This is revised version of my prior attempt at a 20 level swashbuckler class from last year. While there was nothing fundamentally wrong with it, I found some things which still could be improved.
So, without further ado: The Swashbuckler
I'll address the most common complaint from my last go-around ahead of time:
No, a similarly quality equipped swashbuckler at most times does not outfight the fighter. A sword & board fighter ( the worst kind of fighter in terms of DPR ) came out ahead in terms of damage bonus and AC at every level for my last version of the swashbuckler, while the swashbuckler was be slightly ahead in terms of to-hit bonus. I've done the math pretty thoroughly on that at levels 4,8,12,16 and 20.
My new version gains a new ability, Lightning Strike, at level 15, which allows it to get another attack at its best attack bonus while doing a full attack, while dropping its attack bonus on all attacks by -2. This versions DPR is higher than the S&B fighter, while still being quite below a two-handed weapon fighter. I am a bit unsure if that can count as "overpowered", but the class desperately needed an attractive high-level ability to which people could work toward.
Given that most people never reach as high a level of play as that and that APs from Paizo normally end at levels 16-17, I think the ability will play out okay.
As for the second complaint I got, "the class is just better than the Fighter at non-fighty stuff", that's certainly true for every other frontline full base attack class, too.
And thirdly, no, getting both his class level on damage rolls and 1/2 his level of his dexterity bonus is also not overpowered. I've taken great pains to make sure that you cannot combine this bonus with Power Attack, Piranha Strike or a similar type of "attack bonus for damage" type of abilities and you only get it for your mainhand attack with finessable melee weapons. It balances out, it really does.
R&R as you wish, and if you like the class, you certainly got my permission to use it in your games.
Edit: Better yet as an alternative Gunslinger using melee weapons instead of the guns. You could create new and interesting Deeds to function like most of the class features.
this, a thousand times this!
Not really, I want an agility based melee frontline class and I hate the Gunslinger. Not seeing why I should make it an alternative Fighter, either, the classes are substantially different.
I like it, but I agree it's better as a fighter or cavalier archetype than as a completely separate class, perhaps.
Daring Strike: Too much, too fast. Give them dex-to-damage at 1st level, maybe, and postpone daring strike. I would use it like weapon training - take a feather from the Dragoon archetype, and make it +1 to hit and +2 to damage instead of +level to damage. Remember the paladin gets +level to damage as smite, and limited uses of it per day. +level is way, way too good on every attack, even if you are attacking with a toothpick.
We had that discussion the last time around, Dabbler, it's mathematically not too much. The lack of an power attack option and its limitation to one hand balance it out. A fighter at the same level will always be ahead in raw damage output ( at least until level 15 ).
You may have convinced yourself of this, but you didn't convince me. For one thing, Power Attack with one-handed weapons is a so-so option, I usually ignore it because you lose as much as you gain; one hand only just means you have a hand free for Crane Style or a shield and THAT's the balance to one hand only all on it's own. Fact is you are doing 2/3 of a smite with every attack. Wrap it up any other way you like, churn out what numbers you like, when you add in dex-to-damage at 1st level it's broken-good - not because of the high damage, but because dex is doing so much other heavy-lifting.
Aside from the Dexterity bonus to damage only adding up at the rate of 1 damage for every two levels in the class, I can't take anybody seriously who dose not factor in Power Attack for a fighting character based on strength.
On average +1 to hit is worth +2 to damage in DPR terms by way of securing more hits. Power Attack with single-handed weapons is +2 to damage per -1 to hit. Unless your target is very low AC or has DR, Power Attack loses you as much as it gains you. Against high AC targets it loses you DPR. Hence for a single-handed build Power Attack is only useful in certain situations or as an avenue to later feats. If your Dashing Strike contained a penalty to hit to counter the bonus to damage it would be balanced taking this into account, but it doesn't.
As for the dexterity gain, there's a reason Paizo added it as a weapon property rather than as a feat or other ability, that restricts it's gain to around level 8-10. While your swashy doesn't gain it all before that level, he's sitting pretty on a lot of it, with added bonus damage too well in excess of what any other class can gain on every hit against every foe at that level.
You are still getting +1 damage per level on top of this, the only thing a paladin gets extra is a small boost to hit and AC with smite, and that's restricted in uses per day. Ranger favoured enemy is the same, the best you can get is +10 vs a specific kind of enemy.
If this is meant to be an agile class, not an example of brute force, so maybe some of that bonus damage should be exchanged for precision and speed. DPR can stay respectable this way, but it isn't as broken and certainly doesn't look as broken.
