He has to put two hands on the weapon while mounted to get the bonus. Its certainly possible.
Lances have a special rule that allows them to be used in one hand while mounted. This changes them into a one handed weapon for all intents and purposes as near as I can tell. Why is he trying to geek something that's already a very powerful choice?
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If you only have one hand on then you do not get the 2 handed bonus.
Using two lances is patently ridiculous and attempting it should be met with 1000 lashes from a wet noodle and then a punch in the throat.
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If you had a size L lance, could you use it on horse back with two hands?
Even counting this rule?
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
Even if the weapon would be classified as a size L two-handed weapon (which pushes it off the scale for use by a medium size creature)?
This is like the reverse of the Bastard Sword. No matter what you do to the sword, it is classified as a one-handed weapon form the rules point of view.
If you say that the lance is a one handed weapon on horseback (or classified as a one-handed), then the two-handed fighter gets no bonuses with it, as their rules state:
Some fighters focus their efforts on finding the biggest, heaviest, most imposing weapon they can find and training to manage and harness the weight of their massive weapons for maximum impact. These fighting school benefits only apply when using two-handed weapons.
Not "when using two-handed weapons, or one-handed weapons in two-hands". The Two-handed fighter, per RAW, cannot use their abilities with a longsword wielded in two hands.
Overhand Chop (Ex): At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls. This ability replaces armor training 1.
Weapon Training (Ex): As the fighter class feature, but the bonuses only apply when wielding two-handed melee weapons.
Backswing (Ex): At 7th level, when a two-handed fighter makes a full attack with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for all attacks after the first. This ability replaces armor training 2.
Piledriver (Ex): At 11th level, as a standard action, a two-handed fighter can make a single melee attack with a two-handed weapon. If the attack hits, he may make a bull rush or trip combat maneuver against the target of his attack as a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. This ability replaces armor training 3.
Greater Power Attack (Ex): At 15th level, when using Power Attack with a two-handed melee weapon, the bonus damage from Power Attack is doubled (+100%) instead of increased by half (+50%). This ability replaces armor training 4.
Devastating Blow (Ex): At 19th level, as a standard action, a two-handed fighter may make a single melee attack with a two-handed weapon at a –5 penalty. If the attack hits, it is treated as a critical threat. Special weapon abilities that activate only on a critical hit do not activate if this critical hit is confirmed. This ability replaces armor mastery.
So, either the lance on horseback does not qualify at all, (since it is now one-handed), or it qualifies just fine.
Note, I am not saying that this is not cheese, but that the rules may need to be FAQ'd for clarity when dealing with a Lance.
you CAN use a lance two handed if you choose, you just have the option to use one handed.
Lance: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.
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Melee weapons have a category based on the effort required for use: "Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon."
A Fighter with Two-Weapon Archetype gets benefits when using a two-handed weapon. The first sentence is fluff, while the second sentence is crunchy rule: "Some fighters focus their efforts on finding the biggest, heaviest, most imposing weapon they can find and training to manage and harness the weight of their massive weapons for maximum impact. These fighting school benefits only apply when using two-handed weapons."
A lance is a two-handed weapon. It can be used with one hand when mounted: "While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand."
On the crunchy side, to gain the benefit of the archetype, the character must be using a weapon that is considered a two-handed weapon. Such a character doesn't gain the benefit when using an undersized great axe or an appropriately sized longsword with two hands. He would get it if using an oversized longword, or even a doubly oversized light weapon such as a dagger.
Lance is a bit of a corner case because of its unique property to be used one hand when mounted. Given that the effort category goes to the amount of effort required for use, this points me toward the idea that a lance has an effective effort category of one-hand when used with one hand while mounted.
It's unclear, and with a GM who shares his opinion and desire to explore the freakish areas that live in the corners where the rules are unclear, subject to loophole interpretation, and the like, everyone will enjoy rolling a big number. In such a game, seems like NPCs would use such loophole construction as well. "Why, yes. Indeed it is an enlarged giant with two-handed fighter archetype, Ride-by Attack and Spirited Charge, etc. Standard build, donchaknow?"
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Kazaan, by that extension, a fighter with two-handed archetype applies the archetype on a bite. There is no need to look to expand the specifics of a feat to come to a conclusion that contradicts the specific text.
Power Attack spells out when you get extra damage. The two-handed archetype spells out when you get the benefit of the archetype.
