heaven (paladin 3 spell) is Average +5 regardless of CL.
Some consistency would help, methinks.
I may or may not have picked this thread to bump for that reason.Is that a "Poster, FAQ thyself." sort of thing?
Best case he could be unsatisfied with the answer and start a fight with himself over stealth errata.
Huh, learn something new every day--that category does exist, but no creature in existence (to my knowledge) has a special ability that uses it. Even things like a dog's scent, a cheetah's sprint and a squid's ink cloud and jet are extraordinary. It seems like the category 'natural' is extraneous, then, as it is never used in favor of the extraordinary category. Your point is still quite a reasonable and valid one, however. I don't think it's open and shut, though, because flight is actually extraordinary and not natural when listed, so by that reckoning no creature has natural flight.No. Natural ability is a game term. Its definition in pathfinder is: "This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like."
So by definition, if its supernatural, its not natural.
Air elementals have a listed fly speed and perfect maneuverability.
I'm curious where natural ability is defined. I can't find it in the Core glossary nor the universal monster rules.
Huh, learn something new every day--that category does exist, but no creature in existence (to my knowledge) has a special ability that uses it. Even things like a dog's scent, a cheetah's sprint and a squid's ink cloud and jet are extraordinary. It seems like the category 'natural' is extraneous, then, as it is never used in favor of the extraordinary category. Your point is still quite a reasonable and valid one, however. I don't think it's open and shut, though, because flight is actually extraordinary and not natural when listed, so by that reckoning no creature has natural flight.No. Natural ability is a game term. Its definition in pathfinder is: "This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like."
So by definition, if its supernatural, its not natural.
Air elementals have a listed fly speed and perfect maneuverability.
I'm curious where natural ability is defined. I can't find it in the Core glossary nor the universal monster rules.
Ok, so anything that isn't (Ex), (Sp) or (Su) is Natural.
Spells are not (Ex), (Sp), or (Su). Therefore, fly speeds granted by spells are considered natural.
Whats weird, is then things like Sorcerers that grow wings as part of say, draconic heritage, are not natural, because they are a (Su) ability.
This is a little absurd, since Spell-Like abilities are not natural, but actual spells would be considered natural?