Questions about Monster Cohorts

[Zen79]

I have some questions about Monster Cohorts:

1. It seems that the Cohort level is something around two times the CR; isn't that a bit steep, compared with a NPC with the same amount of class levels? For example, with a Leadership score of 16, you could get a Babau (CR 6) or a 11th-Level NPC.

2. The Leadership feat has a maximum reachable cohort level of 17, but a Stone Giant (or a young silver dragon) has a cohort level of 18 given (which should otherwise be possible for a 20th-level character). Is this an error?

[Zen79]

Concerning the Cohort Level, I noticed that the Bestiary states in "Monsters as PCs" that CR and class level are roughly equivalent; so it seems even stranger that the various cohorts are counted as ~twice their CR.

[James Risner]

Zen79 wrote:

1. It seems that the Cohort level is something around two times the CR; isn't that a bit steep

I'm currently compiling a spreadsheet of "playable" monster races (non-evil races with arms, able to talk, etc)

I'm comparing it to the Cohort Level for some of them, and frankly the Cohort Level seems much more fair than the playable level. When I complete the good dragons, lycanthropy, and a few of the "evil but typical PC races" (like Drow/Minotaur/Orc) I'll post it if anyone is interested.

For instance, a Planetar is worth approximately 2,900,000 gp in abilities not counting any of his special abilities (like 17 HD, Cleric casting, DR, SR, Immunities, Resistances, SLA) but count for only 14 Class Levels.

[James Jacobs]

Zen79 wrote:

I have some questions about Monster Cohorts:

1. It seems that the Cohort level is something around two times the CR; isn't that a bit steep, compared with a NPC with the same amount of class levels? For example, with a Leadership score of 16, you could get a Babau (CR 6) or a 11th-Level NPC.

The cohort level was not determined by using any sort of formula. We looked at each monster on that list and manually assigned its level adjustment based on how that monster stacks up against a character class. Monstrous cohorts will generally have fewer hit points and be lower level than a regular classed humanoid cohort, but that's not why you'd want a monster cohort. You'd pick a monster cohort primarilly to get access to its special abilities.

For the babau, if you want a sneaky bad-ass rogue ally, you'd be better off getting that 11th level rogue. You'd pick a babau cohort more because it has some really good special abilities, such as being able to greater teleport at will (which makes it the perfect messenger or mule), constantly seeing invisible creatures, dispel magic at will, and it's potent defenses.

Zen79 wrote:

2. The Leadership feat has a maximum reachable cohort level of 17, but a Stone Giant (or a young silver dragon) has a cohort level of 18 given (which should otherwise be possible for a 20th-level character). Is this an error?

Nope; it's not an error. You'd just have to be higher than 20th level and using epic rules to have a cohort of level 17, or perhaps using some sort of feat or prestige class that allows for higher-level cohorts than normal. While neither of these options are implicitly supported by the core rules yet... things are unlikely to stay that way, and so we threw in those high-level cohorts in the Bestiary as a way of anticipating future development.

[James Jacobs]

Zen79 wrote:

Concerning the Cohort Level, I noticed that the Bestiary states in "Monsters as PCs" that CR and class level are roughly equivalent; so it seems even stranger that the various cohorts are counted as ~twice their CR.

Remember also that cohorts are NOT PCs. They're really, when you get down to it, a suite of extra abilities an existing character gains by simply taking a single feat.

So if the cohort version of a monster has a higher effective level than a PC version, that's on purpose. Since the cohort version is adding onto an existing character, where as the PC version is all alone.

[Zen79]

@James: thank you for answering!
@James: thank you for answering!

[Grindergrend]

Good morning all, I have been reading the monsters as PCs and monsters as Cohorts rules and I am still very confused. I am a DM and I planned to use these rules as guidance, to avoid major balance issues.

MONSTERS AS PCS QUESTIONS

I will take the example given on paizo.com. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian. I looked at this example from every angle and still cannot figure out how it works. From what I understand, this character has 6 racial hit dices and two class levels. It has a bab of 8, awesome saves (when compared to a 6 th level warrior or barbarian), 5 points of natural armor, immunity to surprise (awesomeness), large size (extra damage, manoeuver check bonus and defense and natural reach).

- did I get it correctly or is their some kind of subtle misunderstanding

- does the minotaur PC have standard minotaur abilities (STR, DEX...), feats and skills from racial hit dices or should it spend them as a regular PC.

As I get it the further the minotaur levels up and the bigger the gap gets. Our minotaur PC whould end up having 4 more bab than a standard PC with only 2 class levels lost.

MONSTERS AS COHORT QUESTIONS

So if I take prestige as my 7th level feat, I happen to have 12 charsima which gives me a prestige score of 8. I therefore am elegible for a level 5 cohort. According to the monster as cohort table, I can choose a ghoul as a cohort (level 5 equivalent). I have several questions:

- Does this ghoul have class levels yet or only its racial hit dices.

- Does this ghoul have standard ghoul abilities (STR, DEX...), feats and skills from racial hit dices or should it spend them as a PC.

if I get them correctly the monsters as cohort rules seem much more balanced to me than the monsters as PCs, although most monsters in the table cannot be goten before very late in most core campaigns (at least those I have DMed).

I understand that those two chapters are very DM dependant, and I am only looking for good guidelines to allow those options in my games, because I like the RP and tactical possibilities of these options and because I like it when my players enlist their former allies or enemies and go adventuring with them.