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I must be in the small minority, but as the Lance is a two handed weapon that has an exception clause I allow it to be treated as two handed for all purposes when being used while mounted and in one hand. The number of encounters where a Paladin, Cavalier, or other mounted melee class gets to charge more than once are small. Let you Players roll 12d6 and add a ginormous number to that!
As a primary GM of 20+ years it is my opinion you need to let a fighter type roll as many dice as casters do on occasion.
--We will, we will... Vrock you!
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RAW--Yes, a lance remains a "Two-Handed Weapon" regardless of how you wield it. Therefore, you can apply the bonuses for the Two-Handed Fighter Archetype to a lance, even if wielding it in one hand.
RAI--Hellz No. It's fairly obvious that no one EVER intended the Two-Handed Fighter to dual-wield lances and inflict that sort of damage. Or to use 2 small Greatswords (both still Two-Handed Weapons by classification) as a medium character and really cheese them out.
Trying to settle a debate between myself and a friend.
He plans to make use of the two-handed fighter archetype, and apply the bonuses of the class to wielding lances on horseback.
When you wield a lance on horseback with one hand, is it continued to be treated as a two handed weapon for bonuses, or is it considered to be a one handed weapon?
You cannot wield a lance with two hands to get add'l damage while on horseback. The horse's head gets in the way of wielding the lance properly.
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2) I do believe that at least one dev has said as much for pounce and the like, but I do not know if it has made its way to official errata or just a board post. Sorry I don't have a link to it. The idea was basically that the bonus was there because the charge was fully behind that one attack, not a bunch of iterative attacks.-James
Just answering this one. there is a FAQ on something similar to this, but I am not sure if it qualifies here.
Lance: If I have the pounce ability and I charge with a lance, do my iterative lance attacks get the lance's extra damage multiplier from charging?
No, for two reasons.
One, because a lance only deals extra damage when you’re riding a charging mount—not when you are charging.
Two, even if you have an unusual combination of rules that allows you to ignore the above limitation, it doesn’t makes sense that those iterative attacks gain the damage bonus. To make that second attack, you have to pull the lance back and stab forward again, and that stab doesn’t have the benefit of the charge’s momentum. (The Core Rulebook doesn’t state that you only get the damage multiplier on the first attack with a lance because when the Core Rulebook was published, there was no way for a PC to charge and get multiple attacks with a weapon in the same round, so that combination didn’t need to be addressed.)
—Sean K Reynolds, 03/01/12
I think that both lances in the dual wield would get the bonus on their first hit, since you do not have to "pull back" the second to stab with it the first time.
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If you only have one hand on then you do not get the 2 handed bonus.
Using two lances is patently ridiculous and attempting it should be met with 1000 lashes from a wet noodle and then a punch in the throat.
If someone tried to use two lances and hit with both, I would rule they are automatically unhorsed...then the next time when they tie themselves to their saddle (which you know power gamers would attempt) I would have the horses STR deal damage to them as they're torn from the saddle.
It just show how lance, any weapon with brace, and tower shield are all brooken. They all need to be fixed. Lance dose way to much damage on a charge while on horse back. Brace dose way to much damage when you set it but it still attack all 8 directions. Tower shield is like the only thing that use facing but brace weapon dose not...
Your personal, arbitrary ruling isn't something that is needed. It contributes nothing to the discussion at-hand, given the prior mention that DMs may deal with this in whatever way they want, but the important part of the discussion is how it should be dealt with objectively based purely on the rules.If someone tried to use two lances and hit with both, I would rule they are automatically unhorsed...then the next time when they tie themselves to their saddle (which you know power gamers would attempt) I would have the horses STR deal damage to them as they're torn from the saddle.If you only have one hand on then you do not get the 2 handed bonus.
Using two lances is patently ridiculous and attempting it should be met with 1000 lashes from a wet noodle and then a punch in the throat.
DM ruling is always important as it trumps anything written or not. Personally I would force a ride check with a huge negative circumstance penalty. The margin of failure would be small but beyond a certain level stuff like this should be possible if a wizard can get a empower rod and do similar damage easily.
Completely disregarding what all of you seem to be off topic arguing about, TC needs to backhand his friend for such obvious "intentional-misreading-to-my-benfit".
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Heh, just had an amusing thought, tangental, so excuse me.
Can a two handed fighter use a bastard sword and gain the benefits of the archtype?
if yes...
Can he still do it if he takes EWP bastard sword?
It is a one-handed weapon that can be used two-handed. Per strict reading of the archetype, they only get their bonuses while using "two-handed weapons" (not one-handed weapons used in two hands).