You may want to consider making the daring strikes class level damage bonus precision based. I feel like it may be more appropriate if it only functioned on enemies that you could crit on. It would also be fairly thematic, as well as a way to mitigate some of the immense potential damage that a +20 gives.
I also feel as though the daring strike write up could be more concise. Its a bit wordy currently. I do appreciate the fact that you are trying to cover your bases though.
I'm not sure how I feel about dashing strike or heart strike. The charisma bonus thing feels tacked on if you know what I mean. There is very little emphasis on charisma for this class throughout a good deal of its career. I can see that charisma is a good idea thematically, I am just not as certain about this approach.
I would allow a player to use it in my home games.
It has elements similar to a class I've been tinkering with.
My class gains additional benefits and reduced penalties tied into fighting defensively.
I'm less concerned with how it looks like it works and more curious what play testing you've been able to do and how thats worked out.
On average +1 to hit is worth +2 to damage in DPR terms by way of securing more hits. Power Attack with single-handed weapons is +2 to damage per -1 to hit. Unless your target is very low AC or has DR, Power Attack loses you as much as it gains you. Against high AC targets it loses you DPR. Hence for a single-handed build Power Attack is only useful in certain situations or as an avenue to later feats.
Your argument works in just the same way on two-handed fighters, who heavily rely on Power Attack for damage output. Their to-hit numbers are exactly the same as with a S&B fighter.
If your Dashing Strike contained a penalty to hit to counter the bonus to damage it would be balanced taking this into account, but it doesn't.
I actually agree with this. There is a good argument to transfer the Dex-to-damage bonus over to Dashing Strike ( maybe even change it to be Cha-to-damage, to further enhance the relevance of that attribute for the class ) and make it a choice to activate, like Power Attack, but one thing speak against that. Which is, an 1-vs-4 exchange rate feels "wrong" to me. Maybe I am just conditioned to expect a 1-vs-2 rate. The damage bonus needs to be there in full, because I intend it to diffuse the need for Dervish Dance or the Agile weapon enchantment for this class.
As for the dexterity gain, there's a reason Paizo added it as a weapon property rather than as a feat or other ability, that restricts it's gain to around level 8-10. While your swashy doesn't gain it all before that level, he's sitting pretty on a lot of it, with added bonus damage too well in excess of what any other class can gain on every hit against every foe at that level.
Aside from Dervish Dance belying that argument of yours ( which you can get at level 2-3, IIRC ), Power Attack is a staple feat for every strength based class, your argument against it non-withstanding.
I actually intended for the "Dex-to-damage" component to be a high-level ability, gained at level 10, but I was talked out of it by another person I showed the class before putting it online. He felt that the sudden +5 damage bonus was too sudden. Another good argument against putting the ability into the high levels is that by this point someone playing the class would have already chosen Dervish Dance/the Agile weapon enchantment and would have to deal with a class feature which does nothing for her/him.
You are still getting +1 damage per level on top of this, the only thing a paladin gets extra is a small boost to hit and AC with smite, and that's restricted in uses per day. Ranger favoured enemy is the same, the best you can get is +10 vs a specific kind of enemy.
Paladins get a bazillion other great things, most of which outshine the other class abilities of the Swashbuckler greatly. And they get Power Attack.
If this is meant to be an agile class, not an example of brute force, so maybe some of that bonus damage should be exchanged for precision and speed. DPR can stay respectable this way, but it isn't as broken and certainly doesn't look as broken.
And it isn't broken now. You discount Power Attack as a factor, which I think is ludicrous. DPR against the standard AC values from the Bestiary bears out that the S & B Fighter stays ahead during all levels prior to Lightning Strike at level 15.
You may want to consider making the daring strikes class level damage bonus precision based. I feel like it may be more appropriate if it only functioned on enemies that you could crit on. It would also be fairly thematic, as well as a way to mitigate some of the immense potential damage that a +20 gives.
I dislike precision damage, since it screws over too many classes unfairly. And the +20 is not as immense as you think, since you can't use Power Attack.
I also feel as though the daring strike write up could be more concise. Its a bit wordy currently. I do appreciate the fact that you are trying to cover your bases though.
I know it is a bit unwieldy, but compared to, say, the Alchemists "Alchemy" or "Bomb" class features, it is still very short. The need to cover my bases had priority here.
I'm not sure how I feel about dashing strike or heart strike. The charisma bonus thing feels tacked on if you know what I mean. There is very little emphasis on charisma for this class throughout a good deal of its career. I can see that charisma is a good idea thematically, I am just not as certain about this approach.
