Guided Amulet + Brass Knuckles

Ok, this subject came up in another thread. I know how I intend to rule it for my campaigns (in the most favorable way possible in this case, because it's primarily a monk bonus, and I feel monks need the help) but I want to know what the community feels as a whole.

This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.

Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks (IE no keen.) Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses.

Source Pathfinder #10 22
Price +1 bonus
Description
A weapon with the guided property allows its wielder to use his instinct when striking blows with it. Attacks from a guided weapon generally don’t strike hard, but they strike at precisely the right moment to maximize damage if in the hands of a particularly wise wielder. A character who attacks with a guided weapon modifies his attack rolls and weapon damage rolls with his Wisdom modifier, not his Strength modifier.

These weapons are designed to fit comfortably around the knuckles, narrowing the contact area and therefore magnifying the amount of force delivered by a punch.

Benefit: Brass knuckles allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks.

Drawback: You may hold, but not wield, a weapon or other object in a hand wearing brass knuckles. You may cast a spell with a somatic component while wearing brass knuckles if you make a concentration check (DC 10 + the level of the spell you’re casting).

Note: Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can you their Monk unarmed damage when fighting with them.

Now, this is my logic.

Amulet of Mighty Fists allows one to place magical enhancements that affect their unarmed strikes. In this case, we choose guided. (Bare in mind that doing so DOES prevent [or significantly increase the cost of] the use of an Amulet of Natural armor, except in campaigns that use the MIC item combining rules)

Brass Knuckles attacks ARE unarmed strikes, as per the description. All the brass knuckles do is make the unarmed damage lethal and allow one to enhance it magically.

Logically speaking, both the Amulet and the Brass knuckles can be enhanced, and both will affect the unarmed strikes made with the Brass Knuckles. Two instances of the same enhancement won't stack (including enhancement bonuses) but, for example, One could have a Guided Amulet, and +X Brass Knuckles, and both would work.

Your thoughts?

I wouldn't allow the amulet to work as technically you are using a weapon. It is the weapon that hits the enemy, though it uses your unarmed stats for damage.

With that said, you can enchant the Brass Knuckles up to +10 anyway, so the amulet option is just a way to save money or apply wayyyy to many properties to your unarmed strikes. Either way I think it's an exploit.

If that is your way of balancing the monk class I get it, but are all monks in your gameworld running around with this combo? It would clearly be the most effective way to go, and as such I'm sure most monks would be doing it to better themselves. I see that as an issue.

Edit: Just get +1 Guided Knuckles and an Amulet of Natural Armor or something. Same result with additional benefits.

I wouldn't let it stack, either.

However, the monk could have a Guided amulet of mighty fists, and have, say, bane on a set of brass knuckles. He would normally not use the brass knuckles, but if he put them on, they would override the amulet because technically he is using a weapon, not a natural attack.

These two items could allow the monk to have more versatility without being overly strong.

A PC should not be able to get the benefit of two weapon properties in one weapon (unarmed strike) for less than a regular weapon.

---

I just realized that one could make silver/cold iron/adamantine "brass" knuckles so a monk could bypass damage reduction. The monk PC in my group will love this idea.

No to stacking. Either your body has the enhancement bonus or the knuckles do. If your body has the guided property, it doesn't help with the knuckles.

So I presume all of you guys consider knuckle attacks to NOT be 'unarmed attacks' despite the quoted text?

Correct, kyrt-rider. They are not unarmed attacks. They have a special property that allows monks to use the damage unarmed attacks through them. They need to be +1 ki focus brass knuckles for them to even use Stunning Fist through them.

Correct, kyrt-rider. They are not unarmed attacks. They have a special property that allows monks to use the damage unarmed attacks through them. They need to be +1 ki focus brass knuckles for them to even use Stunning Fist through them.

Benefit: Brass knuckles allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks.

By my reading, the knuckles aren't an independent weapon. They're a tool that augments your unarmed attacks.

How could you possibly be unarmed if you're using a weapon from the weapon section of the rules. The fact that their damage can be based on Monk unarmed damage is not relevant.

How could you possibly be unarmed if you're using a weapon from the weapon section of the rules. The fact that their damage can be based on Monk unarmed damage is not relevant.

Because the weapon section is the best place to put such an item?

By my reading, the knuckles aren't an independent weapon. They're a tool that augments your unarmed attacks.

Of course they are an independent weapon. Look at the table. They have their own damage and everything.

Because the weapon section is the best place to put such an item?

Right. Because it's a weapon!!!!!!!!!!!!

kyrt-ryder wrote:

By my reading, the knuckles aren't an independent weapon. They're a tool that augments your unarmed attacks.

