Ok,
I've read and read and don't see it. Per the rules on 313 for monster classes, I would have expected Drow to be the default 'equal to core race' version of Drow, and Drow Noble to be the 'Uber Drow race'. This is borne out by the differences in stats.
However, the two races have the same CR adjustment, which is to say, none. So, per 313, both races are starting character races.
I am sure that the Drow Noble are supposed to be a +1 CR or +2 CR race, but I don't see anything.
Could James or Jason comment please?
Director of Games
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Alas,
I do not have my copy here at home yet, but I do have my original word files on the Drow for the Bestiary. It should say that Drow Nobles are CR +1, which would increase their level for the purpose of PC creation, but I am going to need to look up a few things tomorrow when I get in to make sure I am correct here.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Alas,
I do not have my copy here at home yet, but I do have my original word files on the Drow for the Bestiary. It should say that Drow Nobles are CR +1, which would increase their level for the purpose of PC creation, but I am going to need to look up a few things tomorrow when I get in to make sure I am correct here.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Hey Jason,
Thanks for the response. I think you've got a copy/paste error here.This is the entry for Drow Noble.
Drow Nobility
About one out of every 20 drow is gifted with special powers from birth—the overwhelming majority of these exceptional drow are female, and as a result, drow society tends to be matriarchal in nature. These special births are engineered and encouraged among the ruling caste, and are far more likely to occur when the mother is of noble heritage.
Strangely, the status of the father seems not to increase or decrease the chances of a child being born a drow noble. Common drow children born to nobles are usually put to death—sacrificed to one of the many demon gods to whom the drow offer worship. It is rare for a drow noble
to be born to common parents, but those who are usually murder their parents or family before they come of age in order to hide the truth of their base upbringing and to ease the processes of joining one of their society’s noble houses. Drow nobles are more powerful than the majority of their kin, and as such they quickly rise to power within their houses. Advancement through the hierarchy of a drow noble house is usually accomplished through a combination of assassination, seduction, and treachery, leading most drow in power to be overly paranoid.Drow Noble Characters
Drow nobles are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. A drow noble’s challenge rating is equal to her class level. Drow nobles possess all of the racial traits listed above for drow characters, plus the following.
Then after that is just the Drow Noble powers. So I'm guessing the +1 CR should have been in the Character's section. The sample Drow Noble is a 3rd level cleric with a CR of 3 instead of 4.
The rules on 313 state you work off half the CR, round down. Does that mean you can never work off a CR 1, or would CR 1 be an exception and be removed after 3 class levels? Most CR 1's are not all that powerful (although the Drow Noble actually feels almost like a CR 2 with all those stat bonus's and at will spells).
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Remember, in Pathfinder, a classed character with no racial hit dice has a CR equal to level - 1. Thus, a level 3 human fighter is CR 2; a level 3 drow noble fighter is CR 3. There's the +1.
AH!
Ok, didn't catch the CR = CL's - 1. However, that just means the Stat Block is correct, but the text doesn't list the +1 CR.
As to the stuff the Drow Noble gets :
+8 effective stat bonuses (+10, with a -2)
Permanent Detect Magic
Divine Favor, Dispel Magic, Suggestion once per day
Dancing Lights (0), Deeper Darkness (3), Faerie Fire (1), Feather Fall (1), Levitate (2) at will.
Spell Resistance 11+CL (as opposed to 6+CL for Drow)
Those spells (At will 0, 1, 1, 2, 3 level spells) is HUGE. And they are not self only. So levitate at will on him and all his friends.
Not saying they are not a nasty scary race, just not sure a +1CR is enough is all I'm saying.
Do they really get +10/-2, or is that after the elite array being applied?
Do they really get +10/-2, or is that after the elite array being applied?
Drow Noble Characters
Drow nobles are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. A drow noble’s challenge rating is equal to her class level. Drow nobles possess all of the racial traits listed above for drow characters, plus the following.
+4 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma, –2 Constitution. Noble drow are very agile, observant, and regal. These ability score modifiers replace the standard drow ability score modifiers.
+4 + +2 + +2 + +2 = +10
And... Now I see that the CR = Class Level. So that's the +1, it's just not spelled out explicitly.
Hey man, the CR=CL bit thats there, is the CR +1 bit, NPC's of other races are at CL-1, and as there are no rules for playing monsters as such really built into the design of the Bestiary, that covers it.
You just have to remember that for an NPC CR=CL-1, so CR=CL means
CR=(CL-1)+1.
Hey man, the CR=CL bit thats there, is the CR +1 bit, NPC's of other races are at CL-1, and as there are no rules for playing monsters as such really built into the design of the Bestiary, that covers it.