Charisma as a major stat for a physical activity is a an iffy issue, I agree. But tying the stat to Intelligence, like the Duelist does, misses IMO the core of what a swashbuckler is supposed to represent. I think that level four is soon enough to make the attribute an early factor of the class and the class skill list reflects the charisma focus, too.
I would allow a player to use it in my home games.
It has elements similar to a class I've been tinkering with.
My class gains additional benefits and reduced penalties tied into fighting defensively.
That sounds interesting, but I think I got my bases covered there with the Crane Style feats ( which are very attractive for this class, although they were not intended to be so, since I wrote the class originally before they came out ) and that Weapon Expertise is on the bonus feat list. As it is, my sample character I am going to run in one of my groups I GM can up her AC by 6 points when fighting defensively with Combat Expertise anc Crane Style, and by 7 next level.
I'm less concerned with how it looks like it works and more curious what play testing you've been able to do and how thats worked out.
Playtesting hasn't happened so far, it's all been theorycrafting and number crunching. I'll introduce the class tomorrow in one of my groups, where through some major magic intervention I'll change an important NPCs class levels. We'll see how she comes out in the end.
On average +1 to hit is worth +2 to damage in DPR terms by way of securing more hits. Power Attack with single-handed weapons is +2 to damage per -1 to hit. Unless your target is very low AC or has DR, Power Attack loses you as much as it gains you. Against high AC targets it loses you DPR. Hence for a single-handed build Power Attack is only useful in certain situations or as an avenue to later feats.Your argument works in just the same way on two-handed fighters, who heavily rely on Power Attack for damage output. Their to-hit numbers are exactly the same as with a S&B fighter.
Two handed fighters gain +3 damage per -1 to hit, making Power Attacking mathematically relevant at most ACs they face. S&B fighters, or any other TWFers, do not. They get +2 per -1 with their main hand, which is on average a break even on DPS, and +1 per -1 on their off-hand, which is a LOSS in DPS.
If you are TWFer Power Attack is irrelevant unless you want the follow-on feats.
Power Attack is simply not mathematically relevant to this discussion.
If your Dashing Strike contained a penalty to hit to counter the bonus to damage it would be balanced taking this into account, but it doesn't.I actually agree with this. There is a good argument to transfer the Dex-to-damage bonus over to Dashing Strike ( maybe even change it to be Cha-to-damage, to further enhance the relevance of that attribute for the class ) and make it a choice to activate, like Power Attack, but one thing speak against that. Which is, an 1-vs-4 exchange rate feels "wrong" to me. Maybe I am just conditioned to expect a 1-vs-2 rate. The damage bonus needs to be there in full, because I intend it to diffuse the need for Dervish Dance or the Agile weapon enchantment for this class.
I experimented with Int-to-damage, and that worked pretty well. After all the idea is a fighter who is clever and quick rather than big and strong.
That doesn't change the fact that for a one-handed weapon user, foregoing Power Attack is not actually giving up on much if anything when it comes down to DPS.
As for the dexterity gain, there's a reason Paizo added it as a weapon property rather than as a feat or other ability, that restricts it's gain to around level 8-10. While your swashy doesn't gain it all before that level, he's sitting pretty on a lot of it, with added bonus damage too well in excess of what any other class can gain on every hit against every foe at that level.Aside from Dervish Dance belying that argument of yours ( which you can get at level 2-3, IIRC ), Power Attack is a staple feat for every strength based class, your argument against it non-withstanding.
True, but as I said, Power Attack is not mathematically relevant. You may as well have excluded the class from having Skill Focus for all the difference it makes.
I actually intended for the "Dex-to-damage" component to be a high-level ability, gained at level 10, but I was talked out of it by another person I showed the class before putting it online. He felt that the sudden +5 damage bonus was too sudden. Another good argument against putting the ability into the high levels is that by this point someone playing the class would have already chosen Dervish Dance/the Agile weapon enchantment and would have to deal with a class feature which does nothing for her/him.
I actually like the way you have done the dex-to-damage, alone it's not an issue. That isn't my main concern though, my main concern is +1 damage per level. It turns the class into a DPR overkill. While it's true paladins get a lot, there is a reason their sole directly offensive ability, smite evil, is so restricted: it's called 'I win' against most things they face.
I'm going to crunch some DPR numbers and post them up - watch this space.
On average +1 to hit is worth +2 to damage in DPR terms by way of securing more hits. Power Attack with single-handed weapons is +2 to damage per -1 to hit. Unless your target is very low AC or has DR, Power Attack loses you as much as it gains you. Against high AC targets it loses you DPR. Hence for a single-handed build Power Attack is only useful in certain situations or as an avenue to later feats.Your argument works in just the same way on two-handed fighters, who heavily rely on Power Attack for damage output. Their to-hit numbers are exactly the same as with a S&B fighter.Two handed fighters gain +3 damage per -1 to hit, making Power Attacking mathematically relevant at most ACs they face. S&B fighters, or any other TWFers, do not. They get +2 per -1 with their main hand, which is on average a break even on DPS, and +1 per -1 on their off-hand, which is a LOSS in DPS.
