So if I apply Intensify Spell, Empower Spell and Spell Perfection to a spell, in what order do you apply the modifiers to the numeric effects?
Example, a Caster level 20 Fireball:
Empowered, Intensified, Perfection:
10d6 + 50% = 15d6; + 5d6 = 20d6; * 2 = 40d6
Intensified, Empowered, Perfection:
10d6 + 5d6 = 15d6; + 50% = 22.5d6; * 2 = 45d6
or
10d6 + 5d6 = 15d6; + 50% = 22d6; * 2 = 44d6
Perfection, Empowered, Intensified:
10d6 * 2 = 20d6; + 50% = 30d6; + 5d6 = 35d6
Intensified-Perfection, then Empowered-Perfection:
10d6 + (5d6 * 2) = 20d6; + (50% * 2) = 40d6
Empowered-Perfection, then Intensified-Perfection:
10d6 + (50% * 2) = 20d6; + (5d6 * 2) = 30d6
There are other scenarios, but this makes the point. Or perhaps I've misunderstood altogether.
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Empower and Intensify don't apply a set numerical bonus to the spell - look at the examples. They are all things which give +1 or +2 to hit or to the save DC.
As to which is first, Intensify or Empower, that's a little more up in the air. I'd be inclined to generalize the rule about Empower and Maximize, so Empower would only work on the original spell cap, and then Intensify would add five levels to it.
So you'd get:
10d6*1.5 +5d6.
The boosts from Spell Perfection are all non-optional, they are static bonuses that always apply.
The metamagic feats you are talking about are completely optional, not fixed. That's the difference.
There is no limiting language for stacking intensify and empower, like there is for stacking maximize and empower (which specifically BREAK stacking rules).
Thus, you stack them in whatever order you like.
So you'd Intensify the spell first, increasing the damage cap, and then Empower the resulting spell. WIth spell perfection and magical lineage, a level 3 spell dealing 22.5 d6 of damage.
At level 15, that's not overpowered, and won't even kill a single CR 15 creature in the beastiary. It also makes level 3 spell slots not totally suck at that level.
==Aelryinth
Empower and Intensify don't apply a set numerical bonus to the spell
OK.
...the rule about Empower and Maximize...
What is this rule of which thou speakest?
So how about another scenario...
Augmented, Superior, Empowered, Maximized-Perfection, Summon Monster IV-to summon 1d3 Leopards from the 3rd-level summon monster list.
Augmented-Perfection plus Empowered:
+4 Str&Con * 2 = +8 Str&Con; + 50% = +12 Str&Con
Superior-Perfection plus Empowered:
+1 creature * 2 = +2 creatures; + 50% = +3 creatures
Lower level list numeric effect Perfection, and Empowered:
1d3 * 2 = 2d3; + 50% = 3d3
So if I Maximize the die roll for summoning from a lower level list I can summon:
3d3 + 3 = 12 Leopards, each with +12 Str & Con
Is that right?
Caster's choice. Intensify -> Empower yields the best results, at 15D6*1.5
Good luck getting a GM to agree that Intensify/Empower are doubled by Spell Perfection though. By definition they aren't "set numerical bonuses", as they can change.
Okay, so bag intensify since "You must actually have sufficient caster levels to surpass the maximum in order to benefit from this feat."
Let's take a Spell Perfection:Fireball and Empower it:
10d6 * 2 = 20d6; + 50% = 30d6
or
10d6 + 50% = 15d6; * 2 = 30d6
Is that right?
With Maximize you'd end up with 6 leopards.
With Empower, you'd get +1d3 leopards.
Augmented applies to the summoned monsters, not to the spell. As a secondary effect, it's probably not Perfected. Ask your DM. But I'd rule no, in the same way that Maximize doesn't max out their variable hit points.
Superior is a fixed bonus to the spell, so you'd get +2 Monsters at the end of the spell from Perfection, and Empower wouldn't affect it. The language says 'when you summon', not 'increase the base number of creatures summoned by", so it always comes at the end.
However, this has all to fit into a 9th level spell. Max+Empower is already +5 levels, so you could only do this on a 4th level spell or less.
So, you'd end up with:
6 Leopards from Maximizing the variable amount, +1d3 from Empower, +2 from Perfected Superior summons, and they'd all be normally Augmented with +4 Str and Con. They MIGHT be +8 Str and Con, but that's not my call. So, 9-11 buff leopards from an IV slot...not a bad use of a 4th level spell.
And you could only do this with a 4th level or lower spell. You'd be doing it with Summon Monster IV, grabbing monsters from the III list, as you displayed.
==Aelryinth
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Ok, in your new scenarios. I can see the argument that Spell Perfection could apply to the Augment Summoning bonuses - that's clever.
But Empower does nothing to those because they are not random, variable parts of the spell.
And Maximize and Empower explicitly do not stack(read the feats).
So you get a base amount of d3 leopards, +2 because of Spell Perfection and Superior Summons. Maximize gives you a result of 5 leopards, plus 1/2 of (d3+2) from Empower. So 6 or 7 leopards depending on your d3 roll. Each would have +8 Str/Con.
In no way does Spell Perfection double the damage from a damage spell. If by some craziness you had Weapon Specialization(ray) Spell Perfection would double the +2 from that feat to a +4, but it does nothing to any damage dice you roll.
Number of creatures is a variable of the spell, and would get maximized. So he automatically has 6.
Superior summoning doesn't modify the die. It adds to the end result. it's fixed and applies to all summon spells, so it'd get doubled. So, he's got 8.
He's got 2d3 creatures, +50%, from empower. So, basically plus 1d3 at the end.
Augment is on the creatures, not the spell, and Perfect won't affect it.
==Aelryinth
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Number of creatures is a variable of the spell, and would get maximized. So he automatically has 6.
Superior summoning doesn't modify the die. It adds to the end result. it's fixed and applies to all summon spells, so it'd get doubled. So, he's got 8.
He's got 2d3 creatures, +50%, from empower. So, basically plus 1d3 at the end.
Augment is on the creatures, not the spell, and Perfect won't affect it.
==Aelryinth
He's only got 1d3 creatures - he's applying the Spell Perfection bonus to his number of creatures illegally.
BTW, here's the rules quote about Empower and Maximize:
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result.
Whoops, you are correct. I was reading it as two levels down, my apologies.
My error.
So, Maximize for 3, Perfect Superior for +2, Empower for +1 (d3 50%, min 1, will always be 1) = 6 leopards. With +4 Str/Con each.
Since the leopards hit points aren't maximized, neither is the Str/Con bonus doubled. Meta feats don't apply to the creatures, just the spell itself.
Which isn't bad for a level 4 spell. Not what I'd Perfect, but if you like lots of kitties...
==Aelryinth
Agreed, but if he wants to take it at level 15 he's only got access to Summon VII at that point. If the DM allows retraining, or he delays until level 19...
==Aelryinth
Also, spell perfection doubles augment summoning bonuses...
as we covered above, this is unlikely.
Augment Summoning does not affect the spell, it affects the results of the spell...a step removed.
In the same way that the hit points of Summoned Monsters are not Maximized, because they are the end result of the spell, not the spell itself, their stats would not be augmented.
The number of minions would be maximized...that's part of the spell.
==Aelryinth
Thanks for the help folks, I understand these feats a lot better now.