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1 re-roll/session is relatively minor, so I'm extremely lenient with shirt use. Especially at a multi-day convention.
While I understand the wish to see people wearing the shirts to promote PFS and Paizo, what Jokem is suggesting can be a great way to increase the enthusiasm of a player at their first session. I often will bring my faction shirt when I GM, just to allow a newbie a re-roll. And I'm pretty sure we would be equally unenthusiastic about them wearing my clothes.
Actually, I think I have 9 shirts which allow re-rolls now, with only 1 faction shirt. Of course, I can't wear 4 of them to cons any more ;)
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At events such as Gencon, I like the option of taking my t-shirt out of my backpack, although I wear it where possible.
But conventions is the very place we want players to wear their shirts. People are unlikely to approach you and ask what the shirt means outside of a gaming environment, and I expect most if not all people in your local gaming venue already know what it means. It is the casual convention player who sees the shirt and wonders about it that we want to entice to PFS. Not to mention, the more shirts there are, the more likely someone is to think, "Man this game must be great to have soo many players. I should check it out."
Or I can just pull one of three t-shirts out of my backpack and wear it for 5 minutes (if needed).
No offense, but this irks me. It clearly flies in the face of the spirit of the re-roll. I know you're not intending it this way, but I get the uncomfortable feeling of a "f**k you" with respect to the intent.
This being said, like Neal, I am fairly relaxed with allowing re-rolls. Hell, if I'm wearing one as the GM, I often allow a single, "community" re-roll for those who don't own a shirt. I just wish people would stop treating this as a right, but as a bonus/reward for supporting Paizo. Please show a little respect.
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I don't think that Jason meant disrespect. If promotion of the game is our intent, then players should not feel like they are being backed into a corner if they want to use a perk they paid for with cash. I think the campaign should maintain a casual approach to the T-shirts and not draw any lines in the sand. Gamers are independent spirits and there'll be backlash if they feel like they are being used for a marketing ploy (which they are). Let sleeping dogs lie. If someone buys a T-shirt, they should be able to utilize it as they see fit so long as it doesn't become abusive.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I don't think that Jason meant disrespect. If promotion of the game is our intent, then players should not feel like they are being backed into a corner if they want to use a perk they paid for with cash. I think the campaign should maintain a casual approach to the T-shirts and not draw any lines in the sand. Gamers are independent spirits and there'll be backlash if they feel like they are being used for a marketing ploy (which they are). Let sleeping dogs lie. If someone buys a T-shirt, they should be able to utilize it as they see fit so long as it doesn't become abusive.
*shrug*
As a player the way I see it is it's a trivial effort to wear the shirt for a minor benefit. If I forget to wear the shirt or don't bother to put it on, I just shrug and don't take the re-roll because it's a fairly minor benefit I didn't 'earn'.
What I don't like is that people feel they can set aside clearly worded rules because it's inconvenient. Makes me wonder what other rules get ignored because they present minor inconveniences.
Edit: I probably wouldn't enforce this, I just think it's lazy and a bad precedence
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Hey, I'm just trying to tell you how it is from a player's perspective at these cons. I'm sorry that bothers you. I'm a GM too and I don't see the big deal. It's not like I don't wear my t-shirts, I do wear them but only for 2 or less days. If you want to be a d%^& at these cons, I think this hurts PFS alot more than being strict with t-shirts helps. I didn't know PFS was a competition, I thought it was for fun? And that ultimately, you'd prefer the PCs to win?
Maybe we have completely different GMing styles (actually, we do), but to me GMs should be friendly, especially at Cons (you're representing PFS) and especially on something as minor as this. It's only a single re-roll we're talking about.
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I think what some have issue with is the attitude, not so much the mechanic. It just has a feel, similar to many others, that some players display an obnoxious level of entitlement that rubs people the wrong way.
I'm okay with not wearing it 100%, but just don't reach into your backpack in the middle of the game and start tossing extra shirts to the other players.
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Maybe we have completely different GMing styles (actually, we do), but to me GMs should be friendly, especially at Cons (you're representing PFS) and especially on something as minor as this. It's only a single re-roll we're talking about.