Of course they are an independent weapon. Look at the table. They have their own damage and everything.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that the same as the natural unarmed damage creatures of those sizes use? It would be awkward for someone to buy brass knuckles and then have to pop open the core rulebook to check the unarmed damage.

kyrt-ryder wrote:

By my reading, the knuckles aren't an independent weapon. They're a tool that augments your unarmed attacks.

Of course they are an independent weapon. Look at the table. They have their own damage and everything.

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Because the weapon section is the best place to put such an item?

Right. Because it's a weapon!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your fist is the weapon, the knuckles just make it harder :P

Mauril wrote:

Correct, kyrt-rider. They are not unarmed attacks. They have a special property that allows monks to use the damage unarmed attacks through them. They need to be +1 ki focus brass knuckles for them to even use Stunning Fist through them.

Benefit: Brass knuckles allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks.

By my reading, the knuckles aren't an independent weapon. They're a tool that augments your unarmed attacks.

Or, by RAW, they are a weapon with a special exception to their damage if their wielder is a monk. Also, note that it's the only exception listed. If they wanted brass knuckles to be able to use all monk special abilities, they would have stated that they count as unarmed for the purposes of all monk abilities and not just unarmed damage. If you want to rule differently in your games, you are welcome to. But, when discussing things in a gaming forum, RAW takes precedence unless you mention specific houserules in your first post.

By RAW, brass knuckles are manufactured weapons with an exception for their damage. As manufactured weapons, they do not benefit from an amulet of mighty fists.

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Mauril wrote:

Correct, kyrt-rider. They are not unarmed attacks. They have a special property that allows monks to use the damage unarmed attacks through them. They need to be +1 ki focus brass knuckles for them to even use Stunning Fist through them.

Benefit: Brass knuckles allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks.

By my reading, the knuckles aren't an independent weapon. They're a tool that augments your unarmed attacks.

Or, by RAW, they are a weapon with a special exception to their damage if their wielder is a monk. Also, note that it's the only exception listed. If they wanted brass knuckles to be able to use all monk special abilities, they would have stated that they count as unarmed for the purposes of all monk abilities and not just unarmed damage. If you want to rule differently in your games, you are welcome to. But, when discussing things in a gaming forum, RAW takes precedence unless you mention specific houserules in your first post.

By RAW, brass knuckles are manufactured weapons with an exception for their damage. As manufactured weapons, they do not benefit from an amulet of mighty fists.

From what I'm reading, by RAW brass knuckles are tools which have the following benefit.

Benefit: Brass knuckles allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks.

With a special note that monks do in-fact use their unarmed bonus on it, to ensure that people understood the tool does, in fact, help monks.

Mauril wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Mauril wrote:

Correct, kyrt-rider. They are not unarmed attacks. They have a special property that allows monks to use the damage unarmed attacks through them. They need to be +1 ki focus brass knuckles for them to even use Stunning Fist through them.

Benefit: Brass knuckles allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks.

By my reading, the knuckles aren't an independent weapon. They're a tool that augments your unarmed attacks.

Or, by RAW, they are a weapon with a special exception to their damage if their wielder is a monk. Also, note that it's the only exception listed. If they wanted brass knuckles to be able to use all monk special abilities, they would have stated that they count as unarmed for the purposes of all monk abilities and not just unarmed damage. If you want to rule differently in your games, you are welcome to. But, when discussing things in a gaming forum, RAW takes precedence unless you mention specific houserules in your first post.

By RAW, brass knuckles are manufactured weapons with an exception for their damage. As manufactured weapons, they do not benefit from an amulet of mighty fists.

From what I'm reading, by RAW brass knuckles are tools which have the following benefit.

Benefit: Brass knuckles allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks.

With a special note that monks do in-fact use their unarmed bonus on it, to ensure that people understood the tool does, in fact, help monks.

This is how I read it as well. FWIW I'd allow them to stack in my game the same way a bow and arrow stack (overlap, eliminating properties if it exceeds +10 total).

"Benefit: Brass knuckles allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks."

Hmm... a kick is an unarmed strike... nope; too stupid.

Isn't the standard guantlent listed under unarmed attacks on the weapon table and says it allows you to deal lethal damage as well, and thus can still use the monks stunning fist or ki strike if he so chose, or am I thinking 3.5?

Mauril wrote:

Correct, kyrt-rider. They are not unarmed attacks. They have a special property that allows monks to use the damage unarmed attacks through them. They need to be +1 ki focus brass knuckles for them to even use Stunning Fist through them.

Benefit: Brass knuckles allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks.

By my reading, the knuckles aren't an independent weapon. They're a tool that augments your unarmed attacks.