You just have to remember that for an NPC CR=CL-1, so CR=CL means
CR=(CL-1)+1.
Right, I was just saying that it wasn't explicitly stated, just implied by stating the CR = CL. Which was confusing to me.
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Director of Games
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Ahh... it took me a minute to figure out what happened, but the original +1 CR callout was rolled into the text. Everything is correct there, it is just not spelled out as +1 CR.
So... yeah, a drow noble character would be 1 level lower than the rest of the group. Although, I should note that over time, this benefit might diminish to a point that is it no longer worth the +1 bump, but I think that should be left to GM discretion.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Ahh... it took me a minute to figure out what happened, but the original +1 CR callout was rolled into the text. Everything is correct there, it is just not spelled out as +1 CR.
So... yeah, a drow noble character would be 1 level lower than the rest of the group. Although, I should note that over time, this benefit might diminish to a point that is it no longer worth the +1 bump, but I think that should be left to GM discretion.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Yep, finally figured it out, just wasn't clear. :)
I do agree a single CR 1 should get smoothed out over time. I think I'll treat all the rules on 313 as being for CR 2 or higher, and CR 1 buys off after 3 levels.
I do like the way you handled that BTW Jason, very elegant, and much easier than the old ECL. Pushes all the math up front, and doesn't require XP adjustment. And also doesn't count racial hit dice as class levels, which they are not equivalent to.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So... yeah, a drow noble character would be 1 level lower than the rest of the group.
Sorry for hijacking this thread, but the Minotaur. Do you fabricate virtual levels for the 4 virtual Class Levels or do you add the whole benefits of the 6 Racial HD (including HP, saves, feats, skills) and consider it simply 4 "class" levels?
So... yeah, a drow noble character would be 1 level lower than the rest of the group.Sorry for hijacking this thread, but the Minotaur. Do you fabricate virtual levels for the 4 virtual Class Levels or do you add the whole benefits of the 6 Racial HD (including HP, saves, feats, skills) and consider it simply 4 "class" levels?
No problem with me, hijack all you want, I got my answers. :) I think you add them all and consider it simply 4 'class' levels, but an official response from Jason would be nice to confirm it.
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Director of Games
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So... yeah, a drow noble character would be 1 level lower than the rest of the group.Sorry for hijacking this thread, but the Minotaur. Do you fabricate virtual levels for the 4 virtual Class Levels or do you add the whole benefits of the 6 Racial HD (including HP, saves, feats, skills) and consider it simply 4 "class" levels?
If you are playing a minotaur, the rest of the group should be 4th level. If you are a barbarian 2/minotaur, the rest of the group should be 6th level.
In other words, the 6 racial HD count as 4 levels...
That said, GMs should strongly consider the effects of letting such a PC into the game. It can cause quite a disturbance if not properly accounted for.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
So would a minotaur get feats depending on his level (4) or his hit dice (6)?
I think this is one of those disturbances he was talking about ;)
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They're not unattainable, you could have a 20th level minotaur...in fact that would be a nice NPC for 20th level characters...20th level barbarian Mino with +5 Full plate and a Huge Great axe with auto confirm criticals...
I love the Drow Nobles mechanics!! They work great in my opinion...and reducing the standard drow to 6+HD SR is nice too.
They're not unattainable, you could have a 20th level minotaur...in fact that would be a nice NPC for 20th level characters...20th level barbarian Mino with +5 Full plate and a Huge Great axe with auto confirm criticals...
I love the Drow Nobles mechanics!! They work great in my opinion...and reducing the standard drow to 6+HD SR is nice too.
You could have a 20th level minotaur, you couldn't have a Minotaur with 20 levels of say Fighter. He'd have 18 levels of Fighter, and 2 'levels' of Minotaur.
That said, you could continue on with the Minotaur being a 22nd level (Epic) Minotaur Fighter and get his 20th level of fighter at level 22.
That said, I do like the new way of handling monster pc's, much more elegant and simpler than the old way. I know I thought it was complicated at first, but, now that I've thought it through, it's actually simpler too.
That said, I do like the new way of handling monster pc's, much more elegant and simpler than the old way. I know I thought it was complicated at first, but, now that I've thought it through, it's actually simpler too.
Man, now I wish I weren't so loyal to my FLGS. I wanna see this!
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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That said, I do like the new way of handling monster pc's, much more elegant and simpler than the old way. I know I thought it was complicated at first, but, now that I've thought it through, it's actually simpler too.