If you are TWFer Power Attack is irrelevant unless you want the follow-on feats.
Power Attack is simply not mathematically relevant to this discussion.
If your Dashing Strike contained a penalty to hit to counter the bonus to damage it would be balanced taking this into account, but it doesn't.I actually agree with this. There is a good argument to transfer the Dex-to-damage bonus over to Dashing Strike ( maybe even change it to be Cha-to-damage, to further enhance the relevance of that attribute for the class ) and make it a choice to activate, like Power Attack, but one thing speak against that. Which is, an 1-vs-4 exchange rate feels "wrong" to me. Maybe I am just conditioned to expect a 1-vs-2 rate. The damage bonus needs to be there in full, because I intend it to diffuse the need for Dervish Dance or the Agile weapon enchantment for this class.I experimented with Int-to-damage, and that worked pretty well. After all the idea is a fighter who is clever and quick rather than big and strong.
That...
I think we won't come to an agreement anyway, since I regard your statements regarding Power Attack to be ludicrous. Since Power Attack is one of the major damage contributors of the game and to-hit bonuses are pretty easy to get with a balanced group, your argument simply does not work.
I'll see, however, if I can rustle up a version of the class which uses Dashing Strike's Cha-to-hit bonus as a direct convertible to damage in the vein of Power Attack, only with a 1 to 4 ratio. Maybe with a new name. ^^
And if you post numbers, please do not bother to include a fighter without Power Attack as proof that the level-to-hit bonus is overpowered. It's ridiculous argumentation. If you build a fighter without Power Attack, you are not building him for damage.
Here are the changed versions of Daring Strike and Dashing Strike. I've renamed Dashing Strike into "Panache", following the advice of a friend.
These are just some ideas I am throwing at the wall, not fixed changes for the existing class.
Daring Strike (Ex): At 1st level or higher, a swashbuckler gains the ability to strike daringly and may apply her class level as a bonus to her damage rolls with any light melee weapon, as well as any main-hand melee weapon which can be used with Weapon Finesse. A swashbuckler cannot use this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor. When making a daring strike with her main hand, a swashbuckler cannot apply the to-hit bonus of this ability to attacks with an off-hand weapon or use a shield other than a buckler. This class feature cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat chain or any other similar feat which adds damage in exchange for a bonus to attack, like Piranha Strike.
Panache (Ex): At 4th level, a swashbuckler becomes able to place her finesse attacks where it counts due to her intimidating prowess. For every four levels in the Swashbuckler class, she may apply +1 of her Charisma bonus (if any) as a bonus on attack rolls with any light melee weapon, as well as any main-hand weapon which can be used with Weapon Finesse. Additionally, she can choose to exchange this bonus on her melee attack rolls to substitute up to half her class level of her Strength bonus for her Dexterity bonus on all melee damage rolls with any light melee weapon, as well as any main-hand melee weapon which can be used with Weapon Finesse. This completely negates her Strength bonus on damage rolls. A swashbuckler cannot use this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load. When using panache with her main hand, a swashbuckler cannot apply the to-hit or damage bonus of this ability to attacks with an off-hand weapon or use a shield other than a buckler. This class feature cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat chain or any other similar feat which adds damage in exchange for a bonus to attack, like Piranha Strike. This damage bonus does not stack with other methods which exchange the Strength attribute for another attribute in regards to melee damage.
Another possibility would be to limit the damage-per-level bonus to 1/2 damage per level, but re-allow Power Attack/Piranha Attack. In that case I'd once again uncouple the dex-to-damage component of the class from the to-hit bonus of Panache/Dashing Strike, because I don't want it to suddenly hit worse than other full BAB-melee characters using Power Attack. I'd also move it back to Daring Strike.
I am skeptical about that approach, though, since I'd prefer the class not to rely on strength based feats. OTOH, it would neutralize the problem that Dexterity as the main attribute is just too strong and therefore force players to branch out a bit in their attributes, without being such a crippling cost that it is impossible to do so. I think the biggest argument against it is that it would make the Rapier sub-optimal, because using Piranha Strike with a Kukri instead of Power Attack with a Rapier synergizes better. And for a class which took the Three Musketeers and Inigo Montoya as its inspiration, I don't think that is really acceptable.
Here is that new version. Take a look if you like it more.