Hmm... page 142 Core Rulebook:

Page 177 APG
Simple Weapons
Unarmed Attacks
Brass Knuckles

I think that since Gauntlets, Unarmed Strikes and Brass Knuckles are all listed as "unarmed strikes", the Amulet of Mighty Fists should improve them.

It shouldn't work. For the same reason bracers of armor don't stack with magical armor when it comes to enchantments.

It shouldn't work. For the same reason bracers of armor don't stack with magical armor when it comes to enchantments.

Do they not stack? I've never seen a ruling where somebody couldn't get... for example... +X armor with whatever abilities they chose, and also get +1 bracers of armor with other abilities they desired.

The final result would use both the armor slot and the bracer slot, and the wearer would have +X armor, with the list of abilities from both the bracer and the armor. Nothing stacks, but it's an overlapping (To a maximum of +10, since Paizo made that a concrete rule with it's Paladin and Arcane Archer rulings)

I would allow it.

Jadeite wrote:

It shouldn't work. For the same reason bracers of armor don't stack with magical armor when it comes to enchantments.

Do they not stack? I've never seen a ruling where somebody couldn't get... for example... +X armor with whatever abilities they chose, and also get +1 bracers of armor with other abilities they desired.

The final result would use both the armor slot and the bracer slot, and the wearer would have +X armor, with the list of abilities from both the bracer and the armor. Nothing stacks, but it's an overlapping (To a maximum of +10, since Paizo made that a concrete rule with it's Paladin and Arcane Archer rulings)

If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Jadeite wrote:

It shouldn't work. For the same reason bracers of armor don't stack with magical armor when it comes to enchantments.

Do they not stack? I've never seen a ruling where somebody couldn't get... for example... +X armor with whatever abilities they chose, and also get +1 bracers of armor with other abilities they desired.

The final result would use both the armor slot and the bracer slot, and the wearer would have +X armor, with the list of abilities from both the bracer and the armor. Nothing stacks, but it's an overlapping (To a maximum of +10, since Paizo made that a concrete rule with it's Paladin and Arcane Archer rulings)

If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.

Could you quote that for me? Like I said, I don't remember seeing a rule that stated that different abilities wouldn't overlap (similar to the bow and arrow rules mentioned up-thread)

I can actually see both sides of the debate. However, as players would largely use it as just a simple exploit to stack properties wayyyy before wealth/level would allow you to have all of that stuff, I wouldn't allow it as it's an exploit. Just like I wouldn't allow defending armor spikes.

Maybe I'm just mean.

I can actually see both sides of the debate. However, as players would largely use it as just a simple exploit to stack properties wayyyy before wealth/level would allow you to have all of that stuff, I wouldn't allow it as it's an exploit. Just like I wouldn't allow defending armor spikes.

Maybe I'm just mean.

Well, consider that many people (myself included) think the 'guided weapon property' actually should have been part of the monk class for free, and that any abilities beyond that first one cost a lot (and the use of this exploit costs the player his ability to use an Amulet of natural armor)

Brass knuckles are an 'unarmed attack' by RAW. As has been mentioned above, they're in the weapons table under gauntlet and unarmed strike, in the category of unarmed attacks. Nevertheless, I don't think enhancements do or should stack, because the alternative is a monk potentially walking around with two +15 equivalent fists.

I would allow a monk to get the +1 attack bonus from masterwork brass knuckles while keeping the enchantments on his amulet of mighty fists, but I don't know why anyone would want to do that given the fact that it would be really dumb.

Brass knuckles are an 'unarmed attack' by RAW. As has been mentioned above, they're in the weapons table under gauntlet and unarmed strike, in the category of unarmed attacks. Nevertheless, I don't think enhancements do or should stack, because the alternative is a monk potentially walking around with two +15 equivalent fists.

Just use the rule that you can't apply more than +10 total effective enhancements.

Done and doner :)

Mergy wrote:

Brass knuckles are an 'unarmed attack' by RAW. As has been mentioned above, they're in the weapons table under gauntlet and unarmed strike, in the category of unarmed attacks. Nevertheless, I don't think enhancements do or should stack, because the alternative is a monk potentially walking around with two +15 equivalent fists.

Just use the rule that you can't apply more than +10 total effective enhancements.

Done and doner :)

Monk gives up amulet slot to get two cheaper weapons versus one incredibly expensive one? An interesting idea.

This is how I read it as well. FWIW I'd allow them to stack in my game the same way a bow and arrow stack (overlap, eliminating properties if it exceeds +10 total).

So, I'm thinking that this right there wins!

Honestly, if it's only the stacking of similar properties - the debate is over (and kyrt wins).