I love the new Drow/Noble Drow, but I'm not yet sold that the new CR based Monster class is either simpler or better. At least not yet. Primarily because of the "GM should audit" issue. In other words, there may be race combos where the CR method makes for a much more powerful setup than the old LA/ECL method. It makes me wary to say "you can take any class" allowances in games.
I reserve the right to change my opinion if I find I am simply reacting badly to a new mechanic.
+4 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma, –2 Constitution. Noble drow are very agile, observant, and regal. These ability score modifiers replace the standard drow ability score modifiers.
Wow!
Permanent Detect Magic
Divine Favor, Dispel Magic, Suggestion once per day
Dancing Lights (0), Deeper Darkness (3), Faerie Fire (1), Feather Fall (1), Levitate (2) at will.
Spell Resistance 11+CL (as opposed to 6+CL for Drow)
More wow!
So... yeah, a drow noble character would be 1 level lower than the rest of the group.
Did you test that?
I mean, the stat bonuses are pretty neat (there's a +4 in there!), I'd almost say that they're worth a lost level alone.
Spell resistance, which means you'll evade a lot of spells completely, is really useful, too.
And then there are the spells. Some are just useful, like feather fall. Some, like darkness and levitate at will, are really useful. And then you get divine favour, dispel magic and suggestion once per day?
I'd almost make each of these sets of abilities cost a level. All together? Sounds powerful to me.
If I told my characters that this race was open, I would have an all-drow party.
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+4 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma, –2 Constitution. Noble drow are very agile, observant, and regal. These ability score modifiers replace the standard drow ability score modifiers.
Wow!
Permanent Detect Magic
Divine Favor, Dispel Magic, Suggestion once per day
Dancing Lights (0), Deeper Darkness (3), Faerie Fire (1), Feather Fall (1), Levitate (2) at will.
Spell Resistance 11+CL (as opposed to 6+CL for Drow)
More wow!
So... yeah, a drow noble character would be 1 level lower than the rest of the group.Did you test that?
I mean, the stat bonuses are pretty neat (there's a +4 in there!), I'd almost say that they're worth a lost level alone.
Spell resistance, which means you'll evade a lot of spells completely, is really useful, too.
And then there are the spells. Some are just useful, like feather fall. Some, like darkness and levitate at will, are really useful. And then you get divine favour, dispel magic and suggestion once per day?
I'd almost make each of these sets of abilities cost a level. All together? Sounds powerful to me.
If I told my characters that this race was open, I would have an all-drow party.
An all drow noble party...sounds like a campaign...the young drow of a house. Oh the backstabbing...haha
Spell resistance, which means you'll evade a lot of spells completely, is really useful, too.
Y'know, I've always thought SR was a double-edged sword. It's a standard action to lower it, which means a whole lot of wasted actions or a whole lot of potentially missed buffs cast by your own wizard/cleric/whatever. Not to mention healing spells.
Did you test that?I mean, the stat bonuses are pretty neat (there's a +4 in there!), I'd almost say that they're worth a lost level alone.
Spell resistance, which means you'll evade a lot of spells completely, is really useful, too.
And then there are the spells. Some are just useful, like feather fall. Some, like darkness and levitate at will, are really useful. And then you get divine favour, dispel magic and suggestion once per day?
I'd almost make each of these sets of abilities cost a level. All together? Sounds powerful to me.
If I told my characters that this race was open, I would have an all-drow party.
I don't know if they tested it or not. I'll be testing it shortly, I am running a monster campaign and one of the players is making a Drow Wizard, so he's going to use the Drow Noble. If it's too overpowered, I may up the CR to +2 instead. I'll post once I know something, but it'll probably be a couple of months.
Spell resistance, which means you'll evade a lot of spells completely, is really useful, too.Y'know, I've always thought SR was a double-edged sword. It's a standard action to lower it, which means a whole lot of wasted actions or a whole lot of potentially missed buffs cast by your own wizard/cleric/whatever. Not to mention healing spells.
Good point, and the Drow get's it as well (just 6 + CL instead of 11 + CL)
That said, I do like the new way of handling monster pc's, much more elegant and simpler than the old way. I know I thought it was complicated at first, but, now that I've thought it through, it's actually simpler too.I love the new Drow/Noble Drow, but I'm not yet sold that the new CR based Monster class is either simpler or better. At least not yet. Primarily because of the "GM should audit" issue. In other words, there may be race combos where the CR method makes for a much more powerful setup than the old LA/ECL method. It makes me wary to say "you can take any class" allowances in games.
I reserve the right to change my opinion if I find I am simply reacting badly to a new mechanic.