I agree but there's always some bad apples or veteran players that might want to ruin it for others.
I don't have a problem with someone loaning an extra shirt to another player. I like to joke that they have to be wearing it so I make the player put the T-shirt on their head.
Mike
I wish the Goblins shirts qualified for the Reroll, cause they're cool looking shirts.
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Woot!! Another thread started because someone disagreed with me!!! ;)
If this one goes to 400+ posts though I will be surprised.
I will be amazed if this topic gets to 100 posts.
Surely there are only so many stories about foul body odor at conventions this board can generate.
That sounds like a challenge!
I wish the Goblins shirts qualified for the Reroll, cause they're cool looking shirts.They will when Guide 4.1 is released.
Awesome. When's that likely to be out by?
I'm planning on wearing my Goblin shirt to GottaCon in February.
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Also, anyone who has purchased a shirt knows they come in a somewhat vacuum-sealed tiny triangle package. IMO, the package is cool, but the shirt comes out un-wearably wrinkled. Simple ironing is not sufficient to correct it (I've tried). So that leaves convention go'ers without the ability to benefit from the new shirt purchase.
The Ruby Phoenix shirt I got from Paizo didnt come in the shrinkwrap stuff. it was layed flat like any other shirt youd buy from a brick n mortar store.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I have a Faction shirt displayed across the top of the case, where it is visible to everyone as I move thru a Convention area. So... would that work for YOU as the judge? or do I need to have the shirt ON?
As a way of rewarding players who show their support for the Pathfinder Society Organized Play campaign by purchasing and wearing special tee shirts featuring campaign insignia or faction logos, a player wearing any of the shirts listed below during a Pathfinder Society event may reroll one d20 roll during the course of that scenario.
Are you wearing the shirt?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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a) T10 on the first roll, fail and take the Shirt re-Roll as a dice roll?
.
The reroll needs to be called before the player knows the results of the die roll. How do you know you've failed with a Take-10? If you don't think 10 is going to be good enough, then just roll; why use up the shirt needlessly?b) Roll, fail, T10 on the shirt re-roll?
Not at my table. It's a re-roll, a recast of fate, not a reconsideration as to whether you want to take the chance or not. (For the same reason, I wouldn't allow a player to roll, and then use a tee shirt to ask for a re-roll with new modifiers added in.)
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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b) Roll, fail, T10 on the shirt re-roll?Not at my table. It's a re-roll, a recast of fate, not a reconsideration as to whether you want to take the chance or not. (For the same reason, I wouldn't allow a player to roll, and then use a tee shirt to ask for a re-roll with new modifiers added in.)
Hm, I hadn't thought of it that way.
Okay, I amend my previous position. I think Chris is right on this.
are we saying that (A) & (C) are "OK"?
a) T10 on the first roll, fail and take the Shirt re-Roll as a dice roll?
c) T10 on a roll, then T10 on the re-roll (lol!)
"The reroll must happen before the original result is determined."
So you can't reroll after you know that you fail, take 10 or no take 10.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Not at my table.
I wonder if it would help GM-player relations to avoid phrases like "not at my table". I think it can foster a confrontational atmosphere.
Now, the phrase is probably usually meant well, but consider how it could come across: saying "not at MY table" (instead of, for instance, "no") implies that the answer would be "yes" at other tables, which in turn implies there's a reason that the answer would be "yes" at other tables (such as, presumably, "yes" being the right answer).
That is to say, the implied statement of "it might be allowed at other tables, but not at mine" can really come across as an admission of cheating (and a proud one at that). Basically, saying that X is allowed, but I find it morally reprehensible enough that I am proud of my willingness to break that rule in order to keep you from doing X.
The vast majority of GMs only mean "it might not be clear, so here's how I'd rule it at my table". Unfortunately, I can very easily see it coming across to the inquiring player as "I'm willing to cheat in order to stop your shenanigans - shenanigans so foul that even in cheating I still hold the moral high ground".
So... I guess I'm saying maybe we GMs should avoid that particular phrase. Just a thought.