Actually I think you are onto a good idea there. I've just crunched some numbers here...
Let’s take 10th level as a yardstick as the DPR Olympics do, and compare a strength-based standard fighter, a strength-based paladin, and your swashbuckler. We'll stack him against CR6, 8, 10, 12 and 14 foes. Why? Because you never just face just CR appropriate foes, you face mooks and bosses too.
I'm going to assume 22 in the main ability score, a 16 in secondary scores if applicable. I'll calculate the fighter using Power Attack and not using it - the main point is to see the difference this makes in his DPR.
Weapons and feats: I will assume that all have Weapon Focus (appropriate weapon – scimitar for both normal fighters, rapier for the swashy), and Improved Critical. The fighter will also have Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization. All weapons will be +2 or equivalent. Because all have the same threat range, I will ignore critical for this analysis.
Now starting with the fighter, he will have an attack bonus of +10 BAB +2 feats +2 weapon training +2 weapon +6 strength = +22. Power attacking this will be +19. Damage will be 1d6+6 strength +2 weapon +2 weapon training +2 feat = 1d6+12, 1d6+18 with Power Attack.
The paladin will have +10 BAB +1 feat +2 weapon +6 strength = +19. Smiting will take this to +22. Power Attack will adjust both to +16 and +19 respectively. Damage-wise the paladin is 1d6+6 strength +2 weapon = 1d6+8. 1d6+14 Power Attacking, 1d6+18 smiting, 1d6+24 smiting and Power Attacking.
The Swashbuckler can (and should) have an agile weapon, so he will have +10 BAB +1 feat +2 Panache +1 weapon +6 dexterity = +20. Damage will be 1d6+6 dexterity +10 Daring +1 weapon = 1d6+17.
Now let’s look at our target ACs: 19, 21, 24, 27, 29. For the moment we will assume they do not have buffs on them.
Fighter, no power attack:
Vs AC 19: 95% + 95% = 1.9 hit per round, at 15.5 per hit = 29.45
Vs AC 21: 95% + 85% = 1.8 hit per round, at 15.5 per hit = 27.9
Vs AC 24: 95% + 70% = 1.65 hit per round, at 15.5 per hit = 25.575
Vs AC 27: 80% + 55% = 1.35 hit per round, at 15.5 per hit = 20.925
Vs AC 29: 70% + 45% = 1.15 hit per round, at 15.5 per hit = 17.825
Fighter, Power Attack:
Vs AC 19: 95% + 80% = 1.75 hit per round, at 21.5 per hit = 37.625
Vs AC 21: 95% + 70% = 1.65 hit per round, at 21.5 per hit = 32.25
Vs AC 24: 80% + 55% = 1.35 hit per round, at 21.5 per hit = 29.025
Vs AC 27: 65% + 40% = 1.05 hit per round, at 21.5 per hit = 22.575
Vs AC 29: 55% + 30% = 0.85 hit per round, at 21.5 per hit = 18.275
At the higher ACs, the ones you really need to beat, Power Attack is making very little difference. If you were TWFing, your base to hit would be 2 worse and the crossover point between Power Attack being a benefit and Power Attack being a hindrance would be close. You would also need to invest more in dexterity to the detriment of strength, reducing attack bonus and damage still further.
Paladin, no smite & no PA:
Vs AC 19: 95% + 80% = 1.75 hit per round, at 11.5 per hit = 20.125
Vs AC 21: 95% + 70% = 1.65 hit per round, at 11.5 per hit = 18.975
Vs AC 24: 80% + 55% = 1.35 hit per round, at 11.5 per hit = 15.525
Vs AC 27: 65% + 40% = 1.05 hit per round, at 11.5 per hit = 12.075
Vs AC 29: 55% + 30% = 0.85 hit per round, at 11.5 per hit = 9.775
Pretty much as expected.
Paladin with Power Attack:
Vs AC 19: 90% + 65% = 1.55 hit per round, at 17.5 per hit = 27.125
Vs AC 21: 80% + 55% = 1.35 hit per round, at 17.5 per hit = 23.625
Vs AC 24: 65% + 40% = 1.05 hit per round, at 17.5 per hit = 18.375
Vs AC 27: 50% + 25% = 0.75 hit per round, at 17.5 per hit = 13.125
Vs AC 29: 40% + 15% = 0.55 hit per round, at 17.5 per hit = 9.625
And you can see the crossover point emerging where the paladin loses more than he gains from power attack at the higher ACs.