If there's a rule somewhere that prevents items to even function (I know about the "only the strongest one applies" in the case of similar bonuses, but I've NEVER come across anything about full on "cease function" of an item - just that the similar effects will NOT stack - only be over-ridden by the most powerful effect regarding the overlap ability in question).

I'm really interested in seeing if there's a quote that supports that idea of item neutralization as it's fully new info to me if that's the case. I'm down w/the whole overpower/similar items NOT stacking. But to shut an item off because of 1 similar effect? WTF???

I definitely understand where you're coming from Kurt, because the 'Benefit' line DOES read as if it's simply modifying UAS, even though other details could be read as being a weapon in it's own right. But your point:

By my reading, the knuckles aren't an independent weapon. They're a tool that augments your unarmed attacks.

...makes me think, shouldn't you then NOT be able to put weapon enhancements on them, as they are just an 'augmentor' to UAS ala a weapon cord, and not a weapon in their own right? You could still have special material Knuckles, and your UAS would accordingly benefit, but the 'spreading enhancements over multiple bases for cost exploitation' aspect disappears. That could well be the RAI IMHO.

I *DO* suggest everybody flag the top post as FAQ material, because I don't think it will be settled until Paizo weighs in here. It does seem liable for Errata, because the Benefit line is pretty much in conflict with how the rest of the information is presented.

Fortunately, even if 'stacking' Knuckles/AofMightyFist doesn't work, I think simply having access to the Guided Weapon Property itself is more than enough of a boost for Monks... In fact, is it PFS legal? (I don't think so) It's also an obvious optimization go-to for Clerics and Druids...

Seriously, the Guided Weapon property let's Monks focus 90% on 1 Stat for to-hit, damage, stunning fist DC, touch AC, will saves, and perception (etc). Fighter's don't get that. And personally, especially how often AC is panned as weak-sauce by mid-levels, I'm OK if the Monk just DOESN'T compete with Fighters at to-hit, because Stunning Fist is so awesome and focusing on WIS (with secondary investment in STR for DMG and CMD, tertiary in CON and then some DEX for AoO's, Init and more AC/CMD) is just clearly opening the way for massive optimization (you just have to get thru the first couple levels before you can afford a +1 amulet). Stunning Fist DCs go thru the roof when you assume access to this, without negatively effecting much else besides direct damage, which the Monk was not going to 'win' anyways.

They don't really need a parallel way to double dip on enhancement bonus/qualities spread over two 'bases' for serious cash savings. Fundamentally, I just don't see why such a mechanism to bypass enhancement bonus pricing would be 'stealth' introduced via an item like this, with no mention at all in the text of such a novel set-up. If the text goes out of it's way to mention Monk UAS damage applying (which isn't necessary to mention if the item is truly only modifying UAS), why wouldn't it mention the equally if not MORE important feature to Monks, the interaction with Amulet of Might Fist?

Ultimately, I see the Brass Knuckles as an aid to non-Monks using UAS, and for Monks a convenient way to get earlier/cheaper access to "magic weapons" (though the pricing for AoMF is not bad compared to 2 separate weapons*), along with direct access to special materials like Silver/ColdIron/Adamantine. Given that it's always available without drawing and immediately switchable, even within a Flurry, it's a pretty convenient option for a 'secondary enhancement load-out', e.g. with enhancements like Bane or Ghost Touch that one doesn't benefit from all the time, but are situationally useful.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

* If this thread is going to get any Paizo attention, I thought it's also worthwhile clarifying the "# of weapons while Flurrying" question. There's a meme going around that by a very strict reading of the text, one can effect the full number of Flurry attacks (e.g. as if 2WF'ing) while only needing one weapon, whether 1 Temple Sword or 1 Brass Knuckle only. I'm personally pretty sure that that doesn't correspond to Paizo's intent (which I believe is just the idea that both 'hands' of the Monk's "2WF Flurry" can be made by ANY available attack mode, but not the SAME attack mode - UAS obviously always able to 'fill in' for a 'hand' even if actual hands are full with items). Clarification would be nice. I believe, their's one (or several) threads dedicated to that, though it doesn't seem like many people are flagging the issue for a FAQ.

Ringtail wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Jadeite wrote:

It shouldn't work. For the same reason bracers of armor don't stack with magical armor when it comes to enchantments.

Do they not stack? I've never seen a ruling where somebody couldn't get... for example... +X armor with whatever abilities they chose, and also get +1 bracers of armor with other abilities they desired.