/End derail. :)
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Jiggy,
That's a good point. It's easy to misunderstand people when all they have is the written text with no inflection or affect.
Continuing the derail, I have a suggestion for helping to ameliorate any stresses between GMs and players. GMs should play sometimes, and as many people should GM as feel comfortable doing so. When you're always on one side of the screen or ther other, it's easier to see the other ide as an antagonist.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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So, Jiggy, let's see how this works.
Player "I'm going to roll my Diplomacy as a Gather Information roll... I got a 6, plus 10 is a 16... wait! I'll use my shirt re-roll and just Take 10, getting a 20."
Judge "Sorry - you have already decided to put this roll to the dice - so you can do a re-roll, but it has to be a roll of the dice. You have to 'take the chance' and put your result up to the dice gods."
Remember that, despite still being a normal check, taking 10 (or choosing not to) is still an in-character choice to either go about it the normal way or get a little risky in hopes of greater effect.
The shirt reroll, however, is an out-of-character decision to screw with the results.
Taking 10 and rolling are two different ways the character can go about a task. Using the shirt reroll shouldn't allow your character to make a different decision about how to go about it.
Make more sense that way?
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Jiggy,
That's a good point. It's easy to misunderstand people when all they have is the written text with no inflection or affect.
Continuing the derail, I have a suggestion for helping to ameliorate any stresses between GMs and players. GMs should play sometimes, and as many people should GM as feel comfortable doing so. When you're always on one side of the screen or ther other, it's easier to see the other ide as an antagonist.
Seconded. As I GM more, I find myself increasingly sympathetic towards various GMs/GM-related viewpoints.
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Taking 10 and rolling are two different ways the character can go about a task. Using the shirt reroll shouldn't allow your character to make a different decision about how to go about it.
I would differ with the idea that a reroll has anything to do with what has occured In Character, or Out Of Character. This is a metagame benefit that allows Paizo to to give DMs a method of allowing a reroll if the player isn't satisfied with the result of a roll. I can't recall how many times over my decades as a player and DM that I have heard another player ask a DM if they can reroll after seeing the dice fall on a less-than-pleasing result. Generally, it is just appealing to the generosity of the DM, and Paizo is giving us a means to decide how generous to be with rerolls. There's no character involvement in making a choice to redo an effort. The "character" isn't involved in any way. Within the continuity of the story, the character made a single effort and there's no choices made about doing it differently.
That being said, I think it an unfortunate circumstance that the wording of the rules said "wearing" ... I would be shocked if I was told by someone who wrote it that they considered that verbiage would cause a stir about whether the shirt was either physically present, or was physically being worn. ... or draped across someone's shoulder, or tied at the waist, or being used as a napkin, for that matter.
The point is that storytellers should be aware of the shirt, and they shouldn't be traded around. Other than that, the shirts are a means by which the player is encouraged to have more fun, and extending the debate into a rules-parsing grammar-fest defeats the purpose of having fun.
There will be those who are arrogant and imperious enough to invoke the "I'm-the-final-arbiter" rule, and there will be those that act like petty children. There will be those who cordially make it known that they have a shirt and let the DM see it ... and there will be a massive plethora of those in between.
The point here is to have fun, and not to be guilty of ruining the fun of others. Don't be a schlmiel if a DM says "No", and be gracious about accepting the answer. Don't get twisted if a player asks, and be generous.
"The reroll must happen before the original result is determined."
So you can't reroll after you know that you fail, take 10 or no take 10.
Yep! that's right! Forgot that... here, let's modify my earlier selections.
a) T10 on the first roll, decide you don't like that roll (which is kind of goofie, cause you can just decide not to T10 in the first place) and take the Shirt re-Roll as a dice roll?
b) Roll, decide you don't like that roll, T10 on the shirt re-roll?
or heck -
c) T10 on a roll, then T10 on the re-roll (lol!)
My take on it: All of those options are basically just wasting the reroll. I'd allow them, but who would bother wasting a reroll instead of just rolling in the first place (in situation a) or just taking 10 in the first place (in situations b & c)?