I think that the crux of the issue with this archetype is if it means the actual weapon category "Two-handed weapons", or just using a weapon in two hands.
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Your personal, arbitrary ruling isn't something that is needed. It contributes nothing to the discussion at-hand, given the prior mention that DMs may deal with this in whatever way they want, but the important part of the discussion is how it should be dealt with objectively based purely on the rules.If someone tried to use two lances and hit with both, I would rule they are automatically unhorsed...then the next time when they tie themselves to their saddle (which you know power gamers would attempt) I would have the horses STR deal damage to them as they're torn from the saddle.If you only have one hand on then you do not get the 2 handed bonus.
Using two lances is patently ridiculous and attempting it should be met with 1000 lashes from a wet noodle and then a punch in the throat.
Game Mastering is about making arbitrary decisions...power gamers like to break games by using loopholes in the rules. I've run into far too many power gamers that have wrecked games to allow their shenanigans, thus I would make rules to cover situations NOT covered in the rules or with gaping gray areas. Nuff said, I'm done. And welcome to the boards...
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@ JamesI'm not sure where it says that - two-weapon fighting is always interpreted as one attack after another, like a normal full attack. However, I'll leave the decision to DMs on that one.
In regards to the "silly" things - this whole discussion (the original discussion which I also supplemented) was based on these ideas. If you want to disregard the inspiring point of the discussion, or relevant references, then you obviously do not belong in this discussion.
In the rules about combat. No attack is simultaneous, you resolve them in sequence, so only the first benefit from the charge.
About the one/two hands discussion, a lance (not a spear), when on horseback, was normally used with a rest ([url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lance_rest]rest, Wikipedia[/url[]). That mean that you weren't actually using it with one hand, but where using as part of a complex combination requiring am armor with a rigid section protecting your torso, with a rest and with a lance set in the rest. If he were to satisfy all those conditions I would allow a character to treat the lance as a 2 handed weapon as the rest function as a second hand. At the same time I would not allow him to "quick draw" the lance from its travelling position to its charging position. I would require a movement action to properly set the weapon.
As the rules are somewhat abstract a lance can be used for a one handed charge even by a guy in a loincloth, but in that situation I would not allow him to benefit from it as if he was using 2 hands.
Similarly someone charging but not taking the time to properly set the lance would not benefit from treating it as a 2 handed weapons even if it had an appropriate armor.
BTW: I would rule that you can't properly set 2 lances for using them one handed at the same time, so no dual wielding lances on horseback.
The rules for using lance on horseback were set up to provide the classic jousting/charging configuration of lance and shield, not two lances.
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psst! that FAQ was made a year after that last post, and that post was nearly 4 years ago...
just sayin'
also your logic is a little ropey.
Don't go expecting people to read dates....
You are wrong. You can wield a lance one handed and gain the whole bonus as if being wielded two handed, so you can also dual wield lances.
paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qno
Pawned.
Next I'm going to go back to the 90's and show them how superior my cell phone is.
Pawned.
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You are wrong. You can wield a lance one handed and gain the whole bonus as if being wielded two handed, so you can also dual wield lances.
Pawned.
Weapons, Two-Handed in One Hand
Power Attack: If I am using a two-handed weapon with one hand (such as a lance...)
Two FAQ 's about this. The first is the particular about Two Handed weapons in One Hand. The character would get one handed effects for that weapon (even though it is a Two Handed weapon)
The second is particular to the Lance itself, as it is being One Handed as one is riding a mount. It is assumed that the other hand is guiding the mount, likely in a charge, though the off hand can wield a shield or another weapon, one that is One Handed or Light. (Not another Lance)
A Charge would only use a single attack, though if Pounce is somehow used, only the first attack would be doubled and since the Lance has reach, it is likely the only weapon available to attack with at that time.
It is of my own interpretation that one can not wield two Lances at the same time.
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The two FAQs establish that "wield in one hand" and "wield one-handed" are two entirely separate concepts within the framework of the rules.
Which is one of those rules calls I really don't like, since outside of rules lawyering nobody would ever think those two terms have a different meaning.
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The Lance itself has a particular rule about it that is outside of the normal Two Handed rule, though it is only when riding a mount that it comes into play. This should not free up the use for another two handed weapon of any kind in the off hand, as the Lance is only shifting it's stance in a particular situation and is only able to be use in One Hand in that given circumstance.
This give a little more about the Lance, when charging, and multiple attacks.
Last post for me.