The final result would use both the armor slot and the bracer slot, and the wearer would have +X armor, with the list of abilities from both the bracer and the armor. Nothing stacks, but it's an overlapping (To a maximum of +10, since Paizo made that a concrete rule with it's Paladin and Arcane Archer rulings)

If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning.

Could you quote that for me? Like I said, I don't remember seeing a rule that stated that different abilities wouldn't overlap (similar to the bow and arrow rules mentioned up-thread)

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/wondrousItems.html

There's one difference between magic arrows and an amulet of mighty fists or bracers of armor: enchanted arrows need a +1 enhancement bonus to gain enchantments. Thus you'll always have a enhancement bonus redundance. They are also single use. Amulets and bracers don't have this restrictions.

Way easier to get a Barkskin or something from a teammate than it is to get all the buffs to your attacks you could by stacking weapons enhancements like that. It totally circumvents expected wealth and would have a fairly dramatic increase in power for the class.

What's next, an amulet, brass knuckles on one hand, a gauntlet on the other, and steel toed boots as well?

In addition, in the real play setting you are talking about a monk who has a team mate with GMW, so he might actually have +9 worth of abilities on his unarmed attacks by a fairly low level.

Flurrying (wisdom based) with an additional 5d6 (elemental enhancements) to each attack as well as other enhancements fairly early on (relatively compared to what it would take other characters to get +9 worth of weapon enhancements) sounds pretty exploitative to me, but, as I said earlier, maybe I'm just mean : )

Brass Knuckles: "These weapons are designed to fit comfortably around the knuckles, narrowing the contact area and therefore magnifying the amount of force delivered by a punch."
I thought that description is also relevant here... As in you're not making contact with the same surfaces, but with a narrow area of metal that only by specific text has the same damage as Monk UAS.

-------------------------------------

@Kyrt: Obviously you're opinion is influenced by your general thoughts on the Monk, e.g. you think Monks should get the Guided property for free/built in to the class... But thanks for recognizing this as an 'exploit', which I'm also pretty sure is what it is, at least until Errata'd.

Again, I think that simply having the Guided property itself available is a huge boon even when paid for normally and without cost exploitation... What other +1 bonus is as good, really? I'm pretty sure you're well aware of the benefits of being able to focus on 1 single stat much more than any normal Martial class, while simultaneously applying to Stunning Fist and Spell DC's (for Clerics/Druids), e.g. no compromise between hyper-combat optimization (at least for monk who gets WIS to AC) and Stunning Fist/Spell optimization for +1 enhancement bonus. Obviously, it's not making the Monk compete 1:1 with Martial Types, but +att and +dmg while maximizing Stunning Fist DC, AC, Will Saves seems like quite a combo to me, even if it still doesn't out hit or damage fighters when compared on paper.

I also don't think the Amulet pricing is as bad as you make out, compared to 2 separate 2WF weapons (e.g. Brass Knuckles), though the '1 Weapon Flurry' theory is obviously relevant there. I think that Brass Knuckles being able to easily add special materials to UAS, in combo with being able to use Hand Wraps as an alternate weapon (with alternate enhancement load-out) more than makes up for the down-sides of UAS.

Anyhow, hopefully somebody at Paizo chimes in on this...

There's one difference between magic arrows and an amulet of mighty fists or bracers of armor: enchanted arrows need a +1 enhancement bonus to gain enchantments. Thus you'll always have a enhancement bonus redundance. They are also single use. Amulets and bracers don't have this restrictions.

Pg 496 Core Rulebook

Amulet of Mighty Fists
"...an Amulet of Mighty Fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability equivalents) higher than +5. An Amulet of Mighty Fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability."

I would guess the reason they dont have that restriction is the fact you can only goto +5 in total bonuses on an Amulet of Mighty Fists (which is why they kinda suck compared to actual weapons, which can get up to +10).

I think the best answer is just to leave it up to the GM to keep an eye on things and dont let it be abused.

Hand Wraps? I haven't seen those yet, could you expound on them for me Quandary?

In the mean time, since many people are concerned about balance issues, I'm going to write up a two weapon fighter to compare to the monk using this exploit, at levels 5, 10, and 15, using twenty point buy, and see how this compares.

Just looked at the cost of Amulet of Mighty Fists and I don't have such an issue with it at this point as +5 amulet and a +5 weapon are fairly close to a +10 weapon. I thought Amulet was cheaper. That said, because it doesn't need the enhancement bonus a Amulet of Mighty Strikes with the Guided property is available real early on. I don't mind that as much, but it is worth noting.

Just looked at the cost of Amulet of Mighty Fists and I don't have such an issue with it at this point as +5 amulet and a +5 weapon are fairly close to a +10 weapon. I thought Amulet was cheaper. That said, because it doesn't need the enhancement bonus a Amulet of Mighty Strikes with the Guided property is available real early on. I don't mind that as much, but it is worth noting.