Paladin smiting, no Power Attack:
Vs AC 19: 95% + 95% = 1.9 hit per round, at 21.5 per hit = 40.85
Vs AC 21: 95% + 85% = 1.8 hit per round, at 21.5 per hit = 38.7
Vs AC 24: 95% + 70% = 1.65 hit per round, at 21.5 per hit = 32.5
Vs AC 27: 80% + 55% = 1.35 hit per round, at 21.5 per hit = 29.025
Vs AC 29: 70% + 45% = 1.15 hit per round, at 21.5 per hit = 24.725
Paladin smiting with Power Attack:
Vs AC 19: 95% + 80% = 1.75 hit per round, at 27.5 per hit = 48.125
Vs AC 21: 95% + 70% = 1.65 hit per round, at 27.5 per hit = 45.375
Vs AC 24: 80% + 55% = 1.35 hit per round, at 27.5 per hit = 37.125
Vs AC 27: 65% + 40% = 1.05 hit per round, at 27.5 per hit = 28.875
Vs AC 29: 55% + 30% = 0.85 hit per round, at 27.5 per hit = 23.375
And here you can see the crossover very clearly: the paladin against greater than CR foes is better off NOT power attacking, but just smiting.
Swashy:
Vs AC 19: 95% + 85% = 1.8 hit per round, at 20.5 per hit = 36.9
Vs AC 21: 95% + 75% = 1.7 hit per round, at 20.5 per hit = 34.85
Vs AC 24: 85% + 60% = 1.45 hit per round, at 20.5 per hit = 29.725
Vs AC 27: 70% + 45% = 1.15 hit per round, at 20.5 per hit = 23.575
Vs AC 29: 60% + 35% = 0.95 hit per round, at 20.5 per hit = 19.475
You can see that the Swashbuckler is clearly out-damaging the Power Attacking fighter, thanks to Panache. He’d be slightly behind without it. He is, however, WAY ahead of the paladin power attacking without smite, who barely makes a difference at the higher ACs. What is more, from the Paladin’s stats you can see that even if the Swashbuckler could use power attack, against CR-equivalent or better foes he would gain no substantial advantage. Giving up Power Attack is therefore giving up nothing, and Panache and Daring strike combine to give you more than Power Attack at no penalty.
Power Attack is OK, but one-handed it’s no great shakes: the lower your attack bonus, the less it works for you, the higher your base damage, the less it benefits you. Worse, just one buff spell on your foe and the benefit is outweighed by the loss. As for TWFing, don’t bother: TWFers lower their attack bonus for both weapons, and the benefit on the off-hand weapon is even less than on the main-hand. Dumping strength for dexterity to TWF reduces the damage bonus and hence increases the potential benefit for Power Attack, but reduces you hit chances still further increasing the effect of the TWF penalty. TWF and Power Attack just don’t go well together except against very feeble foes.
My suggestion: Keep Panache, but reduce Daring Strike to +1 per two levels, it’s more than enough given the other damage bonuses you can rack up. Add features that improve defenses, mobility, and maneuvers instead. Don’t try and beat the fighter at dealing damage across the board – that is the fighter’s thing, it’s what he does, and you do not want to make him redundant. Instead try to add something to the class that is thematic with the nimble swordsman.
Some critiques on your methodology: A fighter at level ten without Gloves of Dueling is not doing it right. Giving the Swashbuckler an agile weapon seems redundant if we go with Dexterity to damage at 1/2 class level, so the numbers should be rather that the Swashbuckler has a +2 weapon and +5 to damage through Dexterity. The damage bonus stays the same, though, because of the weapon upgrade, while to-hit goes up by one.
As for the rest, your math methods were more sophisticated compared to the rather simplistic "what is happening at the appropiate CR?" method I used, so I concede the argument. I still think that including Power Attack is an essential measuring tool, because not only can opponents cast buff spells, so can your allies ( or you yourself if you are the Paladin ( or Ranger ), which helps out a lot to even the odds ). I always find DPR statistics which never take the group factor into account bemusing, because situations where you go unbuffed solo against a boss monster very seldomly happen in-game.
Anyway, I think I'll make my newest version of the Swashbuckler the "official" one for the time. I'll look if any defensive mechanisms can be added ( I think I got the movement factor covered with Steady Stance, Fleet of Foot, Acrobatic Charge and Fast Acrobatics ), but if they are, they'll go into the high level tier, as the lower levels of the class are already pretty loaded.
And actually there are enough defensive feats around ( Crane Style feat line, Dodge, Combat Expertise, Mobility ) that I think the bonus and normal feats can take care of that aspect. The AC of the class gets pretty impressive at the higher levels, anyway, and doesn't start out that badly, either.