I think the big thing isn't the mechanic... I think the big thing is the CR rating. If the CR rating is correct, I think the mechanic will work well. I'm more concerned about the CR's being correct. I think personally that the Drow Noble should be a +2 CR.
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Director of Games
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Hey there all,
I knew this discussion would come up sooner rather than later. I want to note that the monsters in this book are designed first and foremost to be monsters. The PC as monster component was a secondary concern.
In this particular case, I think it really depends on the level of the group. The Drow Noble abilities are really good if the PCs are 2nd or 3rd level, but up at 10th, they become much less valuable, and by the upper levels, that 1 level loss is a serious liability. Setting it at 2 would have helped the low level issue a bit, but would have made the mid to high level issue significantly worse.
That is why we stuck with +1.
You might want to adjust it in your game if it proves too good. By all means do, the rules here are fluid for a reason.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Creative Director
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Yeah; I'd like to echo Jason's observations. While we do know that playing monsters is something that some gamers want... the monsters in this book were by and large built to be monsters... NOT player races. As a result, CR is NOT (and actually never HAS been) a number you should ever use as advice on whether or not something is balanced to be played.
CR is affected by adding character levels when you want to determine how much XP something is worth, NOT to determine what "level" a creature is equal to. CR and character level are two entirely different things.
At low levels it could be one of those abilities once per day
6-10 use can use each 1/day
11-15 2/day
and
16+ 3/day.
That would justify the CR of +2?
Hey there all,
I knew this discussion would come up sooner rather than later. I want to note that the monsters in this book are designed first and foremost to be monsters. The PC as monster component was a secondary concern.
In this particular case, I think it really depends on the level of the group. The Drow Noble abilities are really good if the PCs are 2nd or 3rd level, but up at 10th, they become much less valuable, and by the upper levels, that 1 level loss is a serious liability. Setting it at 2 would have helped the low level issue a bit, but would have made the mid to high level issue significantly worse.
That is why we stuck with +1.
You might want to adjust it in your game if it proves too good. By all means do, the rules here are fluid for a reason.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Hey Jason,
Not trying to trash the mechanic, just getting a taste for it. :) As I said earlier in the thread, I like it better than ECL (so far). I do think it would work most of the time. I think there may be certain combinations that won't work too well. Honestly, I think the lower level CR monsters that could be PC's (drow, half-dragons, half-celestials, etc) are probably not the ones that it won't work for. I think the CR 5+ monsters are probably the ones that won't work as well with.And, still getting used to the new CR system, so the Noble Drow just looks low based on WoTC CR's. :) I think it's more just a getting used to new mechanics.
Thanks again for working so hard on the system, and the more I look over the bestiary, the more the monsters look balanced against each other with regards to the CR's. SOOOOOOO much more balanced than the MMIII to MMIV's. Wow...
Yeah; I'd like to echo Jason's observations. While we do know that playing monsters is something that some gamers want... the monsters in this book were by and large built to be monsters... NOT player races. As a result, CR is NOT (and actually never HAS been) a number you should ever use as advice on whether or not something is balanced to be played.
CR is affected by adding character levels when you want to determine how much XP something is worth, NOT to determine what "level" a creature is equal to. CR and character level are two entirely different things.
Absolutely. I think the only non-core races people want to play are the vaguely humanoid ones (Minotaurs, Drow, Duerger, Hobgoblins, etc). And the GM's job is to make sure it's all balanced out. The ECL from WoTC was wildly variable, and I like the new mechanic, and the rules for creating monsters (which can be used to calculate the CR for previous monsters, sweet!) is great.
Kudo's all around!
Kudos agreed... but the humanoid thing doesn't hold true as much as you might think. You have no idea how many times I've wished I could play a wyrmling or maybe very young dragon just because of how awesome it would be, but the old system never supported it in a reasonable manner.
I think the only non-core races people want to play are the vaguely humanoid ones (Minotaurs, Drow, Duerger, Hobgoblins, etc). And the GM's job is to make sure it's all balanced out. The ECL from WoTC was wildly variable, and I like the new mechanic, and the rules for creating monsters (which can be used to calculate the CR for previous monsters, sweet!) is great.
Kudo's all around!
I said only, I should have said most. :)
I have a player who is currently on the road again driving, but when he's not driving he always wants to play a Blink Dog. :) Which, unfortunately, is not in the Bestiary. Closed IP?
I figure I may as well point out that some creatures it may be unfair to allow to get the extra levels over time. The only one that I've noticed thus far is the Nymph, but losing only 4 levels to race by the time you hit Level 16, and gaining 7 Caster Levels of druid, as well as all their other bonuses? I think a bit overpowered in that case, which is why I'd look at it long and hard before using the mechanic on that, at least.