Early access is a good thing when it's such a big change to the character's style. This thing is available at 5th level at the earliest (due to the 1/2 wealth rule) which is still kind of late. Nobody ever waits until 5th level to buy weapon finesse if that's how their character is built.

@Kurt: I think some wires crossed when I mentiond hand wraps.
They are another method of modifying UAS, I forget in which book.

I think just comparing costs between splitting enhancement costs vs. not splitting enhancement costs would be more valuable than a comparison between two characters of different classes, which would be diverting the issue to your problem with the Monk class. After all, the 2WF Fighter (or Free Hand Fighter/Duelist) can also get Guided Enhancements and focus on WIS/ only take 13 STR (for less benefit that Monks/Druids/Clerics, but Will Saves and Perception IS nice). The only down-side is that unless you're a Monk with WIS to AC and CMD, your CMD would appear to go way down - though Monk1/multiclass Guided Amulet builds would work well.

Sylvanite apparently already did this, but it looks like he's comparing 1 weapon to 1 amulet and *1* weapon, i.e. depending on '1 Weapon Flurry' (which I'm personally dubious of). I'd be interested to see 2 Weapons cost-compared vs. 2 Weapon + Amulet, and compared at a range of total enhancement values, e.g. +2 total, +5 total, +10 total.

@Kurt: I think some wires crossed when I mentiond hand wraps.

They are another method of modifying UAS, I forget in which book.

I think just comparing costs between splitting enhancement costs vs. not splitting enhancement costs would be more valuable than a comparison between two characters of different classes, which would be diverting the issue to your problem with the Monk class. After all, the 2WF Fighter (or Free Hand Fighter/Duelist) can also get Guided Enhancements and focus on WIS/ only take 13 STR (for less benefit that Monks/Druids/Clerics, but Will Saves and Perception IS nice). The only down-side (which applies to Monks as well) is that apparently your CMD would go way down, since Guided doesn't apply WIS to CMD (ouch).

Sylvanite apparently already did this, but it looks like he's comparing 1 weapon to 1 amulet and *1* weapon, i.e. depending on '1 Weapon Flurry'. I'd be interested to see 2 Weapons cost-compared vs. 2 Weapon + Amulet, and compared at a range of total enhancement values, e.g. +2 total, +5 total, +10 total.

Simple: They get a slight discount at the cost of an item slot.

+10 equivalent (5 on each):
1-weapon + amulet is 175k to hit +10 equivalent, versus 200k normally.
2-weapon + amulet is 225k to hit 2x +10 equivalent, versus 400k normally. Big discount here, but those "weapons" must be unarmed strikes with brass knuckles, which is a suboptimal starting point to begin with.

+2 equivalent:
1 weapon + amulet is 7k versus 9k normally
2-weapon + amulet is 10k versus 18k normally

+5 equivalent (3 from weapon, 2 from ammy):
1-weapon + amulet is 38k, normally 50k
2-weapon + amulet is 46k, normally 100k

+5 equivalent (2 from weapon, 3 from ammy):
1-weapon + amulet is 53k, normally 50k (oops!)
2-weapon + amulet is 61k, normally 100k

I'm still going to make that comparison chart Quandary, but it will take time. By all means feel free to compare them. (I am going to assume flurry only requires one brass knuckle, it would be awkward for a monk to need two Kamas to make a flurry attack in which all attacks are slashing.)

EDIT: wow, stabbitty doom totally ninja'd my suggestion to make such a chart. I guess that's where he gets his name lol.

Ok, so the quotes re: Bracers and Armor are exactly what was stated above by the poster that pointed it out. However, that's specifically an Armor/Bracer interaction and has no bearing on Weapon/Amulet interactions.

The most appropriate Weapon-based thing seems to be the bow/arrow issue. True, it's "ammunition" and will be expended, so maybe that's a factor in allowing it in the first place - not sure, though.

Still, If you have a weapon of say a +4 overall total, and someone casts Greater Magic Weapon on you and changes it from a +1 (and 3 more features) to a +4 functioning weapon for it's ENHANCEMENT bonus, I'm pretty sure the other 3 features of the weapon do not disappear - ONLY the enhancement bonus is over-ridden for the duration of the spell.

In other words, your Sword of X, Y, and Z +1 doesn't stop being a sword of x, y, and z while that greater Enhancement bonus is taking effect - it's just taking effect and over riding the EB part of the weapon, and THAT'S it ...