Plugging in the new numbers for your DPR analysis the Swashbuckler comes out in this way:
The Swashbuckler does not need an agile weapon, so he will have +10 BAB +1 feat + 2 Panache +2 weapon +6 dexterity = +21. Damage is 1d6+ 5 dexterity + 5 Daring + 6 PA + 2 weapon = 1d6+12.
For the power attack versions, stats are +10 BAB + 1 feat + 2 Panache + 2 weapon +6 dexterity = +18. Damage is at 1d6+ 5 dexterity +5 Daring + 6 PA + 2 weapon = 1d6+18.
Swashbucker without Power Attack:
Vs AC 19: 95% + 90% = 1.85 hit per round, at 15.5 per hit = 28.675
Vs AC 21: 95% + 80% = 1.75 hit per round, at 15.5 per hit = 27.125
Vs AC 24: 90% + 65% = 1.55 hit per round, at 15.5 per hit = 24.025
Vs AC 27: 75% + 50% = 1.25 hit per round, at 15.5 per hit = 19,375
Vs AC 29: 65% + 40% = 1.05 hit per round, at 15.5 per hit = 16.275
Swashbucker with Power Attack:
Vs AC 19: 95% + 70% = 1.65 hit per round, at 21.5 per hit = 35.475
Vs AC 21: 85% + 60% = 1.45 hit per round, at 21.5 per hit = 31.175
Vs AC 24: 70% + 45% = 1.15 hit per round, at 21.5 per hit = 24.725
Vs AC 27: 55% + 30% = 0.85 hit per round, at 21.5 per hit = 18.275
Vs AC 29: 40% + 15% = 0.55 hit per round, at 21.5 per hit = 11.825
Hm, that seems a bit on the low end at the high AC levels, but the rest holds up. But I think overall it balances out with the other toys the Swashbuckler gets.
Alright, here is the latest revision of the class. I added a new ability which works both offensively and defensively ( shamelessly cribbed from the Aldori Swordlord prestige class, although less powerful than the one described there ): Shatter Confidence.
You can download the file here.
Thanks to Dabbler for helping me out with the numbers and tolerating my temperamental outbursts.
I thought it was fine in the OP link, albeit a bit front-loaded (but dex warriors suck in PF, so I don't mind if there's an uber dip for them). I guess the damage change is pretty inconsequential, though.
I would make Daredevil +1 per class level. Even then, you'll probably fail a fair amount of time tumbling, CMD is just crazy. I'd limit it to balance and tumbling uses so as to not infringe on the monk's turf, maybe. I really don't care, but some might. They care so very much about stepping on the fighter's toes, after all.
Good job, though. You focused mostly on fixing the numbers, which was necessary given how bad dex fighters are. It could do with a few more interesting/"flavor" abilities to give it more of an identity as well, IMO.
EDIT: I mis-read. You only get to apply dex to damage in place of str up to a limit of half your class level? That's terrible! At least around level 5 or whatever you consider to be the point where "it's no longer a dip", make it hav no cap any more.... And the way it's currently written, the class for the first 10 levels at least is basically getting +2 damage on even levels, +0 damage on odd levels, which is a really awkward way to progress it.
Even with such a change, at low levels, that makes the damage pretty godawful... Like... d6+2 at level 2...
I think Daredevil is fine. There are enough ways to get a good bonus on Acrobatics, like Boots of Elvenkind or Daredevil Boots.
As for flavor abilities, the movement related abilities were supposed to show in which direction I wanted the class to go. As it is, the class is uniquely suited to maneuvers of derring-do, swinging from chandeliers and such. The new addition of Shatter Confidence and Lightning Strike do their own to distinguish it into a class for fast and charismatic characters.
As for the damage bonus, the restriction needed to be in there to avoid dipping just one level into the class to get an awesome set of abilities and dipping out again. The numbers are not all that terrible now, IMO, because if you take Power Attack at first level, you can get a decent 1d6+4 damage out of it. The "+2 at every second level" jump seemed a bit awkward to me, too, but making it into a "+1 at every level" progression seemed flat to me, especially after the last revisions. I'd rather have the awkwardness than the flatness. The only concern I have is that it takes until fourth level for the next big jump, but Inquisitors have to deal with about the same problem, only that for them it is fifth level.
As it is, I think I'll keep the class the way it is for now.
d10 HD
Base 4 Skills
Two good saves
Full BAB
Scaling Dodge Bonus
I mean, is there anything this Class can't do?