Not to say I don't like the mechanic. I actually love the mechanic, but it isn't perfect, and up to GMs to balance, in my opinion.
Well, you could compare the Blink Dog to creatures of it's CR in the beastiary to see if it matches, if it does use that, if it doesn't use the CR chart James or Jason (not sure which right now, though I believe it was James) told us about to place it. Boom, you've got your baseline rules to work with and adjust as necessary :)
Yeah, I'll probably use the rules in the back to work up all the monsters from the MM's that aren't in the book. The ones I use regularly anyway.
I figure I may as well point out that some creatures it may be unfair to allow to get the extra levels over time. The only one that I've noticed thus far is the Nymph, but losing only 4 levels to race by the time you hit Level 16, and gaining 7 Caster Levels of druid, as well as all their other bonuses? I think a bit overpowered in that case, which is why I'd look at it long and hard before using the mechanic on that, at least.
Not to say I don't like the mechanic. I actually love the mechanic, but it isn't perfect, and up to GMs to balance, in my opinion.
True,
All rules should be looked at by the GM of course, especially new ones. :)
True,
All rules should be looked at by the GM of course, especially new ones. :)
*coughs* Of course, the reason I looked at that particular creature for it was because I like playing nymphs, but I suppose that's beside the point. I honestly think the issue with the rule will be more of the exception, not the rule.
*coughs* Of course, the reason I looked at that particular creature for it was because I like playing nymphs, but I suppose that's beside the point. I honestly think the issue with the rule will be more of the exception, not the rule.
True,
All rules should be looked at by the GM of course, especially new ones. :)
Yep. I like it.
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In this particular case, I think it really depends on the level of the group. The Drow Noble abilities are really good if the PCs are 2nd or 3rd level, but up at 10th, they become much less valuable, and by the upper levels, that 1 level loss is a serious liability. Setting it at 2 would have helped the low level issue a bit, but would have made the mid to high level issue significantly worse.
What I've done in my game, taking the hint from the COT Players' Guide, is allow (somewhat odd) races but assigning them an "XP debt" that needs to be paid off.
For aasimar and tieflings, I assigned a 500 xp debt at 1st level. One of my players wanted to play a duergar, so I assigned a 500 xp debt at 1st level, and another 500 xp debt at 2nd level.
By doing this, I slow down progression at early levels, but by 10th level, that xp debt is negligible.
I'm still playing with this, but it seems like a scalable handicap for more powerful races without racial HD, and my players are satisfied with it.
In this particular case, I think it really depends on the level of the group. The Drow Noble abilities are really good if the PCs are 2nd or 3rd level, but up at 10th, they become much less valuable, and by the upper levels, that 1 level loss is a serious liability. Setting it at 2 would have helped the low level issue a bit, but would have made the mid to high level issue significantly worse.That is why we stuck with +1.
Seems to me that an ideal system would make it variable.
Something I might use if I allowed drow nobles: (note to all my players: No, they're not allowed! The next campaign might see genie-touched characters, though, if the bribes amount to enough)
I'd force them to take the first 1-2 levels in commoner. Then, later, at an appropriate point, they could convert some or all of those levels to something else.
That way, you'd get hit harder at first (when those abilities really make an impact), but it would ease up later.
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Director of Games
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In this particular case, I think it really depends on the level of the group. The Drow Noble abilities are really good if the PCs are 2nd or 3rd level, but up at 10th, they become much less valuable, and by the upper levels, that 1 level loss is a serious liability. Setting it at 2 would have helped the low level issue a bit, but would have made the mid to high level issue significantly worse.That is why we stuck with +1.
Seems to me that an ideal system would make it variable.
Something I might use if I allowed drow nobles: (note to all my players: No, they're not allowed! The next campaign might see genie-touched characters, though, if the bribes amount to enough)
I'd force them to take the first 1-2 levels in commoner. Then, later, at an appropriate point, they could convert some or all of those levels to something else.
That way, you'd get hit harder at first (when those abilities really make an impact), but it would ease up later.
That would probably be a fine solution as well.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I have a couple quick questions about the drow warrior in the Bestiary.
1) The drow warrior has hit points listed as 1d8. Shouldn't a warrior have 1d10 hp?
2) The drow warrior does not seem to have the favored class bonus of +1 hp or +1 skill rank. Do only the common races receive the favored class bonus? Or only PC classes? Or only PC characters?
I seem to recall having this question too. I'm not sure if it was while looking at the Aasimar, or Kressle from Kingmaker, or both.