To me, it seems similar. If you locate x, y, or z in the Amulet (modifying all unarmed stuff), and then you have a tool that further modifies or utilizes an enhancement bonus (ie: Brass Knuckles) for that same method of attack, these things should not fundamentally be prevented from interacting with each other - they're affecting different enchantment areas - clearly. The bonus types and stacking rules are all pretty clear, so why would 2 items taking space of 2 locations (at least) not allowed to function in tandem with each other when they share NO common enchantments? (ie: "common" defined as existing and clearly spelled out types of bonuses such as luck, moral, enhancement, etc, etc).

I mean, it just doesn't make sense.

@StabbityDoom: I was assuming 2WF Fighters would want dual Guided Kukris or Scimitars or whatever, not Brass Knuckles.

If I wasn't clear enough in my last post, I personally am in doubt of the interpretation that one can Flurry with only 1 weapon.
I'm not aware of any confirmation from Paizo one way or the other on the issue, though I've requested such feedbacj several times.
I'm well aware that one can make the case for your interpretation, but I feel it's equally or more reasonable that the RAI is such that the Monk is meant to be making main and off-hand attacks with separate weapons (while not worrying about normal mechanics of off-hands). Hopefully Paizo clarification will come.

Your numbers clearly show how big a deal this is if Flurry requires 2 separate weapons.
I think people who play Monks and Druids (single stat optimizing Stun DC + AC/Spell DCs alongside to-hit and dmg and Will Saves via Guided) are happy enough attacking with their UAS (delivering Stuns and other special Feats) or Natural Attack routines, even if they don't have the base damage/crit range of other weapons.

@StabbityDoom: I was assuming 2WF Fighters would want dual Guided Kukris or Scimitars or whatever, not Brass Knuckles.

Invalid. The amulet of mighty fists only functions for unarmed strikes.

EDIT: To clarify, the cost analysis is only valid for the case of unarmed strikes. You can compare that to the cost of dual kukris if you like, but that would be no different than the dual +10 brass knuckles price. Also, those kukris would be way better than the knuckles due to higher critical range.

Early access is a good thing when it's such a big change to the character's style. This thing is available at 5th level at the earliest (due to the 1/2 wealth rule) which is still kind of late. Nobody ever waits until 5th level to buy weapon finesse if that's how their character is built.

Can someone please enlighten me as to what is meant by the 1/2 wealth rule? It sounds like it impacts on your choice of magic items at low-mid levels.

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Early access is a good thing when it's such a big change to the character's style. This thing is available at 5th level at the earliest (due to the 1/2 wealth rule) which is still kind of late. Nobody ever waits until 5th level to buy weapon finesse if that's how their character is built.

Can someone please enlighten me as to what is meant by the 1/2 wealth rule? It sounds like it impacts on your choice of magic items at low-mid levels.

It's the (unofficial) rule of thumb that says never to have more than one half of your wealth in one item.

c873788 wrote:

kyrt-ryder wrote:

Early access is a good thing when it's such a big change to the character's style. This thing is available at 5th level at the earliest (due to the 1/2 wealth rule) which is still kind of late. Nobody ever waits until 5th level to buy weapon finesse if that's how their character is built.

Can someone please enlighten me as to what is meant by the 1/2 wealth rule? It sounds like it impacts on your choice of magic items at low-mid levels.

It's the (unofficial) rule of thumb that says never to have more than one half of your wealth in one item.

It's a way of avoiding characters being overshadowed by their items, and to prevent powergaming the wealth when starting above level one.

It's also primarily only used with spending wealth while starting at levels above one. I doubt anybody really cares that much if you save up and commit 3/4ths or whatever of your wealth on one big item in play.

community feels as a whole.

Tip my hat in the "Brass Knuckles are not Unarmed Strikes but melee weapons that deal your Unarmed Strike damage" hat.

In other words these do not work together:
Amulet of Mighty Fists Guided
+1 Brass Knuckles
A monk would use WIS for Unarmed Strike attacks without +1/+1 atk/dmg and would use STR for Brass Knuckles dealing Unarmed Strike attacks with +1/+1 atk/dmg.
Weapon Focus Unarmed Strikes only helps unarmed and not Brass Knuckles attacks.

APG p176:
"Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their monk unarmed damage when fighting with them."

You are fighting with Brass Knuckles, not Unarmed Strikes. Nothing at all in the game that benefits Unarmed Strikes will help a Brass Knuckle attack unless it increases the die size.

You are fighting with Brass Knuckles, not Unarmed Strikes. Nothing at all in the game that benefits Unarmed Strikes will help a Brass Knuckle attack unless it increases the die size.

Um, has anyone actually considered how brass knuckles are used? Let me spell it out, they are ringed sheathes that cover your finger joints in order to deliver a more damaging PUNCH.

