Tiny reach weapon flanking?


Rules Questions


Normally, a creature smaller than size 'small' cannot be used as a flank buddy, because it only threatens the square that it is in.

If I gave a tiny creature a tiny reach weapon, would the reach increase allow it to flank a square that it's adjacent to?

I'm trying to figure out if I can use a tumor familiar as a flank-buddy for a vivisectionist. The tumor familiar rule specifically says the familiar is tiny or diminutive, so I believe I can't make it behave as a familiar race with a larger size than that.

The combat rules state that they "typically" don't have reach and thus can't flank, etc, but what happens if they get reach? I think as long as they have hands, wielding a long spear or whip should be possible, even if they don't actually make any attacks or even have the weapon proficiency to do so with any accuracy.


A reach weapon doubles the users natural reach. 2x0 is still 0. A reach weapon will still not allow a tiny creature to threaten the squares around him.

Shadow Lodge

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There are a few monsters in the bestiaries that are tiny with reach weapons, and yes with their reach weapons they threaten 5'.

Off the top of my head (since I just prepped it yesterday for a game this weekend) twigjack from bestiary 2. Tiny fey with a spear that has a 5' reach.

As for giving the familiar a whip... whips don't threaten without specific feats.


It's not a weapon, but the Psuedodragon is tiny and has a reach of 0', but his tail stinger gives him reach 5'.

So, there's some kind of precedent for increasing tiny reaches.


Jeraa wrote:
A reach weapon doubles the users natural reach. 2x0 is still 0. A reach weapon will still not allow a tiny creature to threaten the squares around him.

I don't believe this to be true.

PRD wrote:
Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

A typical Large character or creature has a natural reach of 10, so it can hit adjacent targets or those at 10 ft. Please tell me how doubling makes 15 ft in either case. There are no 7.5 ft increments in the game to speak of.


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The rules say a tiny creature with a reach weapon would still have a reach of 0'.

However, James Jacobs said:

James Jacobs wrote:
Game speak for "DOUBLE" doesn't really mean "twice as much." A creature that's Tiny and has a reach of 0 feet who uses a reach weapon would basically go up to the next stage of reach: 5 feet. Something smaller than Tiny would, at the most, go up to Tiny's level of reach—weapons smaller than those wielded by Tiny creatures, therefore, never have reach.

By developer ruling, tiny creatures with reach weapons do have 5' reach. Officially, by the book, they do not.

Quote:
A typical Large character or creature has a natural reach of 10, so it can hit adjacent targets or those at 10 ft. Please tell me how doubling makes 15 ft in either case. There are no 7.5 ft increments in the game to speak of.

The game always counts in 5' increments, yes. But you can be anywhere in your space. A human is not 5' across, and they don't always stay 5' away from other people. You may be on the edge of your space, and only a few inches from an adjacent person. Or you can be on the opposite side of your space, and be several feet from them. If bothy you and the person adjacent to you are both on opposite sides of your respective spaces, you can be 8-9 feet apart, and still the game considers you to be 5' apart. As far as the game is concerned, as long as you are less then a full 10 feet apart, you are in adjacent squares and so only 5' apart.


Jeraa wrote:
The rules say a tiny creature with a reach weapon would still have a reach of 0'.

I didn't find this; where did you find it in the rules?

Jeraa wrote:

However, James Jacobs said:

James Jacobs wrote:
Game speak for "DOUBLE" doesn't really mean "twice as much." A creature that's Tiny and has a reach of 0 feet who uses a reach weapon would basically go up to the next stage of reach: 5 feet. Something smaller than Tiny would, at the most, go up to Tiny's level of reach—weapons smaller than those wielded by Tiny creatures, therefore, never have reach.
By developer ruling, tiny creatures with reach weapons do have 5' reach. Officially, by the book, they do not.

This matches how a lot of us seem to see it. Officially, by the book, I don't see anything that actually says they do not.


Quote:
I didn't find this; where did you find it in the rules?

In the Equipment chapter, on reach weapons.

Quote:
Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren't adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder's natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

A tiny creature, according to the core rulebook, has a natural reach of 0 feet. Double that because of a reach weapon, it is still 0 feet.

And yes, the rules do say "most". Thats because of all the reach weapons in the core book, all but one follow that pattern. The whip seems to triple reach instead of double (medium reach 5', medium reach weapon 10', medium whip 15').

Shadow Lodge

I'm of the opinion that tiny creatures actually have a reach of 2 1/2 feet, same as their space, but because we always round down it goes to 0. But take that 2 1/2 and double it with a reach weapon and you have 5' reach.

It makes absolutely no sense to go from a small creature having a 10' reach with a halberd, to a tiny creature having a 0' reach with its sized halberd.


Eric Clingenpeel wrote:

I'm of the opinion that tiny creatures actually have a reach of 2 1/2 feet, same as their space, but because we always round down it goes to 0. But take that 2 1/2 and double it with a reach weapon and you have 5' reach.

It makes absolutely no sense to go from a small creature having a 10' reach with a halberd, to a tiny creature having a 0' reach with its sized halberd.

Halberd do not have reach.


Eric Clingenpeel wrote:

I'm of the opinion that tiny creatures actually have a reach of 2 1/2 feet, same as their space, but because we always round down it goes to 0. But take that 2 1/2 and double it with a reach weapon and you have 5' reach.

That would make sense, especially when compared to the chart on page 195 of the core rulebook, which lists a creatures size and natural reach.

Large (Tall) creatures have a 10' space, and a 10' reach. Huge (tall) have 15/15, gargantuan (tall) 20/20, and colossal (tall) a 30' space with 30' reach. Both medium and small creatures have a 5' reach and 5' space. It would fit the pattern if the smaller sizes did too. The only thing it would change is tiny creatures with reach weapons. They are the only smaller critters that when their reach is doubled, would be able to threaten adjacent squares.

Quote:
It makes absolutely no sense to go from a small creature having a 10' reach with a halberd, to a tiny creature having a 0' reach with its sized halberd.

As has been said, halberds are not reach weapons. But what really doesn't make sense is a 3' creature having the same reach as a 6-8' creature. Small creatures should not have the same space or reach as medium creatures (but they do, because its easier to to have all normal PC races working the same.)

Shadow Lodge

Sorry, that's what I get for assuming. I've always thought they were reach weapons. But anyway you got my point.

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