Edit: lose something! Dumb down the HD or lose one of the saves or go with a 3/4 BAB. What you've done is pulled all the good stuff together into one class. It's just too good, man.
d10 HD
Base 4 Skills
Two good saves
Full BAB
Scaling Dodge BonusI mean, is there anything this Class can't do?
d10 HD
Base 6 skillsTwo good saves
Full BAB
An extra set of actions per round, err....I mean "loyal animal friend"
SPELLCASTING
I mean, is there anything Ranger can't do?
d10 HD
Base 6 skills
Two good saves
Full BAB
An extra set of actions per round, err....I mean "loyal animal friend"
SPELLCASTING
Spells don't even come into play until 4th level, maybe. Hunter's Bond is nice, but it's not even close to the Druid AC. Ranger abilities are at least situational, or highly controlled (fighting syles.) They're simply not always on. For that too change, the Ranger at least has to spend some gold.
In short, nice try; but Ranger at least has built-in limits. This class just hands out DEX to damage, which is beyond huge.
Dawnflower Dervish Bard hands out FULL dex to damage *and* attack at level 1. And has a full CL and up to 6th level spells, and potent self-buffing inspire courage (double the normal bonus).
As for ranger, one feat makes it have the same level as a druid for the animal, and until 4th level, the OP's class is only getting +1 dex to damage. So not sure spells not being until 4th has to do with anything...
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Thanks, StreamOfTheSky, you saved me some typing. :) The Ranger was indeed my measuring stick in what I considered to be feasible. Allow me to add for Ioaba that the Dexterity to damage bonus scales slowly up and does not apply immediately. Agile weapons and Dervish Dance have the same effect, only that they work at full power as soon as they are obtained.
@Loyal Battle Monkey: Normal feats? I haven't build archetypes or anything.
@rainzax: Thanks, that's an artifact from the prior versions. I'll get to it.
Some critiques on your methodology: A fighter at level ten without Gloves of Dueling is not doing it right.
Good point, I am always forgetting them.
Giving the Swashbuckler an agile weapon seems redundant if we go with Dexterity to damage at 1/2 class level, so the numbers should be rather that the Swashbuckler has a +2 weapon and +5 to damage through Dexterity. The damage bonus stays the same, though, because of the weapon upgrade, while to-hit goes up by one.
True, and that improves the DPR somewhat.
As for the rest, your math methods were more sophisticated compared to the rather simplistic "what is happening at the appropiate CR?" method I used, so I concede the argument. I still think that including Power Attack is an essential measuring tool, because not only can opponents cast buff spells, so can your allies ( or you yourself if you are the Paladin ( or Ranger ), which helps out a lot to even the odds ). I always find DPR statistics which never take the group factor into account bemusing, because situations where you go unbuffed solo against a boss monster very seldomly happen in-game.
It certainly does, but enemies can buff too, so I find it easiest to assume both factors cancel out. Besides, what is important is not the relative power of class vs CR (because DMs can, will, and do play with this), but comparing class to class. If you are good unbuffed, you will be that much better buffed.
While I think Power Attack is important to take into account, I don't think that, if you are not a two-handed specialist, it's a decisive factor. It's an also-ran feat. If you are TWFing, it's a trap.
Anyway, I think I'll make my newest version of the Swashbuckler the "official" one for the time. I'll look if any defensive mechanisms can be added ( I think I got the movement factor covered with Steady Stance, Fleet of Foot, Acrobatic Charge and Fast Acrobatics ), but if they are, they'll go into the high level tier, as the lower levels of the class are already pretty loaded.
And actually there are enough defensive feats around ( Crane Style feat line, Dodge, Combat Expertise, Mobility ) that I think the bonus and normal feats can take care of that aspect. The AC of the class gets pretty impressive at the higher levels, anyway, and doesn't start out that badly, either.Plugging in the new numbers for your DPR analysis the Swashbuckler comes out in this way:
** spoiler omitted **...
]
Yes that's my experience of Power Attack: one handed, at high levels you gain as much as you lose. Against mooks you do massive damage, but do you need to? After all, they are mooks. Against bosses, you lose out with Power Attack, and those are the fights that really count.
This is why in one-handed builds, I simply don't consider Power Attack a 'must have' feat.
Thanks once again for the help with the number crunching, Dabbler. I hope you like the new version, with the new ability.
I like it, I'd play this class. My only question: Do the bonus feats require prerequisites, or are you able to take them without prerequisites?
I think I put that at the bottom of the bonus feat list, they do require their prerequisites.
I'll give this one bump before it disappears into the great yonder of page two and rest.
The last and final version: The Swashbuckler
Enjoy!
Some minor grammatical corrections ( added a "the" to Lightning Strike, changed "handguns" to "one-handed firearms" in the weapon proficiencies and changed "taken" to "chosen" for the list of bonus feats ).
Available as a PDF here.
A minor change to the bonus feat list.
Available as a PDF here.