And a punch is a form of unarmed strike. If your accuracy is so bad that you cannot hit the side of a barn with a punch, then you aren't going to hit it with a brass knuckle either. Anything that improves your punching accuracy will, in common sense and combat experience and implied in the rules, improve your brass knuckle delivery.

In kyrt's case, the Guided Amulet of Mighty Fists confers the property of letting intuition guide your blows. Mechanically, Wisdom substitutes for Strength as the relevant melee ability score. Btw, Strength benefits unarmed strikes EXACTLY like it benefits brass knuckle strikes.

Saying that the Guided property cannot apply to the unarmed strike subcategory of brass knuckles is like saying that a Strength-enhancing item shouldn't be factored in either. The Guided property is, no pun, the guidance system for the missile that is the brass knuckle punch. It replaces the brute-force Strength mechanic that has been with us since 1e D&D.

Let's take a step back from the strict line that a 'weapon is a weapon' and an 'unarmed strike is an unarmed strike' and never the twain shall meet, because the fact is that monk UASs are actually hybrids within the rules. They are 'armed' unarmed strikes, i.e. an exception to the non-lethality of unarmed strikes.

Now, let's note that brass knuckles are listed under the 'Unarmed Attacks' section of the rules [http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons]. They offer a way to make non-monk unarmed strikes lethal.

Benefit: Brass knuckles allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks.

In short, Guided Amulet alters the relevant combat ability, and brass knuckles alter the lethality. Both brass knuckles and the Amulet modify unarmed attacks with overlapping, non-conflicting effects. They are not, as Speaker in Dreams said, both trying to mack on the same quality.

Now, why would the designers bother to put in the lines about monk usage if they didn't intend to imply other applications for monks? My common sense is that they offer monks a way to 'mineralize' (cold iron, etc.) or enchant their unarmed strikes. Monks face a real problem in effectively delivering good attacks versus creatures with DR and resistance. Magic, lawful, and adamantine ki fist leaves a whole bunch of outsider monsters unscathed. Using a pimped out magic kama against a Balor is little good.

I think its in the spirit of the rules to see brass knuckles as a weapon-based augmentation of unarmed strikes.

Whether its balanced or not is a related question, but the rules do cap bonuses at +10. But I can see how the confusion has arisen from the fact that the rules/concept of unarmed fighting throws previously neat areas of the rules into question.

The fact that brass knuckles exist alongside the Amulet of Mighty Fists suggests that the designers realised that monks would benefit from more unarmed strike buffs. There's no reason for a monk to touch a vanilla brass knuckle, but plenty as an augment for UAS.

However, given that we are dealing with a fairly 'high' fantasy game here, I do think it is a failure of design to have to have martial artists resort to the street thug's weapon of brass knuckles in order to keep up with the Joneses. When you have ki-based augmentation of UAS properties already, expanding them to emulate cold iron etc. should have made it into the Core Rules since there was already something similar in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting's Secret of Steel-Shattering Spirit Feat. But that feat needs major fixing for use with PFRPG.

The higher-level monk needs some fixing to keep it fluff-friendly. I mean, if an 18th-level monk wades into the Abyss and can't rely on unarmed attacks for want of damage-reduction...? Doesn't feel very heroic. Even Buffy tarred demons barefisted in the Hellmouth.

The reason the designers included it was so that monks had a way to utilize their unarmed damage progression while still wielding an enhance-able weapon. It's the same as the Zen Archer monk being able to use the unarmed strike progression on their bows. They don't get to use Stunning Fist or the like through them out of the box. They have to pay for the +1 ability Ki Focus to do that. The same is true of Brass Knuckles. They are a weapon, separate from unarmed strikes, but use some (I repeat, some, not all) of the features of unarmed strikes.

They don't get to use Stunning Fist or the like through them out of the box. They have to pay for the +1 ability Ki Focus to do that. The same is true of Brass Knuckles. They are a weapon, separate from unarmed strikes, but use some (I repeat, some, not all) of the features of unarmed strikes.

I agree. Either ki focus or ki diversity (spend 1 ki to imbue weapon with ki focus) should be used to channel stunning fist, etc.

RL example: Speaking as a former martial artist, I would say that using brass knuckles wouldn't affect my straight punching technique, but it would hamper delivery of various blows often used to interrupt an opponent's breathing, etc. (i.e. stun), or else I would need further training in stunning rather than mauling with brass knuckles.

Although ki diversity isn't a core feat, I think it should be a candidate for core, especially since it makes ki points so much more useful by allowing limited purchase of temporary exceptions to monk limitations. [http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ki-diversity-combat-faction]