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I guess I will have to say I disagree. But heck - we can do it your way if you want. I hardly ever remember that I have the shirt anyway.
I do think that taking 10 is a PLAYER choice, not a character choice. The first line of the rule after all says, "When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10." not "When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, he/she may choose to take 10." (bold is my change).
I think the T10 (and T20) rules use player/character kind of interchangeably. Here are some excerpts, with bolding added:
Sometimes, though, a character can use a skill under more favorable conditions, increasing the odds of success.
.....
Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10.
The best part is the T20 rules, which (if we distinguish between player and character) get really interesting, as it matters whether or not the game room is safe:
When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20.
.....
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding.
Guys at the next table are distractingly loud? Can't take 20. ;)
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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nosig, have you ever sat down at a table with someone who clearly didn't understand the idea of tabletop roleplaying as a cooperative experience? A player who cooked up a weird class and insisted on all sorts of stretches of rules-fu in order to make it legal or playable? A GM who was openly antagonistic or blood-thirsty? A player who tried to drive the scenario off its rails or tried to make things less fun for other players?
that's what we're talking about. Being on both sides of the screen helps people develop empathy.
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goodness - I'm lost in the woods here. I do not understand what you are trying to tell me. ... Sorry! I don't mean to be difficult. I really don't see what you are driving at here. I admit it. I'm totally lost.
I can't speak for Jiggy personally, but I read it to mean that he's saying that you already do understand. By virtue of the fact that you spend time on both sides of the screen, you understand that it's difficult to be the DM and difficult to be the player. One has to understand that it's not about contentiousness, and that it's about cooperating with friends to have the best time possible. It's not about enforcing rules against the players, nor about trying to beat the DM. What they were getting at is a point that you (by your post of doing it "WITH" others) already seem to understand.
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I guess I will have to say I disagree. But heck - we can do it your way if you want. I hardly ever remember that I have the shirt anyway.
I do think that taking 10 is a PLAYER choice, not a character choice. The first line of the rule after all says, "When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10." not "When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, he/she may choose to take 10." (bold is my change).
I think the T10 (and T20) rules use player/character kind of interchangeably. Here are some excerpts, with bolding added:
Sometimes, though, a character can use a skill under more favorable conditions, increasing the odds of success.
.....
Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10.
This is getting silly now. you CHARACTER is not holding dice, your CHARACTER never literally rolls. the PLAYER rolls always.
semantics...
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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When I judge I play WITH my player, not against them.
When I am a player I play WITH my judge, not against them.Probably because you've spent so much time on both sides of the screen. That's what Chris and I were getting at.
goodness - I'm lost in the woods here. I do not understand what you are trying to tell me. And I haven't even had any of Caydens Finest or anything else. (Just normal EOD friday Daze).
Sorry! I don't mean to be difficult. I really don't see what you are driving at here. I admit it. I'm totally lost.
If someone is always the GM, they can lose sight of what it's like being a player. They might come to view every protest as a challenge to their authority, every rules question as an attempt to be exploitative/abusive, etc.
If someone is always a player, they can be unaware of what it's like to be the GM, view every unfavorable ruling as a power play, think the GM is just out to get them, etc.
If someone spends time in both roles, they're less likely to fall into either side's pitfalls.
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Guys ... Why is this becoming such a huge issue? The official rule states that the shirt has to be worn not how it has to be worn.
Should the player wear the shirt to promote the society and the company -- in an ideal world sure... but we don't live in a perfect world all the time. The world is not just red and blue (black and white to you mundanes) there is a lot of purple (again gray for mundane speak).
Rule number 1 of the society is "don't be a jerk" so why are we starting to nitpick about something as simple as a shirt reroll that is negligible in the grand scheme of things.
Quite honestly, if I sat down at a table with a judge and they made the comment that I had to wear (as intended for clothing to be worn) a shirt that I'd worn previously in order to get the re-roll, I'd probably think about leaving the table. Not because of the shirt wearing/reroll itself, but because I'd be thinking about what kind of experience I was going to have at that table overall if the judge was going to be that big of a jerk about something as simple as the shirt reroll.